OSAS and "Never saved in the first place" Refuted

BLC · Apr 19, 2009

MahoganySnail,

What you have never understood is God's divine imputations. You don't understand the justice of God and how it relates to the sacrifice of Christ. When God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing their sins and trespasses unto them. That is the justice of God at work. All our sins were imputed to Christ and He bore those on the cross and was judged for them. All ours sins have been judged and put away through Christ. Do you not believe that? If they were judged again that would double jeapordy. The judgment of our sins was once and for all. Do you believe that? All our sins and trespasses were laid upon Christ and as our advocate when we sin, He speaks on our behalf and says to God the Father, I paid for that sin and it can not be judged again and you can't judge the one who sinned because I was judged in their place. That is the justice of God and he has to honor what the Son has done on behalf of the sinner. You may not like that but do you believe that? If you think that God is soft on sin, just look at what Christ went through to get to that cross and take our place. You need to read (Isaiah 53);

1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Do you think that the Son of God is going to go through all that and provide man with anything less than eternal redemption based on what Christ did for sinful men and to satisfy His Father? Shame on you for reducing God's perfect sacrifice , who obtained eternal redemption for sinful men. This is grace that God provided for man and to men, that they might be saved, but with your doctrine you have done despite to that Spirit of grace. You are coming very close to trampling the blood of Christ that revealed the justice of God that was satisfied by the Son, who took away the sin of the world. Our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son through the body that was broken and through the communion of the blood of Christ of the new covenant. If you want to eat and drink worthily, then you better repent of your doctrine and stop propagating it to others. You are wrong, you are off and you are in error. You have no fellowship with those that belong to God through the blood of Christ. The justice of God always comes before the love of God.

MahogonySnail · Apr 19, 2009

BLC if you can't give a good answer to my questions, but only respond with doubts and attacks on my personal walk with Christ, then I'm afraid you are just not interested in seeking the truth.

Please answer this simple question:

OSAS believers, do you think that death of the soul as a result of a believer erring, results in them going to heaven?

or this one:

Do you think that a christian is going to heaven even if God doesn't forgive their sins? (ie due to unforgiveness)?

I know what the book of Revelation says or don't you have that in your bible? There Jesus has a few words to say about the various churches, some praise, and some condemnation. Then there is the description of Judgement in Revelations. The idea of judgement is throughout the whole new testament and old testament. Of course Christ paid for all sin but that doesn't mean there is no judgement, that doesn't mean you can sin and do what you like. It doesn't mean we go straight to heaven and bypass any kind of judgement.

How can I repent of teaching a doctrine which the bible teaches? Or rather, refuting your doctrine which a few in this forum seem so readily to beat others over the head with (RoaringKitten and others, perhaps even yourself) as if it's the only and right interpretation of the Scriptures . And worse, claim that those who don't follow their doctrine are in danger of hellfire, or doubt the salvation of those who don't ascribe to OSAS, or make false accusations about non-OSAS believers , believing in works.
I'm not reducing anything. You unfortunately are ignoring and reducing the importance of man's disobedience. It's a two-way relationship. Your comments about no fellowship with those that belong to God through the blood of Christ..Wow the one who says we aren't judged by God is so quick to judge my heart aren't you?

Sorry mate, you were the one in previous discussions talking about how our sin is no longer a problem or something like that. Then your doctrine was shown to be unscriptural. Your words here are spiteful, unfounded, and hypocritical, you have nothing on me. I'm the one quoting scriptures which you obviously can't address because you ignore them.

MahogonySnail · Apr 19, 2009

should have said, "man's obedience", not disobedience lol. Disobedience is only important for your doctrine, which says that a bad person is taken home to heaven early, or something silly like that.

MahogonySnail · Apr 19, 2009

For the faithful , of course. For the unfaithful... well according to you, unfaithful people get to go to heaven early for a happy time in heaven. I believe, that unfaithful are in danger ,
as Jesus said in the parable of the faithless servants. Hey, at least I have good verses to back my views up.

Thaddaeus · Apr 19, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Can anyone respond to the verses in James which I posted about the death of the soul?

OSAS believers, do you think that death of the soul as a result of a believer erring, results in them going to heaven?

You'd have to try and explain how a dead soul can make it to heaven?

quote]

we were all dead in our sins and Jesus took care of it and it is Jesus thats keeps me save, you believe what you want

MahogonySnail · Apr 19, 2009

So what happens Thaddaeus if one day you hold unforgiveness in your heart? The bible says if we don't forgive others, God won't forgive us. What then? Did God lie, or not really mean that he wouldn't forgive us? Did God only mean this applied to non-Christians?

The funny thing is no OSAS believer yet has actually properly answered the questions I'm asking. If you want to say you can hold unforgiveness until death and still make it to heaven because you believe in Christ, then say so. There's no shame in that.

Mango_Nugget · Apr 20, 2009

Once again MahogonySnail, I urge you to re-read my post earlier on this. I will write this here in PLAIN words:

Christ was, is, and always will be perfect as He is the Son of God. To say that His sacrifice for us was not good enough that we could ever lose our salvation in Him, is to say that His work wasn't good enough even though it was perfect. In which case, if His work of salvation wasn't good enough to keep us, then it was never good enough to save us in the first place, and we are then all doomed! Since God is perfect, then our salvation is secure.

For the believer who does not forgive, it isn't a matter of losing his or her salvation as that is impossible, but rather, that the believer's prayers will go "unheard" and/or that God will chastise (correct) that believer.

IF the word of God is not taken as being inerrant, then we call God a liar - a very dangerous place to be! God's Word says that once a person is saved, they are always saved! This is purely because of the FINISHED work of the Lord Jesus Christ (God Himself!) in His death, burial, and resurrection!

The judgement you speak of in Revelation (20:11-15), there are two judgements. One is for the non-believer, where Christ Himself judges - and the non-believer is cast (thrown) into the Lake of Fire for the rejection of His finished work! (Those that don't have their names written in the book of life: Revelations 20:15) This is the second death. However, the other judgement does not speak of being cast into the Lake of Fire, but a judgement of works.
If you want to say that a man can lose his salvation, have a read through Ephesians 4, chiefly, from verse 30 (which says):

(Ephesians 4:30-32)
"And grieve not the holy spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (31) Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put awayfrom you, with all malice: (32) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

God's word is clear, true, whole and perfect! These verses clearly show that we have been forgiven, not for our own sake, but for Christ's sake. This means that even though a Christian may not forgive as they were commanded of Christ to do, they are still forgiven of God.

I would suggest to anyone that tries to say that a man can lose their salvation over anything, to seriously have a look at verses in context, and that they have truly accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour.

This isn't a go at anyone.

MahogonySnail · Apr 20, 2009

Why isn't Christ's perfect work good enough to stop christians sinning , period? I mean Christians still sin after salvation, why? Does that mean Christ cannot save Christians from their sins? Nope. It means we have free choice to make decisions. And if we have choice to make decisions, we have choice to make wrong decisions. Yet OSAS teaches that despite a life of wrong decisions and faithlessness, they stil are rewarded with heaven anyway.

Congratulations! you get the prize for the first one to answer my question with a straight answer. OK so are there any scriptures to support the idea that believer's prayers go unheard, or that God will chastise (correct) that believer rather than forbid them entrance to heaven? And who is to say that the chastisement does not involve being thrown into outer darkness?

Where is this verse that says once a person is saved, they are always saved? And why doesn't your doctrine of OSAS apply to Judas Iscariot? Afterall he was chosen by Christ, believed in Christ, displayed the miracles of Christ, called a friend by Christ, was considered one of the 12 , so much so that in Acts the apostles needed to choose someone else to replace his position amongst the apostles. But we all know what happened to him. Denied Christ. And scriptures say if we deny Christ he will deny us. Or do you believe Judas went to heaven?

And what if those works are really bad works? Christ gave us the answer here:
Mat 24:48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My Lord delays His coming,
Mat 24:49 and shall begin to strike his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken,
Mat 24:50 the Lord of that servant shall come in a day when he does not look for Him, and in an hour which he does not know.
Mat 24:51 And He shall cut him apart and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Note, the evil servant calls him "My Lord". This is a believer. This believer thinks evil in his heart, which leads to evil actions, and then Jesus gives him the same fate as the hypocrites. Weeping and gnashing of teeth, a typical reference to hell fire. Compare the similarity with these verses. Them saying Lord Lord to Jesus is obviously meaning they are believers in Christ. Unbelievers in Christ do not call him "Lord".

Luk 13:25 And once the Master of the house has risen up and has shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us, and He shall answer and say to you, I do not know you; from where are you;

Luk 13:26 then you shall begin to say, We ate and drank in Your presence, and You have taught in our streets.

Luk 13:27 But He shall say, I tell you, I do not know you; from where you are. Depart from Me, all workers of unrighteousness!
Luk 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrust out.

You say that even if a Christisan does not forgive as Christ commanded, they are still forgiven by God.
I'm afraid scripture says opposite :

Mat 18:34 And his lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors until he should pay all that was due to him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall My heavenly Father do also to you, unless each one of you from your hearts forgive his brother their trespasses.

"forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you", is saying the same thing as "forgive others, so that God will forgive you". Or, "unless you forgive others, God won't forgive you".
Why? Because God will not extend mercy to us if we are not willing to extend that same mercy to others.

Mango_Nugget · Apr 20, 2009

Once you are sealed by the Holy Spirit... being God Himself, and we're smaller & weaker than God - how can we break that seal - no matter what we do...?!?

It's just not possible - you ARE stubborn (sorry to say).

I'm just going to leave this forum alone from now - and commit you to God in prayer! I cannot go on here without getting really 'in your face' about it.

BLC · Apr 20, 2009

Mango_Nugget said:

Here is a fellow believer that loves the truth but finds himself angry with an erring brother as he tries to convert him from the error of his way. This fellow believer, because of his love for God, has decided to live in restraint and not let his mouth lead him into sin. He is obeying (Eph 4:26) to be angry but sinning not. This shows the level of maturity in the love of God he possesses in his judgment to not let it lead to sin. He is to be commended in this as a faithful brother.

mikeph · Apr 20, 2009

hello, my first post I hope you can't lose your salvation otherwise i will be worried about it my entire life!
Treadmill religion doesn't kill the sinful nature and fear of death and hell should not be in the christian mind but it is given so that christians go into the world with the message of God's doing for us what we could not and by the way still not even as a christian. Yes is it the height of arrogance to think that christians can live without breaking the law

MahogonySnail · Apr 20, 2009

It's just ignorance of all the scriptures I've posted showing that God can and will blot peoples names out of the book of life. You aren't even addressing my questions or scripture I posted just saying what you think God can or cannot do. Why is there even a warning about grieving the Spirit if the seal cannot be broken? Don't say what God cannot do, you know nothing is impossible with God, including cutting someone off the vine, blotting their name out of the book of life, disowning them as His child... if things get so bad that He has to do that. We should not be highminded but fear as it says in Hebrews. If God did not spare the natural branches, what about the ones grafted in?

But I think the pro-OSAS believers (Roaringkitten and others) have had plenty of opportunity to tell others about eternal security so it's only fair I post some scriptures that might doubt those claims.
I think it's valid to balance it out and show that eternal security is not the only belief out there, particuarly if OSAS believers are going to be saying that if you don't believe in it you are in danger of hell fire. Which is a bit funny because it sort of contradicts the very doctrine of OSAS to say that if you dont believe in it you are in danger of losing salvation. And frankly if we look at history the majority of great bible teachers and preachers have not believed in OSAS.

Baptistrw · Apr 20, 2009

Merryheart said:

MS, where does it ever end or who has the measuring stick? If your interpretation of scripture is accurate (which I notice is rather on the legalistic side and I see your using a lot being taken from the OT or before Christ died). Who's to say what sin any one person dies in? Some attitudes on this forum alone are sinful!

Listen I am a mother and I understand the love of a child. I am God's child as well and I know because of this I have received an inheritance (an inheritance speaks of something to come). See the entire chapter of Ephesians.

To be clear I am not labeled any thing (you have labeled people OSAS). I strongly believe in balance in the scirpture. Gods grace is not to be taken advantage of or abused. Even in doing that though , God is merciful and forgiving and we are all a work in progress, children needing to learn the ways of God. I appreciate the study you have done though and causing others to seek out the truth and get into the Word more. There is a balance here for sure, that balance is found in repentance and remaining in a state of humbleness, submission and reliance upon God while remembering He is a God of Love; the unconditional kind

Its my belief though that this measuring stick of what sin will send you to hell is most contrary to Gods grace t hrough Jesus Christ death and ressurection.

Amen, rightly spoken.

MahogonySnail · Apr 20, 2009

First of all, are we to reject the OT? I mean human nature doesn't change. If a righteous person can reject righteousness in the old testament, we suddenly can't because we are in the new testament?
The thing is, we can't really make an argument for separation between OT and NT on the matter of faith. Because the very faith which is spoken of in the NT is referred right back to the faith of Abraham as our example. Abraham was of course Old Testament. It's the same faith. The Israelites lived by faith as we do. There's no indication that the Israelites were able to lose faith because they lived in the OT, but after Christ, we suddenly are not able to lose faith? And the Israelites certainly did reject God, and we know what happened to them. Yet we say that Christians can't reject God?
We should not be so high minded to think that we are better than the Israelites. If the natural branches could fall, what about the grafted in branches? Of course the indwelling Spirit makes it a whole lot easier, but I wouldn't say "can't". I'm sure Judas Iscariot had plenty of faith in Christ up until that moment of satan entering him and denying Christ. I'm sure the Israelites coming out of Egypt had plenty of faith until they started complaining and tested God , eventually many not even making it to the promised land. And Paul in Hebrews for example referred to the Israelites on numerous occasions to explain his viewpoint. I'd question the view that it's legalistic, rather I think it is balanced. A doctrine of grace without human responsbility and free-will is not really right in my mind. It's a two-way relationship, not one-way.

And inheritances are normally given only to faithful children. Unfaithful children are usually cut out of the will. Is that a doctrine of works? No, that is a reward for obedience. And is the reward for obedience the same as the reward for gross disobedience? I can't see how it can be. But OSAS believe the naughty children still get all the goodies.

Where is the measuring stick?
There isn't one basically. It's faith, or no faith in my mind. Not how much sin we have or don't. All our sin is covered as long as we have faith. But I won't deny the possibility of that faith being lost, shipwrecked, etc. But the OSAS doctrine says once a person has faith, they can never lose it. To me that makes us out to be puppets on a string, and once we make a decision for Christ it can't be changed.

Do we realise that coming out of Egypt is analogous to us coming out of our past sinful lives? But that doesn't mean we are suddenly in the promised land. Life in this world is a desert, it's a time of testing our faith, and the Promised Land is heaven. The OSAS thinks that once you come out of Egypt you will find yourself in the Promised Land even if you decided to die in the desert on the journey.

Christ said the way was narrow and difficult, and scripture is filled with exhortations to persevere inthe faith. Why? Why not just say .. "don't worry folks, you can turn back if you want to, but you'll still make it to heaven anyway".

Why did Jesus warn us to forgive others so that God will forgive us? Why did Jesus warn his disciples to be on guard for the doctrine of the Pharisees? Why all these warnings?

88keys · Apr 20, 2009

Mango Nugget...AMEN!!!! I used to struggle with the idea of eternal salvation until God helped me to understand Romans 8:38,39. If I could be saved, lost, saved, lost, saved, lost, etc., I would have NO rest in my salvation and God tells us to rest in Him. My other question was where is the line I cross from saved to lost? Was it because I had a wrong thought? Was it a sinful action? Was it a sin of ommission? Was it just one sin or two? God is not only holy but holy, holy, holy. No matter how good I think I am, I am filthy rags in His sight. But wait!!!!! Enter the blood of Christ! The wonderful blood that has covered my sins past, present, and future. I no longer have to prove myself to God and try to impress Him with my righteousness. Is it a "license to sin"? GOD FORBID! That's like saying getting married is a license to fool around with others!

In our human mind it's hard to understand how we can sin and still remain saved but God's ways and thoughts are not like ours (thank God!). This sinful flesh will die and rot in the ground someday - it will not be saved but my soul which has been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb will be.

KingdomGeneration · Apr 20, 2009

88keys said:

I think a huge problem in the church today is that people tend to believe that the blood of Christ only "covers sin". This concept in and of itself is entirely Old Testament.

Numerous times throughout the New Testament scripture mentions that the blood of Christ washes sin away. When we accept Christ into our lives we literally become a new creature in Christ. At that moment, if you are truly converted, I believe that Christ literally breaks the chains of bondage and addiction that looms over lives. I know a couple of people who were instantaneously delivered from drug addiction upon turning their lives over to Christ. However,they will tell you that it is up to us to turn away from those things that we know tempt us most however, this is rarely taught in churches today. Remember, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

thefightinglamb · Apr 20, 2009

One idea that came to mind is a "correct thought" I believe OSAS believes in, though it is more of a precept or affect of a truth that is not dependent on OSAS doctrine.

Anytime a Christian sins, provided he remembers the Lord and repents, the thought, "God knew everything I would ever do and has forgiven this" is justified...not because once saved always saved, but because God does know and desires but our confessions and repentance...

But this still being saved is surely dependent on God continuing the grace to the individual so that he turns and remembers the Lord....Imagine sinning so that you no longer repented, changed, or cared about the Lord anymore....this individual is lost, no matter if he was once found.

So the thought of a Christian remembering and still loving the Lord, being hurt by his sin, is a witness that God knew and that He still accepts us, and that we still love and care for him as well.

I had other thoughts that I am trying to remember.

God bless
tony

88keys · Apr 20, 2009

Okay KingdomGereration...just a word slip...please change my "covered" to "washed away forever"

thefightinglamb · Apr 20, 2009

Just remembered a verse that is probably the biggest rebuke of OSAS...

Remember when Paul is talking about wordly Christians?

Paul writes that "I am not saying to have nothing to do with [wordly] (he gives a list of the worldly here) for then you would have to go out of this world, but having nothing to do with someone who calls himself Christian that is worldly (list repeated here, I believe)." He goes further and says not only are we not to associate with them, we are to refuse to even have a physical meal with them...something I think I and all Christians need to take to heart...not that this is to foster pride but that it is to keep us holy for the Lord and not become entangled in their hypocrasy.

KingdomGeneration · Apr 20, 2009

88keys said:

Sure thing 88. However, I have noticed that supporters of OSAS seem to use the term"covers sin" often. Just an observation.

OSAS and "Never saved in the first place" Refuted

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Mango_Nugget

Guest

Banned

Mango_Nugget

Guest

Banned

mikeph

Guest

Banned

Baptistrw

Guest

Banned

88keys

Guest

KingdomGeneration

Guest

thefightinglamb

Guest

88keys

Guest

thefightinglamb

Guest

KingdomGeneration

Guest