Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 46

Bible Discussion Forum

Ask (or answer) Bible questions here. Join or start a Bible discussion now!

Thread: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2011
    Age
    37
    Posts
    1,117
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    ... are not sins, in and of themselves. However, the fruit of the spirit is self-control. Addiction of any kind is a sin, because it is a lack of self-control. Smoking or drinking in moderation (now and then) is not prohibited.

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:23)

    12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (1 Corinthians 6:12)

    15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. (Titus 1:15)

    17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. (1 Timothy 6:17)

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    January 24th, 2011
    Age
    48
    Posts
    273
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Quote Originally Posted by trust_in_the_name View Post
    ... are not sins, in and of themselves. However, the fruit of the spirit is self-control. Addiction of any kind is a sin, because it is a lack of self-control. Smoking or drinking in moderation (now and then) is not prohibited.

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:23)

    12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (1 Corinthians 6:12)

    15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. (Titus 1:15)

    17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. (1 Timothy 6:17)
    Hi

    Polygamy is not a sin. IT should not be lumped with the sins of drinking and smoking. I am not sure why Christians ignore the explicit statement God made in allowing polygamy and change the law to suit their own will.

    God is quite clear on the subject of Polygamy.
    Similarly], if [the master] marries another wife, he may not diminish [this one’s] allowance, clothing or conjugal rights.
    Exodus 21:10

    If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love
    Deutoronomy 21:15

  3. #3
    oneGodapostolic
    Guest

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Hello. It is appointed for man under this dispensation of grace to have only one wife. In mark 10:41 it reads whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. It's very plain. If you're married, you cannot have another wife, unless your first wife dies, then you are free to remarry. If you divorce and marry another, or dare to take another wife with your wife you are in big trouble with the King of Kings, bc he gets the final word and he says its adultery, which is sin.

  4. #4
    Senior Member cookie39's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 5th, 2009
    Age
    47
    Posts
    616
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    First of all you need to stop taking scripture and twisting them to fit your human understand.... and if you read the bible AND RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH... you will see that JESUS SAID IT IS NOT WHAT GOES IN THE BODY/MOUTH that defile a man it is what come out of the HEART that defiles of man... it is adultry, Idolotry, murders, etc... smoking is not a sin... if smoking is sin then so is food, your body is not made up of pork or beef, neither is it an fruit or veggy. nor is it pop.. maybe water.. but most of the things we put in our body will leave it as Jesus said. drinking is not a sin... these things you call sin is just like the Lord said....MAN MADE COMMANDMENTS!!! a cigarette does not have control over no one... it is not human it does not have life.. naturaly or spiritual.. they do not make you kill.... they as everything else you put in your body are of the elements of the earth God has created... coffee, sodas, certain foods, ( everyone have their own picks) television, I can go on and on about the things people use or do to enjoy themselves... will a man go to hell for being addicted to coffee, or cheetos, or doritos... if the only meat they will eat all day, every day is pork or beeef and the love it so much that they got to have it.... please use common sence here. everything is foreign to the body, everything but water and blood. the bible say do not drink to get drunk... it say do not get your neighbor drunk in order to take advantage of them.... never ever in the whole bible does it say that drinking is a sin, neither does it refer to smoking in any form of the way. this is of man and not God. What the Lord is talking about that is unfruitful is the sins of the heart. How is smoking an issue of self control for someone who like it and is not trying or do not want to stop...... are you serious??? If I like to eat and I try to go three days without food; and I can't then food has become sin to me??? NO!! it has not. cause I can't control the craving for food or water, weather it be televison, or vidoe games, for some people it could be excersing; i know people who the doctor told to stop drinking pops, and they could not cauuse they liked it too much... do pops defile the body, never heard no one say anything about the addistion to coffee.... Wow you need to check with the Lord before you go taking scripture out of context... b4 you go saying God said something when he did not..... God said anything that is not of faith is sin and to him that it is sin then it is sin.... so if it is sin to you; that between you and God... but because man said it don't make it doctrine. so if you ever tried, or will try to fast.... hope you make it... cause the judgement you put out will be the judgement you get back..... cause if you can't control yourself and give up something ( what ever you love to do or have) for a day/s then that thing will become sin in your life... cause you can't control yourself and give it of. so stop making things God don't even wink at a camel for other to carry.... I pray you stick to the commandments of the lord and not those of man...
    Last edited by cookie39; March 2nd, 2011 at 10:43 AM.
    Cookie39

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    December 19th, 2009
    Age
    64
    Posts
    27,514
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Smoking and unchastity are always sins.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    January 24th, 2011
    Age
    48
    Posts
    273
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Quote Originally Posted by oneGodapostolic View Post
    Hello. It is appointed for man under this dispensation of grace to have only one wife. In mark 10:41 it reads whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. It's very plain. If you're married, you cannot have another wife, unless your first wife dies, then you are free to remarry. If you divorce and marry another, or dare to take another wife with your wife you are in big trouble with the King of Kings, bc he gets the final word and he says its adultery, which is sin.
    Sorry oneGod

    That verse deals with divorcing one to marry another.

    "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.

    It has nothing to do with polygamy.

    Jesus was not there to change the law.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    December 19th, 2009
    Age
    59
    Posts
    2,723
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    Smoking and unchastity are always sins.
    Which is a worse sin? Smoking or finding fault with others?

    Which is a worse sin? Smoking, or people in chiurch only mixing with people on their own social level and barely speaking to others.

    Which is worse? To smoke, or lack mercy, love and compassion

    The more important issues are those of the heart. I have seen many Christians shake their heads at those who smoke and quote relevant Bible verses to them,. but they rarely speak to them otherwise.

    I wonder whose 'sin' God considers the worst

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    January 24th, 2011
    Age
    48
    Posts
    273
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Hi Cookie

    JESUS SAID IT IS NOT WHAT GOES IN THE BODY/MOUTH that defile a man it is what come out of the HEART that defiles of man.
    I suggest you may want to read the preceding verses to put that that verse into context.

    "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

    It was the answer to the accusation that they did not wash their hands before eating which was a Jewish tradition. Nothing to do with making pork clean. Jesus was not there to change the law.Jesus pbuh never ate pork in his life yet most Christians do not follow his example. It was Paul who said it was OK to eat pork. He is the example Christians follow.

    The author Roshen Enam says:
    “Paul abolished the Law, which was followed and preached by Jesus (pbuh), and corrupted the whole religion, giving it a new form. The main ambition behind all this was, in his own words, “to win a larger number” of followers; the followers of a new religion “the Pauline Christianity”. (Follow Jesus or Follow Paul p. 69)

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    January 24th, 2011
    Age
    48
    Posts
    273
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Quote Originally Posted by livingbygrace View Post
    Which is a worse sin? Smoking or finding fault with others?

    Which is a worse sin? Smoking, or people in chiurch only mixing with people on their own social level and barely speaking to others.

    Which is worse? To smoke, or lack mercy, love and compassion

    The more important issues are those of the heart. I have seen many Christians shake their heads at those who smoke and quote relevant Bible verses to them,. but they rarely speak to them otherwise.

    I wonder whose 'sin' God considers the worst
    Finding faults in other is a lot bigger sin unless you are providing constructive comments privately with the person doing the sin. Some people sin and don't realize it. We should try to stop sins when we see them. If we can't we should hate the act not the person.

  10. #10
    Credo_ut_Intelligam
    Guest

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Hi

    Polygamy is not a sin. IT should not be lumped with the sins of drinking and smoking. I am not sure why Christians ignore the explicit statement God made in allowing polygamy and change the law to suit their own will.

    God is quite clear on the subject of Polygamy.
    Similarly], if [the master] marries another wife, he may not diminish [this one’s] allowance, clothing or conjugal rights.
    Exodus 21:10

    If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love
    Deutoronomy 21:15
    God is quite clear on the subject of Polygamy, it is a violation of his intention in the marriage covenant. But first let me address the verses you cite.

    These verses (Ex. 21:10 and Deut. 21:15) provide restrictions on persons who have more than one wife, but they do not promote or support having more than one wife. You must understand the logical distinction between these two concepts. Consider that American has laws that provide restrictions on how much alcohol you can drink. But this does not itself mean that America promotes drinking alcohol.

    Or consider Jesus' example of divorce. The OT Law provided restrictions on divorce. But clearly God did not promote divorce. In fact, God hates divorce. Yet he did not make a ban of divorce a civil/judicial issue. Rather, he places lesser civil/judicial restrictions on divorce. This simply means that the civil law is not identical to the moral law (this should be obvious, really) and that no immediate inference can be made from civil law to moral law.

    So the verses you have given us which provide restrictions on polygamy do not prove that God looks favorably on polygamy any more than divorce law restrictions prove that God looks favorably upon divorce.

    But that God looks down upon polygamy is clear throughout the Genesis narrative, including the account of God creating just one woman for Adam. As OT scholar Gordon Wenham states,

    "...it is striking that the LORD God created only one Eve for Adam. Polygamy was an accepted feature of life in ancient Israel especially among the leaders of society, yet Adam is provided with just one wife. This is not meanness on God’s part, for the rest of the story shows him keen to supply Adam’s every need, and Adam’s shout of greeting when he meets Eve shows he is perfectly satisfied with just one wife. The rest of Genesis seems to confirm monogamy as the most desirable situation, as all the polygamous marriages it describes are marred by strife. Finally, had Adam been supplied with several wives, he could have been fruitful and multiplied even quicker! The creation of one Eve thus shows that monogamy is more important than rapid multiplication… Lamech, the first bigamist, is a vicious thug, boasting that he will take seventy-sevenfold vengeance on those who attack him (4:23–24). Sarah’s resort to surrogate motherhood, though a well-known practice in the ancient Near East, is described in terms that echo Genesis 3 and causes great tension between Sarah, Hagar and Abraham. Jacob’s involuntary bigamy leads to a most unhappy marriage for all concerned. As Leah and Rachel name their sons, they pour out their feelings of rejection on the one hand and their desire for more children on the other (29:32–30:24)."

    (Story as Torah: Reading Old Testament Narrative Ethically. 31-33)

    Even prior to the NT being written, there were Jews who recognized that polygamy is a sin and they often made their argument by "glossing" Genesis 2:14 with the word "two" instead of "they." This is justifiable since God only made Adam and Eve, but it's also obviously meant to be normative insertion of the narrator, explaining the institution of marriage. This is the background to Jesus' statement in Matthew 19 (and Mark 10) that "...the two shall become one flesh’... So they are no longer two but one flesh" (vss 5-6). In other words,

    The significant point, as far as the Gospel text [Matthew 19] is concerned, is that this variant text is used very self-consciously, with the additional comment 'So they are no longer two but one' emphasizing the presence of the word 'two.'... This type of exegesis was common in early rabbinic Judaism and was later called gezerah shavah… This exegesis would have been obvious to any intelligent listener and was not normally accompanied by any kind of explanation when it occurred in rabbinic literature or in the Targums. The frist text, Genesis 1:27, was part of a standard proof for monogamy as seen in the Damascus Document... Both Mark and the Damascus Document cite exactly the same portion of Genesis 1:27, and they both precede the quotation with a very similar phrase. Mark refers to 'the beginning of creation'... while the Damascus Document used the phrase 'the foundation of creation'... they are semantically identical.... Jesus was making the point very strongly. He was saying not only that polygamy was immoral but that it was illegal.

    (David Instone-Brewer. Divorce And Remarriage In The Bible. 137-138)

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    January 24th, 2011
    Age
    48
    Posts
    273
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Hi Credo

    You have not produce any explicit statement where polygamy is not allowed. You have not produced any explicit statement where polygamy is not desired by God.

    Lamech, the first bigamist, is a vicious thug, boasting that he will take seventy-sevenfold vengeance on those who attack him (4:23–24).
    This is pure speculation that Lamech was a vicious thug because he was a polygamist. Cain was the first vicious thug. He was not a polygamist.

    Sarah’s resort to surrogate motherhood, though a well-known practice in the ancient Near East, is described in terms that echo Genesis 3 and causes great tension between Sarah, Hagar and Abraham
    There are errors surrounding the story of Sarah and Hagars. Ishmael was not a child when he left with Hagar but a 17 year old young adult. The bible has portrayed him as a child. There has been some playing with the translation in later version but it is clear that Ishmael is seen as a child. The link below is the bible encyclopedia portrayal of the 17 year old Ishmael.

    Genesis 21 Bible Pictures: Hagar and Ishmael leave Abram

    Anyway that is a debate for another time. There is no explicit statements against polygamy here either.

    Jacob’s involuntary bigamy leads to a most unhappy marriage for all concerned. As Leah and Rachel name their sons, they pour out their feelings of rejection on the one hand and their desire for more children on the other (29:32–30:24)."
    Again no explicit statement against polygamy. If God does not like something God will let you know, there is no need to guess.

    I have shown where polygamy is mentioned explicitly by God.

    In Exodus 21:10 where God states, hey don't forget your first wife rights if you marry another.
    In Deutoronomy 21:15 God states the first born has his rights regardless of whether he is to the wife you love or not..

    Clear rules surrounding polygamy. Why are these ignored and other scriptures are bent to try to align God's will with man ?

    God may or may not hate divorce but God is clear through his prophet the scenarios where God does not want a divorce. God does not want a divorce done if it is just to marry another woman.

    Even prior to the NT being written, there were Jews who recognized that polygamy is a sin and they often made their argument by "glossing" Genesis 2:14 with the word "two" instead of "they."
    I think the reference to Geneis 2:14 is incorrect. This assertion is incorrect. Polygamy was lawful as indicated in the bible verses above. It was banned by Rabbeinu Gershom Ben Judah about 1000 years after Christ. A case of man overturning what was decreed by God.

    Polygamy for christians was not banned by Jesus pbuh it was banned by Augustine 400 years after Christ. Again a man overturning what was decreed by God.

    Of course if the orders of God stated in Exodus and Deutoronomy were followed, it would have remove the justifications these people used to ban polygamy.

  12. #12
    Credo_ut_Intelligam
    Guest

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    PBUH,

    You have not produce any explicit statement where polygamy is not allowed. You have not produced any explicit statement where polygamy is not desired by God.
    Even if I haven't given an explicit statement, so what? I only need to show that it follows "by good and necessary inference." So all I need to do is show that monogamy follows from Jesus' understanding of Genesis 1 and 2. I have done that.

    This is pure speculation that Lamech was a vicious thug because he was a polygamist. Cain was the first vicious thug. He was not a polygamist.
    First of all, you're twisting the words. Wenham didn't say that he was a thug *because* he was a polygamist. Wenham is saying that the comments on Lamech's actions (both bigamy and thuggery) are clearly meant to be received with moral disapproval in the narrative. Second, your point about Cain is irrelevant since Wenham didn't say "all thugs are polygamist". You're just setting up straw-men.

    There are errors surrounding the story of Sarah and Hagars. Ishmael was not a child when he left with Hagar but a 17 year old young adult. The bible has portrayed him as a child. There has been some playing with the translation in later version but it is clear that Ishmael is seen as a child. The link below is the bible encyclopedia portrayal of the 17 year old Ishmael.

    Genesis 21 Bible Pictures: Hagar and Ishmael leave Abram
    I already deconstructed these arguments in a different thread. You're just repeating lines from your script that I already refuted. You reduced yourself to just saying "it's obvious!" over and over and showing pictures... Now I certainly hope you don't take the same tactic here and simply shout how obvious it is that God approves of polygamy over and over or "no explicit statement" over and over.

    Last time you got stuck on the "child" presupposition and kept repeating that over and over. But, thankfully, after I addressed it on about three or four different occasions you finally seemed to give it up... at which point you moved to showing us pictures... I'm not saying this to demean you, I'm simply trying to preempt us from wasting time going over the same point five times: I point out there is no need for explicit statements, you just assert it again, I point out that there is no need for explicit statements, you just assert it again... Like the "child" incident.

    There is no explicit statements against polygamy here either.
    Which is irrelevant, as I pointed out above. The entire point of Wenham's book (Story as Torah) is that the narratives are not simply communicating factual information in an encyclopedic form. They are trying to communicate messages, ethical messages. The reader of the narrative is supposed to make ethical evaluations on the actions of the persons in the narrative and Wenham argues that the narrative casts these polygamist episodes in a negative light.

    Again no explicit statement against polygamy.
    Irrelevant.

    If God does not like something God will let you know, there is no need to guess.
    There is no need to guess in this instance either. When God instituted marriage in the garden it was clear.

    I have shown where polygamy is mentioned explicitly by God.

    In Exodus 21:10 where God states, hey don't forget your first wife rights if you marry another.
    In Deutoronomy 21:15 God states the first born has his rights regardless of whether he is to the wife you love or not..

    Clear rules surrounding polygamy. Why are these ignored and other scriptures are bent to try to align God's will with man ?
    You're just repeating an argument I've already responded too on these particular verses. You don't interact at all with my counter-argument... you just repeat your initial argument. Look, I've already been over how this works with you in the last thread:

    1. You give argument.
    2. I respond to argument with rebuttal.

    The next step should be:

    3. You respond to rebuttal.

    Not:

    1. You repeat initial argument.

    That's how a discussion works. We can never have real interaction if you just repeat your script again and again and again (like repeating the line about "child" again and again and again). I shouldn't have to go through this same process with you over and over each time we talk.

    I've already shown how these verses are insufficient grounds to infer that God approves of polygamy. If you want to talk rather than soapbox you'll need to address that instead of just repeating yourself.

    God may or may not hate divorce but God is clear through his prophet the scenarios where God does not want a divorce. God does not want a divorce done if it is just to marry another woman.
    This is irrelevant to the point I made through God's hating divorce. God hates divorce, yet he allowed it under certain conditions for certain reasons. Thus, laws restricting divorce are not grounds for inferring God approves of divorce. Likewise, God restricting the practice of polygamy are not grounds of inferring God approves of polygamy.

    Nothing you said about divorce was relevant to that point.

    I think the reference to Geneis 2:14 is incorrect.
    Yet you don't give any argument. Please don't fall back on the "it's obvious" and pictures routine.

    This assertion is incorrect.
    The evidence for it is the LXX's translation in the context of the rest of the argument given by David Instone-Brewer. So it's not just an assertion... although your assertion that it is incorrect is just an assertion (an incorrect one).

    Polygamy was lawful as indicated in the bible verses above.
    An assertion which ignores the arguments I've made. And even if it was lawful in the OT (Instone-Brewer argues that Jesus made it unlawful), it doesn't demonstrate that God looks favorably upon it and that it isn't a violation of his intention in creating marriage. Divorce wasn't part of God's intention in creating marriage either. But he allowed as a matter of civil affairs because of men's stubbornness. So nothing significant follows from your references to polygamy in Deut. or Ex. But then I've already said all this before...

    Polygamy for christians was not banned by Jesus
    Which simply ignores the argument I quoted.

    it was banned by Augustine 400 years after Christ.
    This is just false. Actually it was spoken against far much earlier than this. For instance, Justin Martyr (Dialogue With Trypho, 134), Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 1:28:2), and Tertullian (To His Wife, 1:2) to name just a few. So if the teaching against polygamy was not learned from Jesus' teaching on Genesis 1 and 2, it will be hard to explain how the Christians suddenly and almost universally made the idea up out of thin air as early as the second century.

    Again a man overturning what was decreed by God.
    Which simply begs the question (assumes what needs to be prove).

    Of course if the orders of God stated in Exodus and Deutoronomy were followed, it would have remove the justifications these people used to ban polygamy.
    Right, and I guess we would still have slavery and the like too. But then we realized that God's laws do not necessarily fit an ideal society but are, very often, attempts to restrict evil, stubborn men as much as possible then when we get the chance to achieve a more ideal state (not having divorce or not having slavery or not having polygamy) it is good to do so.

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    January 24th, 2011
    Age
    48
    Posts
    273
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Hi Credo

    ven if I haven't given an explicit statement, so what? I only need to show that it follows "by good and necessary inference." So all I need to do is show that monogamy follows from Jesus' understanding of Genesis 1 and 2. I have done that.
    Sorry but I find this comment a bit strange. If God has stated something explicitly then until he explicitly states otherwise there should be no assumption. Jesus did not speak out against polygamy thus christians continued to have poligamous relatioships for another 400 years. It was only when they lost faith in God being a solution to their problems that they banned polygamy.

    Right, and I guess we would still have slavery and the like too. But then we realized that God's laws do not necessarily fit an ideal society but are, very often, attempts to restrict evil, stubborn men as much as possible then when we get the chance to achieve a more ideal state (not having divorce or not having slavery or not having polygamy) it is good to do so.
    Wow, Gods law does not fit an ideal society. So do you think man laws are better than Gods laws ? You need to have a bit of faith in God being the solution to our problems.

    Concerning slavery. God come down hard on racial slavery Exodus 21:16 where you capture people and sel them. Similar to what the US did where they would go to Africa and round up a few slaves and bring them back. The slavery God condoned was seen as necessary in the event of a person who cannot survive on his own. He would sell himself as a slave to survive. God states that such a person should be treated well Ephesians 6:9 and should be freed after 7 years Deuteronomy 15:12-15 and given supplies and flock. Effectively a slave was a contractor on a seven year contract. A live in help.

    If slavery was option today for people we would have a lot less homeless people having to beg to survive. People would contract themselves to someone for 7 years then be set up for life.

    Gods laws when applied correctly are a solution to all our problems. The number of people relying on welfare would be halved within a year. There would be more money in the treasury to give to the poor so they do not get to the stage where they need to contract themselves out for 7 years to survive.

    This is why Jesus pbuh said he had not come to change the laws and told everyone to do what the pharisees say but not do. Jesus pbuh knew the wisdom in what God wanted from us.

  14. #14
    Senior Member kayem77's Avatar
    Join Date
    February 5th, 2011
    Age
    25
    Posts
    2,380
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    I think here Jesus makes all of this matter very clear when the pharisees asked Him about the divorce law:

    Mat 19:1 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;
    Mat 19:2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
    Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
    Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which madethemat the beginning made them male and female,
    Mat 19:5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
    Mat 19:6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
    Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
    Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
    Mat 19:9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, exceptit befor fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.



  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    January 24th, 2011
    Age
    48
    Posts
    273
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Quote Originally Posted by kayem77 View Post
    I think here Jesus makes all of this matter very clear when the pharisees asked Him about the divorce law:

    Mat 19:1 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;
    Mat 19:2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
    Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
    Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which madethemat the beginning made them male and female,
    Mat 19:5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
    Mat 19:6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
    Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
    Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
    Mat 19:9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, exceptit befor fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

    Sorry kayem this is not an explicit statement against polygamy. It talks about the the bonds of marriage being closer than the bonds with your parent. It also stated the laws of divorce at the time of Moses pbuh were applied harshly.

    According to Father Eugene Hillman,
    ‘Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy.’
    Polygamy Reconsidered, p. 140.

    If Jesus pbuh commanded explicitly against polygamy then Christians would have banned polygamy from day 1 and not 400 years later.

    The reason it was banned by Augustine
    He wrote in The Good of Marriage (chapter 15, paragraph 17),

    that polygamy …was lawful among the ancient fathers: whether it be lawful now also, I would not hastily pronounce. For there is not now necessity of begetting children, as there then was, when, even when wives bear children, it was allowed, in order to get a more numerous posterity, to marry other wives in addition, which now is certainly not lawful.


    No mention of Jesus pbuh banning polygamy, He actual said it was lawful but they don't need so many children now. Man apparently knowing what man needs better than God.

  16. #16
    Senior Member kayem77's Avatar
    Join Date
    February 5th, 2011
    Age
    25
    Posts
    2,380
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    God TOLERATED divorce under certain conditions in the Law of Moises because their hearts were hard, even if the law had provisions for polygamy, it was never and encouragement
    I think is clearer than water and is kind of a common sense thing. You don't see Him say and shall cleave to his WIVES, He says WIFE, and the same statement is repeated several times in the Scriptures. And Jesus did change the law when He came. If not, woman were still stoned when caught in an adultery act, to say an example.
    Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
    Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
    Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
    Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.




    The OT and NT have VERY different context so maybe what it was okay in the OT, in the NT is different. The relationship between God and humans changed A LOT. However, God clearly stated in Genesis : man and woman shall be ONE flesh, this was stated since the begining of times and if a third party joined that sacred union, it wouldn't be ONE flesh no more don't you think? if you want a verse in the bible saying EXACTLY what you need to hear I think you will have trouble in that , because of course you can always say : the bible didn't banned polygamy because the bible doesn't say : GOD BAN POLYGAMY NOW AND FOREVER. Also remember that just because something is lawful, it doesn't mean is godly.

    1 Corinthias 7:2
    But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

    PD: when you read something it may sounds rude, I just want to say that what I said wasn't by any mean in a rude way but respectful .

  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    January 24th, 2011
    Age
    48
    Posts
    273
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Hi Kayem77

    PD: when you read something it may sounds rude, I just want to say that what I said wasn't by any mean in a rude way but respectful
    No worries

    If you still have not addressed that the most knowledgeable of Christians, the ones that were in contact with Jesus pbuh and receiving their instructions directly did not stop polygamy after Jesus ascended into heaven.

    It was only Augustine 400 years later that stopped it for reasons that have nothing to do with any teaching of Jesus pbuh. Augustine considered it to be lawful but for worldly reasons wanted to ban it.

  18. #18
    angelos
    Guest

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Quote Originally Posted by PBUH View Post
    Hi Cookie



    I suggest you may want to read the preceding verses to put that that verse into context.

    "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

    It was the answer to the accusation that they did not wash their hands before eating which was a Jewish tradition. Nothing to do with making pork clean. Jesus was not there to change the law.Jesus pbuh never ate pork in his life yet most Christians do not follow his example. It was Paul who said it was OK to eat pork. He is the example Christians follow.

    The author Roshen Enam says:
    “Paul abolished the Law, which was followed and preached by Jesus (pbuh), and corrupted the whole religion, giving it a new form. The main ambition behind all this was, in his own words, “to win a larger number” of followers; the followers of a new religion “the Pauline Christianity”. (Follow Jesus or Follow Paul p. 69)
    19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) Mark 7:19 so yes Jesus pronouced all food clean just to clear that up now enjoy your debate with credo

  19. #19
    angelos
    Guest

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    I am curious as to how polygamy got thrown in there with smoking and drinking... just waaaaaay different than those two

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    January 24th, 2011
    Age
    48
    Posts
    273
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Smoking, Drinking, and Polygamy

    Quote Originally Posted by angelos View Post
    I am curious as to how polygamy got thrown in there with smoking and drinking... just waaaaaay different than those two
    Yes your right Angelos. Smoking and drinking is a sin. Polygamy is not.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast