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Thread: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

  1. #201
    Dutch41
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Part II


    Passage #4: Execution
    Talmud Sanhedrin 43a
    It is taught: On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him." But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover.
    Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and G-d said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him."
    Yeshu was different because he was close to the government.
    Summary
    Here we have the story of the execution of Yeshu. Like Ben Stada, he was also executed on the eve of Passover. Before executing him, the court searched for any witnesses who could clear his name, as was normally done before any execution. Ulla, however, questioned this practice. An enticer, due to the biblical mandate not to be merciful, should not be afforded this normal consideration. The Talmud answers that Yeshu was different. Because of his government connections, the court tried to search for any reason not to execute him and upset the government.
    Proof
    Again we see Yeshu. All of the proofs from above connecting Yeshu to Jesus apply here as well. Additionally, the execution on the eve of Passover is another connection to Jesus as above with Ben Stada.
    Problems
    1. As mentioned above with Ben Stada, the Synoptic Gospels have Jesus being executed on Passover itself and not the eve of Passover.
    2. As above, Yeshu lived a century before Jesus.
    3. Yeshu was executed by a Jewish court and not by the Romans. During Yeshu's time, the reign of Alexander Janneus, the Jewish courts had the power to execute but had to be careful because the courts were ruled by the Pharisees while the king was a Sadducee. It seems clear why the courts would not want to unneccesarily upset the monarch by executing a friend of his. During the Roman occupation of Jesus' time, there is no indication that the Jewish courts had the right to execute criminals.
    3. There is no indication from the New Testament that Jesus had friends in the government.

    Passage #5: Disciples
    Talmud Sanhedrin 43a
    It is taught: Yeshu had five disciples - Matai, Nekai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah.
    They brought Matai [before the judges]. He said to them: Will Matai be killed? It is written (Psalm 42:2) "When [=Matai] shall (I) come and appear before G-d."
    They said to him: Yes, Matai will be killed as it is written (Psalm 41:5) "When [=Matai] shall (he) die and his name perish."
    They brought Nekai. He said to them: Will Nekai be killed? It is written (Exodus 23:7) "The innocent [=Naki] and the righteous you shall not slay."
    They said to him: Yes, Nekai will be killed as it is written (Psalm 10:8) "In secret places he slay the innocent [=Naki]."
    They brought Netzer. He said to them: Will Netzer be killed? It is written (Isaiah 11:1) "A branch [=Netzer] shall spring up from his roots."
    They said to him: Yes, Netzer will be killed as it is written (Isaiah 14:19) "You are cast forth out of your grave like an abominable branch [=Netzer]."
    They brought Buni. He said to them: Will Buni be killed? It is written (Exodus 4:22) "My son [=Beni], my firstborn, Israel."
    They said to him: Yes, Buni will be killed as it is written (Exodus 4:23) "Behold, I slay your son [=Bincha] your firstborn."
    They brought Todah. He said to them: Will Todah be killed? It is written (Psalm 100:1) "A Psalm for thanksgiving [=Todah]."
    They said to him: Yes, Todah will be killed as it is written (Psalm 50:23) "Whoever sacrifices thanksgiving [=Todah] honors me."
    Summary
    Five of Yeshu's disciples were brought before a court, tried for the crime against G-d and society of idolatry, and executed according to biblical law. This passages presents each disciple cleverly bringing a biblical verse in an attempt to exonerate himself and the court responding likewise.
    Proof
    The name Yeshu is used as above. The additional proof this passage provides is that Matai is the Hebrew equivalent of Matthew, one of Jesus' disciples.
    Problems
    1. The same problems above connecting Yeshu to Jesus apply here.
    2. Of the five disciples, only one is recognized. What of the other four?
    3. The name Matai seems like a nickname or Aramaic equivalent of Matityahu, which was a known Jewish name in that time period. It was probably a common name, considering the high esteem in which the patriarch of the Hasmonean dynasty, Matityahu, was held by the common people. Some manuscripts have the name of R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah's famous colleague as Matai from Arbel [cf. R. Shimon Ben Tzemach Duran, Magen Avot, ed. Zeini (Jerusalem:2000) p. 31].

    Passage #6: The Student
    Tosefta Chullin 2:23
    It once happened that R. Elazar ben Damah was bitten by a snake and Ya'akov of the village Sechania came to heal him in the name of Yeshu ben Pandira, but R. Yishmael did not allow him.
    Proof
    Here we see the only place in which the names Yeshu and Ben Pandira are connected.

    Theories
    Hazy History
    Some historians consider all of the above passages to refer to Jesus. Granted, there are many difficulties in tying all of the details together, particulary the historical timeframes. However, these historians claim "that chronology was not a science in which the rabbis excelled, or one in which they laid stress upon accuracy" [RT Herford, Chritianity in Talmud & Midrash, p. 347]. The rabbis of the talmud had a hazy memory of Jesus and embellished upon it in order to villainize him. The inconsistencies among the various stories are of no consequence because the rabbis did not care. Thus, Jesus is Yeshu is Ben Stada is Ben Pandira. Mary Magdalene is called Jesus' mother due to some vague familiarity with the gospel story. Jesus' execution was recalled but only some details remembered. In fact, these historians found many more references to Jesus in the talmud that did not use his name [discussed here]. Herford lists about twenty different passages that he claims refer to Jesus and still concludes that "it is remarkable how very little the talmud does say about Jesus" [ibid.]. This was at one time the standard approach of historians. However, the obvious bias against talmudic rabbis and the wanton attribution of nameless passages has since given way to a more balanced approach among academics.
    Goldstein, in his highly respected doctoral dissertation Jesus in the Jewish Tradition, argues against the attribution to Jesus of various references in the talmud, such as Balaam and "a certain person". In his view, this is finding in the texts what one was a priori looking for [Cf. Goldstein, pp. 57-81]. Joseph Klausner does not consider the Ben Stada passages as referring to Jesus [Joseph Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth, pp. 20-23]. Johann Maier concurs and adds that Ben Pandira had no connection to Jesus either [Johann Maier, Jesus von Nazareth in der talmudischen Uberlieferung, p. 237, cited in John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, vol. I p. 106 n. 45]. Maier further denies that the passage in Sanhedrin 43a about the execution and disciples of Yeshu has anything to do with Jesus [Maier, p. 229, cited in Meier vol. I p. 107 n. 51]. John P. Meier, a Catholic priest and author of the most recent and highly acclaimed scholarly analysis of the evidence of Jesus' life, A Marginal Jew, which has even been added to the Anchor Bible Reference Library, takes a middle ground and says "While not accepting the full, radical approach of Maier, I think we can agree with him on one basic point: in the earliest rabbinic sources, there is no clear or even probable reference to Jesus of Nazareth" [Meier, vol. I p. 98].
    Meier also adds what seems to be a direct answer to Herford's remark quoted above. Meier says "Hence, apart from Josephus, Jewish literature of the early Christian period offers no independent source for inquiry into the historical Jesus. Indeed, why should it? Engaged in a fierce struggle for its own survival and definition, early rabbinic Judaism had other matters on its mind -- matters that, from its own perspective, were much more important" [Meier, ibid.].
    Many modern historians detect different strata of texts from different ages within the talmudic period. The passages originally referred to different people named Yeshu, Ben Stada, and Ben Pandira, none of whom were Jesus. Over time, different generations of talmudic rabbis melded the passages together with added phrases and details. However, according to Johann Maier, none of these passages ever related to Jesus. Some scholars, such as Joseph Klausner and John P. Meier, believe that some of the later additions were meant to refer to Jesus, while the original basic text did not. It is therefore very difficult to determine what, if anything, the talmud actually says about Jesus.
    These attempts at literary analysis of the talmud, while not quite heretical to traditional Jews, are certainly anathema. We will therefore try to use the literature of more traditional historical views of the talmudic passages along with some classic rabbinic commentaries to understand the subjects of these texts.
    Two Yeshus
    The standard rabbinic understanding of these passages is that these passages refer to at least two different people [cf. Tosafot HaRosh, Sotah 47a sv Yeshu, Shabbat 104b sv Ben Stada; Tosafot (uncensored) Shabbat 104b sv Ben Stada; R. Abraham Zacuto, Sefer Hayuchasin 5:6, R. Natan David Rabinowitz, Binu Shenot Dor Vador, pp. 422-425] . The first lived in the first half of the first century BCE during the reign of Alexander Janneus. The second lived in the first half of the second century CE, during the time of the Roman persecution that led to Rabbi Akiva's tragic death.
    The first, Yeshu Ben Pandira, started his own sect and had many followers. His heretical and idolatrous teachings lasted centuries after his life but, like so many Jewish sects, slowly died out after the destruction of the Temple.
    The second, Ben Stada, was simply a public idolater from an illustrious family who was caught and punished.
    The only connections between the two are their fathers' names, that they were executed on the day before Passover, and that they both spent time in Egypt. The first is probably a mere coincidence because, as pointed out above, Panthera (which in Hebrew and Aramaic is equivalent of Pandira) was a common name.
    Ben Stada may have been executed on the day before Passover in Lud out of deference for his illustrious step-father. On that day, most people were gathered in Jerusalem preparing their Passover sacrifices and very few people would have witnessed the execution in Lud. Yeshu Ben Pandira may have been executed on the day before Passover in Jerusalem for the exact opposite reason. Since he was the leader of a heretical sect, the court may have wished that the crowd in Jerusalem would see his execution and learn that his sect was a deviation from the true Judaism.
    Their both having spent time in Egypt is similar to two American Jews today both visiting New York City at some time in their lives. From the year 307 BCE to the year 113 CE, Alexandria had one of the largest and most illustrious Jewish communities in the world. Its hundreds of thousands of Jews had a very large and active Jewish community, which is probably why R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah and Yeshu were able to hide there . The Alexandrian community was also noted for its affinity to Hellenistic culture. Its most famous product, Philo, wrote exclusively in Greek and propounded a very Hellenistic philosophy which some consider to be heretical to Judaism [see Samuel Belkin's introduction to Midreshei Philon]. It is certainly not surprising that the young Ben Pandira's visit to this thriving Jewish center led him to accept a hybrid Jewish-Hellenist religion that was considered idolatry by traditional Jews.
    The following chart shows which details refer to each person.

    Yeshu Ben Pandira Passage 2 Lived appr. 80 BCE Student of R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah Escaped persecution by fleeing to Egypt and, upon return, became an idolater Passage 4 Executed on the day before Passover Had close contact with government officials Passage 5 Had five disciples who were also executed. Passage 6 His legacy remained for centuries, even until the time of R. Yishmael (died 133) Ben Stada Passage 1 Lived appr. 100 CE Sometimes called Ben Pandira but mainly Ben Stada, possibly to differentiate him from Yeshu Ben Pandira Brought witchcraft from Egypt Mother was Miriam the hairdresser, also known as Stada Father was Pandira Step-father was Pappos Ben Yehudah Passage 3 Executed on the day before Passover in Lud for idolatry Early Jesus
    Some historians go further. It is well known, and long a matter of controversy, that beginning in the early 19th century some historians disputed the existence of an historical Jesus at all. According to this theory, Jesus never existed and the early church fathers created him as a figure for their religion. The gospels are compilations of various legends that were attributed to this mythical character Jesus. Much ink has been spilled debating this theory, but there are some historians who accept this and go one step further. They identify the basis of the New Testament Jesus in the story of Yeshu Ben Pandira. This legendary figure, who was branded a heretic by Jewish leaders, founded a Jewish sect that inspired and influenced the early Christians. These early Christians then adopted the story of Yeshu Ben Pandira and modified it to fit into a later historical period and their own eclectic religious beliefs. [cf. R. Avraham Ibn Daud, Sefer Hakabbalah, 53; Sefer Hayuchasin, ibid.; Avraham Korman, Zeramim Vekitot Beyahadut, pp. 354-364].
    Some daring scholars have even identified the original Jesus or proto-Jesus, Yeshu Ben Pandira, as the Teacher of Righteousness who led the sect in Qumran [cf. Alvar Ellegård, Jesus One Hundred Years Before Christ; G.R.S. Mead, Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?; G. A. Wells, The Jesus Myth].
    While these theories are highly speculative and certainly not mainstream, researchers have amassed a large amount of evidence, from archaelogical finds to medieval references, that point to either this or a similar conclusion.
    Conclusion
    It seems clear by now that there is no consensus whether Jesus is mentioned at all in the Talmud. Most of the supposed "blasphemies" of Jesus and Mary in the Talmud do not refer to them at all. However, there can be no denying, and no rabbi would deny this, that the authors of the Talmud did not believe in Jesus' messiahship or his divinity. If you are looking for Christian fellowship then Jewish literature is not the place to look. However, there is no basis at all to state unequivocably that the Talmud calls Jesus a bastard or that Mary was a prostitute who had sex with many men. As has been shown, those passages definitely do not refer to Jesus.
    Note: The wording of the texts was taken from Chisronot Hashas, originally printed in Koenigsberg in 1860 and reprinted in Tel Aviv in 1989. The text of the Tosefta was taken from the standard Vilna edition and slightly modified based on Saul Lieberman's Tosefet Rishonim.

    ===

    (source: The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud)

  2. #202
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    What an eisegese... and no Biblical proof.. really scary doctrine.
    Matthew 12

    22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

    25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

    30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

  3. #203
    Senior Member zone's Avatar
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    Conclusion
    It seems clear by now that there is no consensus whether Jesus is mentioned at all in the Talmud. Most of the supposed "blasphemies" of Jesus and Mary in the Talmud do not refer to them at all. However, there can be no denying, and no rabbi would deny this, that the authors of the Talmud did not believe in Jesus' messiahship or his divinity. If you are looking for Christian fellowship then Jewish literature is not the place to look. However, there is no basis at all to state unequivocably that the Talmud calls Jesus a bastard or that Mary was a prostitute who had sex with many men. As has been shown, those passages definitely do not refer to Jesus.
    Note: The wording of the texts was taken from Chisronot Hashas, originally printed in Koenigsberg in 1860 and reprinted in Tel Aviv in 1989. The text of the Tosefta was taken from the standard Vilna edition and slightly modified based on Saul Lieberman's Tosefet Rishonim.

    ===

    (source: The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud)
    yes of course.
    did you think they would not try to hide it?

    have fun down the rabbit hole dutch. BEEN THERE DONE THAT.

    TRY THIS FORMER JEW NOW CHRISTIAN, .....he'll answer your emails.:

    Hidden Works of Darkness Brought to Public Light

    or you could go to:

    The Jewish Encyclopedia says that Jesus is described in the Talmud.

    "The Jewish legends in regard to Jesus are found in three sources, each independent of the others—(1) in New Testament apocrypha and Christian polemical works, (2) in the Talmud and the Midrash, and (3) in the life of Jesus ("Toledot Yeshu'") that originated in the Middle Ages. It is the tendency of all these sources to be-little the person of Jesus by ascribing to him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death. In view of their general character they are called indiscriminately legends."

    "It is certain, in any case, that the rabbinical sources also regard Jesus as the "son of Pandera", although it is noteworthy that he is called also "Ben Sṭada" (Shab. 104b; Sanh. 67a)."

    "According to Celsus (in Origen, "Contra Celsum," i. 28) and to the Talmud
    (Shab. 104b), Jesus learned magic in Egypt and performed his miracles by means of it;"


    "Different in nature is the witchcraft attributed to Jesus in the "Toledot."

    "A passage of the Talmud (Sanh. 43a) ascribes five disciples to Jesus: "Matthai" (Matthew), "Nakai" (Luke), "Nezer" (Nazarene, a general designation for Christian in antiquity), "Boni" (probably the Nicodemus mentioned by John), and "Thoda" (Thaddæus). The following are mentioned in the "Toledot" (Huldricus, p. 35): "Simeon" (Peter), "Matthia" (Matthew), "Elikum" (Luke), "Mordecai" (Mark), "Thoda" (Thaddæus), and "Johannos" (John)—that is, the four evangelists plus Peter and Thaddæus. Paul is mentioned in another connection, and (p. 48) Judas "the betrayer": it is to be noted that the last-named does not occur at all in Talmudic legends."

    "some medieval apologists for Judaism, as Naḥmanides and Salman Ẓebi, based on this fact their assertion that the "Yeshu'" mentioned in the Talmud was not identical with Jesus; this,however, is merely a subterfuge."

    "Jesus performed all his miracles by means of magic"

    LINK: jewishencyclopedia.com - Jesus


    i won't be wasting any time trying to stop you from defending the Talmud.

  4. #204
    Dutch41
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by zone
    THE CONSUMMATION - TITUS - 70AD - DESTROYED THE TEMPLE MOUNT
    Quote Originally Posted by zone
    and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined

    and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    A tradition is recorded in the Talmud (Tractate Megillah 17b, Rashi) that the Sanhedrin will be restored after a partial ingathering of the Jewish exiles, but before Jerusalem is completely rebuilt and restored.


    Another Talmudic tradition (Eruvin 43b; Maharatz Chajas ad loc; Rashash to Sanhedrin 13b) states that Elijah the Prophet will present himself before a duly-ordained Sanhedrin when he announces the coming of the Messiah. This indicates that despite common misconceptions, a Sanhedrin is a pre-, not post-messianic institution.
    IF YOU STILL WANT TO PLAY RIGHTEOUS GENTILE WITH THE SANHEDRIN, AND HELP REINSTITUTE AND GIVE LIFE TO THE PLACE JESUS CHRIST LEFT DESOLATE, AND CALL IT GOOD, be my guest.

    i won't be joining you. if you want to BLESS THE TALMUDISTS (a la Hagee) be my guest. i won't be joining you in that either.


    Well, the last sentence
    Quote Originally Posted by zone
    i won't be joining you. if you want to BLESS THE TALMUDISTS (a la Hagee) be my guest. i won't be joining you in that either


    That is another subject...But I notice, you are very good at changing a subject when some is difficult
    We have to bless everybody.. even your enemy's that is an order of the Lord.

    A little story.. When I was last year at the praying wall in Jerusalem.. we where singing and blessing the people of Israel.. and that their harts will be open for Jesus.. At the moment that we stopped. There was a traditional Jewish lady who asked us why we stopped.. Because she was very touched by the singing..

    Another lady.. from my group... came to her.. and the Jewish lady asked to be blessed by her. No she wasn't a Messianic Jew.. but an orthodox...

    But back to Mt Moriah: Interesting is to see.. it is a proof for you it got an deadly wound and now it is resurrected.

    (Some what you can't prove.. but like I said earlier.. this is only eisegese you put your idea of thinking in a Bibletext without a biblical foundation)

    And for convenience you forget the complete context... and it seems that only a few understand what is happen because I missed the complete point.. Well I want to understand your point..

    So I will first quote myself again:
    So actually you agree satan will come with wonders and sign. What for wonders and sign? The fall of Jerusalem?

    Jesus said in Mt 24:24
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Back to Rev 13:13.. what for miracles was happen, in 70 AD? Nothing.. no miracles. No deceiving for the Christians. Totally out of the context..

    but what is John pointed at? Rev 13:13
    And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

    What for sign is this? Well I think we have to remeber here at Elia,
    1King 18:38 -39
    Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
    And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and they said, "The LORD, He is the God! The LORD, He is the God!"

    Or 2King 1:10-12
    And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, "If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume thee and thy fifty." And there came down fire from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.
    Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, "O man of God, thus hath the king said, ‘Come down quickly.’" And Elijah answered and said unto them, "If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume thee and thy fifty." And the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

    It was a sign, that God was with Eliah.. comparing Lc 9:5
    4 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did?"

    But that wasn't happen in 70 AD.


    And in the context from Rev 13:12-13.
    12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him; and he causeth the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.


    so.. I am curious about the wonders and sign from Mt Moriah.. can you show me? The Mt Moriah is under protection by the P.A. only if I am correct between 11.00 and 12.00 h is it allowed to enter the temple square.. for Jews and other people. For the rest, it is only for the muslims.

    Your biblical foundation is a Jewish orthodox group... not the government.. What for the main part a secular government is.

    Interesting is true: the 3th Temple... what is coming and where he, the beast is making his throne, and do his wonders... but the he.. mt Moriah wasn't dead and wasn't resurrected

    That the 3th temple will be build here.. I agree.. That there the anti-christ will set him self in there.. I agree too... But for the rest...we got a real different point of view




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    Last edited by Dutch41; March 19th, 2011 at 02:54 PM.

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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    [quote=Dutch41;404041]


    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    That is another subject...But I notice, you are very good at changing a subject when some is difficult
    We have to bless everybody.. even your enemy's that is an order of the Lord.


    sorry dutch.
    i won't be blessing people who commit the unpardonable sin teach others to do so.
    most assuredly not on a Christian website.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    A little story.. When I was last year at the praying wall in Jerusalem.. we where singing and blessing the people of Israel.. and that their harts will be open for Jesus.. At the moment that we stopped. There was a traditional Jewish lady who asked us why we stopped.. Because she was very touched by the singing..

    Another lady.. from my group... came to her.. and the Jewish lady asked to be blessed by her. No she wasn't a Messianic Jew.. but an orthodox...


    that's awesome!
    unfortunately by believing jews can wait for a nonexistent millennium we're hurting them, not helping.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    But back to Mt Moriah: Interesting is to see.. it is a proof for you it got an deadly wound and now it is resurrected.

    (Some what you can't prove.. but like I said earlier.. this is only eisegese you put your idea of thinking in a Bibletext without a biblical foundation)


    are you familiar with the condition of Jerusalem after 70AD dutch?
    try Jospehus.
    DESOLATE.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    And for convenience you forget the complete context... and it seems that only a few understand what is happen because I missed the complete point.. Well I want to understand your point..

    So I will first quote myself again:

    And in the context from Rev 13:12-13.
    12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him; and he causeth the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

    so.. I am curious about the wonders and sign from Mt Moriah.. can you show me?


    uh...hasn't happened yet dutch.
    when animal sacrifices are reinstituted, and fire comes down from heaven to consume the "offering"...well what a show that will be that God is pleased.

    you seem to think i am a full preterist. i'm not


    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    The Mt Moriah is under protection by the P.A. only if I am correct between 11.00 and 12.00 h is it allowed to enter the temple square.. for Jews and other people. For the rest, it is only for the muslims.

    Your biblical foundation is a Jewish orthodox group... not the government.. What for the main part a secular government is.


    HUH?
    um....dutch....you were there.
    can you see where its all headed?

    a temple? sacrifices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    Interesting is true: the 3th Temple... what is coming and where he, the beast is making his throne, and do his wonders... but the he.. mt Moriah wasn't dead and wasn't resurrected


    read history. DESOLATE

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    That the 3th temple will be build here.. I agree.. That there the anti-christ will set him self in there.. I agree too... But for the rest...we got a real different point of view
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    fer sher.

  6. #206
    Dutch41
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    [quote=zone;404050]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post




    sorry dutch.
    i won't be blessing people who commit the unpardonable sin teach others to do so.
    most assuredly not on a Christian website.
    [/color][/font][/size]
    Well that is your choice.. I will bless and pray for them

    that's awesome!
    unfortunately by believing jews can wait for a nonexistent millennium we're hurting them, not helping.
    [/color][/font][/size]
    Read Rom 11
    are you familiar with the condition of Jerusalem after 70AD dutch?
    try Jospehus.
    DESOLATE.
    [/color][/font][/size]
    More as you.. I have the books from Josephus zone

    uh...hasn't happened yet dutch.
    when animal sacrifices are reinstituted, and fire comes down from heaven to consume the "offering"...well what a show that will be that God is pleased.

    you seem to think i am a full preterist. i'm not[/font][/size]
    Well no, because you are doing eisegese.


    HUH?
    um....dutch....you were there.
    can you see where its all headed?

    a temple? sacrifices?
    [/b]

    read history. DESOLATE
    [/size][/font]
    Don't know what you mean by this.. maybe I am not clear.. Sorry, for that, English isn't my favourite language.



    comee zone, I want to see arguments.. not such easy reply.. but instead that you copy and past..
    maybe it is good to have a real study..

  7. #207
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post

    comee zone, I want to see arguments.. not such easy reply.. but instead that you copy and past..
    maybe it is good to have a real study..

    what would you like to study dutch? you start.

  8. #208
    Dutch41
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    yes of course.
    did you think they would not try to hide it?

    have fun down the rabbit hole dutch. BEEN THERE DONE THAT.

    TRY THIS FORMER JEW NOW CHRISTIAN, .....he'll answer your emails.:

    Hidden Works of Darkness Brought to Public Light

    or you could go to:

    The Jewish Encyclopedia says that Jesus is described in the Talmud.

    "The Jewish legends in regard to Jesus are found in three sources, each independent of the others—(1) in New Testament apocrypha and Christian polemical works, (2) in the Talmud and the Midrash, and (3) in the life of Jesus ("Toledot Yeshu'") that originated in the Middle Ages. It is the tendency of all these sources to be-little the person of Jesus by ascribing to him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death. In view of their general character they are called indiscriminately legends."

    "It is certain, in any case, that the rabbinical sources also regard Jesus as the "son of Pandera", although it is noteworthy that he is called also "Ben Sṭada" (Shab. 104b; Sanh. 67a)."

    "According to Celsus (in Origen, "Contra Celsum," i. 28) and to the Talmud
    (Shab. 104b), Jesus learned magic in Egypt and performed his miracles by means of it;"


    "Different in nature is the witchcraft attributed to Jesus in the "Toledot."

    "A passage of the Talmud (Sanh. 43a) ascribes five disciples to Jesus: "Matthai" (Matthew), "Nakai" (Luke), "Nezer" (Nazarene, a general designation for Christian in antiquity), "Boni" (probably the Nicodemus mentioned by John), and "Thoda" (Thaddæus). The following are mentioned in the "Toledot" (Huldricus, p. 35): "Simeon" (Peter), "Matthia" (Matthew), "Elikum" (Luke), "Mordecai" (Mark), "Thoda" (Thaddæus), and "Johannos" (John)—that is, the four evangelists plus Peter and Thaddæus. Paul is mentioned in another connection, and (p. 48) Judas "the betrayer": it is to be noted that the last-named does not occur at all in Talmudic legends."

    "some medieval apologists for Judaism, as Naḥmanides and Salman Ẓebi, based on this fact their assertion that the "Yeshu'" mentioned in the Talmud was not identical with Jesus; this,however, is merely a subterfuge."

    "Jesus performed all his miracles by means of magic"
    Yes, I think you want to believe this.. because otherwise you have to change your vision.. That is your choice

    If you want to do some study The Real Truth About The Talmud

  9. #209
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    [size=2][color=black]

    Yes, I think you want to believe this.. because otherwise you have to change your vision.. That is your choice

    If you want to do some study The Real Truth About The Talmud
    hi dutch.
    i'm familiar with that site.
    do you have any other links?

    did you go to the jewish encyclopedia link i provided, which says that denial of Jeshu being Jesus is subterfuge? why would jewish encyclopedia lie?

  10. #210
    Dutch41
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by zone View Post
    hi dutch.
    i'm familiar with that site.
    do you have any other links?

    did you go to the jewish encyclopedia link i provided, which says that denial of Jeshu being Jesus is subterfuge? why would jewish encyclopedia lie?


    Yes, I have more sources But it is for me to much to translate it.

    Peter Steffens.. A Jew either..and a Christian too.. understand the role from the Talmud,....

    I am familar too with the Jewish encyclopedia.. Why would the site lie? Interesting question.. I didn't write the site, but I dont think the site gave the full information.


    But some other people:

    Like the Prof. Peter Schäfer Professor of Jewish Studies and Professsor of Religion. Director, Program in Judaic Studies.said:
    The historical Jesus does not appear in our rabbinic sources; they do not provide any historical ‘facts’ that deviate from the New Testament and therefore must be taken seriously (Jesus in the Talmud)


    David Flusser wrote in Jewish Sources in Early Christianity

    His full name was thus Yeshua. In the Talmudic sources, which are from a later period, there is reference to a Rabbi Yeshu, who is not to be confused with Jesus.



    Even Morris Goldstein didn't believe that the Yeshu the Jesus from Nazareth was:
    (See the book Jesus in the Jewish Tradition)


    Rabbi Adin Steinsalz (whose Talmud is translated into English, Russian and Spanish, said he believed the Talmudic Jesus is probably not the Christian Jesus: The Talmud: The Steinsaltz Edition.

    "It could very well be somebody else" who lived 100 or 200 years earlier because the stories don't match the Gospel account. The Hebrew name Yeshu was popular back then and that "stories about the resurrection of dead leaders are a dime a dozen, before Jesus and after him. This is not a historical issue."



    So, for now it is enough..


    Last edited by Dutch41; March 20th, 2011 at 04:03 PM.

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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post

    I am familar too with the Jewish encyclopedia.. Why would the site lie? Interesting question.. I didn't write the site, but I dont think the site gave the full information.




    Birth of Jesus.
    The Jews, who are represented as inimical to Jesus in the canonical Gospels also, took him to be legitimate and born in an entirely natural manner. A contrary statement as to their attitude is expressed for the first time in the "Acts of Pilate" ("Gospel of Nicodemus," ed. Thilo, in "Codex Apoc. Novi Testamenti," i. 526, Leipsic, 1832; comp. Origen, "Contra Celsum," i. 28). Celsus makes the same statement in another passage, where he refers even to a written source (ἀναγέγραπται), adding that the seducer was a soldier by the name of Panthera (l.c. i. 32). The name "Panthera" occurs here for the first time; two centuries later it occurs in Epiphanius ("Hæres." lxxviii. 7), who ascribes the surname "Panther" to Jacob, an ancestor of Jesus; and John of Damascus ("De Orthod. Fide." iv., § 15) includes the names "Panther" and "Barpanther" in the genealogy of Mary. It is certain, in any case, that the rabbinical sources also regard Jesus as the "son of Pandera" (), although it is noteworthy that he is called also "Ben Sṭada" () (Shab. 104b; Sanh. 67a).

    It appears from this passage that, aside from Pandera and Sṭada, the couple Pappus b. Judah and Miriam the hairdresser were taken to be the parents of Jesus. Pappus has nothing to do with the story of Jesus, and was only connected with it because his wife happened to be called "Miriam" (= "Mary"), and was known to be an adulteress.

    The one statement in which all these confused legends agree is that relating to the birth of Jesus. Although this is ascribed only to the Jews, even in Celsus, the Jews need not necessarily be regarded as its authors, for it is possible that it originated among heretics inimical to Jesus, as the Ophites and Cainites, of whom Origen says "they uttered such hateful accusations against Jesus as Celsus himself did" ("Contra Celsum," iii. 13). It is probable, furthermore, that the accusation of illegitimacy was not originally considered so serious; it was ascribed to the most prominent personages, and is a standing motive in folk-lore (Krauss, "Leben Jesu," p. 214).

    The incident of Jesus concerning the dispute with the Scribes was copied by the rabbinical sources (Kallah 18b [ed. Venice, 1528, fol. 41c]; comp. N. Coronel, "Comment. Quinque," p. 3b, Vienna, 1864, and "Batte Midrashot," ed. Wertheimer, iii. 23, Jerusalem, 1895). All the "Toledot" editions contain a similar story of a dispute which Jesus carried on with the Scribes, who, on the ground of that dispute, declared him to be a bastard. Analogous to this story are numerous tales of predictions by precocious boys.

    Sojourn in Egypt.
    The sojourn of Jesus in Egypt is an essential part of the story of his youth. According to the Gospels he was in that country in his early infancy, but Celsus says that he was in service there and learned magic; hence he was there in early manhood. This assumption may serve to throw more light on the obscure history of Jesus than the account found in the Gospels. The Talmud also says that Jesus was in Egypt in early manhood. R. Joshua b. Peraḥyah is said to have fled with his pupil Jesus to Alexandria in order to escape the persecutions of the Jewish king Yannai (103-76 B.C.); on their return Jesus made a remark on the not faultless beauty of their hostess, whereupon R. Joshua excommunicated him; and when Jesus approached him again and was not received he set up a brick for his god, and led all Israel into apostasy (Sanh. 107b; Soṭah 47a; Yer. Ḥag. 77d). This account is supplemented by the statement, made on the assumption that Ben Sṭada is identical with Ben Pandera, that Ben Sṭada brought magic from Egypt (Shab. 104b). The story that Joshua b. Peraḥyah, a contemporary of Simeon b. Sheṭaḥ, was the teacher of Jesus, is not clearly stated in the various "Toledot"; it is saidmerely that Jesus was named after this brother of his mother. The assumption that Joshua b. Peraḥyah was the uncle of Jesus is confirmed by Ḳirḳisani, who wrote about 937 a history of Jewish sects (ed. Harkavy, § 1, St. Petersburg, 1894; comp. "J. Q. R." vii. 687).

    The references to Yannai, Salome Alexandra, and Joshua b. Peraḥyah indicate that according to the Jewish legends the advent of Jesus took place just one century before the actual historical date; and some medieval apologists for Judaism, as Naḥmanides and Salman Ẓebi, based on this fact their assertion that the "Yeshu'" mentioned in the Talmud was not identical with Jesus; this, however, is merely a subterfuge.


    Jesus as Magician.
    According to Celsus (in Origen, "Contra Celsum," i. 28) and to the Talmud (Shab. 104b), Jesus learned magic in Egypt and performed his miracles by means of it; the latter work, in addition, states that he cut the magic formulas into his skin. It does not mention, however, the nature of his magic performances (Tosef., Shab. xi. 4; Yer. Shab. 13d); but as it states that the disciples of Jesus healed the sick "in the name of Jesus Pandera" (Yer. Shab. 14d; 'Ab. Zarah 27b; Eccl. R. i. 8) it may be assumed that its author held the miracles of Jesus also to have been miraculous cures. Different in nature is the witchcraft attributed to Jesus in the "Toledot." When Jesus was expelled from the circle of scholars, he is said to have returned secretly from Galilee to Jerusalem, where he inserted a parchment containing the "declared name of God" ("Shem ha-Meforash"), which was guarded in the Temple, into his skin, carried it away, and then, taking it out of his skin, he performed his miracles by its means. This magic formula then had to be recovered from him, and Judah the Gardener (a personage of the "Toledot" corresponding to Judas Iscariot) offered to do it; he and Jesus then engaged in an aerial battle (borrowed from the legend of Simon Magus), in which Judah remained victor and Jesus fled.

    The accusation of magic is frequently brought against Jesus. Jerome mentions it, quoting the Jews: "Magum vocant et Judæi Dominum meum" ("Ep. lv., ad Ascellam," i. 196, ed. Vallarsi); Marcus, of the sect of the Valentinians, was, according to Jerome, a native of Egypt, and was accused of being, like Jesus, a magician (Hilgenfeld, "Ketzergesch." p. 370, Leipsic, 1884). There were even Christian heretics who looked upon the founder of their religion as a magician (Fabricius, in "Codex Apocr. Novi Testamenti," iii. 396), and public opinion at Rome accused all Christians of magic (W. M. Ramsay, "The Church in the Roman Empire Before A.D. 170," pp. 236, 392, London, 1897). The Apostles were regarded in the same light ("Acta Petri et Andreæ," ed. Bonnet, § 8). Neither this accusation nor that concerning the birth of Jesus is found in the canonical Gospels, but it occurs in the apocryphal accounts; e.g., "Gesta Pilati," ii. 1; "Acta Pilati," version B, ii. 3, iii. 1; ib. i. 1 (μαγεΊαι; comp. γόης ἐστιν = "he is a magician"); ib. in ed. Tischendorf, 2d ed., p. 216, "maleficus est"; ib. p. 338 ("Zeit. für die Neutest. Wissenschaft," 1901, iii. 94), with which comp "veneficus" = "poisoner" ("Evang. Infantiæ Arab." ed. Thilo, § 36). Somewhat different is the accusation that Jesus imposed upon the people and led them astray (comp. Bischoff, "Ein Jüdisch. Deutsches Leben Jesu," p. 20, Leipsic, 1895: , often also , and in the Greek texts πλανός, λαοπλανός; comp. πλανᾷ τὸν ὅχλον = "he deceives the people"; John vii. 12). As Balaam the magician and, according to the derivation of his name, "destroyer of the people," was from both of these points of view a good prototype of Jesus, the latter was also called "Balaam."

    cont.........

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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?




    The Disciples of Jesus.
    Celsus (i. 62) says there were ten or eleven apostles. A passage of the Talmud (Sanh. 43a) ascribes five disciples to Jesus: "Matthai" (Matthew), "Nakai" (Luke), "Nezer" (Nazarene, a general designation for Christian in antiquity), "Boni" (probably the Nicodemus mentioned by John), and "Thoda" (Thaddæus). The following are mentioned in the "Toledot" (Huldricus, p. 35): "Simeon" (Peter), "Matthia" (Matthew), "Elikum" (Luke), "Mordecai" (Mark), "Thoda" (Thaddæus), and "Johannos" (John)—that is, the four evangelists plus Peter and Thaddæus. Paul is mentioned in another connection, and (p. 48) Judas "the betrayer": it is to be noted that the last-named does not occur at all in Talmudic legends. The Twelve Apostles are mentioned in other versions of the "Toledot" (ed. Wagenseil, p. 19; ed. Bischoff, p. 21), while still other versions frequently mention a following of 300, 310, 320, 330 men. It is especially striking that all these disciples are described as eminently wise and learned, while according to Celsus (i. 63, ii. 46) the disciples of Jesus were common men, toll-keepers and seamen, an assumption that agrees to some extent with the canonical Gospels.

    The Doctrines of Jesus.
    In all the editions of the "Toledot" the doctrine of Jesus is summed up in the statements that he was the son of God, born of a virgin mother, a descendant of David and the promised Messiah; this he proved from passages of Scripture, in the rabbinic-Talmudic manner. In connection with these statements he is also represented as engaging in disputations with Jewish scholars. The only specifically Christian doctrine mentioned by the Talmud is (Shab. 116a, b) that the law of Moses has been annulled and the Gospels put in its place—the well-known Christian doctrine of the abrogation of the Law; the saying of Jesus, "I have not come to take away the law of Moses, but to add to it," is also cited (ib.). In the "Toledot" the doctrine of abrogation is put into the mouth of Peter, and the latter, secretly intending to separate the Christians from the community in the interest of the Jews, promulgates the following tenets: Jesus suffered the pain and punishment of death in order to redeem from hell those that believe in him (comp. I Cor. xv. 26, 55); believers shall not hurt the Jews (comp. Acts iii. 26); one who deserves to be accompanied one mile only shall be accompanied two miles; both cheeks shall be offered if one cheek has been struck (comp. Matt. v. 39-41); instead of the Sabbath, Sunday shall be kept holy; Easter shall be celebrated instead of the Passover, Pentecost instead of the Feast of Weeks, etc.; circumcision is abrogated, and the dietary laws annulled. All these doctrinesare merely external, while the essential points of the teachings of Jesus are hardly alluded to.

    Jesus performed all his miracles by means of magic, as stated above. These miracles are not specified in the Talmud, but they are in the "Tole-dot"; they are partly such as are mentioned in the Gospels, as the healing of the halt, blind, and leprous, and are somewhat different in nature, though based on the Gospels, as the story of Jesus walking on the sea on a heavy millstone ("Toledot"—ed. Wagenseil, p. 14; ed. Huldricus, p. 43; ed. Bischoff, p. 25; MS. Adler, in Krauss, "Leben Jesu," p. 119; comp. Matt. xiv. 25, xviii. 6). Other miracles are derived from apocryphal accounts, as the story that Jesus fashioned birds from clay or marble and put life into them; this occurs also in the "Gospel of Thomas," in "Evang. Infantiæ Arab." § 36 (Thilo, ib. i. 111), and in the Koran. These legends are much amplified in the later "Toledot," although the substance remains the same.

    Trial and Death of Jesus.
    The Talmudic account of the manner of executing a person guilty of leading the people astray (Sanh. 67a) would be of signal historical importance if it were certain that it referred to Jesus. The proceeding against one who incites others to deny the religion of their fathers consists in convicting him of his guilt by means of concealed witnesses, as follows: The accused is placed in an inner room with a light, so that witnesses unknown to him and watching him from an outer room can see and hear him clearly. Then a companion says to him: "Tell me again what you told me in confidence [in regard to renouncing our religion]." If he does so, the other replies: "How could we leave our God in heaven and serve idols?" If he recants now, it is well; but if he says, "It is our duty and we must do it," then the witnesses outside take him into court and he is stoned. "Thus they did with Ben Sṭada at Lydda, who was hanged on the eve of the Passover." This passage refers to Jesus only if he is regarded as identical with Ben Sṭada; this can hardly be assumed in view of the reference to Lydda. The frequently repeated statement that Jesus was condemned for inciting to apostasy () is based on Sanh. 43a; there is added the entirely improbable statement that forty days before the condemnation of Jesus a herald called upon any one who could say anything in his favor to come forward and testify, but that no one appeared.

    The proceeding is related very differently in the "Toledot"; although the several editions of the same differ in detail they agree in substance. The following account is found in a rather old edition (see Krauss, l.c. pp. 43 et seq.). The scholars of Israel took Jesus into the synagogue of Tiberias and bound him to a pillar; when his followers came to liberate him, a battle occurred in which the Jewish party was worsted and his disciples took him to Antiochia. On the eve of Passover he entered Jerusalem riding on an ass (comp. Matt. xxi. 4-17), disguised—according to several editions—so that his former disciple Judas had to betray him in order to secure his seizure. He was executed on the eve of the Passover festival, which was also the eve of the Sabbath. The executioners were not able to hang him upon a tree, for he had conjured all trees, by means of the name of God, not to receive him, and therefore they all broke; he was finally received by a large cabbagestalk (comp. Targ. Sheni to Esth. vii. 9). He was buried on the same day, in conformity with the Law, and the apostates, his disciples, wept at his tomb.

    According to the "Toledot" his disciples sought for his body in the tomb, but being unable to find it they used the incident as proof before Queen Helena that he who had been slain had ascended into heaven. It then appeared that a man—sometimes called "Judas the Gardener" (Judas Iscariot), sometimes, indefinitely, the "master of the garden"—had taken the body out of the grave, used it as a dam to keep the water out of his garden, and had flooded the tomb. Then there was joy again in Israel; the body was taken before the queen at Jerusalem, and the Christians were shamed. Three points deserve notice in this account: (1) The fact that the body was stolen. According to Matt. xxvii. 64, the Pharisees asked Pilate to guard the tomb so that the disciples might not steal the body and say that Jesus had ascended into heaven; but when the report was nevertheless circulated that Jesus had ascended, the Pharisees bribed the soldiers to say that the body had been stolen by the disciples (Matt. xxviii. 13). The "Gospel of Nikodemus," § 13 (Thilo, ib. i. 616), adds that the Jews still persisted in this statement. A similar story is known to Justin ("Dial. cum Tryph." § 108; comp. § 17) and Eusebius ("Hist. Eccl." ch. iv. 18), while in the pseudo-Clementine "Recognitiones" (i., § 42) this assertion is ascribed to "others" (probably the Jews). (2) The statement of the theft of the body and the statement of the gardener who was afraid that the multitude of disciples might destroy his lettuce-beds were both known to Tertullian ("De Spectaculis," § 30). (3) The insult offered to the body in the streets of Jerusalem is alluded to in the Koran (see below).

    The Resurrection.
    It is clear, therefore, that the Jewish legends deny the resurrection of Jesus; the halakic assertion that Balaam (i.e., the prototype of Jesus) had no part in the future life must also be especially noted (Sanh. x. 2). It is further said: "The pupils of the recreant Balaam inherit hell" (Abot v. 19). Jesus is accordingly, in the following curious Talmudic legend, thought to sojourn in hell. A certain Onḳelos b. Ḳaloniḳos, son of Titus' sister, desired to embrace Judaism, and called up from hell by magic first Titus, then Balaam, and finally Jesus, who are here taken together as the worst enemies of Judaism. He asked Jesus: "Who is esteemed in that world?" Jesus said: "Israel." "Shall one join them?" Jesus said to him: "Further their well-being; do nothing to their detriment; whoever touches them touches even the apple of His eye." Onḳelos then asked the nature of his punishment, and was told that it was the degrading fate of those who mock the wise (Giṭ. 56b-57a). This most revolting passage was applied in the Middle Ages to another Jesus (e.g., by R. Jeḥiel, in the Paris disputation; "Wikkuaḥ," p. 4, Thorn, 1873). A parallel to the story is found in the statement of the "Toledot" that when Judas found he could not touch Jesus in any way in theaerial battle, he defiled him. This feature naturally especially angered Christians (see Wagenseil, "Tela Ignea Satanæ," p. 77). According to a passage in the Zohar (Steinschneider, "Polemische Litteratur," p. 362) the same degrading fate is meted out to both Jesus and Mohammed.

    Legends regarding Jesus are found in Mohammedan folk-lore. Although the innocence of Mary is most emphatically asserted, there are such striking parallels to Jewish legends that this material must certainly have been taken from Judaism into the Koran. In that work, also, it is stated that Jesus formed birds out of clay and endowed them with life (sura iii. 43); both the Koran and Jalal al-Din (in Maracci, "Refutatio Alcorani," fol. 114b, Patavii, 1698) refer to the peculiar clothing worn by the disciples of Jesus; and in Ibn Said (Maracci, l.c. fol. 113b) is found the statement that the body of Jesus was dragged with ropes through the streets.

    Karaites and Samaritans.
    The cardinal point in the Jewish legends concerns the birth of Jesus. This question is discussed by both the Samaritans ("Chronique Samaritaine," ed. Neubauer, p. 18, Paris, 1873) and the Karaites, as may be seen in a recently published passage from the work of the Karaite Judah Hadassi ("J. Q. R." viii. 440). Other essential points are that Jesus performed his miracles by conjuring with the name of God (ib. viii. 436), and the legend appended to the "Toledot" editions regarding the finding of the cross (ib. viii. 438). The Karaites, however, had their own "Toledot." Meswi al'Akkbari, the founder of a Karaite sect, engaged in similar polemics against the Christian doctrines ("R. E. J." xxxiv. 182).

    Antichrist Legends.The Jewish legends referring to Jesus can not be regarded as originally purely Jewish, because the Christian Antichrist legends also make use of them. The Antichrist is born of a wandering virgin, the latter being, according to one version, a Danitic, hence Jewish, woman, while the father belongs to the Latin race (corresponding to the Roman soldier Panthera). Similar details are found in the Armilus legend (Bousset, "Der Antichrist," p. 99, Göttingen, 1895; Krauss, "Das Leben Jesu," p. 216).

    Bibliography: Mehlführer, Jesus in Talmude, Altorf, 1699;
    Andr. Conr. Werner, Jesus in Talmude, Stade, 1738;
    D'Herbelot, Bibliothèque, Orientale, ii. 349;
    Wagenseil, Tela Ignea Satanœ, Altorf, 1681 (where the Confutatio of the Toledot is separately paged);
    Eisenmenger, Entdecktes Judenthum, i. 105, 133, 249, passim;
    Von der Alm, Die Urtheile, Heidnischer und Jüdischer Schriftsteller über Jesus, Leipsic, 1864;
    Hoffmann, Das Leben Jesu nach den Apokryphen, ib. 1851;
    G. Rosch, Jesusmythen, in Theologische Studien und Kritiken, 1873, pp. 77-115;
    Jüdische Sagen über das Leben Jesu, by Conard, in Neue Kirchliche Zeitschrift, pp. 164-176, Erlangen and Leipsic, 1901;
    Baring-Gould, Lost and Hostile Gospels, 1875;
    Laible, Jesus Christus im Talmud (with Appendix-Die Talmudischen Texte, by G. Dalman), Berlin, 1891 (has been transl. into English);
    Krauss, Das Leben Jesu nach Jüdischen Quellen, Berlin, 1902;
    R. Travers Herford, Christianity in Talmud and Midrash, pp. 1-96, London, 1903.G. S. Kr.





  13. #213
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    so please stop defending THE GREAT HARLOT, to me OKAY?

    been here done this for 7 years.

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    Dutch41
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by zone View Post
    so please stop defending THE GREAT HARLOT, to me OKAY?

    been here done this for 7 years.
    first: you don;t have to quote all of the Jewish Encyclopedia.. I have that at my pc too. Putting the link is enough.

    second: that you are doing this for 7 year.. don't gave you the 'wisdom' or.. authority..for me that you are right.. because.. and I said this earlier.. you are doing a lot of eisegese..

    third: another subject again?? the great harlot????

    well.. okee... the great harlot are Christians with a false doctrine, idols worshipes, Christian false hate doctrines.

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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    first: you don;t have to quote all of the Jewish Encyclopedia.. I have that at my pc too. Putting the link is enough.

    second: that you are doing this for 7 year.. don't gave you the 'wisdom' or.. authority..for me that you are right.. because.. and I said this earlier.. you are doing a lot of eisegese..

    third: another subject again?? the great harlot????

    well.. okee... the great harlot are Christians with a false doctrine, idols worshipes, Christian false hate doctrines.
    but...even with all the text pasted in people do not bother reading, let alone a link. you do, so i'll keep that in mind.

    i did want to get the information out there so we can stop denying what the Talmud says.

    so you read it. does it or not talk about Jesus of Nazareth?

    the great harlot determines alot concerning the theories of so many. if they can not (or WILL NOT) correctly identify the great city, Mystery Babylon (though it is clearly explained in Scripure), they will hold to false theology which claims ancient israel is the center of The Bible and Redemptive History and future, NOT JESUS CHRIST.

    "the great harlot are Christians with a false doctrine, idols worshipes, Christian false hate doctrines"

    this is what you believe is the woman, the great city? Mystery Babylon?

    (that's what the judaizers paid Scofield to say...that's why christians do not see who the woman, which is that great city is...they're not supposed to!).

    since you are against eisegese, please show using Revelation (and any other texts) that the woman which is that great city Babylon is "Christians with a false doctrine, idols worshipes, Christian false hate doctrines"

    thank you dutch.

  16. #216
    Dutch41
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    but...even with all the text pasted in people do not bother reading, let alone a link. you do, so i'll keep that in mind.

    i did want to get the information out there so we can stop denying what the Talmud says.

    so you read it. does it or not talk about Jesus of Nazareth?
    No, it doesn't.. I think the quotes what I sent you said enough. But I see the bitterness in you, and the hate to the Jews. Very sad.

    this is what you believe is the woman, the great city? Mystery Babylon?

    (that's what the judaizers paid Scofield to say...that's why christians do not see who the woman, which is that great city is...they're not supposed to!).

    since you are against eisegese, please show using Revelation (and any other texts) that the woman which is that great city Babylon is "Christians with a false doctrine, idols worshipes, Christian false hate doctrines"

    thank you dutch.
    Yes, you are a master to change subjects.. But it I think it is fair..When I have time.. I will open another topic. And I will discus this with you.

  17. #217
    Senior Member zone's Avatar
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    No, it doesn't.. I think the quotes what I sent you said enough. But I see the bitterness in you, and the hate to the Jews. Very sad. .
    you have it all wrong dutch, sorry.

    those who promise the jews something God never promised them hate them.

    i want them to get as far away from The BABYLONIAN Talmud and get to the New Covenant...but christian zionism (dispensationalist theology) keeps them away from JESUS by leaving them trapped in a christ-hating religion.

    but your antisemitism label works on so many. after all....who wants that stigma?

    who is willing to stand in face of that?

    isn't it just better to be quiet about it all....? we don't want any trouble, right?

    WHO CARES WHAT THE TALMUD SAYS...right? after all...isn't it MOSES?

    we don't care what Jesus meant when He was in conflict with The Pharisees...that was 2,000 years ago....Babylonian Talmudism isn't the same religion today, IS IT?

    surely the trouble will come from ROME or NY won't it?

    and why bother checking into what this means:

    μυστηριον noun - nominative singular neuter
    musterion moos-tay'-ree-on: a secret or mystery (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites) -- mystery.

    who cares about secret societies that have "Solomon's Temple" as a front for what they do?

    what's that got to do with us?

    who cares if they run the Southern Baptist Convention.

    secret proceedings are ok for "christian" leaders, aren't they? we don't want to be labelled:

    ANTISEMITIC
    or
    CONSPIRACY THEORIST

    and anyways...........when all the trouble starts, i'll BE GONE IN THE RAPTURE.

    so bring it on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    Yes, you are a master to change subjects.. But it I think it is fair..When I have time.. I will open another topic. And I will discus this with you.
    its all the same subject.

    how is it the Temple Cult was in place in time to Sacrifice TheLamb exactly as prophesied here (providence, obviously):

    Genesis 3:15
    I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

    the question more precisely is....why are christians looking for some other head to be coming to life?

    who is responsible for OVERTURNING The New Testament and New Covenant in evangelical circles?

    who is responsible for not paying heed to the warnings to watch for the leaven of the Pharisees?

    how did it happen? do you know?


    trouble is, also, people don't believe Jesus when He said the Synagogue of SATAN is made up of people WHO CLAIM TO BE JEWS BUT AREN'T.

    but we can't talk about that either.
    Last edited by zone; March 21st, 2011 at 03:28 PM.

  18. #218
    Senior Member zone's Avatar
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    No, it doesn't [i.e.: THE TALMUD DOESN'T BLASPHEME CHRIST AND DESPISE GENTILES].. I think the quotes what I sent you said enough. But I see the bitterness in you, and the hate to the Jews. Very sad.
    you know....this is exactly the problem.

    we call ourselves Christians.

    and we are only too willing to sweep the most horrendous blasphemies, and threatenings against Christ and His Church found in The Serpent Cult Religion that developed in Babylon under the carpet, and worry about being called antisemites.

    we never really have the courage to see the innocent jews who are trapped in that system.

    oh! we LOVE them....to DEATH.

    we love them enough to stay quiet, and leave them to a fate that we are supposed to be able to see and testify against (as did Paul and all the others).

    i find this, as usual, reprehensible.

    John 9
    13They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. 14Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. 15So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.” 16Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them. 17So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.”

    18The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight 19and asked them, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?” 20His parents answered, “We know that this is our son and that he was born blind. 21But how he now sees we do not know, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself.” 22(His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesusa to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.) 23Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”

  19. #219
    Necto
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Zone! Is there anything, what would not you know?

  20. #220
    Dutch41
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    Quote Originally Posted by zone View Post
    you have it all wrong dutch, sorry.

    those who promise the jews something God never promised them hate them.

    i want them to get as far away from The BABYLONIAN Talmud and get to the New Covenant...but christian zionism (dispensationalist theology) keeps them away from JESUS by leaving them trapped in a christ-hating religion.

    but your antisemitism label works on so many. after all....who wants that stigma?

    who is willing to stand in face of that?
    Well, my dear zone.. you want to bless your enemy.. but you don't want to bless jews. If I am wrong.. it is your way of posting who made this.. And it is only a notice from your posting.

    isn't it just better to be quiet about it all....? we don't want any trouble, right?

    WHO CARES WHAT THE TALMUD SAYS...right? after all...isn't it MOSES?
    Well I didn't start such discussion.. again.. your way of posting.. (and I notice, not only with me)
    made this.. It is full of bitterness.. see your posting from yesterday.

    we don't care what Jesus meant when He was in conflict with The Pharisees...that was 2,000 years ago....Babylonian Talmudism isn't the same religion today, IS IT?

    surely the trouble will come from ROME or NY won't it?

    and why bother checking into what this means:
    What do you want to prove?

    μυστηριον noun - nominative singular neuter
    musterion moos-tay'-ree-on: a secret or mystery (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites) -- mystery.

    who cares about secret societies that have "Solomon's Temple" as a front for what they do?

    what's that got to do with us?

    who cares if they run the Southern Baptist Convention.

    secret proceedings are ok for "christian" leaders, aren't they? we don't want to be labelled:

    ANTISEMITIC
    or
    CONSPIRACY THEORIST

    and anyways...........when all the trouble starts, i'll BE GONE IN THE RAPTURE.

    so bring it on.
    Which rapture? I see in your posting a lot of bitterness again.. And I notice that it is difficult to keep it by one subject at a normal way..


    its all the same subject.

    how is it the Temple Cult was in place in time to Sacrifice TheLamb exactly as prophesied here (providence, obviously):

    Genesis 3:15
    I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

    the question more precisely is....why are christians looking for some other head to be coming to life?

    who is responsible for OVERTURNING The New Testament and New Covenant in evangelical circles?

    who is responsible for not paying heed to the warnings to watch for the leaven of the Pharisees?

    how did it happen? do you know?


    trouble is, also, people don't believe Jesus when He said the Synagogue of SATAN is made up of people WHO CLAIM TO BE JEWS BUT AREN'T.

    but we can't talk about that either.
    So, is it right? Do you mean by this that Gen 3:15 the snake are the Jew?

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