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Thread: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

  1. #41
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    Het gaat goed, dank je (Everything is OK, thanks) Yes it is an interesting question...And I am thinking and reading now about it. I will share some reading later..


    hi dutch:
    i think we should go back , refresh our minds ,and say to our selves. ok jesus is the greatest sacrifice
    there can be no more animal sacrifices. so what is god showing ezekiiel?
    first of all ezekiel mentioned that he was 25yrs in babylon when god showed him the vision.
    so there is another 45yrs into the captivity
    what has been shown was the future temple that is to be build in jerusalem and god is giving
    all the measurements : now if we go to ch.44:2.3 7---12 you will find that the sacrifices
    were not clean ,it was poluted,so this can not be in the 1000yrs reign.
    this temple was there when jeaus was born,jesus walked trough that gate,and he ate his bread there.
    and this temple was destroyed by the romans in 70 ad.
    regards
    wakeup.

  2. #42
    endofallfears
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    We see the work of our Lord in the Restoration Period prior to the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom.

    “ Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
    And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,

    ‘ He who scattered Israel will gather him,
    And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
    11 For the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
    And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.
    12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
    Streaming to the goodness of the LORD—
    For wheat and new wine and oil,
    For the young of the flock and the herd;
    Their souls shall be like a well-watered garden,
    And they shall sorrow no more at all. (Jer 31:10-12)


    God will restore the nation of Israel, for they will now recognize Jesus as Messiah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Those survivors who did not bow the knee to Antichrist will come to the Holy Mountain, yet at this point Jerusalem will be in ruins due to the seventh bowl judgment.

    20 And it shall come to pass in that day
    That the remnant of Israel,
    And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob,
    Will never again depend on him who defeated them,
    But will depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

    21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob,
    To the Mighty God. (Isaiah 10:20, 21)


    God will call all survivors of the Gentile nations to His holy mountain, Mt. Zion.

    16 For by fire and by His sword
    The LORD will judge all flesh;
    And the slain of the LORD shall be many.

    18 “For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory.
    19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul[a] and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. (Isaiah 66:16,18, 19)

    The Restoration of the Temple.

    12 Then speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, saying:
    “ Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH!
    From His place He shall branch out,
    And He shall build the temple of the LORD;

    13 Yes, He shall build the temple of the LORD.
    He shall bear the glory,
    And shall sit and rule on His throne;
    So He shall be a priest on His throne,
    And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”’ (Zech 6:12, 13)


    Christ will establish His rule upon the earth, as we are told,

    11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
    13 “ I was watching in the night visions,
    And behold, One like the Son of Man,
    Coming with the clouds of heaven!
    He came to the Ancient of Days,
    And they brought Him near before Him.
    14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
    That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    Which shall not pass away,
    And His kingdom the one
    Which shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:11-14)


    Concerning this scene, Paul tells us,

    24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (1 Cor 15:24-26)

    In the Millennial kingdom, all nations will not only serve and honor God, they will also serve His chosen nation Israel, as we are told,

    22 Thus says the Lord GOD:
    “ Behold, I will lift My hand in an oath to the nations,
    And set up My standard for the peoples;
    They shall bring your sons in their arms,
    And your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders;
    23 Kings shall be your foster fathers,
    And their queens your nursing mothers;
    They shall bow down to you with their faces to the earth,
    And lick up the dust of your feet.
    Then you will know that I am the LORD,
    For they shall not be ashamed who wait for Me.” (Isaiah 49:22-23)


    Revelation 20:1-4; 21:1-2 tell us the events which make up the first day of the Millennial Kingdom.

    Satan will be bound, the Sheep and Goat Judgment of Christ, the resurrection of the “beheaded” tribulation martyrs, the new heaven and new earth, the descent of the New Jerusalem, the bride, down to earth. Then comes the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, for Christ said, “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.” (Mt. 26:29)

    The nations will serve for a thousand years, many of those men and women coming to salvation through His gentle rulership of the nations, we his servants teaching and guiding through our lives, and being able to see Christ himself on the throne. Yet, at the end of those years, Satan will be given a season and the nations will be tested, and many will fail. The final battle will be swift and terrible for those who rebel and come against Israel and the throne of Christ. In the end, Satan is cast down for all time, and eternity takes another step forward, to be with Him forever.

    I look forward in eternity to seek out each and every one of you, and call you brother, sister, and friend.

    To answer a particular question of my good sister, whom I love, I believe the Millennium is meant as a testimony of what should have happened when Jesus presented himself to Israel as Messiah.

    It would have been the Romans, not the Jews who condemned Christ to the cross, and after the resurrection the 70th week would have begun.

    The time of the Gentiles would have been for the 1000 years, then Satan would have been released for a season. From that time, eternity with Jesus Christ our Lord would begin.

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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by endofallfears View Post
    To answer a particular question of my good sister, whom I love, I believe the Millennium is meant as a testimony of what should have happened when Jesus presented himself to Israel as Messiah.

    It would have been the Romans, not the Jews who condemned Christ to the cross, and after the resurrection the 70th week would have begun.

    The time of the Gentiles would have been for the 1000 years, then Satan would have been released for a season. From that time, eternity with Jesus Christ our Lord would begin.
    so, the Kingdom (offered to the jews) was postponed and given to the gentiles? Plan B?
    love you too endof.
    Last edited by zone; March 8th, 2011 at 10:49 PM.

  4. #44
    Heremon
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    The last nine chapters of Ezekiel, to me, serve almost as a test case for God's people. These concluding chapters of Ezekiel form a kind of continental divide in the area of Biblical interpretation. It is one of the areas where the literal interpretation of the Bible and the spiritualizing or allegorizing method diverge widely. Here amillennialists and premillennialists are miles apart. When thirty-nine chapters of Ezekiel can be treated detailedly and seriously as well as literally, there is no valid reason for treating this large division of the book in an entirely different manner.
    God will fulfill His covenant promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God's "chosen people" will enjoy their "promised land" some day, after they have experienced national regeneration (Jer. 31:31-34; Rom. 11:25-26). Not just for the Church, but also for Israel, "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29). I would now like to present six arguments in support of, a literal interpretation of Ezekiel 40-48:

    1. A careful reading of Ezekiel 40-42 gives one the clear impression of a future literal Temple for Israel because of the immense number of details concerning its dimensions, its parts and its contents. Surely, if so much space in the Holy Scriptures is given to a detailed description of this Temple, we are safe in assuming that it will be as literal as the Tabernacle and the Temple of Solomon. The fact that its structure and ceremonies will have a definite symbolical and spiritual significance cannot be used as an argument against its literal existence. For the Tabernacle was a literal structure in spite of the fact that it was filled with symbolic and typical significance. Such reasoning might easily deny the literalness of Christ's glorious Second Coming on the basis that the passages which describe His coming are filled with symbolical expressions ( Matthew 24 and Revelation 19).


    2. Ezekiel was given specific instructions to "declare all thou seest to the house of Israel" (40:4), which seems strange if the Temple were to symbolize only general truths. Even more significant is the fact that the Israelites were to "keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them" (43:11). This is an exact parallel to the pattern of the Tabernacle which Moses saw in the Mount, and which God commanded him to construct (Exodus 25:8,9).

    3. All will agree that the Temple of Ezekiel 8-11 was the literal Temple of Ezekiel's day, even though the prophet saw it "in the visions of God" (8:3) while he himself was still in Babylon (8:1). In these four chapters we find mention of "the door of the gate of the inner court" (8:3), "the porch" (8:16), "the altar" (8:16), "the threshold of the house" (9:3), and "the east gate of Jehovah's house" (10:19). Now without any indication whatever than an ideal temple instead of a literal Temple is being set forth in chapters 40-42, we find similar if not identical descriptive formulas being used: "in the visions of God" (40:2; cf. 8:3), "a gate to the inner court" (40:27; cf. 8:3), "the porch of the house" (40:48; cf. 8:16), "the altar" (43:18; cf. 8:16), and "the gate which looketh towards the east" (43:3; cf. 10:19), through which the glory of the God of Israel is seen returning, exactly as He had departed, according to 10:19 and 11:23. Now if the Millennial Temple is not to be a reality, then why insist that the return of the God of Israel is to be a reality?

    4. Ezekiel is not the only Old Testament prophet who saw a future, glorious Temple for God's chosen people Israel, complete with animal sacrifices, in the Holy Land: Joel 3:18, Isaiah 2:3/ 60:13, Daniel 9:24 and Haggai 2:7,9 (additional verses where animal sacrifices in a millenial temple are prophesied: Isaiah 56:6-7/ 60:7, Jeremiah 33:18, Zechariah 14:16-21).

    5. God has definitely promised to the line of Zadok an everlasting priesthood (1 Sam. 2:35; 1 Kings 2:27,35). This confirms God's promise of an everlasting priesthood to Zadok's ancestor Phinehas (Num. 25:13), which also confirms His promise of an everlasting priesthood to Phinehas' grandfather Aaron (Exodus 29:9; 40:15). Furthermore, this promise of an everlasting priesthood was strongly confirmed by God through Jeremiah 33:17-22, who links the perpetuity of the Levitical priests with the perpetuity of the Davidic Kingship and the perpetuity of the earth's rotation on its axis. In view of these promises of God, confirmed again and again, it is highly significant that the Millennial Temple of Ezekiel will have the sons of Zadok as its priests! (40:46, 44:15). God apparently means what He says! The intrinsic probability of this being fulfilled literally is strengthened tremendously by the mention of 12,000 Levites who will be sealed by God during the yet future seventieth week of Daniel (Rev. 7:7). If these are literal Levites it would hardly be consistent to maintain that the Temple is spiritual or figurative. And if God's promises to Aaron, Phinehas, and Zadok are spiritualized, how can we insist that His promises to David will be fulfilled literally (2 Sam. 7:13,16)?

    6. The millennial system of sacrifices described by Ezekiel differs profoundly from the Aaronic system, so that it is not simply a reinstitution of Mosaic Judaism as many have claimed. These changes could not have escaped the notice of post-captivity Jews, such as Zerubbabel and Joshua, who, seeing the glorious context into which Ezekiel placed these new ordinances, would have realized immediately that the prophecy could only be fulfilled in the kingdom age. Therefore, they made no effort to build such a temple after the exile. There will be no Ark of the Covenant, Table of the Law, Cherubim, Mercy Seat, Veil, Golden Candlestick, or Table of Showbread. Instead of a high priest, there will be a prince who has some royal and priestly powers, but will actually be neither king nor high priest. The Levites will have fewer temple privileges except for the sons of Zadok who will serve as priests. The Feast of Pentecost is omitted as well as the great Day of Atonement, and there is no evening sacrifice. There is a wrong concept in many people's minds that animal sacrifices, during the Old Covenant before Jesus came, took away peoples sins - but this is not true. The saints who lived before Messiah came were saved by FAITH (Rom. 4:3) just like us today. The animal sacrifices were a "shadow of good things to come" pointing forward to the blood of Messiah (Jesus). It has always really been about Jesus, and not animal sacrifices. Likewise, in the coming Millennial Temple the animal sacrifices will point backward to the Blood of Jesus, which is our only atonement for sin.

    7. The only real alternatives to the literal interpretation are unbelieving modernism which does not hesitate to say that this Temple was a mere figment of Ezekiel's imagination, and a fanciful idealism, usually amillennial, which says that this Temple depicts certain realities of the Church which shall be fulfilled in our times or in the eternal state. In my opinion, such an exposition of Holy Scripture is not only fanciful but dangerous. If someone rejects the literal interpretation of the passage, and fails to find support elsewhere in Scripture for a consistent figurative or symbolic interpretation, he should confess his ignorance, leave the passage alone, and go elsewhere.

    For many centuries the Church has been subjected to various spiritualizing interpretations of Old and New Testament prophecies concerning the Second Coming of Christ. It is my prayer that God will raise up many faithful students of His Word in these last days who will search the prophetic Scriptures in the belief that God actually means what He says.


    Wayne

  5. #45


    VW
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    There is a wrong concept in many people's minds that animal sacrifices, during the Old Covenant before Jesus came, took away peoples sins - but this is not true. The saints who lived before Messiah came were saved by FAITH (Rom. 4:3) just like us today. The animal sacrifices were a "shadow of good things to come" pointing forward to the blood of Messiah (Jesus). It has always really been about Jesus, and not animal sacrifices. Likewise, in the coming Millennial Temple the animal sacrifices will point backward to the Blood of Jesus, which is our only atonement for sin.
    Good words Wayne.

    Only one clarification, the sacrifices of animals was also to allow the people to draw near to and remain close to God, who dwelt in the temple. They were never about salvation, as you say, and I believe that everyone involved knew that they could not take away sin. So it is with these sacrifices as seen by Ezekiel, not to take away sin, and yet more than a ceremonial rite, but to cleanse the heart of the worshiper as he approaches the living Lord.

    In Jesus Christ and His death, our dying with and in Him, is the end of sin, and the opening of drawing near to God through Him for all who believe and actually want to know God. Jew, Greek, Gentile, man, woman, slave, free, whoever. No dispensations, no replacements, just the love of God as received in Jesus Christ.

    Also, I do very strongly believe that there will be many who are saved during the 1000 year reign of Jesus in this world. The completed New Jerusalem is not seen coming down from God until after the judgment, after the new heavens and the new earth are seen, after the 1000 years of His rule.

    In Christ,
    vic

  6. #46
    Dutch41
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by endofallfears View Post
    I can go into more detail when time allows, but I'll give you my short answer.

    Sacrifices in the OT were not only for sin. In fact, in a broader sense, sacrifice was a form of worship and submission to God. The Jewish Christians were not called upon to give up worship to God in the temple, or ignore the feasts, only to no longer depend on the sacrifice of bulls and goats for the remission of sins (although they were free to stop if they so choose.)
    In the Millennial Kingdom, I see these sacrifices and observance of festivals by Israel as worship and submission to God, not to bring back the covering of sin through sacrifice.

    So, if I understand you correct, you think it will be like remebering what was done in the past?

  7. #47
    Dutch41
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    Quote Originally Posted by wakeup View Post
    hi dutch:
    i think we should go back , refresh our minds ,and say to our selves. ok jesus is the greatest sacrifice
    there can be no more animal sacrifices. so what is god showing ezekiiel?
    first of all ezekiel mentioned that he was 25yrs in babylon when god showed him the vision.
    so there is another 45yrs into the captivity
    what has been shown was the future temple that is to be build in jerusalem and god is giving
    all the measurements : now if we go to ch.44:2.3 7---12 you will find that the sacrifices
    were not clean ,it was poluted,so this can not be in the 1000yrs reign.
    this temple was there when jeaus was born,jesus walked trough that gate,and he ate his bread there.
    and this temple was destroyed by the romans in 70 ad.
    regards
    wakeup.


    If that is true, I see some problems with the Scirpture:
    1. Ezek 43:1-7

    1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east.
    2 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east; and His voice was like a noise of many waters, and the earth shined with His glory.
    3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city. And the visions were like the vision that I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
    4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
    5 So the Spirit took me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
    6 And I heard Him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
    7 And He said unto me, "Son of man, the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and My holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they nor their kings, by their whoredom nor by the carcasses of their kings in their high places.

    And when we read the first chapters 40-43.. we see that it doesn't talk about the temple from Herod.

    If you like we can through it.



  8. #48
    Dutch41
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by VW View Post
    Good words Wayne.

    Only one clarification, the sacrifices of animals was also to allow the people to draw near to and remain close to God, who dwelt in the temple. They were never about salvation, as you say, and I believe that everyone involved knew that they could not take away sin. So it is with these sacrifices as seen by Ezekiel, not to take away sin, and yet more than a ceremonial rite, but to cleanse the heart of the worshiper as he approaches the living Lord.

    In Jesus Christ and His death, our dying with and in Him, is the end of sin, and the opening of drawing near to God through Him for all who believe and actually want to know God. Jew, Greek, Gentile, man, woman, slave, free, whoever. No dispensations, no replacements, just the love of God as received in Jesus Christ.

    Also, I do very strongly believe that there will be many who are saved during the 1000 year reign of Jesus in this world. The completed New Jerusalem is not seen coming down from God until after the judgment, after the new heavens and the new earth are seen, after the 1000 years of His rule.

    In Christ,
    vic
    The interesting part of the Ezekiel chapters is that between 40-46 the sinn offerening isn't mentioned.

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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch41 View Post
    The interesting part of the Ezekiel chapters is that between 40-46 the sinn offerening isn't mentioned.
    Actually, that is not true. With just a short look, I find in Ezk 43:18-27 the sin offering talked about.

    Sacrifices are for atonement. Atonement is not payment for sin, which mistake so many make about sin and its eventual settlement, but is rather an offering seeking forgiveness. A covering for sin so to speak.

    The sacrifice that Jesus offered up, indeed, as written in scripture He continually offers up for us, is a unique sacrifice, in that the One who was sinned against offered Himself up for us, to remove sin in its entirety, the stain, the temptation, the results, every aspect of sin in us. Cleansed perfectly, without blemish or spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Not a covering. In this way, the sacrifices of before, nor the ones to come, could in any way be a type of His sacrifice.

    Which brings us to the laws of this temple. They are very many, with ordinances for almost everything. It is a fact that when there are more laws, there is more sin. Without the law, sin is not counted. Just look at our society. We have so many laws now, that almost everyone is guilty of something. More laws means more sins, and those sins are more sinful.

    If we read chapter 44 of Ezk, we find God's judgment against Israel. Past, present, and future.

    God bless you brother in Christ,
    vic

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    Senior Member zone's Avatar
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heremon View Post
    God will fulfill His covenant promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God's "chosen people" will enjoy their "promised land" some day, after they have experienced national regeneration (Jer. 31:31-34; Rom. 11:25-26).
    hi Heremon.

    ~ God did fulfill His Covenant Promises.

    ~ any other teaching is a tragic error with what are and will be extremely grave consequences, saying the Promised Messiah did not come in the flesh 2,000 years ago:


    THE PROMISED LAND (temporal type):

    Joshua 21:43-45
    Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there. And the Lord gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the Lord had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.


    ~ does the above in Joshua ('Jesus') say any of all the good promises that Lord had made to the House of Israel failed? does it say some, or even one thing did not come to pass?

    ~ or does it say clearly that all came to pass and that not a single promise was not fulfilled?

    Joshua 21 ESV
    (go here for an inventory of the Lands given to each tribe in The Promised Land)

    ~ is there a NT witness to the above?

    ~ does the writer to The Hebrews themselves suggest there is another physical land grant on this old earth to come?

    ~ is anyone to be looking for a Redo concerning the temporal Promised Land grants, a continuing city here?

    ~ what REST were they supposed to now enter?

    ~ in the very first line does it say "while the promise of re-entering The Temporal Promised Land still stands, hurry up and claim the promise"?......or does it now move to entering into Jesus Christ, The Fulfillment of the Promise for "national regeneration", and eternal life?


    THE PROMISED SEED (the only Way by which regeneration may be received):

    Hebrews 4:1-
    Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.a For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

    “As I swore in my wrath,
    ‘They shall not enter my rest,’”

    although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said,

    “They shall not enter my rest.”

    Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts.”

    For if Joshua had given them rest, Godb would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

    Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.


    ~ does the writer to the Hebrews say anything remotely like "2,000 years into the future if you will strive to enter into the temporal land of Israel you will find rest for your souls?"

    ~ what is the "other day" spoken of by God that involved "REST"?

    ~ why did God speak of "another day" coming in which the people were commanded to to enter into His Rest, if we see in Joshua they actually did receive "rest" round about them?

    ~ is God referring to another "rest"? is that rest to be sought 1,000 years after the Second Advent? or did God say TODAY! if you will Hear His Voice...TODAY!

    ~ did that PROMISE to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob see it's FULFILLMENT IN JESUS CHRIST at His First Advent?


    Hebrews 4:14-16
    Jesus the Great High Priest
    Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

    Matthew 11:28
    Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


    ~ this is the only other place that exact phrase is used.

    ~ should we tell the Hebrews they are not to bother entering into Christ now? that they'll enter into a continuing city HERE on earth 2,000+ years into the future? that they'll be resurrected into another temporal flesh body, be "made right with God" under a revived Mosaic System, then dies a second time and then the Judgment?

    ~ or has Christianity been duped into followed AND ASSISTING IN THE CONTINUATION OF THE LEAVEN of cleverly devised fables of a Pharisaical millenial earthly reign? (the obssession with OT prophets; severing Daniel's 70th week from the other 69; etc. are a dead give-aways)


    John 5:37-47
    And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”


    ~ what did Jesus say to The Pharisees (above) about any who refused to Come to Him at His First Advent? did He say they would see life (eternal) anyways?


    John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    John 6:58
    This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

    Acts 14:2
    But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.



    Quote Originally Posted by Heremon View Post
    Not just for the Church, but also for Israel, "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29).

    The Church is Israel and vice versa

    ~ the obssessive separation of Romans 11 from its context, and the dragging of it into a mythical future millennium along with Daniel's 70th week is a very serious error the church will answer for.

    ~ jews are being robbed of the truth and the church will answer for the Darby/Scofield nightmare that has been allowed to take root.

    ~ those who would rebuild that wall of partition that Jesus tore down are cooperating with The Great Harlot Babylon.

    ~ does the Hebrew of Hebrews say anyone is to be made acceptable or "perfect" by the flesh in any temporal future 1,000 year reign on earth or at any time whatsoever?


    Galatians 3:1-9
    By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
    O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

    Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.


    ~ who does Paul say is The Church, the blessed along with Abraham? children of the flesh or children of The Promise? are we helping anyone by claiming a future DISPENSATION THAT DOESN'T EXIST?

    ~ does Paul suggest there is a future "getting right with God" at any time whatsoever outside faith in Jesus Christ NOW?

    ~ what or WHO does Paul say is THE PROMISE given to Abraham? LAND? BULLS AND GOATS?


    Galatians 3:15-18
    The Law and the Promise
    To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
    Last edited by zone; March 9th, 2011 at 11:03 AM.

  11. #51
    VRJ
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    The bible has layered meanings. We cannot insist that it is literal nor that it is all symbolism. It may show us something literal to tell us something spiritual and may actually play out in the literal later.
    Ezekiel 4:6. Here God is telling him to act out something literal. "And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year (noticed he added this for us for a deeper understanding)." So, he didn't make him lie on his side fourty years. These were symbolic yet it played out literal later.
    A thousand years could also mean a thousand days. How do we really know that God isn't keeping his treasures of meaning from the wise. But he has promised that in the last days he would reveal his treasure of meanings. Amos 3:7; "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." If we are christians aren't we to be led by the Holy Spirit or do we relie on so called teachers of the bible that have set preconcived doctrines. We are God' elect and there's no reason to not let him work through us. To bring us to one accord.
    We are going to have to open our understanding with new eyes and ears and put on the mind of Christ to do that.
    I Corinthians 2:16; " For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."
    Philippians 2:2; "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, and being of one accord, of one mind."
    Philippians 2:5; "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:"
    Philippians 3:16' "Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."
    If we all were called to the upper room as it was in the book of Acts I'm afraid non would be there. Those who were there allowed the Lord to show them new things. They had to empty their minds of all there generation upbringing taught them.
    A great way to start is maybe look at the word: ZION
    How many out there use a concordance? Then look up all you can. Are seeing it in a different light or way? Why did it change to SION in the New Testament?
    Was it the same reason that Abram's name was changed, or Jacobs's name was changed to Israel. Doesn't this tell us it was not changed back. So God does not go back. Esau lost his heritage to Jacobs. Did Esau get it back? Then why do we see it mentioned so much in Obadiah so much. Is this a spiritual battle now? See, this is the proper way of moving through scripture.

  12. #52
    Heremon
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Hey Zone,

    I know, I know, you follow Replacement Theology and I follow Placement Theology. I believe, without getting in a huge circular debate that would have no end, that we will have to just agree to disagree on this issue. Good post though!

    Wayne

  13. #53
    Heremon
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    [quote=VW;397403]Good words Wayne.

    Only one clarification, the sacrifices of animals was also to allow the people to draw near to and remain close to God, who dwelt in the temple. They were never about salvation, as you say, and I believe that everyone involved knew that they could not take away sin. So it is with these sacrifices as seen by Ezekiel, not to take away sin, and yet more than a ceremonial rite, but to cleanse the heart of the worshiper as he approaches the living Lord.

    In Jesus Christ and His death, our dying with and in Him, is the end of sin, and the opening of drawing near to God through Him for all who believe and actually want to know God. Jew, Greek, Gentile, man, woman, slave, free, whoever. No dispensations, no replacements, just the love of God as received in Jesus Christ.

    Also, I do very strongly believe that there will be many who are saved during the 1000 year reign of Jesus in this world. The completed New Jerusalem is not seen coming down from God until after the judgment, after the new heavens and the new earth are seen, after the 1000 years of His rule.

    In Christ,



    Yes Vic...good clarification. On this point I agree completely.

  14. #54
    Senior Member zone's Avatar
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by VRJ View Post
    The bible has layered meanings. We cannot insist that it is literal nor that it is all symbolism. It may show us something literal to tell us something spiritual and may actually play out in the literal later.
    Ezekiel 4:6. Here God is telling him to act out something literal. "And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year (noticed he added this for us for a deeper understanding)." So, he didn't make him lie on his side fourty years. These were symbolic yet it played out literal later. .
    ~ ezekiel laid down on both sides (to bear the iniquity of both houses as they went into captivity). all the symbols of his lying down foreshadowed the Finished Work of JESUS.

    ~ the end of those years saw the First Advent = JESUS AT HIS FIRST COMING.

    ~ only in Him would those iniquities be FORGIVEN and propitiated in full.

    ~ are we to suggest ANYONE carry on in this temporary life and just look for a mythical future dispensation squeezed between the SECOND COMING AND THE JUDGMENT?

    ~ or are we to carry the Good News Of Messiah's Coming in the PAST, and the commandment that IF THEY WILL HEAR HIS VOICE. TODAY THEY SHOULD ENTER INTO HIS REST?

    Quote Originally Posted by VRJ View Post
    A thousand years could also mean a thousand days. How do we really know that God isn't keeping his treasures of meaning from the wise. But he has promised that in the last days he would reveal his treasure of meanings. Amos 3:7; "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." If we are christians aren't we to be led by the Holy Spirit or do we relie on so called teachers of the bible that have set preconcived doctrines..
    ~ i completely agree 1,000%

    ~ should we listen to men who devised a dispensational model of Redmption less than 100 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by VRJ View Post
    We are God' elect and there's no reason to not let him work through us. To bring us to one accord.
    We are going to have to open our understanding with new eyes and ears and put on the mind of Christ to do that.
    I Corinthians 2:16; " For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."
    Philippians 2:2; "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, and being of one accord, of one mind."
    Philippians 2:5; "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:"
    Philippians 3:16' "Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.".
    ~ are we God's elect? if so, what are we doing promising something to others that doesn't exist?

    ~ doesn't that by definition say TODAY, if you will hear His Voice, TODAY?

    Quote Originally Posted by VRJ View Post
    If we all were called to the upper room as it was in the book of Acts I'm afraid non would be there. Those who were there allowed the Lord to show them new things. They had to empty their minds of all there generation upbringing taught them.
    A great way to start is maybe look at the word: ZION
    How many out there use a concordance? Then look up all you can. Are seeing it in a different light or way? Why did it change to SION in the New Testament?
    Was it the same reason that Abram's name was changed, or Jacobs's name was changed to Israel. Doesn't this tell us it was not changed back. So God does not go back. Esau lost his heritage to Jacobs. Did Esau get it back? Then why do we see it mentioned so much in Obadiah so much. Is this a spiritual battle now? See, this is the proper way of moving through scripture.
    ~ and WHO is The Ultimate ISRAEL, the Suffering Servant, the FIRSTBORN SON?

    ~ this is a spiritual battle, and i am determined to continue tearing down that dreadful wall of partition others are so determined to REBUILD.

    ~ the foundation of their "wall" will not stand in THAT DAY, and we have to take the stones away from the BUILDERS' hands.

    Ephesians 2:1-22
    By Grace Through Faith
    And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    One in Christ
    Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 3:11
    For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    2 Corinthians 11:4
    For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

  15. #55
    Senior Member zone's Avatar
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heremon View Post
    Hey Zone,

    I know, I know, you follow Replacement Theology and I follow Placement Theology. I believe, without getting in a huge circular debate that would have no end, that we will have to just agree to disagree on this issue. Good post though!

    Wayne
    hi Wayne.
    i don't need to debate you personally
    but i'll never stop telling the Truth.
    "replacement theology" is another dialectic misnomer.
    zone.

  16. #56
    Heremon
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    [quote=zone;397479]hi Wayne.
    i don't need to debate you personally
    but i'll never stop telling the Truth.
    "replacement theology" is another dialectic misnomer.
    zone.[/quote


    Lol...You say "dialectic misnomer", I say theological fallacy. Tomato/ tom(ah)to.

  17. #57
    Senior Member zone's Avatar
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heremon View Post

    Lol...You say "dialectic misnomer", I say theological fallacy. Tomato/ tom(ah)to.
    hi Wayne! LOL!
    does that mean we can call the whole dispensational thing off?



    in Christ,
    zone.

  18. #58
    Senior Member zone's Avatar
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by VW View Post
    Good words Wayne.

    Only one clarification, the sacrifices of animals was also to allow the people to draw near to and remain close to God, who dwelt in the temple. They were never about salvation, as you say, and I believe that everyone involved knew that they could not take away sin. So it is with these sacrifices as seen by Ezekiel, not to take away sin, and yet more than a ceremonial rite, but to cleanse the heart of the worshiper as he approaches the living Lord.

    In Jesus Christ and His death, our dying with and in Him, is the end of sin, and the opening of drawing near to God through Him for all who believe and actually want to know God. Jew, Greek, Gentile, man, woman, slave, free, whoever. No dispensations, no replacements, just the love of God as received in Jesus Christ.

    Also, I do very strongly believe that there will be many who are saved during the 1000 year reign of Jesus in this world. The completed New Jerusalem is not seen coming down from God until after the judgment, after the new heavens and the new earth are seen, after the 1000 years of His rule.

    In Christ,
    vic
    this isn't directed at you VW, since we are not discussing eschatology.

    nevertheless:

    Quote Originally Posted by VW View Post
    Only one clarification, the sacrifices of animals was also to allow the people to draw near to and remain close to God, who dwelt in the temple. They were never about salvation, as you say, and I believe that everyone involved knew that they could not take away sin. So it is with these sacrifices as seen by Ezekiel, not to take away sin, and yet more than a ceremonial rite, but to cleanse the heart of the worshiper as he approaches the living Lord.
    ~ so in the 1,000 future reign we see things going backwards to animal sacrifice.

    ~ no amount of finessing can make that alright.

    Quote Originally Posted by VW View Post
    In Jesus Christ and His death, our dying with and in Him, is the end of sin, and the opening of drawing near to God through Him for all who believe and actually want to know God. Jew, Greek, Gentile, man, woman, slave, free, whoever. No dispensations, no replacements, just the love of God as received in Jesus Christ.
    AMEN!

    Quote Originally Posted by VW View Post
    Also, I do very strongly believe that there will be many who are saved during the 1000 year reign of Jesus in this world. The completed New Jerusalem is not seen coming down from God until after the judgment, after the new heavens and the new earth are seen, after the 1000 years of His rule.
    ~ so we had some clarity by ditching replacements and dispensations, but now we're taking them back.

    ~ "The completed New Jerusalem is not seen coming down from God until after the judgment, after the new heavens and the new earth are seen" because that's when that happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by VW View Post
    after the 1000 years of His rule.
    ~ since Jesus has been ruling since the First Advent, for the term expressed symbolically as a thousand years, The Second Advent brings "The completed New Jerusalem is not seen coming down from God until after the judgment, after the new heavens and the new earth are seen"

    ~ there's no excuse for squishing a literal 1,000 years between the 1st and 2nd Advents...that's in place because satan needs it for his time to deceive the nations. The Pharisees have been sitting on this all that time, brought forward now, in this SHORT SPACE (if we are indeed in that little season).

    don't believe that? just take another look at the Noahide Campaign.

  19. #59


    VW
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    If the first resurrection of the righteous has already happened, then we have entered the 1000 years of His reign.

    If satan has been bound for 1000 years, then why are we still not seeing the judgment come, after almost 2000 years?

    The only reason the Jews have not been making animal sacrifice is because they have not had a place to perform them. Give them an earthly temple, and they will be sacrificing again. Why? Because they are still following the Law, and the Law demands animal sacrifice. One of the reasons we are not following the Law is we do not need a sacrifice, as Jesus sacrificed Himself for us.

  20. #60
    endofallfears
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    Default Re: sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by zone View Post
    so, the Kingdom (offered to the jews) was postponed and given to the gentiles? Plan B?
    love you too endof.
    Heh heh! "Plan B from Outer Space"!!
    I don't know if it could be called "Plan B", but there are a couple of things worth looking at.



    25*For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

    26*And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
    “The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
    And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

    27*For this is My covenant with them,
    When I take away their sins.”

    28*Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29*For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30*For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31*even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32*For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Ro 11:25-32)

    So if God had planned all along to allow the partial hardening of the heart of Israel, then why not reveal it in prophecy?

    The stone which the builders rejected
    Has become the chief cornerstone. (Ps 118:22)

    There is prophecy that this will occur. Yet we also need to see how God deals with His people.

    If God knew Adam would fail, why did he wait until Adam ate of the tree?

    If God knew Abraham would not withhold Isaac from the altar, why put him through it?

    If God knew Israel would fail, why put the blessings and the curses before them as a choice?

    If God knew Israel would be unable to enter the promised land, why bring them to the border?

    If God knew Israel would reject the Messiah, why afford them the opportunity to embrace Him and bring in the eternal kingdom?

    The last two questions are corollary.
    God brought Israel to the Promised Land/God offered Israel their Messiah

    Israel drew back from the Promised Land through fear and unbelief/Israel drew back from Messiah through fear and unbelief

    Israel wandered in the desert apart from the Promised Land/Israel wanders the world apart from Messiah

    Israel finally enters the Promised Land/Israel finally accepts Messiah

    God is a Just God and has always offered the opportunity to do what is right, even knowing the wrong will be chosen. Nobody will ever say God is unjust and tempts people to sin.
    He is also a God of hope, and will also continue to hold out that opportunity to do what is right.

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