sacrifice in the 1000-year of peace?

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VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
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and, you just happened to open the Scriptures and find a literal 1,000 years with animal sacrifices.
(with the other irreconcilable corruptions of redemptive History and Christ's Coming(s), His Finished Work, God's promises fulfilled in Him.....)

foolishness? you know nothing but Christ and him crucified?

NOT SO. but at this moment its a convenient place to go.

you are CERTAIN there will be a future millennium with all that stuff going on, even though that system of belief ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES that Jesus Christ DID NOT fulfill all righteousness. it has BUILT IN unfinished work by Christ....do you REALLY know The Jesus as revealed in the Bible?

yes, i am waaaaaaaaay out there....and getting spiritually as far away from that mess as i can.

too bad you've decided personal revelation trumps study VW.

p.s.: YOU DIED...but are you alive now?
I am alive in His resurrection.

Yes, I do believe in personal revelation, of God Himself to us. I believe that this is the basis of grace, and thus of salvation. If belief in the bible prevents one from receiving this revelation, then they have missed salvation, in the name of God. Sad.

When the Spirit first started teaching me, He took me to the prophets. I read and studied the prophets for over 10 years. The Holy Spirit was and is and will always be my Teacher.

You mention the work of Christ. It is finished, to quote Him. But were you born yet? Had you received His Spirit and salvation at the time He said, "It is finished?"

You search the scripture, because you believe that in them you have eternal life, and they testify of Jesus, whom so many are unwilling to come to that they may have life. Why? Because they think that they already have life, having been told this by men who are lifeless themselves.

Listen to them if you want to. I listen to the Holy Spirit.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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I am alive in His resurrection..
i asked you: when your flesh body dies, will you partake of the consummation of (your) the resurrection you are now alive in?

or will you go into soul sleep until the Second Advent, at which time you will partake of the first resurrection?

its hard to follow you VW, since you said you've already partaken of the first death. where does the death of your flesh body come into it? is that the second death? or isn't it mentioned?

remember what it says:

Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power

it does NOT say:

Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first death! Over such the second death has no power

dispensationalism adds A THIRD EVERYTHING.

a third Advent
a third Jerusalem
a third Temple
a third resurrection
a third death

and TWO COVENANTS in play.

Yes, I do believe in personal revelation, of God Himself to us..
so does every born again Christian, VW.
and you know that.

that's not what i was referring to, and you know that too. i was talking about extra-biblical revelation concerning God's Plan and so on.

does god speak to you audibly? you said you met Jesus. did he talk you?

what did He say? isn't that pretty important extra-biblical revelation? should it be added to canon?

I believe that this is the basis of grace, and thus of salvation. If belief in the bible prevents one from receiving this revelation, then they have missed salvation, in the name of God. Sad..
don't be ridiculous: you didn't receive faith in Christ without the Holy Spirit testifying of Jesus by the Word (Gospel), confirming for you that the gospel you heard preached was TRUE.

When the Spirit first started teaching me, He took me to the prophets. I read and studied the prophets for over 10 years...
hmmm. even before teaching you the New Testament?

what did he teach you over those 10 years about Jesus by the Old Testament prophets?

The Holy Spirit testifies of JESUS. if he showed you Jesus revealed in the prophets, why do you believe a false eschaton?

did He tell you you too were a prophet like they were? you do know that wouldn't be true VW.

The Holy Spirit was and is and will always be my Teacher. .
fair enough. why isn't He teaching you the error of millennialism. and that Jesus FULFILLED ALL 70 WEEKS?

You mention the work of Christ. It is finished, to quote Him. But were you born yet? Had you received His Spirit and salvation at the time He said, "It is finished?".
uh....HUH?
His work was finished from the foundation of the world as far as God is concerned VW.
i believed and received it when i BELIEVED THE GOSPEL.

what's your point?

You search the scripture, because you believe that in them you have eternal life, and they testify of Jesus, whom so many are unwilling to come to that they may have life. Why?.
did the Holy Spirit teach you to use a passage spoken directly to The Pharisees who sat in Moses' seat against christians who have heard and BELIEVED ON JESUS?

what a cop-out for putting aside the Bible. did you ever continue out of the shadows (prophets) and see what they desired to see but didn't?

Because they think that they already have life, having been told this by men who are lifeless themselves..
this part may be true.
if people have been TOLD by someone they have received salvation, what's that got to do with their responsibility to STUDY FOR THEMSELVES? we wouldn't be in this mess if they had......

Listen to them if you want to. I listen to the Holy Spirit.
ask Him why you're not grasping that Jesus fulfilled all 70 weeks?
ask Him why you are believing (and teaching) jewish fables.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
Dear Zone,

It is obvious that you believe that the 1000 year reign of Christ is a part of dispensation teaching. I do not believe this to be so, have never believed then to be dependent on each other. I do not believe in dispensations. It is also obvious that you believe that the pre-tribulation rapture is also tied to dispensation teaching. This also is false.

You asked about my death, or maybe my life. All I am allowed to tell you at this time is that no life of the flesh is actual life. True, actual life never ends. Jesus was speaking one day, explaining about life. He said that the hour has come when the dead would hear His voice, and that those who heard would live. Some say that this was in reference to those in the grave, but He went on to teach that the day is coming, (but has not come yet,) when all who are in the grave will hear His voice and come forth. (This is important, that it is at His voice that every single person who ever lived come to life, either in this earthly existence, or in that day, after the 1000 years of His righteous rule in the world.)

You mention about study. Study will not save one, nor will study keep one from error. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, and He is given to keep us until that day.

You believe that the 70 weeks have been done. I still don't see how you can believe that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is the end of the 70 weeks.

What fables? The 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ? That is taught in the prophets. Along with so much about Jesus as to blow one's mind.

I did not ask why I was taken to the prophets first. (Actually, the first book I was lead to meditate on and to learn from the Spirit from was Lamentations.) That disaster is coming again.

I suppose that there will be no tribulation, no pouring out of God's wrath, no judgment. I suppose you might as well throw away the book of the revelation of Jesus Christ.

You have very strange doctrines.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Dear Zone,

It is obvious that you believe that the 1000 year reign of Christ is a part of dispensation teaching. I do not believe this to be so, have never believed then to be dependent on each other. I do not believe in dispensations. It is also obvious that you believe that the pre-tribulation rapture is also tied to dispensation teaching. This also is false..
LOL!
you don't believe in dispensations, but you believe in the dispensationalists' SEVENTH DISPENSATION!
too funny VW.

please get what i am saying VW:

i DO NOT believe the reign of Jesus for a thousand years is part of 'dispensational' teaching.

Jesus is reigning NOW for a term the symbolic language in Revelation calls a thousand years.

the 1,000 year literal reign on this old earth AFTER THE SECOND ADVENT is a dispensationalist teaching.

if you spent even a teeny bit of effort discovering the structure of the book and the language used, you would see it.

instead you choose to believe in the 7th dispensation while denying you are a dispensationalist.

pretribulation rapture IS part of dispensational teaching, though not all dispensationalists believe in the pretribulation rapture. there are various forms of it, but they all have common fallacies: a millennium AFTER the Second Advent; national israel being the focus of God's Plan instead of Christ being the center (and redeemer of jew and gentile); and Daniel's 70th week unfulfilled.

You asked about my death, or maybe my life. All I am allowed to tell you at this time [??] is that no life of the flesh is actual life. True, actual life never ends. Jesus was speaking one day, explaining about life. He said that the hour has come when the dead would hear His voice, and that those who heard would live. Some say that this was in reference to those in the grave, but He went on to teach that the day is coming, (but has not come yet,) when all who are in the grave will hear His voice and come forth. (This is important, that it is at His voice that every single person who ever lived come to life, either in this earthly existence, or in that day, after the 1000 years of His righteous rule in the world.) .
HUH?????????????????

He said that the hour has come when the dead would hear His voice, and that those who heard would live:

- that the day is coming, (but has not come yet,)
- when all who are in the grave will hear His voice and come forth.
- it is at His voice that every single person who ever lived come to life

- it is at His voice that every single person who ever lived come to life:

- either in this earthly existence (so a general resurrection in this earthly existence?)
- or in that day (what day?)

- after the 1000 years of His righteous rule in the world

(which is it? do they hear his voice sometime during this earthly existence and come forth? or on THAT DAY (what Day?) 1,000 YEARS after THE SECOND ADVENT?

i'm asking you:
where will you go when your body dies?

will His voice call you out of the grave at The Second Advent, at which time you will then rule with Him for 1,000 years and then the rest of the dead will hear His voice and rise from their graves?

if so, where will you be until The Second Advent?

and WHO will you be ruling over if the others aren't raised til THE END OF THE 1,000 YEARS?

and who are those who have fallen asleep Paul tells the Thessalonians not to worry about, that Jesus will BRING WITH HIM?

pretty curious that you got a personal revelation about the resurrection that is secret whereas paul described it in Scripture - was he wrong?

where is Paul now?

You mention about study. Study will not save one, nor will study keep one from error. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, and He is given to keep us until that day..
sigh.
whatever VW.
so you studied the prophets for 10 years and profited and were blessed, but anyone else who studies for 10 years is relying on the bible instead of The Holy Spirit?

You believe that the 70 weeks have been done. I still don't see how you can believe that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is the end of the 70 weeks. .
huh? the 70 weeks weren't fulfilled in 70AD!
the 70th week saw Jesus on the bank of the Jordan with the holy spirit descending as a sign to John the Baptist. THE ANOINTING OF THE MOST HOLY.

the consummation of the decree of JUDGMENT on THE HOLY CITY (which Jesus declared as He sat overlooking Jerusalem and declared she would be left desolate) took place in 70AD.

i don't know if you can be bothered, but here is the passage. if you read this and see ANYONE OTHER THAN JESUS THE CHRIST HERE, you have believed in another jesus, and you have NO FORGIVENESS FOR YOUR SIN, since messiah has not come.

this is talking about their return from captivity and the rebuilding of the temple.
it is telling them Jesus is coming and will be messiah, and will be sacrificed to fulfill all the things said RIGHT IN THE PASSAGE!


Daniel 9:24-27
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week [IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 70TH WEEK] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus while alive decreed desolation on Jerusalem...the consummation of that came WITHIN THAT GENERATION EXACTLY AS FORETOLD (within 40 years) - TITUS.

if you have read this, and see JESUS THE CHRIST, Daniel's 70 weeks ARE FULFILLED ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

if the 70 weeks are fulfilled, your millennium is HERESY.

What fables? The 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ? That is taught in the prophets
RUBBISH. the term a thousand years is ONLY used in Revelation.

you spent all that time in the prophets and naturally you see only what they saw: from afar, at times a single advent, at times a single temple....you NEVER went ahead and discovered the critical truths such as Daniel's 70th week: that tells EVERYONE have been slogging ahead with dispensational presuppositions, and yet you claim you have none.

I did not ask why I was taken to the prophets first. (Actually, the first book I was lead to meditate on and to learn from the Spirit from was Lamentations.) That disaster is coming again..
VW: dispensationalist intepret the NT using the Old. thats backwards and so is your understanding.

THE BIBLE ISN'T ABOUT ANCIENT ISRAEL - ITS ABOUT JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!

no wonder you declare distater on the church: YOU'RE PLAYING JEREMIAH...just like ALL the dispensationalists do.

you do not understand that The Great Harlot is JERUSALEM, so you shift ancient prophecies about her that have already been fulfilled and you put them on The Church.

I suppose that there will be no tribulation, no pouring out of God's wrath, no judgment. I suppose you might as well throw away the book of the revelation of Jesus Christ.

You have very strange doctrines.
don't be ridiculous.
there's tribulation coming...and wrath, and Judgment.

AND THEN ETERNITY.
 
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Dutch41

Guest
LOL!
you don't believe in dispensations, but you believe in the dispensationalists' SEVENTH DISPENSATION!
too funny VW.

please get what i am saying VW:

i DO NOT believe the reign of Jesus for a thousand years is part of 'dispensational' teaching.

Jesus is reigning NOW for a term the symbolic language in Revelation calls a thousand years.

the 1,000 year literal reign on this old earth AFTER THE SECOND ADVENT is a dispensationalist teaching.

if you spent even a teeny bit of effort discovering the structure of the book and the language used, you would see it.

instead you choose to believe in the 7th dispensation while denying you are a dispensationalist.

pretribulation rapture IS part of dispensational teaching, though not all dispensationalists believe in the pretribulation rapture. there are various forms of it, but they all have common fallacies: a millennium AFTER the Second Advent; national israel being the focus of God's Plan instead of Christ being the center (and redeemer of jew and gentile); and Daniel's 70th week unfulfilled.



HUH?????????????????

He said that the hour has come when the dead would hear His voice, and that those who heard would live:

- that the day is coming, (but has not come yet,)
- when all who are in the grave will hear His voice and come forth.
- it is at His voice that every single person who ever lived come to life

- it is at His voice that every single person who ever lived come to life:

- either in this earthly existence (so a general resurrection in this earthly existence?)
- or in that day (what day?)

- after the 1000 years of His righteous rule in the world

(which is it? do they hear his voice sometime during this earthly existence and come forth? or on THAT DAY (what Day?) 1,000 YEARS after THE SECOND ADVENT?

i'm asking you:
where will you go when your body dies?

will His voice call you out of the grave at The Second Advent, at which time you will then rule with Him for 1,000 years and then the rest of the dead will hear His voice and rise from their graves?

if so, where will you be until The Second Advent?

and WHO will you be ruling over if the others aren't raised til THE END OF THE 1,000 YEARS?

and who are those who have fallen asleep Paul tells the Thessalonians not to worry about, that Jesus will BRING WITH HIM?

pretty curious that you got a personal revelation about the resurrection that is secret whereas paul described it in Scripture - was he wrong?

where is Paul now?



sigh.
whatever VW.
so you studied the prophets for 10 years and profited and were blessed, but anyone else who studies for 10 years is relying on the bible instead of The Holy Spirit?



huh? the 70 weeks weren't fulfilled in 70AD!
the 70th week saw Jesus on the bank of the Jordan with the holy spirit descending as a sign to John the Baptist. THE ANOINTING OF THE MOST HOLY.

the consummation of the decree of JUDGMENT on THE HOLY CITY (which Jesus declared as He sat overlooking Jerusalem and declared she would be left desolate) took place in 70AD.

i don't know if you can be bothered, but here is the passage. if you read this and see ANYONE OTHER THAN JESUS THE CHRIST HERE, you have believed in another jesus, and you have NO FORGIVENESS FOR YOUR SIN, since messiah has not come.

this is talking about their return from captivity and the rebuilding of the temple.
it is telling them Jesus is coming and will be messiah, and will be sacrificed to fulfill all the things said RIGHT IN THE PASSAGE!


Daniel 9:24-27
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week [IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 70TH WEEK] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus while alive decreed desolation on Jerusalem...the consummation of that came WITHIN THAT GENERATION EXACTLY AS FORETOLD (within 40 years) - TITUS.

if you have read this, and see JESUS THE CHRIST, Daniel's 70 weeks ARE FULFILLED ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

if the 70 weeks are fulfilled, your millennium is HERESY.



RUBBISH. the term a thousand years is ONLY used in Revelation.

you spent all that time in the prophets and naturally you see only what they saw: from afar, at times a single advent, at times a single temple....you NEVER went ahead and discovered the critical truths such as Daniel's 70th week: that tells EVERYONE have been slogging ahead with dispensational presuppositions, and yet you claim you have none.



VW: dispensationalist intepret the NT using the Old. thats backwards and so is your understanding.

THE BIBLE ISN'T ABOUT ANCIENT ISRAEL - ITS ABOUT JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!

no wonder you declare distater on the church: YOU'RE PLAYING JEREMIAH...just like ALL the dispensationalists do.

you do not understand that The Great Harlot is JERUSALEM, so you shift ancient prophecies about her that have already been fulfilled and you put themI on The Church.



don't be ridiculous.
there's tribulation coming...and wrath, and Judgment.

AND THEN ETERNITY.
I see, the subject is changed to 1000 years..

And I see that the tone of speaking is not very nice too.. pity... full of disrespect. Pity...
 
D

Dutch41

Guest
Dear Zone,

It is obvious that you believe that the 1000 year reign of Christ is a part of dispensation teaching. I do not believe this to be so, have never believed then to be dependent on each other. I do not believe in dispensations. It is also obvious that you believe that the pre-tribulation rapture is also tied to dispensation teaching. This also is false.

You asked about my death, or maybe my life. All I am allowed to tell you at this time is that no life of the flesh is actual life. True, actual life never ends. Jesus was speaking one day, explaining about life. He said that the hour has come when the dead would hear His voice, and that those who heard would live. Some say that this was in reference to those in the grave, but He went on to teach that the day is coming, (but has not come yet,) when all who are in the grave will hear His voice and come forth. (This is important, that it is at His voice that every single person who ever lived come to life, either in this earthly existence, or in that day, after the 1000 years of His righteous rule in the world.)

You mention about study. Study will not save one, nor will study keep one from error. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, and He is given to keep us until that day.

You believe that the 70 weeks have been done. I still don't see how you can believe that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is the end of the 70 weeks.

What fables? The 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ? That is taught in the prophets. Along with so much about Jesus as to blow one's mind.

I did not ask why I was taken to the prophets first. (Actually, the first book I was lead to meditate on and to learn from the Spirit from was Lamentations.) That disaster is coming again.

I suppose that there will be no tribulation, no pouring out of God's wrath, no judgment. I suppose you might as well throw away the book of the revelation of Jesus Christ.

You have very strange doctrines.
I agree with you
 
D

Dutch41

Guest
i've posted enough of my position, and enough links to scholars and reformers who see this MODEL as the REAL structure of The Bible.

since coming to see these things, i have ZERO intention of being drawn back into convoluted contrived theories that have been clearly debunked.

see ya:D
Yes.. I know a lot of scholars too, but I think I can mention more, who are believing in a real 1000 year.
So.. I don't think it is good to make a competition about scholars.
 
E

endofallfears

Guest
Hi, Dutch.

Concerning the sacrifice in the Temple as a memorial.

If we see the sacrifice of the Lamb prior to Christ as symbolic of His future sacrifice on the cross (in a sense pointing toward what is to come), cannot this same symbol still point to Him symbolically as a representation of the finished work. After all, Communion is symbolic of the flesh and blood of Christ, how much more is the symbol of the sacrificial lamb, for John the Baptist said of Jesus, "Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
 
V

VRJ

Guest
You know so much got corrupted before the great flood of Noah that God just had to start over. God says as it was in the days of Noah. When you think of it, so much has been corrupted again, bibles, churches, evil in the world. God in Ezekiel concerning this temple shows it has been completly stipped of everything except Jesus. This is the last temple and all we have is the Lord. Ezekiel is showing us the stripping away to everything but Him.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Hi, Dutch.

Concerning the sacrifice in the Temple as a memorial.

If we see the sacrifice of the Lamb prior to Christ as symbolic of His future sacrifice on the cross (in a sense pointing toward what is to come), cannot this same symbol still point to Him symbolically as a representation of the finished work. After all, Communion is symbolic of the flesh and blood of Christ, how much more is the symbol of the sacrificial lamb, for John the Baptist said of Jesus, "Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
announcing the 70th week.
love you endof.
 
Jul 6, 2010
431
4
0
announcing the 70th week.
love you endof.

After threescore and two weeks will Messiah be cut off. That's 62 weeks. So NO, it is not announcing the 70 weeks. You have it wrong.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
After threescore and two weeks will Messiah be cut off. That's 62 weeks. So NO, it is not announcing the 70 weeks. You have it wrong.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to
finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation
for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the
vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

6 things have to happen to realize the messianic prophecy in the 70 weeks as revealed to Daniel:

- finish the transgression

- make an end of sins

- make reconciliation for iniquity

- bring in everlasting righteousness

- seal the vision and the prophecy

- anoint the Most Holy

these 6 things are to be fulfilled during the First advent of Jesus leading up to and Finished at Calvary.

this critical time frame and prophecy was given so precisely as to absolutely disallow any other messiah as only Jesus appeared at this exact place and time.

attempts to sever the 70th week from the other 69 is ONLY for the purpose of denying that Jesus is the messiah that fulfilled all 6 events.

it is through this single prophecy that dispensationalism is exposed > that is the single most important reason for the precision of the prophecy: that there would absolutely no question that Jesus was the anointed messaih and that He would fulfill all that was decreed.

there is no gap, the Kingdom was not postponed.

Jesus has already come in the flesh as messiah, and Daniel is the key.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

these 6 events were to be a signal to the jews that the prophesied Christ had come.

the 70 weeks finished with those 6 events. only a denier according to 2 John will say they did not.

the 70th brought the new Coveant, and everlasting righteousness for all who believe.

the New Coveant would replace the Old.

dispensationalism teaches that the 6 events are about national israel and not about Jesus or the church (which is believing national israel merged with believing gentiles)

what 'progressive" or "new" dispensationalists don't understand is that the classic, or original dispensationalists said that the first 5 events were about ancient israel, jeruslame and the return from babylon but that the 6th, anointing the Most Holy is about a place: the temple.

the anointing of the Most holyPlace refers of course to the new temple to be built and that
when the jews build their new temple God/or jesus will return to dwell again behind the veil.

dispensationalism was always intended to substitute jesus Christ fulfilling the prophecies of Daniel for a temple in Jerusalem. clever devices were used deceive Christians into believing in an earthly 1,000 years reign from Jerusalm for jesus so they would not hinder the Talmudists, and in fact would help them.

those Christians have been taught that Mystery Babylon The Great is Rome, or NY, or Iran....never old Jerusalem, even though it is so clearly written in the Bible. the new dispensationalists have set aside their personal study without dispensational presuppositions and indoctrination and believed the deceivers like lahaye and hagee and the lot.

dispensational teaching perverts the anointing of the Most Holy Jesus Christ at The First Advent, His having fulfilled all righteousness required as well as making a full end to sacrifice for sins, by applying those passages to national israel and a temple.

the Temple has no place whatsoever in the Redemptive Plan of God beyond the consummation in eternity, New Jerusalem.

the 6 things mentioned in Daniel that had to be fulfilled by Jesus are purely messianic, and are the fulfillment of all the covenant promises made to national Israel, in the Person of Jesus Christ.

dispensational teaching (and Judaism) make the temple and the nation of israel the messiah.

with the construction of a new temple, misunderstood as ezekiel's temple, weare to believe that animal sacrifice will be renewed and apporved by God, that He will return to the jews and accept this sacrifice.

dispensational teachers vary on whether the Plan B church will be present at this time or in heaven having been taken in the rapture some time before.

they would have us believe that after 2,000 years God will again approve of a Temple and sacrifice, and he will embrace those who have repeatedly blasphemed and tread upon the blood of Christ.

because the 70th week belongs to national israel, they say, and since many of the jews rejected Christ, they say, God postponed The Kingdom and will in fact accept an animal instaed of His Son.

present day dispensational students may not understand the foundation of their beliefs, but these are the facts. this system was introduced for one reason oly: to establish the end time deception that old Jerusalem and apostate israel is the wife of god and the Plan B church is the bride of Christ.

they rebuild the wall of partition and have christians believing in two Gods with two Covenants.

these teachings say that these animal sacrifices God is now pleased with will be stopped by a gentile Antichrist (the pope?) which causes God to ge really mad and rain down his wrath on the Antichrist who would dare to interfere with His revived Mosaic Covenant.

all of this is supposedly taking place during the 7 year tribulation (t has to be 7 years of course, since that is the 70th week which was stolen from jesus Christ and His Finished Work at the First Advent.

half-way through this 7 years tribulation, they say, is when the gentile Antichrist who pretended to
be israel's friend suddenly turns on her and stops her pleasing animal sacrifices. this really ticks God off so he begins the GREAT TRIBULATION which is his time of wrath poured out on the Antichrist and his followers who dared to stop the daily sacrifices in the temple God is so happy with.

see, God had to stop the Work of jesus on calvary (even though he went through with it) because many jews didn't believe on Him.

so the last week of Daniel had to placed at the end of the Plan of redmption so the unbelieving jews (who call Jesus a bastard and say he used witchcraft to perfom His miracles) can get right under the Old Covenant.

the story says that the Law keepers are good to go even if they take the mark, since, as with all other things promised, they didn't believe it, so they are specially sealed anyways. they will suddenly be saved regadless of anything else the moment they see jesus coming in the sky.

unbeleivnggentiles who see jesus coming in the sky may not be saved at that time apparently, that's only the blind jews.

we're undecided as to where the church has been all this while, but we seem to agree that she comes back now with jesus and the unbeliving blaspheming jews now believe and the gentile Antichrist and his gentile followers are either cast into hell or BOUND for a 1,000 years.

now the real action starts!

national israel is now restored as the chosen people of God, the church belongs to Jesus and th millennial reign begins.

israel is the kingdom of priest and kings, not sure what the gentiles do, there is a resurrection of some kind of all the jews who have died in unblief and they are given temporary flesh bodies to be restored under the new HOLY system on earth in old Jerusalem, probably by animal sacrifices, just as unbeliving jews were during the severed 70th week which is the 7 year tribulation.

during this time of peace, Jesus (and God?) are reigning on earth and lions lay down with lambs but men fight and kill each other, sin is still abounding (though satan is tied up for a thoudsand years) and so capital punishment under Mosaic Law is taking place (not sure who is rebelling or being killed since dispensational theology says the rest of the dead aren't raised until the 1,000 years is over....this needs some tweaking.

finally after 1,000 years of unknown activity, presumabl people get saved but we're not sure how since it is no longer byu grace through faith, since jesus is reigning visibily from jerusalem. perhaps its animals sacrifcies? or some say sacrifices of love and praise are what's meant.

in any case, appranetly lots of people get saved, then they have to die again since they are in flesh bodies, so i guess that's how it works in the general resurrection at the end of the 1,000 years when all are Judged.

then, we are told, finally, down comes New Jerusalem ( did it come down with jesus before the 1,000 years?) and eternity begins. we are undecided as to whether the earth is renewed at this point or whtehr jesus makes a new earth now.

and they live happily ever after since ALL israel got saved by hook or by crook, no matter it meant reversing the Eternal Plan and having jesus not be king or priest or Lamb or anything like that til the 70th week way in the future.

~ back to Daniel to see if that story lines up:


the 60th week ended and the 70th followed right after (imagine that!) when jesus went to the jordan to baptised by john, who said BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD, identifying according to Daniel's prophecy that the messiah had come in the flesh.

there would 69 weeks UNTIL messaih.

notice how john said TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD. that means that jesus made an end to sin for all to whom the promise had been made IF THEY RECEIVED HIM.

Jesus came and said: THE TIME IS FULFILLED

what TIME was he talking about? He was talking to the jews, right?

Mark 1:15
Jesus Begins His Ministry
Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Jesus was to be cut off AFTER 69 weeks, in the midst of the next. (see Septuagint Daniel 9:27)

in the 70th week he caused all animal sacrifices to cease forever.

He was cut off in the middle o a week, and since the 69 had already past, that left one week to be cut off in.

if he was not cut off in the 70th week, the other 69 have not been fulfilled either since they would have nothing whatsoever to do with jesus. in which case we are men most miserable indeed since we have no Saviour no Lamb Sacrificed, no end made of your sins, no righteousness imputed to our accounts.

Daniel 9:27
and he (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant (Romans 15:8)*with many for one week (70th): and in the midst of the week he (Jesus) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Calvary), and for the overspreading of abominations (all antichrist activity in the temple Cult) he shall make it (the temple mount) desolate (decreed as He sat overlooking Jerusalem), even until the consummation (of the decree which took place in 70AD by Titus), and that determined (the decree made by Jesus in His 70th week) shall be poured upon the desolate (Temple torn down not one stone standing upon another)

Romans 15:8
For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs

to anoint The Most Holy was fulfilled when Jesus was baptised by John as the signal the messianic era had begun.

Luke 4:18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Hebrews 1:9
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

the body of Jesus was The temple
the fullness of the GodHead dwelt in Him bodily, doing away with the old temple forever.

and now christians would become the temple by the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

Mount Moriah was left desolate.

since jesus was cut off half way throug the 70th week, 3 1/2 years remained...we can go to the Books of Acts, and the episles to see the gospel going to the gentiles, and thereby fulfilling that portion of the 70th week as well.

the New Covenant is the everlasting Covenant, and salvation in this Covenant is only through the shed blood of the lamb Jesus who was offered up once for all.

Hebrews 13:20
Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant.


The 70th Week was fulfilled three and one
half years into the Church when the Gentiles were grafted in to bring its
completion and the Messianic hope to its full reality.

until the Second Advent when Jesus comes in Flaming Fire and Judgment all jews and gentiles need to pressinto The New Covenant, obey Acts 2:38 (repent and baptised), receiving Jesus by faith or simply and tragically be lost.

i do not understand why we have gone so far away from the gospel once for all delivered to saints.

zone.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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Dan 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (the Jews) and the Holy City (Jerusalem). This is very important because it discloses the fact that the seventy weeks have nothing to do with the Gentiles or the Church but only with the Jews and Jerusalem.
 
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Scotth1960

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Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The seventy weeks are determined upon
thy people (the Jews) and the Holy City (Jerusalem). This is very important because it discloses the fact that the seventy weeks have nothing to do with the Gentiles or the Church but only with the Jews and Jerusalem.

The age of the Jews (the OT) is over; the age of the Church (Jew and Gentiles equal in Christ) has begun. There will be no more animal sacrifices or return to the full Law of Moses. The Law is fulfilled and accomplished in Jesus Christ Who said on the Cross "IT IS FINISHED" (THE OLD TESTAMENT IS FINISHED, COMPLETED, FULFILLED). THE 70 WEEKS ARE OVER. THE JEWS HAVE NO MORE MANDATE FOR A SEPARATE COVENANT FROM THE GENTILES. THERE IS A NEW COVENANT WITH ISRAEL: THE NEW TESTAMENT OF OUR LORD GOD AND SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST. ALL OF THE PROMISES TO ABRAHAM ARE YES IN JESUS CHRIST.
 

VW

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The age of the Jews (the OT) is over; the age of the Church (Jew and Gentiles equal in Christ) has begun. There will be no more animal sacrifices or return to the full Law of Moses. The Law is fulfilled and accomplished in Jesus Christ Who said on the Cross "IT IS FINISHED" (THE OLD TESTAMENT IS FINISHED, COMPLETED, FULFILLED). THE 70 WEEKS ARE OVER. THE JEWS HAVE NO MORE MANDATE FOR A SEPARATE COVENANT FROM THE GENTILES. THERE IS A NEW COVENANT WITH ISRAEL: THE NEW TESTAMENT OF OUR LORD GOD AND SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST. ALL OF THE PROMISES TO ABRAHAM ARE YES IN JESUS CHRIST.
If this is true, then Gabriel lied to Ezekiel.

What is missed so often is that God made specific promises to the nation of Israel. He will keep every one of those promises.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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by Bruce Hurt
http://www.preceptaustin.org/a_testimony_to_god's_grace.htm

Of the Early Church Fathers we read in more detail that...
"Papias, who had personal contact with those taught by Christ and His apostles and may well have been a disciple of the apostle John, asserted that “the Lord used to teach concerning those [end] times” that “there will be a period of a thousand years after the resurrection of the dead and the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth” (cited in Eusebius HE iii.39.12; Irenaeus Adv. haer v.33.3f).... (Papias') account is a weighty testimony to primitive Christian eschatological beliefs...Justin Martyr, “the most important of the Greek apologists of the second century” (Quasten, I, 196), while granting that “many who belong to the pure and pious faith and are true Christians think otherwise” than he on the millennial issue, explicitly declared: “I and others are right-minded Christians in all points and are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged” (Dial. 80f; cf. J. Daniélou, VC, 2 [1948], 1–16)....

In taking a millennial viewpoint, these fathers ranged themselves on the side of orthodoxy in two particulars: they supported the apostolicity and canonicity of Revelation (against those who combined a denial of its authenticity with amillennialism, e.g., Dionysius of Alexandria, as cited in Eusebius HE vii.14.1–3; 24.6–8); and they opposed both the Gnostics, whose dualistic spiritualizing of Christian doctrine completely wiped out eschatological hope, and Christian Platonists such as Origen (De prin. ii.11.2), whose rejection of a literal millennium stemmed from an idealistic depreciation of matter and a highly dangerous allegorical (Ed note: Figurative, symbolic and specifically having deeper or hidden spiritual meaning that transcends the literal sense of a sacred text! It is a method of interpreting a text in which the characters, events or places signify “deeper” meanings than their literal meaning. The allegorical method was especially employed with difficult texts. Even opponents of a literal millennial interpretation can clearly discern the potential pitfalls and dangers of the allegorical approach to the Word of Truth.) hermeneutic (Ed note: hermeneutics is the "science" or study of the methodological principles of interpretation, in this case of the Scripture)". (A. C. McGiffert, History of Christian Thought, I [1932], 227f)." (Bromiley, G. W. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised. Vol. 3, Page 357-358. Wm. B. Eerdmans) (Bolding added)

If the early church believed in the Millennium, what happened to relegate this view to obscurity for most of the "Middle Ages"? The answer is probably far more complex, but the short answer is based upon fact that the influential theologian Augustine interpreted who initially interpreted "1000 years" literally. Augustine however later recanted being driven away from that position by the “immoderate, carnal” extremism of some of its advocates (Civ. Dei xx.7), and began to interpret the "1000 years" as not an actual length of time but as a "symbol", which in turn led to the pontification of the teaching that there was no literal 1000 year reign of Christ upon earth, a doctrine usually referred to as "Amillennialism". More specifically, Augustine began to follow the symbolical-mystical hermeneutic approach of the fourth-century donatist Tyconius (a schismatic heretical Christian sect originating in N Africa in 311 AD, that maintained that it alone constituted the true church and arose out of the initial teaching of Donatus who sought to separate the “pure” church from the “apostate,” or “fallen,” church) in arguing that

the "1000 years" of Revelation 20 actually designated the interval “from the first coming of Christ to the end of the world, when He shall come the second time” (xx.8). Thus was “a new era in prophetic interpretation” introduced, wherein Augustine’s conception of the millennium as “spiritualized into a present politico-religious fact, fastens itself upon the church for about thirteen long centuries” (Froom, I, 479, with tabular summary of medieval views, 896f; see also R. C. Petry, Christian Eschatology and Social Thought: A Historical Essay on the Social Implications of Some Selected Aspects in Christian Eschatology to a.d. 1500 [1956], pp. 312–336). (ibid)
The Protestant Reformation brought about a renewed interest in the idea of "Sola Scriptura" (the Scriptures alone) but did not completely reverse Augustine's symbolic/mystical approach to interpretation of Revelation 20. It seems that most of the Reformers...

"were so (legitimately) preoccupied with correcting the Church’s soteriological (doctrines dealing with how a person is genuinely saved or born again) errors that they could not give high priority to eschatology (study of future events). But from the pre-Reformers Wycliff and Huss to Luther, Calvin, and the doctrinal affirmations of Protestant Orthodoxy, the papacy was identified with the antichrist. This conviction led many Reformation Protestants to believe that the end of the world was at hand (T. F. Torrance, SJT, Occasional Papers 2, pp. 36–62; Vulliaud, pp. 127f). Had it not been for the outbreak of chiliasm (believe in a literal 1000 years) in a particularly offensive form at Münster (1534), early Church teaching on the millennium might have been recovered along with other doctrines obscured in the medieval synthesis. The speculations of radicals, however, as concretized in Münzer’s “Zion,” were so offensive to all that this was rendered impossible. The Augsburg Confession, art 17 (Lutheran) and the Helvetic Confession, art 11 (Reformed) expressly rejected such “Jewish opinions” (but, let it be noted, did not reject millennialism per se — cf. Peters, Theocratic Kingdom, I, 531–34; M. Reu, Lutheran Dogmatics [1951], pp. 483–87; and Saarnivaara, pp. 94f)." (ibid) (Bolding added)

It is interesting that many of the Reformers interpreted the millennium to be a period of 1,000 years, but that this 1000 years was variously dated as in the past time, during which the gospel flourished. They interpreted the release of Satan from bondage after 1000 years as coinciding with the rise of the medieval papacy (as alluded to the previous quote). Not all early Protestants agreed with the predominant view of the Reformers as shown by the return to a literal interpretation of Revelation 20 in the early 17th century, especially under the influence of Joseph Mede (1586-1638). By the 1800's under the influence of J N Darby (1800-1882), founder of the Plymouth Brethren movement, there was a rising interest in interpretation of the "1000 years" as a literal "1000 years". The upshot is that for the past 2000 years there have always been genuine believers who espoused a literal interpretation of Revelation 20. so that this approach is not a "product" of modern day evangelicals, especially those who hold to a dispensational approach to theology. (See also article on The Millennial Position of Spurgeon by Dennis Swanson)

Finally, let us conclude these background comments on the "1000 years" by quoting an honest, albeit liberal amillennialist, S. D. F. Salmond (in "Christian Doctrine of Immortality" 2nd ed 1896) who admits that...

“The figurative interpretation, it must be owned, cannot be made exegetically good even in its most plausible applications... This remarkable paragraph in John’s Apocalypse speaks of a real millennial reign of Christ on earth together with certain of His saints, which comes in between a first resurrection and the final judgment” (pp. 441f).(ibid, p360)

Does the Old Testament support the idea of a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth? There is no specific statement defining a 1000 year period of time in the OT. There are however many passages that describe a period associated with the return of Christ in which there are unique physical, spiritual and political characteristics which are very compatible with the one thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. As the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states
"it is almost universally admitted, by both opponents and advocates of millennialism, that the case for the doctrine rests squarely on the exegesis of Revelation 20. (ibid)
 
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Dutch41

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The age of the Jews (the OT) is over; the age of the Church (Jew and Gentiles equal in Christ) has begun. There will be no more animal sacrifices or return to the full Law of Moses. The Law is fulfilled and accomplished in Jesus Christ Who said on the Cross "IT IS FINISHED" (THE OLD TESTAMENT IS FINISHED, COMPLETED, FULFILLED). THE 70 WEEKS ARE OVER. THE JEWS HAVE NO MORE MANDATE FOR A SEPARATE COVENANT FROM THE GENTILES. THERE IS A NEW COVENANT WITH ISRAEL: THE NEW TESTAMENT OF OUR LORD GOD AND SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST. ALL OF THE PROMISES TO ABRAHAM ARE YES IN JESUS CHRIST.
If that is true,.. the ages of the Christians is over too.. because they made more mistakes ever.. than the Jews did.
 

VW

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If this is true, then Gabriel lied to Ezekiel.

What is missed so often is that God made specific promises to the nation of Israel. He will keep every one of those promises.
I misspoke here. Gabriel is not the one who was showing Ezekiel the temple and the holy city. It seems to me to have been the Lord Himself.
 

zone

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this is posted for people with an ability to read with comprehension, coupled with a desire to truly know what the Bible says, regardless of whether or not they agree in the end.


Dispensationalism justifies the Crucifixion

Philip Mauro

2008-12-20

...Most earnestly, therefore, do we entreat all who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity to search out and to consider carefully the copious testimony of the Gospels as to what He actually preached and taught in the days of His flesh concerning His mission to Israel and particularly concerning the nature of the Kingdom He was about to establish,- keeping in mind that any testimony which would support the postponement theory of our day, would have supported the accusation of our Lord's enemies of that day....

....Never from that day to this, through all the intervening centuries of time, have even the enemies of Christ sought to fasten upon Him the baseless charge of offering to the Jews of His day the restoration of their national independence, the charge of fomenting insurrection against the constituted civil rulers of His day - "the powers that be:" which then as now were "ordained of God" (Rom. 13: 1).

How amazing then that in our day a system of doctrine should have suddenly made its appearance among those who profess the strictest orthodoxy, a doctrine which maintains as the truth of Scripture (when "rightly divided") that both our Lord and also His accredited servants, by His authority, had been doing persistently and over a period of years the very things whereof He was accused before Pilate!.....

...So we must reach the point where Pilate listened to the Lord's own testimony as to the character of the Kingdom He had proclaimed. It is recorded in these words, which are clear and decisive "Jesus answered, 'My Kingdom is not of this world.' If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered up to the Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence" (John 18: 36).

The words "of this world:" twice repeated, signify the source or origin of the kingdom referred to. The preposition here rendered ‘of' (ek) means "from" or "out of." And we are bound to understand otherwise we could impute guile and insincerity to the Lord, that when He said, "My Kingdom" He meant that kingdom which had been proclaimed publicly by Himself, by His apostles, and by John the Baptist. This testimony from the True Witness does away with the strange idea that He (and His servants) had announced two (some of our expositors say three) different kingdoms - as different in character as the earthly rule of an earthly monarch like David or Caesar, and a kingdom purely spiritual and heavenly. There never was, from "the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" (Mark 1: 1-3), but one Kingdom in view; and that was and is the very same Kingdom concerning which our Lord testified before Pilate saying, "My kingdom is not of this world."

....These words clear away (or should do so for all who receive His testimony) the idea that earthly dominion was, at anytime or in any sense, embraced within the scope of the Lord's mission at His first coming. Certainly it convinced Pilate, however unconvincingly it may be to some modern Bible teachers. For Pilate, after his interrogation of the Lord went forth again to the Jews and said to them, "I find no fault in this man" (v. 38). This decision he pronounced in the light also of the further words of Christ recorded in verse 37: "Thou sayest that I am a King. To this end was I born" (i.e. to the end that He might be a king) "and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth."....

...He was born a King indeed, and "the King of the Jews", too (Matthew 2:2); but not to set up at that time a kingdom which would conflict with the rule of Caesar, much less a kingdom that would supplant it. Such was the decision reached by Caesar's representative, and such became the final judgment never reversed and so far as the present writer is informed never disputed, until called in question by certain Bible expositors of our time. From that day onward not even the enemies of Christ have ever claimed that He had sought or proposed either directly or indirectly, to set up the earthly throne of David until within recent years that baseless charge has been revived and given to the Lord's people as "new light:" derived by a process of a "rightly dividing the word of truth." It is an amazing thing.


...That Pilate clearly understood the issue presented to him admits of no doubt whatever. The accusation related to the setting up of a claim to an earthly kingdom, and Pilate was convinced that Christ had not spoken of a kingdom of that sort. This further appears by the fact that when Pilate, after having acquitted the Lord Jesus, sought to release Him, the Jews cried out, saying: "If thou let this man go thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a King speaketh against Caesar" (John 19: 12). That would have been quite true if an earthly King and an earthly kingdom had been in question. But the truth is, and Pilate was forced to decree and publish it, that Christ had never spoken of an earthly kingdom, but solely of a heavenly kingdom - a kingdom "NOT OF THIS WORLD."

....The reader is called upon to say whether, with all the facts now before him, he will join himself with the chief priests and rulers of the Jews in accusing the Lord Jesus Christ of stirring up insurrection against Caesar, and seeking to set up another government.....

APPENDIX
The argument which the author has developed in the foregoing pages was concisely set forth several decades ago in one of his books - GOD'S PRESENT KINGDOM. A lawyer in one of our largest cities, after reading that volume, wrote the author a letter which contained the following:
"If in the mind of anyone who reads this book there is anything left of the 'postponement' theory I cannot imagine what it is. There is one argument which seems to me, it may be because of my profession, is the strongest argument against the postponement theory, and when I read it on page 203 of the book I was surprised that it had not occurred to me before.

It is this: 'Manifestly, had the Lord uttered a single word that could have been construed as a proclamation or suggestion that He was about to claim the throne, or would accept it, there would have been thousands of witnesses to prove the accusation. But there was no proof forthcoming. And be it noted that anything which would prove today our friends' theory, would have proved then the accusation which the priests and Pharisees brought against the Lord before Pilate'.

That last sentence puts the whole case in a nutshell; and I do not see how anyone can get away from it. It is surprising to me that Dr. Scofield, being a lawyer by profession, and for many years in actual practice, did not see this as a fatal objection to his theory, but then as I say, I wholly missed the point myself until my attention was called to it in your book"

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