Forever Until Or Mistranslations

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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#1
The "forever until" principle should really more accurately be termed "present time until" principle, NOT "forever-until.

The terms "forever and ever," "eternal," "everlasting," etc., are MIStranslations which appear in many of our leading "selling" translations, but they never appeared in the original languages of the Scriptures. The wages of sin have always been DEATH, NOT "everlasting" punishment, "everlasting" destruction" or burning in a lake of fire "for ever and ever."

How long is the "eternity" REALLY? The following are"selling" in English translations:

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until-- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until--Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until-- and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.

God is now calling out "a people for His name"--an "elect" or chosen priesthood people who will represent and reflect His loving nature. Many are called and few are chosen--until--the small chosen priesthood people, by the Spirit, restore "David's tabernacle" so ALL mankind may inquire of the Lord.

Thus we see that the church is the first-born, the beginning--until--in ALL (later born new creatures in Christ) our Lord will have supremacy (Amos 9:11-12, Matt. 22:14, Acts 15:14-18, Eph. 3:15, Col. 1 18).

All manner of sin will be forgiven in this AGE as well as in the AGE (not eternity) to come, except blasphemy against God's Spirit-until--such blasphemy finds pardon in the fullness of the times (or ages) when God unites all in Christ. For the Lord does not retain His anger forever because He delights in mercy (Matt. 12:32; 18:11,21-22, Eph. 1:9-11, Rev. 4:11; 5:13, Mic. 7:18-20).

God's wrath has come upon Israel "to the uttermost" (1 Thess. 2:16).

So there is a gulf between "the rich man in purple" (Royal Covenant "Son", Israel) and the saved gentiles (Lazarus) which no man can cross--until--Christ Himself crosses it to bring His promised restoration. For again, Scripture promises that ALL Israel will be saved (Jer. 50:5, Luke 16:19-26, John 12:32, Romans 11:26-29).

Christ's fallen apostle, Judas, will be restored just as surely as fallen Israel (of which he is a member) will be restored. For the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable, and He has purposed to unite all in Christ. For Scripture assures us that He who calls us is 'faithful". He will surely perform it. So Judas is lost-until--the Lord restores Him (John 15:16, 1 Thess. 5:24).

So, Christ will say to unrighteous NATIONS, "Depart from Me into 'everlasting' fire." And these nations will go away into "everlasting" (original language: age-lasting) punishment or pruning, that is--until--by God's severe mercy shown in judgment, ALL nations He has made glorify and worship Him. Thus God will fulfill His covenant with Abraham that in Christ all the families of ALL the nations will be BLESSED (Gen. 12:3, Ps. 62:12, 67:4, 86:9, Matt. 25:41,46).

For according to Paul (Gal. 3:8), God's covenant with Abraham means that ALL will be justified and set right with God. So all flesh will bless His name forever and ever (Ps. 145:21).

Therefore, ALL scriptural references that speak of everlasting fire or judgment MUST be understood in light of God's (Love's) clearly expressed heart, promise, desire, purpose and will. They ARE "everlasting"; that is, they are continuous and on-going--until--God's judgments serve to accomplish His unchanging will and purpose to unite ALL creation in Christ. (Gen. 12:3, Romans 4:13, Heb. 6:17).

Truly God's judgments are in the earth-until-mercy shall triumph over those judgments. (James 2:13)

In Adam ALL died, that is,--until-in Christ shall ALL be made alive, but each in his own order. (1 Cor. 15:22)

Paul reemphasized this important truth in Romans 5:18. "Through the one man's offense judgment came to ALL men, resulting in condemnation, that is,--until-through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life." It is righteous AND fair that because all were condemned to death through Adam's one act of disobedience that God undo that unrighteous act and give us all live. We didn't ask to die and we should have to ask to live. God is God. Do we get mad when He becomes good to all just because He delights in doing good? There is a parable about some workers who worked all day yet were given the same wages as those who only worked a short while. Perhaps we, Christians, should learn the lesson of that parable. (Matt. 20:1-16) What is in us that doesn't think it's fair if God gives us all eternal life? After all, did we earn ours? Maybe that's where the real problem lies. Many of us have been duped into mixing law and works with grace thereby falling from grace and becoming unrighteous judges just like the Pharisees of old.

Gehenna's fires are not quenched and its worm does not die--until--the restoration of all things which has been spoken of by all God's holy prophets (Christ included) since the world began. For our Savior did not come to contradict His own prophets. Our Good Shepherd and Faithful Deliverer came to fulfill the law and the prophets! Thus our Lord does not cast off forever (Lam. 3:31-32, Heb. 13:8).

He who taught us to forgive and bless our enemies will surely do the same for His.

For every tongue will give thanks that in Him they have righteousness and strength. All flesh will bless His name forever and ever! For our Lord will not fail or become discouraged until He fulfills all of God's purpose, word and will. For He tells us that everyone will be "seasoned" with fire (Matt. 5:17, Mark 9:42-49, Acts 3:21).

Those who disobey the gospel and persecute Christians will be repaid with "everlasting" (that is, continuous) tribulation, destruction and punishment-until--by such persistent correction God shows them their need for Christ. So what is written in the prophets will come to pass, that ALL shall be taught of God, and everyone who has heard and LEARNED from the Father (eventually) comes to Christ. Thus, all the families of the nations will remember Him and worship before Him. And all will submit to Him and sing His praise. So God's promise will be fulfilled that ALL men shall reverence Him proclaim His works, and wisely consider His doing (Ps. 22:27-28, 64:4-5, 64:9, 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

Paul: "Again I ask: Did they (Israel) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? NOT AT ALL! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the gentiles (pagans, all who are spiritually unenlightened) to make Israel envious. For if their transgression means RICHES for the WORLD, and their loss means riches for the gentiles--how much greater riches will their (Israel's) fullness bring?"
Wow. . . ! In the next three verses Paul assures us:
that Israel's fall is the reconciliation of the WORLD;
that Israel's fall will be (for them and all the world) life from the dead! (Ez. 37);
that because the FIRST fruit (Israel) is holy, the whole world ("lump" or "harvest field") is holy.

Read all of Romans chapter eleven, and the Scriptures will clearly speak for themselves. Practice reading all of God's Word in light of His character, commitment, purpose and reliable good pleasure and will.

To see the full article Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever</b></font>
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#2
Number of times "Hell" appears in the text in English Bible Translations

(If you want to do the numbers yourself I recommend using biblegateway.com. Use each translation and keyword "hell" and this will give you the number of times used in both OT and NT of that version.)

Bible Translations............................. Old Testament........... New Testament......... Total

"Authorized" King James Version ..............31 ..........................23....................... 54

New King James Version........................ 19...........................13....................... 32

American Standard Version...................... 0...........................13....................... 13

New American Standard Bible ...................0........................... 13....................... 13

Revised Standard Version........................ 0 ..........................12....................... 12

New Revised Standard Version ..................0 ..........................12....................... 12

Revised English Bible.............................. 0.......................... 13....................... 13

New Living Translation ............................0 ..........................13....................... 13

Amplified ............................................0.......................... 13....................... 13

New International Version (best-selling English Bible)
........................................................0 ..........................14....................... 14

Darby................................................ 0.......................... 12....................... 12

New Century Version.............................. 0 ..........................12....................... 12

Wesley's New Testament (1755)...............................................0 ........................0

Scarlett's N.T. (1798)........................................................... 0........................ 0

The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
......................................................................................0 .......................0

Young's Literal Translation (1891)................ 0........................... 0....................... 0

Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)................................... 0....................... 0

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
........................................................0 ............................0....................... 0

Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
........................................................0............................ 0....................... 0

Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903).....................0 .......................0

Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)..................... 0....................... 0

Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)............................. 0........................ 0

The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)............................. 0........................ 0

Hanson's New Covenant (1884)............................................... 0........................ 0

Western N.T. (1926)............................................................ 0........................ 0

NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)...................... 0....................... 0

Concordant Literal NT (1983)................................................... 0....................... 0

The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)................................. 0........................ 0

Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)................0........................ 0

New American Bible (1970)........................... 0........................0 .........................0

Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976).. 0...................... 0......................... 0

Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)....................... 0......................... 0

The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980).................. 0..........................0

Christian Bible (1991).................................. 0....................... 0......................... 0

World English Bible (in progress)...................... 0...................... 0......................... 0

Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only].................................. 0.......................... 0

Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
...........................................................0 .......................0........................... 0

Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)......................0 ...........................0

Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)..................0........................... 0

A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960).............0 ...........................0

* The KJV and the NKJV are the only two of the major translations in the list above to use "Hell" in the Old Testament. Even the NKJV which was only supposed to modernize the English of the traditional "Authorized Version," the KJV, took a dozen Hell references out. (2 Sam 22:6, Job 11:8, Job 26:6, Ps 16:10, Ps 18:5, Ps 26:13, Ps 116:3. Is 5:14, Is 28:15, Is 57:9, Jonah 2:2). It seems even in the King James Tradition, the use of the word "Hell" is decreasing.

Here are a handful of Scriptures which declare why God the Father sent His only begotten Son into this world:
God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:17)
Who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world. (John 6:33)
The Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. (Luke 9:56)
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. (John 12:32)
As you have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as you have given Him. (John 17:2)
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. (John 3:35)
God, Who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, Whom He has appointed heir of all things, through Whom also He made the worlds. (Hebrews 1:1,2)
His purpose is very clear: to reconcile all things back to His Father. (Col. 1:16-20)

Ref: Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever</b></font>
 
D

dmdave17

Guest
#3
Dear Loves Texas (Is there anyone who lives there that doesn't?),

Your point about hell is very interesting and provocative. Do you see it as evidence that "political correctness" has even crept into our biblical translations? For any believer, it would seem to me, since Jesus himself mentions hell by name (Matthew 5:29-30, for example), there can be no doubt that the place exists and that when a soul is sent there, there is "much weeping and gnashing of teeth".
 
Mar 11, 2009
463
2
0
#4
Peace be to you
Nice read,After reading the bible many times forever often means,one generation.God however is not controlled by time as we are as he knows all things.Fortelling the future.I truly believe God has no limitations.Forinstance if he knows all thing present and future you can pray for the dead.
Love a friend in God
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
0
#5
Number of times "Hell" appears in the text in English Bible Translations

(If you want to do the numbers yourself I recommend using biblegateway.com. Use each translation and keyword "hell" and this will give you the number of times used in both OT and NT of that version.)

Bible Translations............................. Old Testament........... New Testament......... Total

"Authorized" King James Version ..............31 ..........................23....................... 54

New King James Version........................ 19...........................13....................... 32

American Standard Version...................... 0...........................13....................... 13

New American Standard Bible ...................0........................... 13....................... 13

Revised Standard Version........................ 0 ..........................12....................... 12

New Revised Standard Version ..................0 ..........................12....................... 12

Revised English Bible.............................. 0.......................... 13....................... 13

New Living Translation ............................0 ..........................13....................... 13

Amplified ............................................0.......................... 13....................... 13

New International Version (best-selling English Bible)
........................................................0 ..........................14....................... 14

Darby................................................ 0.......................... 12....................... 12

New Century Version.............................. 0 ..........................12....................... 12

Wesley's New Testament (1755)...............................................0 ........................0

Scarlett's N.T. (1798)........................................................... 0........................ 0

The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
......................................................................................0 .......................0

Young's Literal Translation (1891)................ 0........................... 0....................... 0

Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)................................... 0....................... 0

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
........................................................0 ............................0....................... 0

Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
........................................................0............................ 0....................... 0

Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903).....................0 .......................0

Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)..................... 0....................... 0

Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)............................. 0........................ 0

The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)............................. 0........................ 0

Hanson's New Covenant (1884)............................................... 0........................ 0

Western N.T. (1926)............................................................ 0........................ 0

NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)...................... 0....................... 0

Concordant Literal NT (1983)................................................... 0....................... 0

The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)................................. 0........................ 0

Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)................0........................ 0

New American Bible (1970)........................... 0........................0 .........................0

Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976).. 0...................... 0......................... 0

Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)....................... 0......................... 0

The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980).................. 0..........................0

Christian Bible (1991).................................. 0....................... 0......................... 0

World English Bible (in progress)...................... 0...................... 0......................... 0

Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only].................................. 0.......................... 0

Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
...........................................................0 .......................0........................... 0

Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)......................0 ...........................0

Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)..................0........................... 0

A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960).............0 ...........................0

* The KJV and the NKJV are the only two of the major translations in the list above to use "Hell" in the Old Testament. Even the NKJV which was only supposed to modernize the English of the traditional "Authorized Version," the KJV, took a dozen Hell references out. (2 Sam 22:6, Job 11:8, Job 26:6, Ps 16:10, Ps 18:5, Ps 26:13, Ps 116:3. Is 5:14, Is 28:15, Is 57:9, Jonah 2:2). It seems even in the King James Tradition, the use of the word "Hell" is decreasing.

Here are a handful of Scriptures which declare why God the Father sent His only begotten Son into this world:
God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:17)
Who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world. (John 6:33)
The Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. (Luke 9:56)
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. (John 12:32)
As you have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as you have given Him. (John 17:2)
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. (John 3:35)
God, Who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, Whom He has appointed heir of all things, through Whom also He made the worlds. (Hebrews 1:1,2)
His purpose is very clear: to reconcile all things back to His Father. (Col. 1:16-20)

Ref: Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever</b></font>
You desperately need some serious language study if you're going to put things together like this.

Sheol and Hades are the grave. Ge(h)enna is the lake of fire. Both are variously rendered hell.

Your invalid conclusions are based on a shallow English skim-search.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#6
Dear Loves Texas (Is there anyone who lives there that doesn't?),

Your point about hell is very interesting and provocative. Do you see it as evidence that "political correctness" has even crept into our biblical translations? For any believer, it would seem to me, since Jesus himself mentions hell by name (Matthew 5:29-30, for example), there can be no doubt that the place exists and that when a soul is sent there, there is "much weeping and gnashing of teeth".
"Political correctness"? No, I just see an err that has influenced the believers to keep and hold tightly that belief of Hell irregardless of the origin of that err.

There is a simple story that shows we believe all that was done before us was correct, even though we do not know why it was correct or if we should even be holding on to a man made tradition.

A young couple married. The wife prepared a roast, cutting both ends of the roast before placing in the pan. The husband asked "Why do you cut off both ends of the roast before you put it into the pan?" She answered, "I don't know. My mother always did it that way."

So occasion comes, and the young couple is at the mother of the wife. Again the young husband observes his mother-in-law cutting both ends of the roast before placing in the pan. He asks his mother-in-law "Why do you cut off both ends of the roast before you place it in the pan?" She answered "I don't know. That is how my mother always did it."

So occasion comes, and the young couple are at the grandmothers. Again the young husband observes his grandmother-in-law cutting both ends of the roast before placing in the pan. He asks "Why do you cut off both ends of the roast before placing it in the pan?" She looked at him with an eyebrow raised and answered him "You silly boy! If I didn't cut both ends of the roast off IT WOULDN'T FIT IN THE PAN!". So the moral is, tradition without understanding the origin.

The Message = Matthew 5:29-30 "Let's not pretend this is easier than it really is. If you want to live a morally pure life, here's what you have to do: You have to blind your right eye the moment you catch it in a lustful leer. You have to choose to live one-eyed or else be dumped on a moral trash pile. And you have to chop off your right hand the moment you notice it raised threateningly. Better a bloody stump than your entire being discarded for good in the dump.

This is one translation and there are more. Note even the NKJV has deleted 24 verses that use Hell. Do you suppose they are correcting the error or is this just another plot of Satan's?

I hope none believe that the Universalism No Hell belief is a blank ticket for all to ride in with no accountability. That is not scriptual. God in his infinite wisdom has a plan, and "salted by fire" in this life is to preserve and purify us.

We will do well to remember theparable of the employer who paid the same wage to all the workers, regardless of how many hours or minutes they put in. He paid them all equally.
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
0
#7
As for your Adam/death-Jesus/life question...

All who aren't in Jesus/life are still in Adam/death.

Sufficient for all. Efficient for those who believe.

I could break down the Greek from the verses, but you are convinced of your new and unfounded belief.
 

PBUH

Banned
Jan 24, 2011
273
0
0
#8
Peace be to you
Nice read,After reading the bible many times forever often means,one generation.God however is not controlled by time as we are as he knows all things.Fortelling the future.I truly believe God has no limitations.Forinstance if he knows all thing present and future you can pray for the dead.
Love a friend in God
Amen to that.

I'd go one step further and say the future has already happened for God since God is outside time.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#9
You desperately need some serious language study if you're going to put things together like this.

Sheol and Hades are the grave. Ge(h)enna is the lake of fire. Both are variously rendered hell.

Your invalid conclusions are based on a shallow English skim-search.
Hey Pneuma, I see you haven't lost your zeal to poke at me with that so called "ignorance" you keep pointing out to me. When I think of you, I SMILE. When I see your post, I SMILE.
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
0
#10
Hey Pneuma, I see you haven't lost your zeal to poke at me with that so called "ignorance" you keep pointing out to me. When I think of you, I SMILE. When I see your post, I SMILE.
I'm not poking; I'm trying to provoke unto love and good works. The original languages from all the manuscripts contain the same words they always have, regardless of translation. The grave and LOF haven't disappeared from the manuscripts.

Hippie-love is "Sloppy Agape". Love was also Paul's rebuke to Peter. You seem to live by whatever random sequence of timely internet info appeals to you, and consider it divine providence. It is futile to rebut you.
 
Jul 30, 2010
882
4
0
#11
The "forever until" principle should really more accurately be termed "present time until" principle, NOT "forever-until.

The terms "forever and ever," "eternal," "everlasting," etc., are MIStranslations which appear in many of our leading "selling" translations, but they never appeared in the original languages of the Scriptures. The wages of sin have always been DEATH, NOT "everlasting" punishment, "everlasting" destruction" or burning in a lake of fire "for ever and ever."

How long is the "eternity" REALLY? The following are"selling" in English translations:

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until-- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until--Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until-- and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.

God is now calling out "a people for His name"--an "elect" or chosen priesthood people who will represent and reflect His loving nature. Many are called and few are chosen--until--the small chosen priesthood people, by the Spirit, restore "David's tabernacle" so ALL mankind may inquire of the Lord.

Thus we see that the church is the first-born, the beginning--until--in ALL (later born new creatures in Christ) our Lord will have supremacy (Amos 9:11-12, Matt. 22:14, Acts 15:14-18, Eph. 3:15, Col. 1 18).

God's wrath has come upon Israel "to the uttermost" (1 Thess. 2:16).

Christ's fallen apostle, Judas, will be restored just as surely as fallen Israel (of which he is a member) will be restored. For the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable, and He has purposed to unite all in Christ. For Scripture assures us that He who calls us is 'faithful". He will surely perform it. So Judas is lost-until--the Lord restores Him (John 15:16, 1 Thess. 5:24).

So, Christ will say to unrighteous NATIONS, "Depart from Me into 'everlasting' fire." And these nations will go away into "everlasting" (original language: age-lasting) punishment or pruning, that is--until--by God's severe mercy shown in judgment, ALL nations He has made glorify and worship Him. Thus God will fulfill His covenant with Abraham that in Christ all the families of ALL the nations will be BLESSED (Gen. 12:3, Ps. 62:12, 67:4, 86:9, Matt. 25:41,46).

For according to Paul (Gal. 3:8), God's covenant with Abraham means that ALL will be justified and set right with God. So all flesh will bless His name forever and ever (Ps. 145:21).

Therefore, ALL scriptural references that speak of everlasting fire or judgment MUST be understood in light of God's (Love's) clearly expressed heart, promise, desire, purpose and will. They ARE "everlasting"; that is, they are continuous and on-going--until--God's judgments serve to accomplish His unchanging will and purpose to unite ALL creation in Christ. (Gen. 12:3, Romans 4:13, Heb. 6:17).

Truly God's judgments are in the earth-until-mercy shall triumph over those judgments. (James 2:13)

In Adam ALL died, that is,--until-in Christ shall ALL be made alive, but each in his own order. (1 Cor. 15:22)

Paul reemphasized this important truth in Romans 5:18. "Through the one man's offense judgment came to ALL men, resulting in condemnation, that is,--until-through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life." It is righteous AND fair that because all were condemned to death through Adam's one act of disobedience that God undo that unrighteous act and give us all live. We didn't ask to die and we should have to ask to live. God is God. Do we get mad when He becomes good to all just because He delights in doing good? There is a parable about some workers who worked all day yet were given the same wages as those who only worked a short while. Perhaps we, Christians, should learn the lesson of that parable. (Matt. 20:1-16) What is in us that doesn't think it's fair if God gives us all eternal life? After all, did we earn ours? Maybe that's where the real problem lies. Many of us have been duped into mixing law and works with grace thereby falling from grace and becoming unrighteous judges just like the Pharisees of old.

Gehenna's fires are not quenched and its worm does not die--until--the restoration of all things which has been spoken of by all God's holy prophets (Christ included) since the world began. For our Savior did not come to contradict His own prophets. Our Good Shepherd and Faithful Deliverer came to fulfill the law and the prophets! Thus our Lord does not cast off forever (Lam. 3:31-32, Heb. 13:8).


Those who disobey the gospel and persecute Christians will be repaid with "everlasting" (that is, continuous) tribulation, destruction and punishment-until--by such persistent correction God shows them their need for Christ. So what is written in the prophets will come to pass, that ALL shall be taught of God, and everyone who has heard and LEARNED from the Father (eventually) comes to Christ. Thus, all the families of the nations will remember Him and worship before Him. And all will submit to Him and sing His praise. So God's promise will be fulfilled that ALL men shall reverence Him proclaim His works, and wisely consider His doing (Ps. 22:27-28, 64:4-5, 64:9, 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

Paul: "Again I ask: Did they (Israel) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? NOT AT ALL! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the gentiles (pagans, all who are spiritually unenlightened) to make Israel envious. For if their transgression means RICHES for the WORLD, and their loss means riches for the gentiles--how much greater riches will their (Israel's) fullness bring?"
Wow. . . ! In the next three verses Paul assures us:
that Israel's fall is the reconciliation of the WORLD;
that Israel's fall will be (for them and all the world) life from the dead! (Ez. 37);
that because the FIRST fruit (Israel) is holy, the whole world ("lump" or "harvest field") is holy.

Read all of Romans chapter eleven, and the Scriptures will clearly speak for themselves. Practice reading all of God's Word in light of His character, commitment, purpose and reliable good pleasure and will.

Thankyou, this is very interesting, and I enjoy reading what you write, as I agree with most of what you are saying, but concerning Judas I'm not sure that he will be forgiven? if you take a close look at psalm 109:6-18. You will notice that it's talking about Judas,(hidden in there so well!) you can also go to Acts 1:20 to confirm verse 8.
God Bless, Regards
Journey
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#12
Thankyou, this is very interesting, and I enjoy reading what you write, as I agree with most of what you are saying, but concerning Judas I'm not sure that he will be forgiven? if you take a close look at psalm 109:6-18. You will notice that it's talking about Judas,(hidden in there so well!) you can also go to Acts 1:20 to confirm verse 8.
God Bless, Regards
Journey
I see what you are saying in regard to the psalms verses, and only see eternal condemnation written in the KJV (again). The other translations don't even come close to that.
 
H

Heremon

Guest
#13
This article is courtesy of Matt Slick and the CARM team. They said it well and it is already printed...;).




Universalists place a great deal of weight on the word "aion," which means "age." From the Greek root "aion" we also have the word "aionion," which is translated in most instances in most Bibles as "eternal."
The significance of this is that Universalists maintain that there is no eternal punishment in hell fire. Therefore, they assert that the word "aionion" is in reference to "age duration" and can have temporal duration. With this assertion they try to substantiate their theological position that all people everywhere will ultimately be saved.
But, what do Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons have to say about the words and phrases used in Greek that are translated into the English "age", "world", "eternal," "forever", "forever and ever," etc.? Let's find out:
  1. aion -
    , - age, world
    1. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."1
  2. aionion, aionios -
    - eternal
    1. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
      1. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
      2. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
      3. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
      4. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
      5. etc.2
  3. "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty&#8211;six places in the N.T.
    1. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
    2. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
    3. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
    4. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"3
  4. Eis tous aionios ton aionion -
    - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
    1. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - &#8216;always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
    2. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
    3. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
    4. Rev. 20:10 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."4
These few references and quotes should be ample evidence that eternal hell, eternal fire, is real. It is a terrible reality and it is all the more important to preach the gospel. The universalists are wrong and their theology only dilutes the need to come to Christ.
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
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#14


I see what you are saying in regard to the psalms verses, and only see eternal condemnation written in the KJV (again). The other translations don't even come close to that.



THE TRANSLATIONS ALL COME FROM TWO MANUSCRIPT TRADITIONS. THE MANUSCRIPTS HAVE NOT CHANGED.

Hell is a hybridized misnomer. It is collectively used for both the grave and the lake of fire in the KJV. Others have simply clarified. You have NO credibility with your fallacious approach to such things.

Let's all hold hands and sing Kum-Ba-Yah. God is teddy bears, crayolas, and rainbows.

Do whatever you want... We all have eternal life in Christ.
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
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#15
This article is courtesy of Matt Slick and the CARM team. They said it well and it is already printed...;).




Universalists place a great deal of weight on the word "aion," which means "age." From the Greek root "aion" we also have the word "aionion," which is translated in most instances in most Bibles as "eternal."
The significance of this is that Universalists maintain that there is no eternal punishment in hell fire. Therefore, they assert that the word "aionion" is in reference to "age duration" and can have temporal duration. With this assertion they try to substantiate their theological position that all people everywhere will ultimately be saved.
But, what do Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons have to say about the words and phrases used in Greek that are translated into the English "age", "world", "eternal," "forever", "forever and ever," etc.? Let's find out:
  1. aion -
    , - age, world
    1. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."1
  2. aionion, aionios -
    - eternal
    1. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
      1. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
      2. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
      3. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
      4. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
      5. etc.2
  3. "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
    1. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
    2. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
    3. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
    4. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"3
  4. Eis tous aionios ton aionion -
    - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
    1. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
    2. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
    3. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
    4. Rev. 20:10 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."4
These few references and quotes should be ample evidence that eternal hell, eternal fire, is real. It is a terrible reality and it is all the more important to preach the gospel. The universalists are wrong and their theology only dilutes the need to come to Christ.
EXACTLY! And... If aionion refers to punishment in such manner, it refers likewise to life in such manner. No eternal punishment?... No eternal life. Eternal is eternal. Aionion is aionion. One can't pick and choose.
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
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#16
WLTx...

You need to thoroughly study:

Ge(h)enna (G1067)
Hades (G86) / Sheol (H7585)
Tartaroo (G5020)

Regardless of translational renderings into English, they are each in the manuscripts.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#17
WLTx...

You need to thoroughly study:

Ge(h)enna (G1067)
Hades (G86) / Sheol (H7585)
Tartaroo (G5020)

Regardless of translational renderings into English, they are each in the manuscripts.
The need to thoroughly study is in progress. Thanks for your posts. I'll continue to post as well and look forward to your posts.
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
0
#18
The need to thoroughly study is in progress. Thanks for your posts. I'll continue to post as well and look forward to your posts.
Wow! That was scriptural. How 'bout I just leave you to your random internet religion of such progression.
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
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#20
No random religion. Just confirmed. You also use internet for your confirmation?
No. The internet is to express and interact, but I don't confirm on the internet, especially foundational doctrine. Enjoy your piece-meal Word-substitution religion of progression without study.