Dispensationalism

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zone

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#1
DISPENSATIONALISM

The dispensationalist theology of John Nelson Darby which motivates one stream of American Christian Zionism is often claimed to be the foundation of American Christian Zionism. He first distinguished the hopes of the Jews and that of the church and gentiles in his ground-breaking series of 11 evening lectures in Geneva in 1840. His lectures were immediately published in French (L'Attente Actuelle de l'Eglise), English (1841), German and Dutch (1847) and so his teachings began their global journey.

While there is no doubt that it had a great influence through the Scofield Bible, Christian support of the restoration of the Jews preceded the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible (first published by OUP, 1917) for nearly a century, and many prominent Christian Zionists and Christian Zionist organizations such as the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem do not subscribe to dispensationalism.

The tycoon William Eugene Blackstone was inspired by the conference to publish the book Jesus is Coming, which took up the restorationist cause, and also absolved the Jews of the need to convert to Christianity either before or after the return of the Messiah. His book was translated and published in Yiddish. In 1891 he lobbied President Benjamin Harrison for the restoration of the Jews, in a petition signed by over 400 prominent Americans, that became known as the Blackstone Memorial.

In the United States, dispensationalist Christian Zionism was popularized by the evangelical Cyrus Scofield (1843–1921), who promoted the doctrine that Jesus could not return to reign on Earth until certain events occurred. In the interim, prior to these last days events, Scofield's system taught that the Christian church was primarily for the salvation of the Gentiles, and that according to God's plan the Jewish people are under a different dispensation of God's grace, which has been put out of gear so to speak, until the last days (the common name of this view is, dispensationalism), when the Christian Church will be removed from the earth by a miracle (called the Rapture).

Scofield writing in the 1900s said that, in those last days, the Bible predicts the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and particularly to Jerusalem. Scofield further predicted that, Islamic holy places would be destroyed, and the Temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt - signalling the very end of the Church Age when the Antichrist would arise, and all who seek to keep the covenant with God will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah in defiance of the Antichrist.

Charles Taze Russell was another early Christian advocate of Zionism - but with an altogether different prophetic programme to orthodox Trinitarian dispensationalists.

Christian Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

zone

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Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology

A History of Dispensational Approaches
By Rev. Steven Sizer

12/20/2000 "ICH" Dispensationalism is one of the most influential theological systems within the universal church today. Largely unrecognised and subliminal, it has increasingly shaped the presuppositions of fundamentalist, evangelical, Pentecostal and charismatic thinking concerning Israel and Palestine over the past one hundred and fifty years.

John Nelson Darby is regarded as the father of dispensationalism and its prodigy, Christian Zionism. It was Cyrus. I. Scofield and D. L. Moody, however, who brought Darby’s sectarian theology into mainstream evangelical circles. R. C. Sproul concedes that dispensationalism is now ‘...a theological system that in all probability is the majority report among current American evangelicals.’[[1]]

Most of the early popular American radio preachers such as Donald Grey Barnhouse, Charles E. Fuller, and M. R. DeHaan were dispensationalists. Today, virtually all the 'televangelists' such as Jerry Falwell, Jim Bakker, Paul Crouch, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart and Billy Graham are also dispensationalists.

Other leading dispensationalist writers include Charles Ryrie, Dwight Pentecost, John Walvoord, Eric Sauer, Charles Dyer, Tim LaHaye, Grant Jeffrey and Hal Lindsey. Notable political proponents include Jimmie Carter and Ronald Reagan. Probably the most significant Christian organisations to espouse dispensationalism have been the Moody Bible Institute, Dallas Theological Seminary and the International Christian Embassy, Jerusalem.

2. Dispensationalism Defined
The basic text upon which dispensationalism is based is the Authorised translation of 2 Timothy 2:15, where the Apostle Paul calls upon Timothy to ‘... rightly divide the word of truth.’ Scofield took this verse as the title for his first book which is a defence of this way of ‘dividing’ Scripture into discrete dispensations.[[2]] In its classical form, Charles Ryrie insists the sine qua non of Dispensationalism to be:

1. A dispensationalist keeps Israel and the Church distinct...
2. This distinction between Israel and the church is born out of a system of hermeneutics that is usually called literal interpretation...
3. A third aspect... concerns the underlying purpose of God in the world... namely, the glory of God... To the normative dispensationalist, the soteriological, or saving, program of God is not the only program but one of the means God is using in the total program of glorifying Himself.[[3]]

2.1 The Seven Dispensations
Following Darby and Scofield, dispensationalists claim to find in Scripture evidence of seven distinct dispensations during which humanity has been tested in respect of specific revelation as to the will of God. In each dispensation, including the present sixth dispensation of the Church, humanity has failed the test. These dispensations began with creation and will culminate in an exclusive Jewish kingdom on earth. Charles Ryrie offers the clearest outline of dispensationalism.[[4]]

~ click on link to see dispensational chart

These dispensations are seen by proponents as literally 'providing us with a chronological map to guide us'[[5]] toward the seventh and final dispensation which will be inaugurated by the imminent return of Jesus Christ and the climax to world history.

2.2 A Distinction Between Israel and the Church
Dispensationalists believe that God has two separate but parallel means of working - one through the Church, the other through Israel (the former being a parenthesis to the latter).[[6]] Thus there is, and always will remain, a distinction, 'between Israel, the Gentiles and the Church.'[[7]] Darby was not the first to insist on a radical distinction between Israel and the Church.

Marcion stressed the radical nature of Christianity vis-a-vis Judaism. In his theology there existed a total discontinuity between the OT and the NT, between Israel and the church, and even between the god of the OT and the Father of Jesus.[[8]]


It was, however, Darby who first insisted that: ‘The Jewish nation is never to enter the Church.’[[9]] Scofield developed this idea further:


Comparing then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, we find that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct and future destiny, all is contrast.[[10]]

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary and a student of Scofield's, elaborated on this dichotomy between Israel and the church:


The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.[[11]]

For Chafer, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’[[12]] that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology
 

zone

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#3
Cyrus Scofield

4. Cyrus I Scofield: The Author of the Scofield Reference Bible
The publication of the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909 by the Oxford University Press was something of a literary coup. For the first time, explicit dispensational notes were added to the pages of the biblical text. While such a systematic chronology was largely unknown prior to Darby and Scofield, the Scofield Reference Bible became the leading Bible used by American Evangelicals and Fundamentalists for the next sixty years.[[44]]


By 1945 more than 2 million copies had been published in the United States alone. Between 1967 and 1979 a further 1 million copies were sold.[[45]] In a move to make Scofield’s work more accessible, in 1984 a new edition based on the New International Version was published followed by a CD Rom electronic version.


Scofield's notes relied heavily on Darby's writings. Gerstner notes that the resemblance between Scofield and Darby ‘is deep and systematic.’[[46]] It is significant, however, that neither in the introduction nor in any of the accompanying notes does Scofield acknowledge his indebtedness to Darby.

In the Introduction to the Scofield Reference Bible, he claims it is the 'remarkable results of the modern study of the Prophets, in recovering to the church... a clear and coherent harmony of the predictive portions...' Scofield defined his dispensations as periods of time, '...during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God...'[[47]]


The Dispensations are distinguished, exhibiting the majestic, progressive order of the divine dealings of God with humanity, the 'increasing purpose' which runs through and links together the ages, from the beginning of the life of man to the end in eternity. Augustine said: 'Distinguish the ages, and the Scriptures harmonize.'[[48]]

Whether Augustine understood 'ages' in terms of Scofield's dispensations is extremely unlikely. Nevertheless, Scofield believed that his scheme of seven was natural and self evident in Scripture,


...there is a beautiful system in this gradualness of unfolding. The past is seen to fall into periods, marked off by distinct limits, and distinguishable period from period by something peculiar to each. Thus it comes to be understood that there is a doctrine of Ages or Dispensations in the Bible.[[49]]


Scofield's rigid adherence to these dispensations required him to make some novel assertions to ensure consistency. So, for example, in describing the transition between his fourth dispensation of promise to his fifth dispensation of law, Scofield claims,


The descendants of Abraham had but to abide in their own land to inherit every blessing... The Dispensation of Promise ended when Israel rashly accepted the law (Ex. 19. 8). Grace had prepared a deliverer [Moses], provided a sacrifice for the guilty, and by divine power brought them out of bondage (Ex. 19. 4); but at Sinai they exchanged grace for law.[[50]]
Similarly, in his introduction to the Gospels, Scofield imposes stark divisions before and after Calvary which lead him to the following assertions:


The mission of Jesus was, primarily, to the Jews... The Sermon on the Mount is law, not grace... The doctrines of Grace are to be sought in the Epistles not in the Gospels.[[51]]



Strangely, Scofield ignored the one division that is self-evident - that between the Old and New Covenants. Mark 1:1 categorically states, ‘The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ’ and Matthew 11:13 reads, ‘for all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.' Yet Scofield places the life and ministry of Jesus within the dispensation of law, along with John the Baptist and the Old Testament prophets. He argues that the sixth dispensation of grace only ‘begins with the death and resurrection of Christ’.[[52]] For Scofield, the Lord’s Prayer, and in particular the petition, ‘Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors’ (Matt. 6:12) are not applicable to the church, since it is ‘legal ground’.[[53]] Scofield taught that salvation by works had been possible during the dispensation of the law and that the apostasy of the Church will signal the end of the dispensation of grace:


As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ (Rom. 3. 24-26; 4. 24, 25). The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ... The predicted end of the testing of man under grace is the apostasy of the professing church...[[54]]


Scofield believed the Gospels were essentially for the Jews and therefore not relevant for the Church. In a footnote to Ephesians 3, for example, he claims, ‘In his [Paul’s] writings alone we find the doctrine, position, walk, and destiny of the Church.’[[55]] Similarly, in perpetuating the distinction between Israel and the Church, Scofield claimed, that Israel is the earthly wife of God and the Church is the heavenly bride of Christ.


That Israel is the wife of Jehovah (see vs. 16-23), now disowned but yet to be restored, is the clear teaching of the passages. This relationship is not to be confounded with that of the Church to Christ (John 3.29, refs.). In the mystery of the Divine tri-unity both are true. The N.T. speaks of the Church as a virgin espoused to one husband (2 Cor. 11.1,2); which could never be said of an adulterous wife, restored in grace. Israel is, then, to be the restored and forgiven wife of Jehovah, the Church the virgin wife of the Lamb (John 3.29; Rev. 19.6-8); Israel Jehovah's earthly wife (Hos. 2.23); the Church the Lamb's heavenly bride (Rev. 19.7)[[56]]


In many ways Scofield was representative of, but at the same time became a focus for, the growing prophetic and millennial fundamentalist movement in North America influenced by the Brethren. The views later popularised by Scofield, were shaped by a series of Bible and Prophetic Conferences held across North America beginning in 1868 which followed the pattern established by Darby and Irving at Albury and Powerscourt from the 1830's.


Both the method of 'Bible readings' and the topics of the conferences strongly suggest that the gatherings were a result of J. N. Darby's travels in the United States and the influence of the Plymouth Brethren.[[57]]

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology
 

zone

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In 1974, William E. Cox, a former dispensationalist and subsequent critic offered this appraisal Scofield’s abiding legacy.

Scofield’s footnotes and his systematized schemes of hermeneutics have been memorized by many as religiously as have verses of the Bible. It is not at all uncommon to hear devout men recite these footnotes prefaced by the words, ‘The Bible says...’ Many a pastor has lost all influence with members of his congregation and has been branded a liberal for no other reason than failure to concur with all the footnotes of Dr. Scofield. Even many ministers use the teachings of Scofield as tests of orthodoxy! [[59]]

Craig Blaising, professor of Systematic Theology at Dallas Theological Seminary, agrees.


The Scofield Reference Bible became the Bible of fundamentalism, and the theology of the notes approached confessional status in many Bible schools, institutes and seminaries established in the early decades of this century.[[60]]

In 1890 Scofield began his Comprehensive Bible Correspondence Course through which tens of thousands of students around the world were introduced to his dispensational teaching about a failing Church and a future Israel. Scofield directed the course until 1914 when it was taken over by the Moody Bible Institute. In the 1890's, during Scofield's pastorate in Dallas, he was also principal of the Southwestern School of the Bible. This was the forerunner to Dallas Theological Seminary, which was founded in 1924 by another of his students, Lewis Sperry Chafer, who became one of Scofield’s most influential exponents.


Chafer has, in the history of American Dispensationalism, a double distinction. First, he established and led Dispensationalism’s most scholarly institution through the formative years of its existence. Second, he produced the first full and definitive systematic theology of Dispensationalism. This massive eight-volume work is a full articulation of the standard Scofieldian variety of dispensational thought, constantly related to the Biblical texts and data on which it claims to rest. Its influence appears to have been great on all dispensationalist teachers since its first publication, though it is fading today.

All of Chafer’s work and career was openly and obviously in the Scofieldian tradition. A few years before his death, Chafer, faithful to his mentor to the last, was to say of his greatest academic achievement, ‘It goes on record that the Dallas Theological Seminary uses, recommends, and defends the Scofield Bible.’ The major line of dispensational orthodoxy is clear and unbroken from Darby to Scofield to Chafer to Dallas.[[61]]

It is perhaps therefore not surprising that the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago and Dallas Theological Seminary have since then continued to be the foremost apologists for Scofield's dispensational views, and Christian Zionism in particular.
 
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zone

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#5
6. The International Christian Embassy, Jerusalem
From its foundation in 1980 the charter of the ICEJ has been to ‘comfort’ Israel. This has been defined as encouraging and facilitating the restoration of the Jews to Eretz Israel although the geographical extent of greater Israel is not always made clear.


The embassy believes that God wants us to stimulate, encourage, and inspire Christians amongst the many nations concerning their role and task in the restoration of Israel. The Bible says that the destiny of nations, Christians, and even that of the church is linked to the way in which these groups respond to this restoration.[[89]]

Those who founded the ICEJ were drawn from Western evangelical, fundamentalist and charismatic circles. According to Don Wagner, virtually the entire ICEJ leadership are dispensationalists, who, like Darby, Scofield and Lindsey, believe that the restoration of the Jews to Israel and the contemporary State of Israel is the fulfilment of biblical prophecy.[
[90]] In 1985, Johann Luckoff, the director of ICEJ wrote,


The return to Zion from exile a second time (Isa. 11:11) is a living testimony to God’s faithfulness and his enduring covenant with the Jewish people.[[91]]

With an international staff of 50 and representatives in over 80 countries, the ICEJ has gained significant status within Jewish political circles for its lobbying of foreign governments on behalf of Israel. Based on its dispensational convictions, the ICEJ sponsors an annual Feast of Tabernacles celebration attended by around 5,000 Christian Zionists from over 70 nations. Every Israeli Prime Minister since 1980 has attended and addressed their celebration. They proudly record the testimonials of many Jewish political and religious leaders. For example, Yitzhak Rabin said:


Allow me to tell you how much I, and Israel, appreciate your [presence] here in Jerusalem, especially during these difficult days. Israel has experienced through her existence many difficulties. Therefore, whenever we see people that care, that are involved, and who show this by deeds, and by words - we appreciate this.[[92]]


ICEJ claim that their Feast of Tabernacle celebration is the largest single annual tourist event in Israel. In 1996, in rebutting criticism of their theological position, the ICEJ repudiated those who refused to acknowledge the central place of Israel within God’s continuing purposes:


While Gentile believers have been grafted into that household of faith which is of Abraham (the commonwealth of Israel), replacement theology within the Christian faith, which does not recognize the ongoing biblical purposes for Israel and the Jewish People, is doctrinal error.[[93]]
 

zone

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#6
6. The International Christian Embassy, Jerusalem cont...

The ICEJ have taken their religio-political hermeneutic somewhat further than most dispensationalists and effectively reinterpreted the Great Commission. In place of proclaiming the message of Jesus Christ which is according to Romans 1:16 and 2:9-10, ‘to the Jew first’, they have substituted a social gospel serving the expansionist political agenda of the modern state of Israel.


In the same sense that the first apostles were commissioned by the Lord to be his witnesses from Jerusalem to the uttermost parts of the earth, we also feel compelled to proclaim the word of Israel’s restoration, and the Christian’s response to it, to every country and in every place where there are believers.[[97]]


The ICEJ has repeatedly identified uncritically and unconditionally with the position of the right wing of the Likud party, using the Bible to defend Israel’s military settlement and colonisation of Syria’s Golan Heights and the Occupied Territories despite international criticism. The ICEJ has also remained implacably opposed to the aspirations of the Palestinians for political autonomy, a shared Jerusalem, or the right of return for refugees who have lost their property and land through war or confiscation.


Not surprisingly, the ICEJ is repudiated by the indigenous Christian Palestinian community, its theology regarded as nothing less than apostasy,[[98]] and “an anachronistic return to the Judaizing tendency the early church rejected at the first ecumenical council, recorded in Acts 15.”[[99]]

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology


 

zone

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#7
Like Hal Lindsey, other contemporary dispensationalist writers appear to compete with one another to present the most accurate and timely interpretation of contemporary events as they unfold. We close by noting five key writers in this vein.


Billy Graham's father-in-law, Nelson Bell, the editor of the prestigious and authoritative mouthpiece of conservative Evangelicalism, Christianity Today, appeared to express the sentiments of many American Evangelicals when, in an editorial in 1967 he wrote:


That for the first time in more than 2,000 years Jerusalem is now completely in the hands of the Jews gives a student of the Bible a thrill and a renewed faith in the accuracy and validity of the Bible.[[109]]


Charles Dyer, professor of Bible exposition at Dallas Theological Seminary, in his book, The Rise of Babylon, includes photographs allegedly showing Saddam Hussein’s reconstruction of Babylon to the same specifications and splendour as Nebuchadnezzar.[[110]] Dyer warns that this is evidence that Hussein plans to repeat Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Israel, the only Arab ever to have done so. 'The Middle East is the world's time bomb, and Babylon is the fuse that will ignite the events of the end times.'[[111]]

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology

~

HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE DECEIVED?

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 16:9
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 17:7
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

~

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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#8
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I sit a queen, and am no widow[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rev. 17:18
"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rev. 18:7-8
"How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. [8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rev. 11:8
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lament. 1:1
"How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people how is she become as a widow she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary..."
[/FONT]
 

zone

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#9
"Babylon" is called the "Great City"

Rev. 18:10
"Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."

Jerusalem is also called the "Great City"


Jeremiah 22:4-8
"For if ye do this thing indeed, then shall there enter in by the gates of this house kings sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, he, and his servants, and his people. [5] But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation. [6] For thus saith the Lord unto the king's house of Judah; Thou art Gilead unto me, and the head of Lebanon: yet surely I will make thee a wilderness, and cities which are not inhabited. [7] And I will prepare destroyers against thee, every one with his weapons: and they shall cut down thy choice cedars, and cast them into the fire. [8] And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the Lord done thus unto this great city?"
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#10
in her was found the blood of prophets

Rev. 17:5-6
"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. [6] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

Rev. 18:24
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."


Luke 11:47-51
"Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. [48] Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. [49] Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: [50] That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; [51] From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation."

Luke 13:31-34
"The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. [32] And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. [33] Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. [34] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

Matthew 23:29-36
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, [30] And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. [31] Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. [32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. [33] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? [34] Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: [35] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. [36] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. "

Matthew 24:34
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
 

zone

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#11
purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold

Rev. 17:4
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:"


Rev. 18:16
"And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!"


Jeremiah 4:30-31
"And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. [31] For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers."
 

zone

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#12
destroyed with fire

God promised blessings to the Jews if they obeyed, Deut 28:8, and seven curses if they disobeyed, verses 15 -20. God’s Covenant is effected by His Oath. The word "oath" is based on the word "seven." Thus, the number "seven" represents the Covenant. In Leviticus He threatens to punish the Jews with fire if they break His Covenant.

Leviticus 26:15-16
"And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: [16] I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it."

Leviticus 26:27-28
"And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; [28] Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins."

Ezekiel 16:2-3
"Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, [3] And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite."

Ezekiel 16:35
"Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord:"

Ezekiel 16:38
"And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy."

Ezekiel 16:41
"And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more."

Ezekiel 23:2-4
"Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother: [3] And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity. [4] And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah."

Ezekiel 23:17-19
"And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them. [18] So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister. [19] Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt."

Ezekiel 23:22-25
"Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side; [23] The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses. [24] And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments. [25] And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire."

Ezekiel 23:44-47
"Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.
[45] And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands. [46] For thus saith the Lord God; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled. [47] And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire."

Also see Lamentations 2:4, and 4:11 and Ezekiel 19:12, 21:2-3, 22:19-21

future "Babylon" is to be destroyed by fire

Rev. 18:8
"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."

Rev. 18:17
"For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off..."

Jerusalem was a center for commercial trade, but true to prophecy it was completely destroyed by fire in 70 AD, whereas, Rome was only partially burned by Nero.
The burning of Jerusalem by fire also had theological significance.
The City of Jerusalem is often referred to as a daughter.

Lament. 2:15-18
"All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? [16] All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it. [17] The Lord hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries. [18] Their heart cried unto the Lord, O wall of the daughter of Zion, let tears run down like a river day and night: give thyself no rest; let not the apple of thine eye cease."

Unfaithfulness to God is frequently compared to as sexual immorality.

The penalty for fornication by the daughter of the priest called for a special punishment. She was to be burned to death.

Leviticus 21:9
"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

So, when Jerusalem was offered the opportunity to accept Christ, but instead rejected Him, she is referred to as the "Whore of Babylon" who is subsequently to be burned to death.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#13
The Harlot

Just as "Babylon" is referred to as a whore, a harlot, Jerusalem is also called a harlot.

Rev. 17:1
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:"

Ezekiel 16:1-3
"Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, [2] Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, [3] And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite."

Ezekiel 16:26
"Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger."


Jeremiah 2:1-2
"Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [2] Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown."

Jeremiah 2:17-20
"Hast thou not procured this unto thyself, in that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, when he led thee by the way? [18] And now what hast thou to do in the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Sihor? or what hast thou to do in the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river? [19] Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts. [20] For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot."

Isaiah 1:1
"The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."

Isaiah 1:21
"How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers."

Jeremiah 3:1-2
"They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord. [2] Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness."

Jeremiah 3:6-8
"The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. [7] And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. [8] And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."

Jeremiah 5:1
"Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it."

Jeremiah 5:5-7
"I will get me unto the great men, and will speak unto them; for they have known the way of the Lord, and the judgment of their God: but these have altogether broken the yoke, and burst the bonds. [6] Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities: every one that goeth out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their transgressions are many, and their backslidings are increased.
[7] How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses."

Ezekiel 23:1-5
"The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, [2] Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother: [3] And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity. [4] And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah. [5] And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours..."

Ezekiel 23:11
"And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms."

Ezekiel 23:17-19
"And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them. [18] So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister. [19] Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt."
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#14
My People

Rev. 18:4
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."


God said, "Come out of her, my people …"

Who does "my people" refer to and where are they at ? These are important questions. The term "my people" is the key.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

The term 'My People' is clearly a covenant language and is a reference to people who were supposed to be in a covenant relationship with God. This becomes even more evident when we examine just what it means to be in a covenant. A covenant is very different from a contract. Thus, a covenant is as different from a contract as marriage is different from prostitution. In a contract, two people exchange goods and services - this becomes yours and that becomes mine, or 'I will do this for you and you will do that for me.' However, as anyone knows contracts are made and broken.


A covenant is an exchange of persons. "I will become yours and you will become mine."

Ezekiel 37:26-27
"Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. [27] My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."


Hebrews 13:12-14
"Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. [14] For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come."


The Great Whore
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#15
Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology

A History of Dispensational Approaches
By Rev. Steven Sizer

12/20/2000 "ICH" Dispensationalism is one of the most influential theological systems within the universal church today. Largely unrecognised and subliminal, it has increasingly shaped the presuppositions of fundamentalist, evangelical, Pentecostal and charismatic thinking concerning Israel and Palestine over the past one hundred and fifty years.

John Nelson Darby is regarded as the father of dispensationalism and its prodigy, Christian Zionism. It was Cyrus. I. Scofield and D. L. Moody, however, who brought Darby’s sectarian theology into mainstream evangelical circles. R. C. Sproul concedes that dispensationalism is now ‘...a theological system that in all probability is the majority report among current American evangelicals.’[[1]]

Most of the early popular American radio preachers such as Donald Grey Barnhouse, Charles E. Fuller, and M. R. DeHaan were dispensationalists. Today, virtually all the 'televangelists' such as Jerry Falwell, Jim Bakker, Paul Crouch, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart and Billy Graham are also dispensationalists.

Other leading dispensationalist writers include Charles Ryrie, Dwight Pentecost, John Walvoord, Eric Sauer, Charles Dyer, Tim LaHaye, Grant Jeffrey and Hal Lindsey. Notable political proponents include Jimmie Carter and Ronald Reagan. Probably the most significant Christian organisations to espouse dispensationalism have been the Moody Bible Institute, Dallas Theological Seminary and the International Christian Embassy, Jerusalem.

2. Dispensationalism Defined
The basic text upon which dispensationalism is based is the Authorised translation of 2 Timothy 2:15, where the Apostle Paul calls upon Timothy to ‘... rightly divide the word of truth.’ Scofield took this verse as the title for his first book which is a defence of this way of ‘dividing’ Scripture into discrete dispensations.[[2]] In its classical form, Charles Ryrie insists the sine qua non of Dispensationalism to be:

1. A dispensationalist keeps Israel and the Church distinct...
2. This distinction between Israel and the church is born out of a system of hermeneutics that is usually called literal interpretation...
3. A third aspect... concerns the underlying purpose of God in the world... namely, the glory of God... To the normative dispensationalist, the soteriological, or saving, program of God is not the only program but one of the means God is using in the total program of glorifying Himself.[[3]]

2.1 The Seven Dispensations
Following Darby and Scofield, dispensationalists claim to find in Scripture evidence of seven distinct dispensations during which humanity has been tested in respect of specific revelation as to the will of God. In each dispensation, including the present sixth dispensation of the Church, humanity has failed the test. These dispensations began with creation and will culminate in an exclusive Jewish kingdom on earth. Charles Ryrie offers the clearest outline of dispensationalism.[[4]]

~ click on link to see dispensational chart

These dispensations are seen by proponents as literally 'providing us with a chronological map to guide us'[[5]] toward the seventh and final dispensation which will be inaugurated by the imminent return of Jesus Christ and the climax to world history.

2.2 A Distinction Between Israel and the Church
Dispensationalists believe that God has two separate but parallel means of working - one through the Church, the other through Israel (the former being a parenthesis to the latter).[[6]] Thus there is, and always will remain, a distinction, 'between Israel, the Gentiles and the Church.'[[7]] Darby was not the first to insist on a radical distinction between Israel and the Church.

Marcion stressed the radical nature of Christianity vis-a-vis Judaism. In his theology there existed a total discontinuity between the OT and the NT, between Israel and the church, and even between the god of the OT and the Father of Jesus.[[8]]


It was, however, Darby who first insisted that: ‘The Jewish nation is never to enter the Church.’[[9]] Scofield developed this idea further:


Comparing then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, we find that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct and future destiny, all is contrast.[[10]]

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary and a student of Scofield's, elaborated on this dichotomy between Israel and the church:


The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.[[11]]

For Chafer, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’[[12]] that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology

Friends, Dispensationalism is a great sin against God and His Word, the Holy Scriptures; it's a great heresy that is anti-semitic at heart, because it preaches Jews (Israel) don't need the love of Jesus Christ (vs. John 3:16). John 3:16, Jesus Christ preaches, that His love is for the whole world, and the whole world includes Jews, His beloved people, as well as Gentiles, who are also His beloved people. God loves Jews and Gentiles equally, and does not treat them any different. In Christ "there is no Jew nor Gentile"... "all are one in Christ Jesus." Salvation is the same way for all: by Christ's shed blood on the cross, by the power of His resurrection, through faith in Him (John 3:16) for the remission (forgiveness) of sins. Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#16
Friends, Dispensationalism is a great sin against God and His Word, the Holy Scriptures; it's a great heresy that is anti-semitic at heart, because it preaches Jews (Israel) don't need the love of Jesus Christ (vs. John 3:16). John 3:16, Jesus Christ preaches, that His love is for the whole world, and the whole world includes Jews, His beloved people, as well as Gentiles, who are also His beloved people. God loves Jews and Gentiles equally, and does not treat them any different. In Christ "there is no Jew nor Gentile"... "all are one in Christ Jesus." Salvation is the same way for all: by Christ's shed blood on the cross, by the power of His resurrection, through faith in Him (John 3:16) for the remission (forgiveness) of sins. Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
hey Scott.
it preaches another gospel, therefore another jesus.
 
D

dmdave17

Guest
#17
With the admission that I am not a biblical scholar, I would tend to come down on Scott's side of this discussion. Otherwise, why would Jesus have disparaged the Jews who refused to believe so much throughout his ministry? For example, "The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered, 'I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe...'" (John 10:23-26)

Or "You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’" (Matthew 15:7-9)

Therefore, it seems to me that He was doing everything He could to get the Jews to accept Him. I believe that that implies they needed Him for salvation.
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#18
Zone,

You have no idea what you are doing and what you are stirring up, but you will continue and someday it is going to backfire on you. You are so blinded by your own zeal and convictions and so far away from the truth, your not even close and there are others that view this site that have said nothing and let you go on in your understanding of end time events. You have been fooled by the devil, who you think and presume has been bound up. You have confused so many passages of scripture and applied them in ways that distort the truth, the nature of God, God's elect and the purpose of the church in this dispensation of the gospel of grace.

You are totally on your own in this and you separate the brethren with every word you post. Some are being patient and nice to you and are trying to convince you of your error, but you will turn on them in time as you turned on me and others. You will accuse them of being part of Babylon and and being blasphemers of the the finished work of Christ that will lead to accusing them of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You are wrong in this and you need to turn yourself away from it.

The progressive thinking that you are engaged in has nothing to do with the grace of God nor is our Lord magnified in any of it. You need to examine yourself and see what you are doing. It is one thing to challenge people with truth but another to give them something that has been spiritualized because of what you have been through in the past when you were wounded by those that you looked upon for guidance. You have endeavored in your zeal for the truth but have gotten off and into an error that is taking vengence subjectively on those that you were hurt by and objectively on those that believe contrary to what you have put such a premium upon. Please, don't go any further in this and don't give up on the one who has cleansed you from all your sins and is going to take you unto Himself as part of the bride of Christ.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#19
Therefore, it seems to me that He was doing everything He could to get the Jews to accept Him. I believe that that implies they needed Him for salvation.
so simple dave. and so obvious.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#20
You are so blinded by your own zeal and convictions and so far away from the truth, your not even close.
one of us is dead wrong.

and there are others that view this site that have said nothing and let you go on in your understanding of end time events..
if they've said nothing, how do you know what they think?
are you a spokesman for people?

i think people can speak for themselves.

as i said, regarding eschatology one of us is completely wrong.

You have been fooled by the devil, who you think and presume has been bound up...
is it me that's been fooled?

i can't help it if you are holding to dispensational theology. there's more than enough information available to all of us to see where it came from, and to search the Scriptures (without Scofield's footnotes) to see if these things are so. you do as you wish, Red...that's your own business.

You have confused so many passages of scripture and applied them in ways that distort the truth, the nature of God, God's elect and the purpose of the church in this dispensation of the gospel of grace.
what can i say to a pretribulation rapture/hyper-dispensational theologian? you can think for yourself and decide if it's even remotely possible you are the one deceived.

You are totally on your own in this and you separate the brethren with every word you post.
dispensationalism and other strange doctrines have divided the brethren.

i'm not totally alone in this: read The Reformers.

Some are being patient and nice to you and are trying to convince you of your error, but you will turn on them in time as you turned on me and others..
first, who are you speaking for?

second: turn on you? puleez.

our discussions have been in an open forum, i don't know what you're on about.

You will accuse them of being part of Babylon and and being blasphemers of the the finished work of Christ..
Mystery Babylon is filled with blasphemy. haven't you read about it?

The Lord's Work is Finished. i can't help it if you refuse to accept that.

that will lead to accusing them of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You are wrong in this and you need to turn yourself away from it. .
if you're going to psychoanalyze me and make a report predicting what i'll do, please get this right: (everybody should know what the unpardonable sin is by now)....what i said was, do we want to cooperate with those who commit the unpardonable sin, okay? did you know its being committed at this moment? do you care?

The progressive thinking that you are engaged in has nothing to do with the grace of God nor is our Lord magnified in any of it. You need to examine yourself and see what you are doing..
what i'm doing is refusing to swallow the dispensational bait.

It is one thing to challenge people with truth but another to give them something that has been spiritualized because of what you have been through in the past when you were wounded by those that you looked upon for guidance...
LOL! what? maybe you have me mixed up with someone else, Red.

"what you have been through in the past when you were wounded by those that you looked upon for guidance" << you're making this up!!! outrageous!

You have endeavored in your zeal for the truth but have gotten off and into an error that is taking vengence subjectively on those that you were hurt by and objectively on those that believe contrary to what you have put such a premium upon. Please, don't go any further in this and don't give up on the one who has cleansed you from all your sins and is going to take you unto Himself as part of the bride of Christ.
i'm sorry my friend, i've tested dispensationalism and found it to be utterly false and contrived. so your determination that i'm in error doesn't really mean much.

i have no clue what you are referring to above - you're making this up and that's rather presumptuous of you. clever manipulation of those reading it though. hmmm.....

as for not going any further...any further on WHAT? i'm fully entitled to my position and to express it (anyway it's not my own position: its the Amillennial Reformers i've been reading - nothing new).

don't worry about me giving up on Jesus, nor He on me....i have work to do before i die or before He comes in Judgment at the Second Advent.

take care Red33
 
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