Theistic Evolution (God + Evolution)

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S

Searching4somethinglost

Guest
#1
#1
A marriage of two complete opposites set for disaster. Yet for many it seems totally acceptable.

This is not about scientific evidence or facts, this is based on what I believe to be basic fundamentals of Christian faith.

1. God is love! If God truly is love, then he would be totally against even thinking about using evolution in creation. Why? Because one of evolution's most important principle is natural selection. How does this conflict with God? DEATH! Natural selection is just another synonym for it. If God did use evolution he would be a God of death not love.

2. God creates with purpose. Evolution has no purpose, no meaning, no direction, and no goal.

3. Jesus died for our salvation. As i stated in #1 God + evolution = death, death is the product of sin. In a nutshell means Jesus dying was meaningless and most likely not son the of God. Which points to God being one of total submission.

4. Genesis is historical! Unlike books like revelations, Genesis clearly states how the world came to be and its early history. to assume Genesis 1 is symbolic is just plain ignorance.

Those who sit upon fences often loose their balance.
 
S

Slepsog4

Guest
#2
#2
To suggest that God used evolution is to call Him a liar. He said what he did and how long He chose to take.
Jesus confirmed the creation at the beginning when He referenced the origin of marriage.
 
S

Searching4somethinglost

Guest
#3
#3
Slepsog4 said:
To suggest that God used evolution is to call Him a liar. He said what he did and how long He chose to take.
Jesus confirmed the creation at the beginning when He referenced the origin of marriage.
Click to expand...
Amen!

(space needed to post)
 
Jaynee

Jaynee

Banned
#4
Jan 16, 2011
85
0
0
#4
Searching4somethinglost said:
A marriage of two complete opposites set for disaster. Yet for many it seems totally acceptable.

This is not about scientific evidence or facts, this is based on what I believe to be basic fundamentals of Christian faith.

1. God is love! If God truly is love, then he would be totally against even thinking about using evolution in creation. Why? Because one of evolution's most important principle is natural selection. How does this conflict with God? DEATH! Natural selection is just another synonym for it. If God did use evolution he would be a God of death not love.
Click to expand...
Hi Searching4somethinglost,

Yes, I most certainly agree with your first assertion that "God is love". Most assuredly. However, the rest of your assertions are scripturally unascertainable and are merely your own opinions, unsupported by either fact or logic. (Death a synonym for Natural Selection?) Sorry, Searching4somethinglost, but aside from your initial three words, your Section One just doesn't do it for me. But peace and blessings to you, anyhow.

- Jaynee
 
S

Searching4somethinglost

Guest
#5
#5
natural selection is death, in order for it to work one must die out for one to prevail stronger.
 
M

Mark777

Guest
#6
#6
"For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." 1 Cor 15:21-22.

While there is much to be said from Scripture agianst theistic evolution, what every Christian must realise is that without an historical first Adam, whose sin brought death to all mankind, there would be no requirement for our Lord to have suffered the death of the cross to purchase our redemption. No Adam, no Jesus, no Christianity.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#7
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#7
There is nothing in the bible that limits God as far as time. God did indeed create the universe with purpose. Darwinian evolution is a myth. However, to say that the earth was created in seven literal days completely ignores geologic evidence. I believe that the "days" recorded in Genesis represents "logical periods or steps" in time. Authors such as Moses, and O.T. audiences would not have understood "millions of years". It would be quite logical for Moses to anthropomorphize these periods into "days" which would be more readily understood. This is done all of the time in the O.T. when the terms "hand of God", and the "face of God" are used. God is a spirit and does not have hands or a face, yet these terms are used so that people can more easily understand theological concepts.

The age-day theory is the closest that conforms well with the biblical record, as well as the geologic record. This corresponds with a term called "progressive creationism", in which God created the earth in a series of steps, in which the earth was prepared for human existence. Life was also created in this way, with the first of each of the "kinds" (Hebrew "min") being created (sometimes Heb. "bara", ex nihilo, such as the sea creatures, and sometimes "asah" made from preexisting created materials), with the following members of that "kind" evolving (microevolution) to fit environmental conditions in different parts of the earth. Man was created "bara" spiritually, and then breathed by God into a body made "asah" from earth materials. The "hominids" and other creatures designated as "homo" in the taxonomy existing before "homo sapiens" are not human, but are animals only.

To discount geologic evidence as nonexistent, when it is, is bad theology, and creates unnecessary contention between the bible record and science.
 
C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
#8
#8
yeah also people try to add evolution to the bible......you cannot try to fit it in..look at this verse

Genesis 1:24-26
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind:

now this shows above that the animals were made and can produce only their own kind, so what is this saying?.....They cannot produce something different. No evolution here.

26 and God saw that it was good.And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

here we see that we are after the Image of God, we are suppose to be after His kind....we are not gods but we are made in the Image of God.

aleichem shalom
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#9
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#9
Crazy4GODword said:
yeah also people try to add evolution to the bible......you cannot try to fit it in..look at this verse

Genesis 1:24-26
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind:

now this shows above that the animals were made and can produce only their own kind, so what is this saying?.....They cannot produce something different. No evolution here.

26 and God saw that it was good.And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

here we see that we are after the Image of God, we are suppose to be after His kind....we are not gods but we are made in the Image of God.

aleichem shalom
Click to expand...
You are correct, there is no evolution "between" kinds. However, there is microevolution "within" the kinds. This is clearly demonstrated in the number and variety of dogs that are available, many of which were bred by humans. Did God create all 9700 species of birds (Aves), or did He create one "kind" and allow them to adapt to different environmental conditions? There would have been a lot of birds on the ark if all of them were created separately. How did the different races come about? There was only one Adam. To ignore microevolution "within" the kinds would require one to "bury their head in the sand" to overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
 
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C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
#10
#10
superdave5221 said:
You are correct, there is no evolution "between" kinds. However, there is microevolution "within" the kinds. This is clearly demonstrated in the number and variety of dogs that are available, many of which were bred by humans. Did God create all 9700 species of birds (Aves), or did He create one "kind" and allow them to adapt to different environmental conditions? How did the different races come about? There was only one Adam. To ignore microevolution "within" the kinds would require one to "bury their head in the sand" to overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Click to expand...
that was not exactly what i was saying....not different variety but evolution is what i was getting to....God did say do not mix animals or mate animals but i was talking about evolutionary change in a animal naturally not man made.
 
M

Mark777

Guest
#11
#11
superdave5221 said:
There is nothing in the bible that limits God as far as time. God did indeed create the universe with purpose. Darwinian evolution is a myth. However, to say that the earth was created in seven literal days completely ignores geologic evidence. I believe that the "days" recorded in Genesis represents "logical periods or steps" in time. Authors such as Moses, and O.T. audiences would not have understood "millions of years". It would be quite logical for Moses to anthropomorphize these periods into "days" which would be more readily understood. This is done all of the time in the O.T. when the terms "hand of God", and the "face of God" are used. God is a spirit and does not have hands or a face, yet these terms are used so that people can more easily understand theological concepts.

The age-day theory is the closest that conforms well with the biblical record, as well as the geologic record. This corresponds with a term called "progressive creationism", in which God created the earth in a series of steps, in which the earth was prepared for human existence. Life was also created in this way, with the first of each of the "kinds" (Hebrew "min") being created (sometimes Heb. "bara", ex nihilo, such as the sea creatures, and sometimes "asah" made from preexisting created materials), with the following members of that "kind" evolving (microevolution) to fit environmental conditions in different parts of the earth. Man was created "bara" spiritually, and then breathed by God into a body made "asah" from earth materials. The "hominids" and other creatures designated as "homo" in the taxonomy existing before "homo sapiens" are not human, but are animals only.

To discount geologic evidence as nonexistent, when it is, is bad theology, and creates unnecessary contention between the bible record and science.
Click to expand...
The geological evidence is often interpreted according to pre-existing biases. There is certainly no need for millions of years. Cases such as fossilized trees that are upright through laters that an evolutionary geologist would say took millions of years to be deposited demonstrate that these millions of years simply do not exist. For more information, check out Creationontheweb.com
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#12
#12
Searching4somethinglost said:
A marriage of two complete opposites set for disaster. Yet for many it seems totally acceptable.

This is not about scientific evidence or facts, this is based on what I believe to be basic fundamentals of Christian faith.

1. God is love! If God truly is love, then he would be totally against even thinking about using evolution in creation. Why? Because one of evolution's most important principle is natural selection. How does this conflict with God? DEATH! Natural selection is just another synonym for it. If God did use evolution he would be a God of death not love.

2. God creates with purpose. Evolution has no purpose, no meaning, no direction, and no goal.

3. Jesus died for our salvation. As i stated in #1 God + evolution = death, death is the product of sin. In a nutshell means Jesus dying was meaningless and most likely not son the of God. Which points to God being one of total submission.

4. Genesis is historical! Unlike books like revelations, Genesis clearly states how the world came to be and its early history. to assume Genesis 1 is symbolic is just plain ignorance.

Those who sit upon fences often loose their balance.
Click to expand...
you like many christian misunderstand what evolution is. are you saying God can't change His creation using the tools of natural selection? the problem i have with the theory is that they take God out of the equation and that is wrong. I'm researching the concept of Divine design. i will read the rest of the post and post my finding later. I believe the Bible is the truth but currently the conversation engaged by christian believers show ignorance of the basic precepts of science and thus largely ignored by the scientific community and world as a whole on the topic of creation. I am in prayer and research to see how and why this is occurring.

God Your are an awesome God!

YouTube - Awesome God - Rich Mullins w/ Lyrics
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#13
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#13
Mark777 said:
The geological evidence is often interpreted according to pre-existing biases. There is certainly no need for millions of years. Cases such as fossilized trees that are upright through laters that an evolutionary geologist would say took millions of years to be deposited demonstrate that these millions of years simply do not exist. For more information, check out Creationontheweb.com
Click to expand...

OK. Explain to me how the Grand Canyon formed in 10,000 years. This should be interesting.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#14
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#14
AnandaHya said:
you like many christian misunderstand what evolution is. are you saying God can't change His creation using the tools of natural selection? the problem i have with the theory is that they take God out of the equation and that is wrong. I'm researching the concept of Divine design. i will read the rest of the post and post my finding later. I believe the Bible is the truth but currently the conversation engaged by christian believers show ignorance of the basic precepts of science and thus largely ignored by the scientific community and world as a whole on the topic of creation. I am in prayer and research to see how and why this is occurring.

God Your are an awesome God!

YouTube - Awesome God - Rich Mullins w/ Lyrics
Click to expand...
Hell Ananda, if you are exploring intelligent design, there is a great video out there called "The Case For Creation", by Lee Strobel. It is available in most Christian bookstores, and from Lee's website leestrobel.com. There was an interesting theory presented by Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay W. Richards, (a philosopher at Discovery Institute), in which they believe that God actually designed the universe in a way in which humans can investigate and explore His design. For example, the atmosphere that we breathe is transparent, allowing us a view into the cosmos. Our solar system is located in a spot in the Milky Way galaxy that is relatively free of dense star structures, allowing us an unencumbered view of the universe. The relative distances from Earth, and size of the sun and moon allows for perfect solar eclipses, allowing us to confirm Einstein's theory of relativity, and to confirm the properties of light. It didn't have to be that way, but it is. They believe, as do I, that God wants us to explore our surroundings through scientific research, for by doing so, we come to know Him better.

By the way, Guillermo Gonzalez was a noted astrophysicist at Iowa State university until 2008. According to a wikipedia article on Gonzalez, in 2006, Hector Avalos, a professor of religious studies, and noted atheist, coauthored a statement at the university opposing any attempts to present intelligent design as a scientific endeavor. 400 professors signed a total of three petitions. Two years later, Gonzalez was denied tenure at the university. Was Gonzalez denied tenure because of his Christian beliefs? I don't know. But it sure seems suspicious.
 
L

loveasaweapon

Guest
#15
#15
Strongly recommended reading on this subject:

In Six Days: Why 50 Scientists Choose to Believe in Creation, Edited by Dr. John Ashton

Here's a link to where you can actually read the whole book online, although I would personally recommend getting a hard copy.

In Six Days - Index

Each chapter in the book is by a different scientist, coming from all different scientific fields, and they each explain why they, according to science, believe in a literal six day creation.

God bless
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#16
#16
Slepsog4 said:
To suggest that God used evolution is to call Him a liar. He said what he did and how long He chose to take.
Jesus confirmed the creation at the beginning when He referenced the origin of marriage.
Click to expand...
Genesis describe creation before sin, natural selection is how God makes creatures adapt in a world with sin.


Ok to address ths:


Evolution has no purpose, no meaning, no direction, and no goal. (not true: survival in this world that is changing is the goal and purpose, and God is the director)

3. Jesus died for our salvation. As i stated in #1 God + evolution = death (not true, sin = death, God has nothing to do with death except as giving it as a punishment to sin, natural selection is based on adaptation which is based on God's grace that animals and people don't die due to climate changes, polution, etc), death is the product of sin. In a nutshell means Jesus dying was meaningless and most likely not son the of God WHAT??? how did you reach that conclusion????. Which points to God being one of total submission.

Jesus came to take away our sins, not our minds. think for a minute and research before speaking.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#17
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#17
superdave5221 said:
Hell Ananda, if you are exploring intelligent design, there is a great video out there called "The Case For Creation", by Lee Strobel. It is available in most Christian bookstores, and from Lee's website leestrobel.com. There was an interesting theory presented by Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay W. Richards, (a philosopher at Discovery Institute), in which they believe that God actually designed the universe in a way in which humans can investigate and explore His design. For example, the atmosphere that we breathe is transparent, allowing us a view into the cosmos. Our solar system is located in a spot in the Milky Way galaxy that is relatively free of dense star structures, allowing us an unencumbered view of the universe. The relative distances from Earth, and size of the sun and moon allows for perfect solar eclipses, allowing us to confirm Einstein's theory of relativity, and to confirm the properties of light. It didn't have to be that way, but it is. They believe, as do I, that God wants us to explore our surroundings through scientific research, for by doing so, we come to know Him better.

By the way, Guillermo Gonzalez was a noted astrophysicist at Iowa State university until 2008. According to a wikipedia article on Gonzalez, in 2006, Hector Avalos, a professor of religious studies, and noted atheist, coauthored a statement at the university opposing any attempts to present intelligent design as a scientific endeavor. 400 professors signed a total of three petitions. Two years later, Gonzalez was denied tenure at the university. Was Gonzalez denied tenure because of his Christian beliefs? I don't know. But it sure seems suspicious.
Click to expand...
oops somehow I lost the "o" in hello, sorry!
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#18
#18
superdave5221 said:
Hell Ananda, if you are exploring intelligent design, there is a great video out there called "The Case For Creation", by Lee Strobel. It is available in most Christian bookstores, and from Lee's website leestrobel.com. There was an interesting theory presented by Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay W. Richards, (a philosopher at Discovery Institute), in which they believe that God actually designed the universe in a way in which humans can investigate and explore His design. For example, the atmosphere that we breathe is transparent, allowing us a view into the cosmos. Our solar system is located in a spot in the Milky Way galaxy that is relatively free of dense star structures, allowing us an unencumbered view of the universe. The relative distances from Earth, and size of the sun and moon allows for perfect solar eclipses, allowing us to confirm Einstein's theory of relativity, and to confirm the properties of light. It didn't have to be that way, but it is. They believe, as do I, that God wants us to explore our surroundings through scientific research, for by doing so, we come to know Him better.

By the way, Guillermo Gonzalez was a noted astrophysicist at Iowa State university until 2008. According to a wikipedia article on Gonzalez, in 2006, Hector Avalos, a professor of religious studies, and noted atheist, coauthored a statement at the university opposing any attempts to present intelligent design as a scientific endeavor. 400 professors signed a total of three petitions. Two years later, Gonzalez was denied tenure at the university. Was Gonzalez denied tenure because of his Christian beliefs? I don't know. But it sure seems suspicious.
Click to expand...

thanks I actually taught a class at UNCG where our senior Biology class read articles and discussed Intelligent design versus evolution. I had fun and put the Biology teacher on the Divine design team lol and he had a t-shirt with it on. unfortunately most didn't do their research and the debate fell short. I will look into the authors you pointed out. again thanks, from a future high school science teacher.

PS watch you language we have kids on this site.
 
W

wolfywolfs

Guest
#19
#19
superdave5221 said:
You are correct, there is no evolution "between" kinds. However, there is microevolution "within" the kinds. This is clearly demonstrated in the number and variety of dogs that are available, many of which were bred by humans. Did God create all 9700 species of birds (Aves), or did He create one "kind" and allow them to adapt to different environmental conditions? There would have been a lot of birds on the ark if all of them were created separately. How did the different races come about? There was only one Adam. To ignore microevolution "within" the kinds would require one to "bury their head in the sand" to overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Click to expand...
isnt there like a bird who use cars to break open there nuts on zebra crossing so they can eat and survive if god made those birds like that in the begging then surly they should have died from starvation cos there were no cars in jesus times
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#20
#20
loveasaweapon said:
Strongly recommended reading on this subject:

In Six Days: Why 50 Scientists Choose to Believe in Creation, Edited by Dr. John Ashton

Here's a link to where you can actually read the whole book online, although I would personally recommend getting a hard copy.

In Six Days - Index

Each chapter in the book is by a different scientist, coming from all different scientific fields, and they each explain why they, according to science, believe in a literal six day creation.

God bless
Click to expand...
wow thanks that will take me a while to read it all but I'll post my thoughts when I finish, again thanks.
 
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