A simple question from a simple man ......

[unclefester]

Did the thief on the cross really enter paradise with Jesus when Christ told him he would ? Thought I'd ask given the fact that I'm speculating that he didn't understand the difference between the "Oneness and the Trinity" doctrines .....and probably didn't give either any thought while he was hanging on his cross. Seems that salvation is dependent upon which doctrine one believes, no ? Or at least one could easily come to that conclusion given what is so vehemently being argued here this past while. I know ...... it is my option to ignore the threads and accusations being thrown back and forth. But before I do, I'll ask one more question. Which of these two doctrines best prepares me to become as a little child that Christ spoke of in regards to becoming fit for the kingdom ? Not sure that I could say either of them appear to fit His criteria at the moment given the banter between the combatants. Schucks.....forget I even asked

 

[Crazy4GODword]

I am not going to shove my belief down anyone, but i believe the Trinity. Trinity mean the unity of the Father, Son and HS. Christ is God in my view because how can the unblemished lamb be sinless if He is just a man....didn't all men sin....so that would mean Jesus wasn't pure to die on the cross if He did sin. also He had no human father but the HS.

Romans 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

And the cross, well Jesus i doubt didn't lie, but that is something between the man and God my friend...God bless and take care

 

[trust_in_the_name]

Did the thief on the cross really enter paradise with Jesus when Christ told him he would ? Thought I'd ask given the fact that I'm speculating that he didn't understand the difference between the "Oneness and the Trinity" doctrines .....and probably didn't give either any thought while he was hanging on his cross. Seems that salvation is dependent upon which doctrine one believes, no ? Or at least one could easily come to that conclusion given what is so vehemently being argued here this past while. I know ...... it is my option to ignore the threads and accusations being thrown back and forth. But before I do, I'll ask one more question. Which of these two doctrines best prepares me to become as a little child that Christ spoke of in regards to becoming fit for the kingdom ? Not sure that I could say either of them appear to fit His criteria at the moment given the banter between the combatants. Schucks.....forget I even asked

9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)

Believing the scriptures is enough. Complete understanding is not instantaneous. The thief believed Jesus, therefore he was saved. On the other hand, if we deny the scriptures, we are destitute of truth (1 Timothy 6:3-5).

3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:3)

 

[Crazy4GODword]

I am not going to shove my belief down anyone, but i believe the Trinity. Trinity mean the unity of the Father, Son and HS. Christ is God in my view because how can the unblemished lamb be sinless if He is just a man....didn't all men sin....so that would mean Jesus wasn't pure to die on the cross if He did sin. also He had no human father but the HS.

Romans 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

And the cross, well Jesus i doubt didn't lie, but that is something between the man and God my friend...God bless and take care

sorry i meant Jesus didn't lie

 

[Consumed]

Did the thief on the cross really enter paradise with Jesus when Christ told him he would ? Thought I'd ask given the fact that I'm speculating that he didn't understand the difference between the "Oneness and the Trinity" doctrines .....and probably didn't give either any thought while he was hanging on his cross. Seems that salvation is dependent upon which doctrine one believes, no ? Or at least one could easily come to that conclusion given what is so vehemently being argued here this past while. I know ...... it is my option to ignore the threads and accusations being thrown back and forth. But before I do, I'll ask one more question. Which of these two doctrines best prepares me to become as a little child that Christ spoke of in regards to becoming fit for the kingdom ? Not sure that I could say either of them appear to fit His criteria at the moment given the banter between the combatants. Schucks.....forget I even asked

whenever the focus is on just knowledge of theology and not Jesus, what do you expect but contention, well it is written that many profess with their mouths yet are far from His heart. Why? In cases like this at times theology and whos right can seem more important than who it really is all about - Jesus. be great to read a thread where two disagreed, prayed for and with each other and conduct themselves in a humble, loving way then maybe they would find common ground, calvary

 

[Crazy4GODword]

whenever the focus is on just knowledge of theology and not Jesus, what do you expect but contention, well it is written that many profess with their mouths yet are far from His heart. Why? In cases like this at times theology and whos right can seem more important than who it really is all about - Jesus. be great to read a thread where two disagreed, prayed for and with each other and conduct themselves in a humble, loving way then maybe they would find common ground, calvary

yeah apologetics are dumb...people do it here to bugg people

 

[MaggieMye]

Thought I'd ask given the fact that I'm speculating that he didn't understand the difference between the "Oneness and the Trinity" doctrines that wasn't even an issue at that point in time. He believe that Jesus was the Christ and the Son of God, the Messiah. That was all that was necessary.

Maggie

 

[trust_in_the_name]

yeah apologetics are dumb...people do it here to bugg people

Apologetics is actually defense of the faith against exterior points of view (such as atheism or Mormonism).

 

[Crazy4GODword]

there is no breaking through to athiesm in less they listen of course....apologetics are reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

there is no breaking through to athiesm in less they listen of course....apologetics are reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine.

Yes, same thing.

 

[Consumed]

pauls apologetic - his testimony, read acts

 

[unclefester]

...... that wasn't even an issue at that point in time. He believe that Jesus was the Christ and the Son of God, the Messiah. That was all that was necessary.

Maggie

I'm confident that this hasn't changed. God bless Maggie

 

[unclefester]

whenever the focus is on just knowledge of theology and not Jesus, what do you expect but contention, well it is written that many profess with their mouths yet are far from His heart. Why? In cases like this at times theology and whos right can seem more important than who it really is all about - Jesus. be great to read a thread where two disagreed, prayed for and with each other and conduct themselves in a humble, loving way then maybe they would find common ground, calvary

Much agreed. It would appear that attempts are being made to discern that which only God is capable of. To each his own. Doesn't make for a very good testimony though.

 

[unclefester]

9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)

Believing the scriptures is enough. Complete understanding is not instantaneous. The thief believed Jesus, therefore he was saved. On the other hand, if we deny the scriptures, we are destitute of truth (1 Timothy 6:3-5).

3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:3)

Who is denying the scriptures when they confess with their mouth and believe in their heart that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the living Son of God ?

 

[journey41]

[

quote=unclefester;411321]Did the thief on the cross really enter paradise with Jesus when Christ told him he would ?

Did Jesus die that day? Was he not dead? Thats what the scriptures say, he really died and rose the third day. So logic tells us that Jesus didn't even go to paradise that day. So what was he talking about? It goes deeper my friend. When we die, we are really dead. Not hanging around some place. Not in heaven, and not burning in hell. Just dead. In the grave.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Eccles 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred and their envy, is now perished, neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Does this give you an idea what happens when we die? Everything just stops...

This is what happened to Jesus when he died. He knew nothing for those few days, because he was dead. The theif next to him died too. He knew nothing also. So if we die, and know nothing, then it would be like the clock stopped ticking and time stood still, therefore, when we are resurrected to be judged or saved then it will be TODAY for that person.

Now to know what Paradise means, many think it's heaven, some even think it's in the ground. I'll tell you what it is

Ezekiel 36:35 And they shall say, this land that was desolate is become like the Garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced and inhabited.

The above is talking about the millenium. When Christ returns he will rule in Jerusalem for 1000 years.. The whole area of Israel will be healed, not only spiritually, but physically. The landscape will change and it will be a fruitful paradise, just like the Garden of Eden. This is what paradise is. It is not heaven, but is here on earth. God has chosen a remnant from Israel to be resurrected into the flesh and dwell in this new paradise. This thief has been shown mercy and will be counted in with the remnant. Christ was under the old law up until his death. All who lived during that time will be judged by that old law. After Christ's resurrection, the system changed. We are now under grace (mercy) so that thief was before christs death, and will be raised flesh.

So Christ didn't lie. He meant what he promised him.

Thought I'd ask given the fact that I'm speculating that he didn't understand the difference between the "Oneness and the Trinity" doctrines .....and probably didn't give either any thought while he was hanging on his cross.

Christ is all knowing. He knew exactly what debates would come about. His word warns us not to follow doctrines of men. If we dont read and study the scriptures we will be decieved.

Seems that salvation is dependent upon which doctrine one believes

Good question. Salvation is dependant on those who search for the truth. Those that worship in spirit in truth will find the truth and the truth will be in them. The decieved ones who genuinly trust in Christ, but too lazy to find the truth themselves, I guess will get there in the end, but the hard way. There will be a lot of red faces.

,

it is my option to ignore the threads and accusations being thrown back and forth.

Yes sometimes when it goes on for too long it can be pointless.
But before I do, I'll ask one more question.

Which of these two doctrines best prepares me to become as a little child that Christ spoke of in regards to becoming fit for the kingdom ?

A child is innocent, uncontaminated, & eager to learn new things. A child does not argue when taught something but is like a sponge and soaks it in. A child gets excited when he learns to tie his shoe laces or learns to write his name. We should be like a child, eager to please,excited, hungry for knowledge & fully submitted to the Word of God. We cant be proud and act like we know it all. We have to be Humble & trusting in our Lord.

Not sure that I could say either of them appear to fit His criteria at the moment given the banter between the combatants. Schucks.....forget I even asked

[/QUOTE]Look you are going to get lots of mixed replies. In the end, it's your duty to find the truth and search for yourself. The answers are all in the scriptures.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

Who is denying the scriptures when they confess with their mouth and believe in their heart that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the living Son of God ?

Believing God means believing Him in everything, not just that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God. (Muslims believe that Jesus is the the Messiah.) It comes down to believing in the real Jesus and the real gospel, which is all of scripture. That does not mean that we have to fully understand everything in scripture, just that we have to be willing to believe it.

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[unclefester]

.




[/QUOTE]Look you are going to get lots of mixed replies. In the end, it's your duty to find the truth and search for yourself. The answers are all in the scriptures.

Exactly. And when we each find the truth, let's be sure to convince others of it ....... for the sake of their salvation, of course.

Thanks for your reply Journey

 

[BarstowRat]

I was not present on the day of crucifixion but I do imagine it was beyond words. I had to be amazing. One could say that the thief knew nothing, but how incredible that on those hours, this man looked over and realized that this is the man, the second Adam, the CHRIST. Either way, he confessed with his mouth, right? However, I think the single most important thing of all lies at the very core of Christianity... Who would follow a liar? Better yet, who would follow a liar to the grave? Some things I believe, we will never truly understand in our finite, earthly bodies.

Rambling I know, but I hope that makes some sense.

 

[Jeff_56]

yeah apologetics are dumb...people do it here to bugg people

Apologetics is actually defense of the faith against exterior points of view (such as atheism or Mormonism).

....... defense of doctrines not necessarily in line with Scripture. (though they all claim to be).....

TRUTH is TRUTH and remains unchanged. JESUS is TRUTH. HE is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE and

no one, not anyone, nowhere, no how,

comes to the FATHER but through JESUS. anyone who tries to get in by any other route(like rcc), is not in HIM.

anyway, when did JESUS enter paradise? according to Scripture, if known....

 

[crossnote]

....... defense of doctrines not necessarily in line with Scripture. (though they all claim to be).....

TRUTH is TRUTH and remains unchanged. JESUS is TRUTH. HE is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE and

no one, not anyone, nowhere, no how,

comes to the FATHER but through JESUS. anyone who tries to get in by any other route(like rcc), is not in HIM.

anyway, when did JESUS enter paradise? according to Scripture, if known....

Jeff, you moonlighten as a gravedigger?