Rapture= false teaching

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Apr 23, 2009
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#21
"The rapture" is going to occur, no doubt about that. The question is when. I personally prefer to hold to the post trib view considering that is how it is presented in the book of Revelations.
lol.... I would ''prefer'' to hold the pretrib view. However I cannot, seeing as the Bible clearly tells us it occurs at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#22
I just read Matthew 24 from beginning to end. And I can't recall Jesus saying He was coming back twice.

Did Jesus say he was coming back twice? No.

Did Jesus say he would keep His disciples safe from tribulation, peril, sword? I think it's a bit unrealistic to assume God will rapture away believers to escape tribulation, when day by day many Christians suffer and die for their faith in the world, and God doesn't rapture them?

While it was mentioned in a previous post that the post trib may leave someone to be unprepared and unready, Corrie Ten Boom in fact thought that the pre-trib rapture would leave the Church ill-prepared for witness under persecution:

The "witness under trial" issue was of major concern to evangelist Corrie Ten Boom, whose family suffered in Nazi prison camps during World War II for the crime of protecting Jews. Corrie Ten Boom preached that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture would leave the Christian church ill-prepared for witness under persecution, just as it had in China when Mao Zedong rose to power, and warned that Pre-Tribulationism was the sort of false doctrine that Jesus warned about.

Realise that death for the believer, is an escape from tribulation....
Isa 57:1 The righteous one perishes, and no one lays it to heart, and merciful men are taken away; no one cares that the righteous is taken away from the face of evil.

Did God rapture Noah away to avoid the flood? Or did God provide a means of protection (the ark) through the flood? There is a difference.


Jesus spoke of false prophets coming in the churches of the believers
Check up the origins of the pre-trib rapture, which was apparently revealed to a young prophetess in Scotland in the Irvingite sect (the Catholic Apostolic Church). See below:

The teaching of a secret pretribulation rapture is a doctrine that never existed before 1830. Did the pretribulation rapture come into existence by a careful exegesis of Scripture? No. The first person to teach the doctrine was a young woman named Margaret Macdonald. Margaret was not a theologian or Bible expositor but was a prophetess in the Irvingite sect (the Catholic Apostolic Church). Christian journalist Dave MacPherson has written a book on the subject of the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture. He writes: “We have seen that a young Scottish lassie named Margaret Macdonald had a private revelation in Port Glasgow, Scotland, in the early part of 1830 that a select group of Christians would be caught up to meet Christ in the air before the days of Antichrist. An eye-and-ear witness, Robert Norton M.D., preserved her handwritten account of her pre-trib rapture revelation in two of his books, and said it was the first time anyone ever split the second coming into two distinct parts or stages. His writings, along with much other Catholic Apostolic Church literature, have been hidden many decades from the mainstream of Evangelical thought and only recently surfaced. Margaret’s views were well-known to those who visited her home, among them John Darby of the Brethren. Within a few months her distinctive prophetic outlook was mirrored in the September, 1830 issue of The Morning Watch and the early Brethren assembly at Plymouth, England. Early disciples of the pre-trib interpretation often called it a new doctrine.”2

http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/rapture.htm
 
K

KingdomGeneration

Guest
#23
lol.... I would ''prefer'' to hold the pretrib view. However I cannot, seeing as the Bible clearly tells us it occurs at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.
I agree. If had any say in it Pre-Trib would be the way to go but the bible simply does not read like that.
 
Apr 19, 2009
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#24
Not only does the Bible NEVER say that the rapture is before the tribulation, it in fact literally says its after.
""Immediately after the tribulation of those days, 'The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken loose.'Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all 'the tribes of the land will mourn' when they see 'the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory.He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another."

Westernized christians are not prepared to suffer for the sake of the Kingdom. they preach that God protects them from harm and when 9/11 happened, they thought the world was endindg, but when 50 million africans die , its a part of life . westerinized christains invented teh rapture because they arent prepared to suffer persecutions and even death like Jesus wanred that christians would
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#25
Not only does the Bible NEVER say that the rapture is before the tribulation, it in fact literally says its after.
""Immediately after the tribulation of those days, 'The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken loose.'Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all 'the tribes of the land will mourn' when they see 'the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory.He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another."
Excellent point, sadly there are many that refuse to see the truth, and even more sad, there are many teachers hiding the truth from those God has entrusted to their care.

2nd Timothy 4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
 

RoboOp

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 4, 2008
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#26
Thanks guys for keeping this thread nice and friendly. This really is one of those few subjects that are not crystal clear in the scripture; I mean, I can definitely see both sides of this one. May it never be that we're not exercising love toward each other just because of disagreement on eschatology (timing of the rapture). :) The scriptures about loving each other are definitely very clear. We rebuke heresy of course, and correct error, but as for the matter of the timing of the rapture... Well I don't care what anyone says, it's not all that clear. So anyway healthy discussion is always welcome. Let's keep it healthy and friendly (as most of you pretty much seem to be doing). :)
 
Apr 19, 2009
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#27
actually the Bible is pretty clear on the fact that its after . There is no indication that it would be before . not confusing or "mysterious" at all .
 
B

Baruch

Guest
#28
actually the Bible is pretty clear on the fact that its after . There is no indication that it would be before . not confusing or "mysterious" at all .
We shall soon see.

Do note that Jesus was not always speaking in chronological order in Matthew 24.

Also note that He is answering three questions put to Him by the disciples at the beginning of the chapter.

So when He says.. "And then..", it could signify as a preceeding event to that event mentioned just prior. Note how towards the end He gives the description of the fig tree and how the entering of Noah's Ark will be akin to those being taken? And yet they would be marrying and drinking and poof... way before the sun gets darkened and so forth.. otherwise... that would be one hefty sign to miss before His appearing, wouldn't it?

So the call to be watching and ready is still given out for the Bridegroom shall be appearing soon to take His Bride into the Home He has prepared for them that love Him.

If you are ready and abiding in Him, I am sure you will not complain about it when it happens.
 

BLC

Banned
Feb 28, 2009
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#29
I have a few questions concerning the time of the great tribulation and I would like you to support your answers with scripture. I have more questions but I'll start with these just to keep things decent and in order.

1. How long or what period of time does the tribulation cover?

2. What is the event that begins the tribulation period?

3. What will be the characteristics, events, signs etc that will identify the tribulation?

4a. What event occurs, leading the Jews to their conversion after being in unbelief for 1000s of years?

4b. When did that event happen in reference to the tribulation?

5. What role do these Jews play during the tribulation?

6. If the church has to pass through the tribulation, show me from scripture what role they will play in the plan of God and in relationship to the 144,000 Jews that God raises up?

7. Show me where these 144,000 Jews get caught up with the church in the clouds of the air, at the end of the tribulation period when Christ comes back for His bride?
 
Feb 9, 2007
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#30
The wheels on the bus Go ROUND AND ROUND *shakes his head*
 
K

KingdomGeneration

Guest
#31
The wheels on the bus Go ROUND AND ROUND *shakes his head*
*lol* Zander. I'll have to take your word it seeing as I have the forums set to filter out posts by certain users.
 
Z

Zerubbabel

Guest
#32
This is the end of the matter. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, now we see through a glass, darkly, for when that which is erfect is come, then that which is not shall be domene away with.
Whether we are pre-tribulationist or post-tribulationist, Christ is coming soon and his reward is with Him to give to every one according to his work.
Let us live for Him and place no one above him. Even so come, Lord Jesus come.

Zerubbabe1
 
S

SurJones

Guest
#33
Here is what I know.

The book of Revelation is split into 3 Parts.

Rev Chapter 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”"

This chapter starts out with the greek word. Metatauta, meaning AFTER THESE THINGS. It is mention at the beginning of Verse 1 and ends with the same word in Verse 1. Now that being said our brains should fly back to Revelation 1:19, where it talks about the 3 parts. 1) Write the things which you have seen 2) The thing which are, and 2) The things which will be after these things. (metatauta) - So you can assume that Chapter 4 is the beginning of Part 3 of the book of Revelation.

So the next question is; After what things? And well it should be apparent it would be after the things he just got done talking about. And the things he just got done talking about was the church. So it can be realistic to believe that that church will exit between Chapter 3 and Chapter 4. Also note that the church was mentioned I think 19 times in from 19 times in the first 3 chapters, and you NEVER see the word again until the END of the tribulation in Revelation 19. The only GODLY group of people Satan can find to torment in the world is the Nation of Israel. Only two conclusions can be reached from these facts.

1) The church has been wiped out, through persecution by Satan. This is, of course, totally unscriptural (Matthew 16:18)
2) The church has been Taken out, through the rapture, by Christ. Various NT Back ups: 1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:16. John describes in Rev. 4:1 that He sees a door. John 10:9 Talks about the door, and 1 Thes. talks about the trumpet, which you will read in Rev 4:1b

This is my SCRIPTURAL reasoning for my Pre-Tri belief.

BTW. When Jesus will be like a thief in the night and No man knows the time or hour. I think POST or MID Trib thinking is put to the way side, since those are points in time. IMHO
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#34
So the next question is; After what things? And well it should be apparent it would be after the things he just got done talking about. And the things he just got done talking about was the church. So it can be realistic to believe that that church will exit between Chapter 3 and Chapter 4. Also note that the church was mentioned I think 19 times in from 19 times in the first 3 chapters, and you NEVER see the word again until the END of the tribulation in Revelation 19. The only GODLY group of people Satan can find to torment in the world is the Nation of Israel. Only two conclusions can be reached from these facts.

1) The church has been wiped out, through persecution by Satan. This is, of course, totally unscriptural (Matthew 16:18)
2) The church has been Taken out, through the rapture, by Christ. Various NT Back ups: 1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:16. John describes in Rev. 4:1 that He sees a door. John 10:9 Talks about the door, and 1 Thes. talks about the trumpet, which you will read in Rev 4:1b

This is my SCRIPTURAL reasoning for my Pre-Tri belief.
There are a few problems with your ''reasoning''
#1 The word church is not mention in Revelation 19.
#2 Even though the word church was not mention in Revelation 4 on does not mean t the church is not there. There word is not mentioned in either Timothy's, Titus, Peter, or any of the 3 epistles of John Does that mean these letters were not to the church or referring to the church? Further more the church is clearly present through out the entire book of Revelation.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13
7a
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints
10b Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

What is the Church if not a a body of believers? There is no doubt the church is here for the tribulation according to the book of Revelation.

BTW. When Jesus will be like a thief in the night and No man knows the time or hour. I think POST or MID Trib thinking is put to the way side, since those are points in time. IMHO
Two more mistakes you have made in your train of thought.
#1 Jesus comes as a thief to the wicked only not the righteous, just like he did with the flood the righteous knew the flood was coming a they will know when Christ is returning as well.
Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



1st Thess 5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren,

We are not in darkness, that that day should overtake us as a thief.



#2 Jesus was NOT speaking of the rapture when He said that we will not know the day or hour, He was speaking of His 2nd coming, and we know that the 2nd coming is post tribulational.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
There is no question when reading verse 36 in context rather than isolating it that it is referring to the coming of the Lord to which we are told in verse 29 that it is immediately after the tribulation.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#35
I find it's ironic that a pre tribulation view is often correlated with the following views than with actual Scripture:

Airplanes falling out of sky due to raptured pilots.

Ambulances crashing because the driver was raptured.

Two guys preaching and fire comes out of their mouth burning up their opponents, and even their bodies stop bullets!!!

Computer chip implants and a really evil guy controlling everyones minds.

Lasers on sharks controlled by an evil nemesis.

Lizard men and nephilim.

Your cans of beans has 666 on it hidden in the bar code.

One day your computer gets so smart that it starts to speak back to you. Robots start to take over the world.

Sounds like the stuff of movies, novels , games etc.. sounds like fiction to me. But it makes good reading for a laugh.
 

BLC

Banned
Feb 28, 2009
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#36
I have a few questions concerning the time of the great tribulation and I would like you to support your answers with scripture. I have more questions but I'll start with these just to keep things decent and in order.

1. How long or what period of time does the tribulation cover?

2. What is the event that begins the tribulation period?

3. What will be the characteristics, events, signs etc that will identify the tribulation?

4a. What event occurs, leading the Jews to their conversion after being in unbelief for 1000s of years?

4b. When did that event happen in reference to the tribulation?

5. What role do these Jews play during the tribulation?

6. If the church has to pass through the tribulation, show me from scripture what role they will play in the plan of God and in relationship to the 144,000 Jews that God raises up?

7. Show me where these 144,000 Jews get caught up with the church in the clouds of the air, at the end of the tribulation period when Christ comes back for His bride?
*WHY ARE THOSE THAT OPPOSE THE RAPTURE AVOIDING TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS? DO THEY TROUBLE YOU OR A THEY TOO DIFFICULT? THESE ARE SIMPLE QUESTIONS THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO ANSWER AND SUPPORT WITH SCRIPTURE.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#37
I have a few questions concerning the time of the great tribulation and I would like you to support your answers with scripture. I have more questions but I'll start with these just to keep things decent and in order.

1. How long or what period of time does the tribulation cover?

2. What is the event that begins the tribulation period?

3. What will be the characteristics, events, signs etc that will identify the tribulation?

4a. What event occurs, leading the Jews to their conversion after being in unbelief for 1000s of years?

4b. When did that event happen in reference to the tribulation?

5. What role do these Jews play during the tribulation?

6. If the church has to pass through the tribulation, show me from scripture what role they will play in the plan of God and in relationship to the 144,000 Jews that God raises up?

7. Show me where these 144,000 Jews get caught up with the church in the clouds of the air, at the end of the tribulation period when Christ comes back for His bride?
*WHY ARE THOSE THAT OPPOSE THE RAPTURE AVOIDING TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS? DO THEY TROUBLE YOU OR A THEY TOO DIFFICULT? THESE ARE SIMPLE QUESTIONS THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO ANSWER AND SUPPORT WITH SCRIPTURE.
Many different people who oppose the pretrib rapture could give many different answers to these questions. The reason i glazed over them is because they are irrelevant to why I believe the rapture is post trib. There are two easy reasons I know the rapture is post trib and neither of those reason would touch any of your questions.

#1 Reason I believe the rapture is post trib. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His return is after the Tribulation.

#2 Reason I believe the rapture is after the tribulation is because Paul tell us that tthe rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord (to find out when that is refer to Reason #1)

There are many more reason to KNOW that the rapture is post trib but that was the easy explanation, and your questions are as I said irrelevant.

Now I could answer your questions, but most post tribbers would have different answers than mine. However nothing we could say or not say to your questions would negate the fact that scripture tells us the rapture is at the post trib 2nd coming.
 

BLC

Banned
Feb 28, 2009
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#39
Many different people who oppose the pretrib rapture could give many different answers to these questions. The reason i glazed over them is because they are irrelevant to why I believe the rapture is post trib. There are two easy reasons I know the rapture is post trib and neither of those reason would touch any of your questions.

#1 Reason I believe the rapture is post trib. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His return is after the Tribulation.

#2 Reason I believe the rapture is after the tribulation is because Paul tell us that tthe rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord (to find out when that is refer to Reason #1)

There are many more reason to KNOW that the rapture is post trib but that was the easy explanation, and your questions are as I said irrelevant.

Now I could answer your questions, but most post tribbers would have different answers than mine. However nothing we could say or not say to your questions would negate the fact that scripture tells us the rapture is at the post trib 2nd coming.
You can ignore these questions if you like, but do me one courtesy and answer both parts of question #4 according to the scriptures, and that will suffice me.
 
E

espresso

Guest
#40
O.K you post-tribbers, tell me what you think of these two scriptures: :)

Mark 13:34-36
"Watch out! Don't let me find you living in careless ease and drunkenness, and filled with the worries of this life. Don't let that day catch you unaware, as in a trap. For that day will come upon everyone living on the earth. Keep a constant watch. And pray that, if possible, you may escape these horrors and stand before the Son of Man."

Why would Jesus have us pray to escape the horrors of the tribulation if it wasnt a possibility? Makes no sense.


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 You know quite well that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night. When people are saying, "All is well; everything is peaceful and secure," then disaster will fall upon them as suddenly as a woman's birth pains begin when her child is about to be born. And there will be no escape.

Do you really think people will be saying "all is well" induring the tribulation? I dont think so.


Luke 9:26
"No one knows the day or the hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. "When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah's day. In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. People didn't realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes.

When you study what it was like in Noahs day it sounds more like the times we are in now than what it will be like in the tribulation. I dont think there will be many parties during tribulation. It will be horrible beyond all things that have ever been seen. One more reason to think He will take us back before. I believe the rapture and the second coming are two diffent events.

There are many other scirptures to back this up, not to mention Gods past history of saving his people from wrath. Rejoice in this good news and be ready! Live every day as if you knew He were coming back tomorrow. It may be days, weeks, or years, but His promises are true and our future is bright.