Salvation by grace vs. obedience

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superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#1
The following quotations are from The Book of Romans, by Jim McGuiggan, Montex Publishing Company, Lubbock TX, 1982.

page 129: [begin quote]

But even though one doesn't earn righteousness and even though that righetousness is grounded on the once-for-all, non-repeatable work of Christ FOR us and INDEPENDENT of us, yet this righteousness cannot be laid hold on except by a living and abiding faith. The righteousness is "by faith"! Faith lays hold on it. This righteousness is conditional in the respect that the one who is to be declared righteous must come to Christ in faith. It is unconditional from the standpoint that it wasn't our love for God or our obedience to God which led Christ to the cross. [end quote]

Does this mean that our obedience is unnecessary? Absolutely not!

page 310 continued from same source as above. The author is commenting on Romans 10: 9-10. [begin quote]

What is required for justification is submission to Christ as Lord. (I need hardly emphasize that mere mouth confession is not what Paul has in view ---Matthew 7:21-22.)

This passage is stressing that justification comes to the believer rather than to the earner (or would be earner). It isn't sensible to use the verse as though it were denying one's need to obey Christ in order to salvation. I mean, I hear people quote these two verses to prove that people don't need to be trustingly immersed into union with Christ (see Romans 6:3ff). These verses don't stress faith over against obedience (Paul doesn't contrast these); they stress faith over against earning, law. [end quote]

Many people have continually used the salvation by faith theme to promote their views towards baptism and once saved always saved. This is a an idea that was not heard of before Martin Luther. For the first 1500 years of the church, it was unconditionally believed that baptism (though diluted by Catholicism in sprinkling) was required for salvation, and that apostasy was possible, as preached by Paul.

Now I certainly believe that we are indeed saved by grace alone, and not by anything that we do, but does that mean that this concept can be used as a tool to promote traditions and practices of men as doctrines of God? Is an act of faith, such as baptism a work? Does anyone who is baptised actually believe that they are saving themselves? That's quite a stretch, isn't it?

We live by an obedience of faith. We are obedient as we are able, though being imperfect, we sometimes stumble. We believe and have faith that Jesus, our High Priest will propitiate those sins before the Father.

As such, for a person who becomes a believer, who is unable to be baptized, that may not be held against them. But for someone who claims to be a believer, and delays baptism, when he is able to do so, then what kind of faith is that? Will that person be saved for his lack of faith? Is baptism not then neccessary for those who are able to do so?
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#2
The following quotations are from The Book of Romans, by Jim McGuiggan, Montex Publishing Company, Lubbock TX, 1982.

page 129: [begin quote]

But even though one doesn't earn righteousness and even though that righetousness is grounded on the once-for-all, non-repeatable work of Christ FOR us and INDEPENDENT of us, yet this righteousness cannot be laid hold on except by a living and abiding faith. The righteousness is "by faith"! Faith lays hold on it. This righteousness is conditional in the respect that the one who is to be declared righteous must come to Christ in faith. It is unconditional from the standpoint that it wasn't our love for God or our obedience to God which led Christ to the cross. [end quote]

Does this mean that our obedience is unnecessary? Absolutely not!

page 310 continued from same source as above. The author is commenting on Romans 10: 9-10. [begin quote]

What is required for justification is submission to Christ as Lord. (I need hardly emphasize that mere mouth confession is not what Paul has in view ---Matthew 7:21-22.)

This passage is stressing that justification comes to the believer rather than to the earner (or would be earner). It isn't sensible to use the verse as though it were denying one's need to obey Christ in order to salvation. I mean, I hear people quote these two verses to prove that people don't need to be trustingly immersed into union with Christ (see Romans 6:3ff). These verses don't stress faith over against obedience (Paul doesn't contrast these); they stress faith over against earning, law. [end quote]

Many people have continually used the salvation by faith theme to promote their views towards baptism and once saved always saved. This is a an idea that was not heard of before Martin Luther. For the first 1500 years of the church, it was unconditionally believed that baptism (though diluted by Catholicism in sprinkling) was required for salvation, and that apostasy was possible, as preached by Paul.

Now I certainly believe that we are indeed saved by grace alone, and not by anything that we do, but does that mean that this concept can be used as a tool to promote traditions and practices of men as doctrines of God? Is an act of faith, such as baptism a work? Does anyone who is baptised actually believe that they are saving themselves? That's quite a stretch, isn't it?

We live by an obedience of faith. We are obedient as we are able, though being imperfect, we sometimes stumble. We believe and have faith that Jesus, our High Priest will propitiate those sins before the Father.

As such, for a person who becomes a believer, who is unable to be baptized, that may not be held against them. But for someone who claims to be a believer, and delays baptism, when he is able to do so, then what kind of faith is that? Will that person be saved for his lack of faith? Is baptism not then neccessary for those who are able to do so?
Note: I did not mean to say grace alone above, but by grace through faith and belief in Christ as our Savior.
 
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
128
0
71
#3
Certainly we have all sinned and need forgiveness. Still, we will not find happiness until we repent of our sin.
 
M

Meridoc

Guest
#4
Obedience in important as James says "Faith without works is dead" because if we truly believed that Jesus died for our sins our only response can be one of obedience, thats not to say if we mess up that we never had faith, but what does your life show as a whole.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#5
Salvation is by Grace through Faith. Not of works (good deeds)

Paul makes it clear in eph 2: 10 that those who have saving faith WILL do good works. James makes it clear that those who do not have saving faith will prove it by their lack of works.

Paul also makes it clear it can only be if faith or works. they are not interchangeable. If you try to work for grace it is no longer grace, but a prize which is earned. (and these are not just works of the law, Paul speaks in all his epistles of works outside the law)

His most damning condemnation of a works based gospel is the fact that he called many fools who came to Christ through faith. and tried to perfect this faith by works. stating they did it all in vein. for they do nothing for their salvation.

In Galatians Paul condemned Jews adding circumcision to faith. It could easily be said that this is not a work, because your not doing anything. The person performing the sacrament of circumcision is doing the work. Yet Paul strongly calls it a work. Saying we are not circumcised by the hands of Men but of God, It is our baptism (spiritual) which cleanses us (circumcision represented being cleansed)

Satan wants to do the same thing today. By making people think water baptism, church membership, the lords supper (Eucharist) confession and repentance after every sin, or whatever must be added to grace. But these are not works, they are avenues of Grace. or whatever they wish to Call it. Paul makes it clear. Anyone adding works to grace teaches a false gospel.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#6
When one accepts Jesus into their heart.
They no longer live in flesh, but in Jesus, saved through grace.
One should not be looking to score either through works or obedience.
Simply because its not about another chalk mark in ones favor, or a check against.
It is living in Jesus, not flesh.
Jesus brings all that is given, and recieved from the Father through the Holy Spirit.
We are simply setting aside that flesh to live in Jesus.
Each of us, responding to His presance and request in heart.
Being that, which serves, witnesses, helps, obeys, gives, loves in Jesus.
Each action, transforming the flesh, to the spirit in Jesus.
Grace and obedience yes through faith, but not for gain, but that one will become all that is the heart in Jesus.
He gives all this to the willing heart, so that His glory, the glory of God Our Father, will be brought to all.
Receiving the promise of eternal life , by living in Jesus!

in Jesus, God bless.
pickles