poll: sovereign grace and free will

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S

Scotth1960

Guest
#1
Dear friends,

Opinion poll.

Which view reflects your view of things in Christian theology

1. both God's sovereign grace and human free will (orthodox

Christianity) in salvation in Christ

Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholic, Roman Catholic,

Arminian (Methodist), some other Christian denominations

2. God's sovereign grace but no human free will in salvation in Christ

(views of Martin Luther and John Calvin) early Lutheranism, (later

Lutheranism was not so apt to deny all free will), classical Calvinism

3. human free will but not God's sovereign grace (Socinian, liberal

view)

4. Calvinist like John Calvin, but following Westminster Confession of

Faith, which includes human free will (some Calvinists deny free will;

other Calvinists accept free will)

5. some other view of these matters

God bless you.

In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington
 
D

DiscipleWilliam

Guest
#2
Greetings,

I would concede that God's grace is sovereign, but I would have to ask you to define "free will." I believe that we are free moral agents capable of making choices freely, but to say that the will within Man is absolutely "free," I would beg to differ. Not with you personally, but with the statement that many claim that our will is "free." I, however, would not call myself a Calvinist because Paul clearly taught the reality of sovereign grace and the limitations of the will (e.g. his personal conversion).
 
M

Meridoc

Guest
#3
We have the choice as adam and eve did in the garden to choose God or not to choose. There are those who believe that christians are the elect, predestined, thus ruling out our choice.

There is a common verse used, Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. " They say that we are called according to his purpose, that God chooses us. While I will agree that God chose us first by sending his son, if you add the context to this verse we find that, "29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." This tells us that God foreknew us and our choice and thus also predestined and called.

Also I have yet to get an answer from "elect/predestined" believing person, about John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life." If they say that only those predestined or elected will believe, then again we are not talking about lack of free will, we are talking about God forknowing our choice. If they say that only the elect are saved and not those who choose by free will, they refute the bible and then there is a bigger problem.
 
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DiscipleWilliam

Guest
#4
We have the choice as adam and eve did in the garden to choose God or not to choose. There are those who believe that christians are the elect, predestined, thus ruling out our choice.

There is a common verse used, Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. " They say that we are called according to his purpose, that God chooses us. While I will agree that God chose us first by sending his son, if you add the context to this verse we find that, "29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." This tells us that God foreknew us and our choice and thus also predestined and called.

Also I have yet to get an answer from "elect/predestined" believing person, about John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life." If they say that only those predestined or elected will believe, then again we are not talking about lack of free will, we are talking about God forknowing our choice. If they say that only the elect are saved and not those who choose by free will, they refute the bible and then there is a bigger problem.
I would respectfully disagree with the idea that we have "the choice as Adam and Eve did in the garden to choose God or not to choose God." Firstly, because Adam and Eve were not in possession of a sinful nature as we. There are only 2 "Adams" that could make actual free will choices, the actual Adam in the garden, and the metaphorical "Adam" the Christ; man is a transgressor from the womb (Isa. 48:8), furthermore, Adam and Eve chose for themselves (sin) which separated them from God which doesn't necessarily involve apostasy. I don't understand how you say "you seek to get an answer from an elect/predestined believing person" as if it's not a doctrine teached in Scripture. As for John 3:16 Everyone should be provided the gospel without prejudice, and if they believe they will be saved, but the reality is that everyone will not believe no matter how much they are provided the gospel or regardless of the miracles they witness.
 
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Meridoc

Guest
#5
I don't understand how you say "you seek to get an answer from an elect/predestined believing person" as if it's not a doctrine teached in Scripture. As for John 3:16 Everyone should be provided the gospel without prejudice, and if they believe they will be saved, but the reality is that everyone will not believe no matter how much they are provided the gospel or regardless of the miracles they witness.
See the problem with that explanation is it doesn't really answer the question. If all who believe are "predestined" then your using the wrong word. Then you are talking about God's foreknowledge of our choice, and not God predestining us against or over our will. Because if God chooses for us and we have no choice than our worship and any glory he gets out of it has as much as I would if I set my computer to tell me I am awesome constantly. Forced choice has no value, God wants us to love him and forced love is not real love.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#6
I find irt very strange how people can say they had the same choice as Adam and Eve, that is not even biblical.

Adam and eve truly reflected God's image undistorted, Where you born that way.

Another point, why do people think that reformed theolgy denies that people have a will? you are totally free to do as you please within your nature.

Can you honestly tell me that we are like Adam and Eve before the fal. If you think about it and honest with yourself you will see that God tells us we are not. Read |Romans 1:18 - 3:21!

Foreknowledge of choice, as the Arminian would say is not biblical. its like God looks down a time tunnel and see's who will choose him, thats not biblical. theres a big problem with the arminian theory, what if that person does not choose God? and seondly do you see how this arminian/semi pelagian view shifts salvation to man, we are the kings of our lives we will decide!!!!! thats not biblical either. God is King!


Anyhow can someone show me in scrioptre where it says you have a ""Free Will"" outside of your very nature your being? And just before you answer that question, how do you get spiritual eyes to see and have faith in what i unseen?
 
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DiscipleWilliam

Guest
#7
See the problem with that explanation is it doesn't really answer the question. If all who believe are "predestined" then your using the wrong word. Then you are talking about God's foreknowledge of our choice, and not God predestining us against or over our will. Because if God chooses for us and we have no choice than our worship and any glory he gets out of it has as much as I would if I set my computer to tell me I am awesome constantly. Forced choice has no value, God wants us to love him and forced love is not real love.
I did answer the question my brother, I believe the confusion lies in the interpretation of my answer. God predestines everything towards an end- if you don't believe in that then you don't believe in the omnipotence of God's character(Hebrews 1:1-3). This predestination of God in no way negates our ability to operate as free moral agents, but it does negate our will from being absolutely free. For example, I can make a choice to be 2 feet taller, but the lack of sovereignty in my choice prohibits this from being actualized. Our will is subjected to God's divine providence, meaning, some things that we choose to do are not according to the will of God, and therefore will not happen. We are not forced to choose by God my brother, that's not the issue. The issue is our choices that we choose to make are evil, only until they are guided by the Holy Spirit (Romans 3:9). It's not God that hinders us, it's our own sinful nature.

God has created man with a will which now acts according to it's fallen nature. God created mankind w/ the natural liberty to freely choose according to his or her's strongest desires. The fact is, a man cannot help but choose his strongest desires, and if the strongest desires of man is towards sin, what does that make him? You always choose what you prefer the most at the time unless forced to do otherwise. The will does not determine the contents of the heart, the contents of the heart determine the choices of the will. Man always chooses the strongest desire of the heart. A man who doesn't choose what he ultimately wants has no will, and therefore he is insane. I'm not saying that we are robots, I am simply saying that we need to realize that we started out as slaves to sin(Romans 6:20). And were only spiritually liberated from the condemnation thereof. We will not totally posses a free will in this sinful, 3dimentional, time constrained, finite existence. Or what some call "the matrix."
 
C

ChirstNotCalvin

Guest
#8
Sovereign Grace and freewill - Bible verses Calvinists



Contents
1 INTRODUCTION 3
2 THE TERRIBLE DECREES 4
3 REFORMERS 6
3.1 COMMON CALVINISTIC DOGMA 6
3.1 CHARLES SPURGEON - GRAMMATICAL GUNPOWDER 7
3.2 ARTHUR W PINK – ‘IT MUST BE…’ 7
3.3 GRUDEM – CLOSET CALVINISM 8
3.4 SUMMARY 8
4 BORN BAD OR NOT 9
4.1 THE STATUS OF CHILDREN. 9
4.3 THE HUMAN RACE 10
5 CAUSE OF SIN 11
6 INHERITED SIN OR NOT 12
6.1 MISUSED TEXTS. 12
7 HUMAN CHOICE – FIXED OR FREE 14
8 CONCLUSIONS 15




1 Introduction




Brief history
In the 5th century BC the dominant theologian of the time was Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo in North Africa, The mountain of his writing shaped the church which is now known as the Catholic church, In15xx an Augustinian monk sparked a major revolution in church history which became known as the Reformation, The most dominant leader of the reformation was a man named John Calvin who wrote the book “The institute of the Christian Religion”. The ideas in this book dominate high reformed thought to this day. In 1618 two Dutchmen published 5 disagreements with the prevailing reformed theology. This became known as the remonstrance. Today, denominations in Europe are based either on the high reformed thinking or line themselves with the remonstrance position.
Since the remonstrance a gargantuan amount has already been said and written about the difference between the opposing positions. The fundamental ideas on both sides seems to be derived from understanding or interpretation of the idea of ‘ORIGINAL SIN’
Therefore this study is largely a trawl through to Old and New Testaments to compare reformed views with actual biblical evidence.
All Bible quotations are from the authorized King James Version




2 The Terrible Decrees


John Calvin – Condition of Babies Institutes Reference
… hence even infants bring their condemnation with them from their mother’s womb, suffer not from another’s, but their own defect….and therefore cannot but be odious and abominable to God.
Book 2, Ch 1, Section 8

"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will." Book 3, Ch 23, Section 4

God ... arranges all things by his counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death
Book 3, Ch 23, Section 6
"Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? ... The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree." "And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision..”
Book 3, Ch 23, Section 7



John Calvin - The cause of Original Sin ?
"...it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God's secret plan." "..God's secret plan is the cause of hardening." Book 2, Ch 23, Section 1
some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and accordingly, as each has been created for one or the other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or death.” Book 3, Ch 21, Section 5

"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others." Book 3, Ch 21, Section 5

"Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children." Book 3, Ch 23, Section 1
"With Augustine I say: the Lord has created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This has happened because he has willed.” Book 3, Ch 23, Section 5
God not only foresaw the fall off the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity: but also at his own pleasure arranged it.”
Book 3, Ch 23, Section 7
"Even though by God's eternal providence man has been created to undergo that calamity to which he is subject, it still takes its occasion from man himself, not from God, since the only reason for his ruin is that he has degenerated from God's pure creation into vicious and impure perversity." Book 3, Ch 23, Section 9




Calvin’s Contradictions
Fall decreed by God Fall NOT decreed by God
"...salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it". Book 3, Ch 21, Section 5

"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others". Book 3, Ch 21, Section 5
"...it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God's secret plan." "..God's secret plan is the cause of hardening". Book 2, Ch 23, Section 1 "Man falls according as God's providence ordains, but he falls by his own fault". Book 3, Ch 23, Section 8

"Even though by God's eternal providence man has been created to undergo that calamity to which he is subject, it still takes its occasion from man himself, not from God, since the only reason for his ruin is that he has degenerated from God's pure creation into vicious and impure perversity." Book 3, Ch 23, Section 9

"Moreover, the Wicked bring upon themselves the just destruction to which they are destined". Book 3, Ch 24

"The very inequality of his grace proves that it is free." Book 3, Ch 21, Section 6
"...God could foresee nothing good in man except what he had already determined to bestow by the benefit of his election,.." Book 3, Ch 22, Section5

God “Predestines people to damnation” !! No – God “Passes Over”??
Some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and accordingly, as each has been created for one or the other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or death.” Book 3, Ch 21, Section 5
"...we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction. ...he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation." Book 3, Ch 21, Section 7
God not only foresaw the fall off the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity: but also at his own pleasure arranged it.” Book 3, Ch 23, Section 7
"Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children." Book 3, Ch 23, Section 1




3 Reformers

3.1 Common Calvinistic Dogma



"The whole human race existed as one moral person in Adam; so that in Adam's sin we sinned, we corrupted ourselves, and we brought guilt and merited condemnation upon ourselves. Adam's will was the will of the species, so that in Adam's free act, the will of the race revolted against God and the nature of the race corrupted itself."
"Unconscious infants, dying without baptism, are damned by virtue of their inherited guilt."
"From this condemnation no one is exempt, not even newborn children."
Doctrine of Augustine, 5th Century A.D.


"Even children, dying un baptized, are lost."
Martin Luther

The sin of Adam is the immediate cause and ground of inborn depravity, guilt, and condemnation to the whole human race."
A. H. Strong, Systematic Theology


"Every man is guilty in Adam, and is consequently born with a depraved and corrupt nature. And this inner corruption is the unholy fountain of all actual sin."
L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology

"Original sin is the corruption of man's nature, whereby he is utterly indisposed, disabled and made opposite to all that is spiritually good, and wholly inclined to evil, and that continually."
Larger Catechism

we assuredly gather it was His everlasting determination so to do; and consequently that He reprobated some from before the foundation of the world A W Pink ‘The Sovereignty of God pp 83-84

If then God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass then He must have decreed that vast numbers of human beings should pass out of this world unsaved to suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire.
A W Pink ‘From The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation Chapter 5


"From this original corruption whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions."
Westminster Confession



3.1 Charles Spurgeon - Grammatical Gunpowder

The following text relates to a common problem. ‘Words do not mean what they say’. This argument is often used to explain away a biblical text that is contradictory to a desired dogma. Spurgeon destroys such fallacies as shown below.







































3.2 Arthur W Pink – ‘It Must be…’

Arthur W Pink’s wrote many books where his forthright views make Calvin himself look a bit soft. Never mind the secret council of God’s will. No, ‘IT MUST BE’ declares Pink.










Pinks logic is often used by modern Calvinist and directly contradicts their notion of original sin. I.E. Did Adam voluntary sin or was it prearranged?













Supra Lapsarian – Calvanist who believe God pre arranges every event and even the fall as described in Geneses was pre planned down to the very second.

Infra Lapsarian – Calvanists who believe that Adam fell by his own free will and only after this event did God pre plan who would be saved and who would be lost.

3.3 Grudem – Closet Calvinism

Modern Calvinism is the kind of Calvinism that A W Pink vigorously attacks. Pink belongs to the ‘Double Predestination’ school of thought. That is that God actively dams people to hell. I.E. Calvin’s terrible decree. This teaching often gets its proponents into a lot of heated debate and trouble. Hence it has been watered down and most modern Calvinists adhere the ‘Single Predestination’ view. That is God pre elects those who will be saved but ‘passes over’ those who wont be. The purpose of this teaching is to try and avoid the inescapable conclusion that God is the author of sin. Grudem is one of many who attempt to use circular logic to get themselves out of trouble as shown in the article below.



















3.4 Summary
• Predestination is only mentioned 4 times in the Bible. Always referring to the future state of believers. The notion that every teaching has a positive and negative side, hence ‘proving’ Calvinistic predestination - has no biblical basis whatsoever.
• There is not one shred of evidence in the Bible for double or single predestination.
• The single predestination proponents still have the problem that those passed over have never had nor will have any chance of salvation. Teaching totally opposite to the Bible.
• Any version of Calvinistic predestination contradicts its own versions of the concept of original sin.



4 Born Bad or Not
4.1 The Status of Children.

The Calvinistic doctrine is that babies are born “odious and abominable” to God. The actual Biblical text not only makes no mention of this but says the opposite E.G no knowledge between good and evil. It is self evident that babies know nothing when they are born let alone the difference between good and evil. The Bible text states ‘For before the child shall know to refuse the evil’. Hence the Bible teaches that babies are born innocent, and they reach an age of accountability before they can willfully commit sin. Calvinism supports a major contradiction in that babies are born ‘Totally Depraved” (First of the 5 points of Calvinism) but are made clean by Infant Baptism. I.E. a work of man.
Jesus
Calvin’s Institutes

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 18:3

… hence even infants bring their condemnation with them from their mothers womb, suffer not from another’s, but their own defect….and therefore cannot but be odious and abominable to God.
Book 2, Ch 1, Section 8


"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 19:14

"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will." Book 3, Ch 23, Section 4

"And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them and blessed them." Mark 10:13-16 and Luke 18:16-17


God .. arranges all things by his counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death. Book 3, Ch 23, Section 6
Other Texts

“Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." Deuteronomy 1:39


"Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrers shall be forsaken of both her kings." Isaiah 7:15-16





4.3 The Human Race

"Original sin is the hereditary depravity and corruption of our nature…which first makes us subject to the wrath of God, and then produces in us works which the Scripture calls works of the flesh." Calvin

Ecclesiastes 7:29: "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions

This text, one of many, confirms that God has NOT created man totally depraved, odious or obnoxious but as it says ‘upright’. Also ‘in his own image and likeness’. Hence without sin. The following texts show that no one is born a sinner. Born in sin meaning born into a sinful world.

Some Opposing Reformed Views
"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will." Calvin Book 3, Ch 23, Section 4
"...God could foresee nothing good in man except what he had already determined to bestow by the benefit of his election" Calvin Book 3, Ch 22, Section5

Bible


"God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…And God saw everything that he had made, and…it was very good." Gen. 1:26, 31

"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." Ecclesiastes 7:29

"Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture."
Psalm 100:3


"God that made the world and all things therein…seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; and hath made of one blood all nations of men…For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God…" Acts 17:24-26, 28-29


"Man…is the image and glory of God." I Corinthians 11:7

"Men, which are made after the similitude of God." James 3:9
 
C

ChirstNotCalvin

Guest
#9
Soverign Grace and free will - Part 2

Cause of SIn

The Bible says many times that men, having been created upright and in the image of God, have corrupted themselves not created corrupt. Or gone astray (past tense) and sinned against the good nature that God created them with. There are hundreds of texts in the Bible that speak of sin, and sin is always the evil or wickedness that the sinner has knowingly and willfully done. There are no exceptions.
"Thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doeth the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them that do such things, and doeth the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?…who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil." Romans 2:1-3, 6-9
The following Bible verses give a completely different picture to that cast by Calvinists.
Bible


"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him…And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

Genesis 1:27, 31

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth…And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."
Genesis 6:5-7, 11-12

"They have corrupted themselves; They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it." Exodus 32:7-8
"For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you." Deut. 31:29
"They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation. Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?…Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee." Deuteronomy 32:5-6, 18

"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."
Ecclesiastes 7:29
"They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Psalm 14:1-3
"Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Psalm 53:3
"Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men (because of your sins), and fall like one of the princes." Psalm 82:6-7
"There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man…for from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man."
Mark 7:15, 21-23
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
James 1:12-15








6 Inherited Sin or Not

The Bible says that man is guilty for his own sins and for his own sins alone. He is not guilty, and cannot be guilty, for the sin of Adam or any other man:
Biblical Text


"Far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked. That be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Genesis 18:25

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Deuteronomy 24:16


"But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin." II Chronicles 25:4

“But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin." 2 Kings 14:6

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20

"Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." Ezekiel 33:20


6.1 Misused texts.


Genesis 8:21: "For the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Note: From youth. NOT Birth. Later texts quoted below show that the Bible teaches that Humans GO astray, not made that way.

Psalm 51:5: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
If Psalm 51:5 is to be taken literally the so must Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." It is surely obvious that these verses are figurative. If they were taken literally as fact, they would teach contrary to reality and what is impossible. What baby has ever had the vocal chords, muscles, knowledge to do any other than cry ? NONE.
Ephesians 2:3: "And were by nature the children of wrath."

Taken in isolation and completely out of any context and with pre conceived ideas this verse is used to ‘prove’ that babies are condemned by God from birth. ‘ Were by nature’ has nothing to do with being born. The context shows that Paul was explaining to adults there character and nature before they were converted. Notice "were by nature" is past tense.


Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Note ‘death passed upon” NOT created dead in sin or anything remotely similar. Also ‘all have sinned’ NOT all created sinners to start with. Paul continues:- 13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Hence Paul did not consider Adam's sin (original sin) to be their sin. In fact Paul states some did not sin. How the can they be born sinners as Calvinists claim?

Biblical Text
Test Type

"Before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good…"
Isaiah 7:16

"When the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another."
Romans 2:14-15




7 Human Choice – Fixed or Free



NOTE: The text below is NOT intended to suggest that humans can save themselves or any Armenian type theory.


Biblical Text

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Genesis 6:5

"For the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."
Genesis 8:21
They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation. Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee and established thee?…Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee."
Deut. 32:3-6, 18
"That he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good…"
Isaiah 7:15-16
“But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served.” Joshua 24:15

"Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations…they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not Isaiah 66:3-4


Genesis 5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Did the Lord predestine himself to be ‘grieved at heart’? The texts above as well as many others prove that humans are created NOT sinners but in the image of God. Then reach an age of accountability – Isaiah 7:15-16‘before the child shall know’ (also Romans 2:14-18). They can then exercise to chose ‘that in which I delighted not ‘ to ‘corrupted themselves’.
There is no biblical evidence to suggest any human was ever created for damnation as Calvin states (see Calvin’s contradictions above).






8 Conclusions


• The biblical definition of sin differs from ‘standard’ teaching E.G- "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." I John 3:4 and "For where no law is, there is no transgression." Rom. 4:15.

• The source of sin differs from standard teaching E.G But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Matthew 15:18-19


• The teaching that babies are born sinners or ‘Totally Depraved’ is not supported by scripture. Sin being as the Bible says doing evil knowing it to be evil! But babies really know nothing and really do nothing when they are born


• There is Biblical evidence for an age of accountability and the need for knowledge of the law to be able to sin. E.G "And your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither." Deuteronomy 1:39. Or Sin is not imputed where there is no law. Romans 5:13.

• The Calvanistic view if not adds to Bible teaching certainly take a blinkered approach, reading ideas into the Bible. Ignoring the majority of the text. Redefining words E.G All does mean what it says. See Spurgeon’s Grammatical Gunpowder section above.

2 Peter 2: 1-9, “But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach their destructive heresies about God and even turn against their Master who bought them. Theirs will be a swift and terrible end.
In short – if it is not mentioned in the Bible then it’s not Biblical
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#10
8 Conclusions


• The biblical definition of sin differs from ‘standard’ teaching E.G- "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." I John 3:4 and "For where no law is, there is no transgression." Rom. 4:15.

• The source of sin differs from standard teaching E.G But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Matthew 15:18-19


• The teaching that babies are born sinners or ‘Totally Depraved’ is not supported by scripture. Sin being as the Bible says doing evil knowing it to be evil! But babies really know nothing and really do nothing when they are born


• There is Biblical evidence for an age of accountability and the need for knowledge of the law to be able to sin. E.G "And your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither." Deuteronomy 1:39. Or Sin is not imputed where there is no law. Romans 5:13.

• The Calvanistic view if not adds to Bible teaching certainly take a blinkered approach, reading ideas into the Bible. Ignoring the majority of the text. Redefining words E.G All does mean what it says. See Spurgeon’s Grammatical Gunpowder section above.

2 Peter 2: 1-9, “But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach their destructive heresies about God and even turn against their Master who bought them. Theirs will be a swift and terrible end.
In short – if it is not mentioned in the Bible then it’s not Biblical

Hi Christnotcalvin,

Although you cut and paste a lot of information, your conclusions are actually not all factual, spurgeon himself was reformed, thats what is making laugh at your hypothese.

Now, you still havent distinguished between reformed views.

I'll give you an example, arminian theology is prevailent in Pentecostal, Methodist and Baptist and the list goes on.

Now can you tell me, what is reformed, who is reformed are they all presbyterians? thats why I laugh at your argument. there are reformed Baptist, reformed pentecostals and the list goes on. what was Spurgeon?? why do you think he dioffers from presbyterians?

So your argument does not even hold, and infact is actually quite a childish attempt. to uphold an arminian -semi -pelagian view of scripture.

But I will admit it did give me a chuckle.
 
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ChirstNotCalvin

Guest
#11
Tosh

Forget Calvinism. Forget Arminianism. Forget any other man made dogma. Just as Christ did not follow the man made dogmas. Stick to the BIBLE - no argument.
 
Jan 14, 2010
1,010
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#12
last time i checked, God gave Cain the choice to sin or not to sin (Genesis 4:7)
if double predestination exists (even though modern calvinists are afraid to say it), then Genesis 4:7 is a joke

Calvinism does not only make God the author of sin, but also has Him finding pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, since He has predestined people to hell for His own good will
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#13
Tosh

Forget Calvinism. Forget Arminianism. Forget any other man made dogma. Just as Christ did not follow the man made dogmas. Stick to the BIBLE - no argument.

Tosh !!! lol,


OK CnC, I can see now you don;t understand the argument, I was beginning to think with your eloquent prose that you may know exactly what you are talking about but the above shows me you don't.

We all Just follow christ, so stop being silly. Tell me CnC do you have any dogmas, ohh I bet you have a few :)

Whatd does the bible tell me about a new heart.. who gives this new heart CnC, lets see if you have no dogmas of your own!
 
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ChirstNotCalvin

Guest
#14
Hi Again Phil

Looking over several post - You sure like arguing. Getting back to the thread -Sovereign Grace and Free will - As others have commented, Is God the author of Sin or not ? I would say not. Is that a dogma that 'you bet I have" ?

Since you ask I will tell what I think of reformed doctrine. A doctrine that has evolved quite a bit since Luther's protests. No I am not an arminian - yawn.

Have you reda the book "The other side of Calvinism" by Dr L M Vance.? If so what's your take on it ?
 
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Scotth1960

Guest
#15
Hi Again Phil

Looking over several post - You sure like arguing. Getting back to the thread -Sovereign Grace and Free will - As others have commented, Is God the author of Sin or not ? I would say not. Is that a dogma that 'you bet I have" ?

Since you ask I will tell what I think of reformed doctrine. A doctrine that has evolved quite a bit since Luther's protests. No I am not an arminian - yawn.

Have you reda the book "The other side of Calvinism" by Dr L M Vance.? If so what's your take on it ?
Dear ChristNotCalvin, Yes. I have read "The Other Side of Calvinism" by Lawrence M. Vance. Convincing book. It's only limitation is its Baptist doctrine and premillennialism. I think Vance talks about that. Anyway, Vance also seems to be a KJV only believer. In any case, he makes a good case that Calvinism is not biblical. Take care. God bless us. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS If Calvinism is true, then God is the author of sin, and makes people sin so He can damn them to hell for the sins He makes them do.

 
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ChirstNotCalvin

Guest
#16
Hi Scotth 1960

Calvinism is definitely NOT biblical as many people on this web site have demonstrated.

My experience if one does not go along with a cavanist then one is labeled an Arminian. It does not seem to be common knowledge who or what Arminius taught or believed. He did NOT propose free will in the sense that Calvinist allege. In fact he was a Calvinist of his time. Being a Professor he was asked to look into a problem in that two Dutchmen were not toeing the party line. This came to be known as the remonstrance. On researching the remonstrators views, he found there was not biblical evidence whatsoever that the Bible teaches humans are predestined to hell. He did not entirely disagree with the remonstrators. He did not go on the campaign trail as he was a mainstream reformer and he knew he would get burnt at the stake for doing so.

Thats a very short history. my point is that Calvanist peddle there stuff based on misinformation and straw man arguments. If only they would read the stuff Calvin wrote and published. I have posted some of it on this web sit already. Dr Vance maybe a KJV only man but his book contains the teaching of just about every mainstream Calvanist and put it alongside the Bible to expose its heresy.

Most Calvinists do not know that Calvin was a 'supralapsarian'. That is he taught that God predestine Adam and Eve's fall to the very second. ( Institutes book 3 Ch27). Calvin taught 'double predestination,'. Calvanist alway lose an argument on this because it means God is indeed the author of sin. Hence ey invent 'single predestination'. I.E God predestines the elect but passes over the rest. As if that makes a difference. Its not just offensive stuff it is actually blasphemy. If it were correct it would be in the Bible.

Many people on this web site have already demonstrated the biblical position.

The biggest problem in the UK regarding the church is that rotwieler churchians peddle this Calvinistic clap trap and lead many astray. That is why third world countries are sending missionaries back to the UK.
 
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FireOnTheAltar

Guest
#17
I personally do not believe that the soveriegnty of God is threatened by the free will of men. Scripture states that God "sees the end from the beginning". The bible also states that God is not a respector of persons, holding not one in higher regard than another. Keeping this in mind, it's clear that God extends His grace to all yet that He already knows those who will submit themselves to His will in and through their own lives.
 
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SirGalahad

Guest
#18
Just a quick thought.
I don´t want to heat up this discussion even more, but I think, there is a big mistake made by some people here.
The mistake is jumping to the conclusion that because God wanted/decreed/planned something to happen, he is automatically to be blamed for the moral implications of this deed. This is, I admit, a logical conclusion according to our modern, western mindset. But the Bible never makes this conclusion.
The Bible is actually full of examples of things God clearly decreed, but the moral responsibility of which clearly lie with the people who committed these acts. The Bible never accuses God of sinning or calls him the author or source of sin, yet some of the things he ordered to happen were later punished as sin.
I think this goes to show, that the will of God and the human will are far more interwoven, as we can imagine or demonstrate. The two cannot be separated. There always is a human side to every story, concerning our decisions and our responsibility, but behind everything there is also God´s will and doing, which we can often only see, when we take a step back and look at the big picture.
It also shows that we should not jump to quick conclusions, just because they seem logical to us, whereas the Bible does not draw these conclusions.

I´ll try to give some examples.
The prophets of the OT clearly stated that it was God who actively sent the Babylonians to destroy Israel. Jeremiah most of all leaves no doubt about this (Jer 20:4, 21:4, 22:25, 27:6-8, 28:14 etc. Compare also Ezra 5:12, Hez 26:7+29:19 etc.). In Jer 25:9 God even calls Nebuchadnezzar his servant, whom he sends to destroy the land. Yet only three verses further down, in Jer 25:12 (and verse 14), he says, he will punish Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians for their iniquity and for what they did.
So God decreed it. Yet he is not to be blamed. The Babylonians alone are responsible for what they did.
Sounds illogical? - It didn´t sound illogical to Jeremiah.

Furthermore, what was the worst, most heinous sin ever committed?
- Surely it was the killing of the son of the living God on a cross like a criminal.
Who is responsible for this sin? - Clearly those people who sentenced and killed him, and their supporters (Mt 27:25). And in a way all we humans are.
But was it God´s will and plan, that his son was killed? - It sure was! (Isa 53:6-10, 2 Cor 5:21 etc.)
Most clearly this is expressed in Acts 2:23:
" Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."
So, God´s plan, yet our fault.
Sounds illogical? - It didn´t to Peter.

Maybe what I said scares you and it doesn´t fit your image of God.
But remember, the Bible tells us beyond doubt, that God is a good and loving God who cares for us.
So, even though his good plan for this world does include things we don´t understand or which seem evil to us, we can always rely on his promise that in the end everything will work out for the best of those who trust in him. And for the highest glory of his name.

Thank you for your time.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
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#19
Just a quick thought.
I don´t want to heat up this discussion even more, but I think, there is a big mistake made by some people here.
The mistake is jumping to the conclusion that because God wanted/decreed/planned something to happen, he is automatically to be blamed for the moral implications of this deed. This is, I admit, a logical conclusion according to our modern, western mindset. But the Bible never makes this conclusion.
The Bible is actually full of examples of things God clearly decreed, but the moral responsibility of which clearly lie with the people who committed these acts. The Bible never accuses God of sinning or calls him the author or source of sin, yet some of the things he ordered to happen were later punished as sin.
I think this goes to show, that the will of God and the human will are far more interwoven, as we can imagine or demonstrate. The two cannot be separated. There always is a human side to every story, concerning our decisions and our responsibility, but behind everything there is also God´s will and doing, which we can often only see, when we take a step back and look at the big picture.
It also shows that we should not jump to quick conclusions, just because they seem logical to us, whereas the Bible does not draw these conclusions.

I´ll try to give some examples.
The prophets of the OT clearly stated that it was God who actively sent the Babylonians to destroy Israel. Jeremiah most of all leaves no doubt about this (Jer 20:4, 21:4, 22:25, 27:6-8, 28:14 etc. Compare also Ezra 5:12, Hez 26:7+29:19 etc.). In Jer 25:9 God even calls Nebuchadnezzar his servant, whom he sends to destroy the land. Yet only three verses further down, in Jer 25:12 (and verse 14), he says, he will punish Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians for their iniquity and for what they did.
So God decreed it. Yet he is not to be blamed. The Babylonians alone are responsible for what they did.
Sounds illogical? - It didn´t sound illogical to Jeremiah.

Furthermore, what was the worst, most heinous sin ever committed?
- Surely it was the killing of the son of the living God on a cross like a criminal.
Who is responsible for this sin? - Clearly those people who sentenced and killed him, and their supporters (Mt 27:25). And in a way all we humans are.
But was it God´s will and plan, that his son was killed? - It sure was! (Isa 53:6-10, 2 Cor 5:21 etc.)
Most clearly this is expressed in Acts 2:23:
" Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."
So, God´s plan, yet our fault.
Sounds illogical? - It didn´t to Peter.

Maybe what I said scares you and it doesn´t fit your image of God.
But remember, the Bible tells us beyond doubt, that God is a good and loving God who cares for us.
So, even though his good plan for this world does include things we don´t understand or which seem evil to us, we can always rely on his promise that in the end everything will work out for the best of those who trust in him. And for the highest glory of his name.

Thank you for your time.

Very good post...God's sovereignty and mans responsibility.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#20
last time i checked, God gave Cain the choice to sin or not to sin (Genesis 4:7)
if double predestination exists (even though modern calvinists are afraid to say it), then Genesis 4:7 is a joke

Calvinism does not only make God the author of sin, but also has Him finding pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, since He has predestined people to hell for His own good will
Calvinism, Zilla64007, Is just a form of Augustinianism, and the theology of Augustine of Hippo is the venom (poison) that has infected the body and the soul of Western Christendom. What, then, are we to make of the Protestant Reformation, with its Augustinian base? People will have differing opinions on this. See the book by James R. Payton, Jr., "Getting the Reformation Wrong: Correcting Some Misunderstandings", Copyright 2010, IVP Academic, an imprint of InterVarsity Press, Downers Grove, IL. The back jacket cover of this book states:
"Most students of history know that Martin Luther nailed his ninety-five theses to the Wittenberg Church door and that John Calvin penned the Institutes of the Christian Religion. However, many of us misunderstand how the Reformation, which was quite messy, unfolded.
"Using the most up-to-date Reformation scholarship, the author exposes, challenges and corrects some common misrepresentations of the Reformation, including:
* The medieval Catholic Church was monolithic and moribund.
* The Renaissance was strictly a human-centered movement.
* The Reformation progressed rapidly and smoothly.
*The Reformers were in agreement about most theological issues.
*Sola Scriptura means Scripture is our only religious authority.
*Protestant scholasticism was a return to doctrinal faithfulness.
*The Reformation was a uniform success."

Take care.
God bless us all always everywhere and with everyone who believes the same Nicene Creed without the Filioque! Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington