Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

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ResLight

Guest
Titus 1:3,4 -- Our Savior is both Jesus and His God

i would like to introduce you to my young brother zack...he (and many others) can help you resolve the issue:



http://christianchat.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=458402
Titus 1:3,4 - 3 but in his own time revealed his word in the message with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God, our Savior; 4 to Titus, my true child according to a common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God, the Father, and the Lord, Jesus Christ, our Savior. -- World English.

"God" in this verse is not idenitified as three persons, but as one person, the God and Father of Jesus. The assumption is evidently that since both "God" and the Son of God are called "our Savior", that the Son of God must be "God"; then the trinitarian has to further imagine and assume that that Jesus Christ is actually a person of "God". Additionally, it has to be further imagined and assumed that "God" cannot send a savior who is not Himself.

Of course, "God", the God and Father of Jesus, who is also the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, can indeed send saviors of his people who are no Himself. He sent many saviors to Israel as we see from what is recorded in the Old Testament. (Judges 3:9; 6:13,14; 7:7; 8:22; 13:5; 2 Samuel 3:18; Nehemiah 9:7) All whom Yahweh sent acted on behalf of Yahweh, and Yahweh is given the credit, as though it were Yahweh Himself who performed the acts, without any thought that the one sent by Yahweh would have to be a person of Yahweh. (Exodus 3:10,12; 12:17; 18:10; Numbers 16:28; Judges 2:6,18; 3:9,10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:24,25; 14:6,19; 15:14,18; 16:20,28-30, 2 Kings 4:27; Isaiah 43:11, 45:1-6) Thus, the Israelites could have referred to Gideon as "OUR SAVIOR" and also at the same time spoken of Yahweh as "our SAVIOR" without any thought that Gideon would have to be a person of Yahweh. Likewise, with Jesus, who was sent by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, could be referred to as "Our Savior" and at the same his God and Father who sent him is also our Savior. None of this means that a savior sent by Yahweh has to be Yahweh, or a person of Yahweh.
See also:
Isaiah 43:11 – Besides Yahweh There is No Savior
 
R

ResLight

Guest
Titsu 2:3 -

i would like to introduce you to my young brother zack...he (and many others) can help you resolve the issue:



http://christianchat.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=458402
Titus 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. -- King James Version

Titus 2:13 - Westcott & Hort Interlinear
prosdechomenoi teen makarian elpida kai epiphaneian
AWAITING THE HAPPY HOPE AND MANIFESTATION
4327 3588 3107 1680 2532 2015
tees doxees tou megalou theou kai swteeros heemwn
OF THE GLORY OF THE GREAT GOD AND OF SAVIOR OF US
3588 1391 3588 3173 2316 2532 4990 1473_8
christou ieesou
OF CHRIST JESUS,
5547 2424

Without using the imagination so as "see" Paul identifying Jesus as Jehovah in this verse, one would simply conclude that "appearing" or "manifestation" is distributed to two persons: the great God and also to the one who is the Savior of us, Jesus Christ. While Paul could have referred to Jesus as the great GOD in this verse, in the sense of having Great Might as the one sent by the only true Might, more than likely he was simply using the a distributive form relating to two persons, one who is the God and Father of Jesus, and the other who the Son of the Great God, whom the Great God sent to save the world. (John 3:17; 17:3; 1 John 4:14) It certainly would stretch the imagination to assume that Paul constructed his sentence in the manner that he did so that trinitarians would imagine and assume that he was speaking of Jesus as a person of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There is actually no reason to imagine and assume that Paul meant what he said to identify Jesus as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

See:
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/1192.html
 
A

Abiding

Guest
It isnt just cessationists that can see this apostacy for what it is. I suggest you read their prophecies and see for yourself. There is a trail of sorrow and broken families following these ministries. Especially the warefare ones. Totally unbiblical. Prophets are looked at as amazing if they cn keep a 60% success rate even tho they are vague, and most are not even tested by their followers. Anyone who thinks that a gift has to be educated and formed in a person doesnt understand what a gift is. And couldnt easily twist enough scripture to sell that. To educate and train a gift is merely educating and training a person to play the role of a prophet...like any kind of trade....but this is not a true prophet, and just becuase it is supernatural doesnt mean a thing.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Re: Titsu 2:3 -

Titus 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. -- King James Version

Titus 2:13 - Westcott & Hort Interlinear
prosdechomenoi teen makarian elpida kai epiphaneian
AWAITING THE HAPPY HOPE AND MANIFESTATION
4327 3588 3107 1680 2532 2015
tees doxees tou megalou theou kai swteeros heemwn
OF THE GLORY OF THE GREAT GOD AND OF SAVIOR OF US
3588 1391 3588 3173 2316 2532 4990 1473_8
christou ieesou
OF CHRIST JESUS,
5547 2424

Without using the imagination so as "see" Paul identifying Jesus as Jehovah in this verse, one would simply conclude that "appearing" or "manifestation" is distributed to two persons: the great God and also to the one who is the Savior of us, Jesus Christ. While Paul could have referred to Jesus as the great GOD in this verse, in the sense of having Great Might as the one sent by the only true Might, more than likely he was simply using the a distributive form relating to two persons, one who is the God and Father of Jesus, and the other who the Son of the Great God, whom the Great God sent to save the world. (John 3:17; 17:3; 1 John 4:14) It certainly would stretch the imagination to assume that Paul constructed his sentence in the manner that he did so that trinitarians would imagine and assume that he was speaking of Jesus as a person of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There is actually no reason to imagine and assume that Paul meant what he said to identify Jesus as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

See:
Titus 2:13 – The Great God
oh yes....the occultists Westcott & Hort.


i wonder why don't we care about finding out who these people are?

oh well. i guess any old occultist will do when it comes to the denial of the Eternal Deity of Christ.

interesting that it is ALWAYS THE USUAL SUSPECTS - gee...i wonder what THE GAME PLAN IS.

hmmm....Rosicrucians are the HIDDEN HAND (British Israelism)....and.....they got "Apostles"....hmmmm.....who's mission is to deny the Deity of Christ , introuduce occultism into mainstaream Christianity, and help establish the age old Talmudic Plan of taking 'Greater Israel" by violence, and eugenics.

now let's see: we need a hermeneutic and eschatology THAT FITS THE TALMUDIC AGENDA (who cares if it matches what God said...nobody WILL BE ANY THE WISER)

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THE NINETEENTH CENTURY OCCULT REVIVAL
The Legacy of Westcott & Hort
by Barbara Aho

......As an undergraduate at Cambridge, B.F. Westcott also founded the Hermes Club, which he named after the Graeco-Egyptian deity, Hermes Trismegistus. Subsequent Hermetic societies founded by other Spiritualists would become famous in England -- one organized in 1884 by Anna Kingsford and Edward Maitland, which was in close contact with the Theosophical Society, (26) and The Order of the Golden Dawn founded by MacGregor Mathers and Wynn Westcott. James Webb has elucidated the meaning of Hermes: .....

....Gauld hints that the ideological disposition of this elite society was toward the design of a future global harmonization: "(The) Apostles had hoped that developments in the social sciences would before long make possible an equitable and frictionless society." (38) He notes also the club's profound effect upon its members: "The spirit of the society gradually came to absorb and dominate Sidgwick completely and to influence the whole direction of his life." (39) Sidgwick's memoirs state, "…the tie of attachment to this society is much the strongest corporate bond which I have known in my life." F.J.A. Hort and B.F. Westcott were also members, Arthur Hort describing his father's ardor and influence:
"…in June (1851) joined the mysterious Company of the Apostles…He remained always a grateful and loyal member of the secret Club, which has now become famous for the number of distinguished men who have belonged to it. In his time the Club was in a manner reinvigorated, and he was mainly responsible for the wording of an oath which binds members to a conspiracy of silence. " (40).....
[SIZE=+0]In 1882, Henry Sidgwick, Frederic Myers, Edmund Gurney, Arthur and Gerald Balfour founded the Society for Psychical Research. Sidgwick who became the first president of the S.P.R. continued in this position for nine years. His prestigious connections and influence at Cambridge drew a number of distinguished persons into the Society, which James Webb speculates fulfilled the function of "Spiritualist church for intellectuals." Future Prime Minister Arthur Balfour, who was Sidgwick's ablest student at Cambridge, would serve as president of the S.P.R., as did his brother, Gerald Balfour, and sister, Eleanor Sidgwick. The record shows:
[SIZE=+0]"In 1887, Council Members and Honorary Members of the SPR included a past Prime Minister (William Gladstone)…and a future Prime Minister (Arthur Balfour); …2 bishops; and Tennyson and Ruskin, two of the outstanding literary figures of the day;…'Lewis Carroll'…with a surprising number of titled persons." [/SIZE][SIZE=-1](48)[/SIZE]

etc etc etc

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/NIV/occult.htm

~


Theosophical Society

The Theosophical Society is an organization formed in 1875 to advance the spiritual principles and search for Truth known as Theosophy. The original organization, after splits and realignments has (as of 2011)[update] several successors. Theosophy is an active philosophical school today, and through a process of schism has also given rise to other mystical, philosophical and religious beliefs and organizations.[1] wiki





The Order of the Golden Dawn

The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (or, more commonly, the Golden Dawn) was a magical order active in Great Britain during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, which practiced theurgy and spiritual development. It has been one of the largest single influences on 20th-century Western occultism.[1][2]

Concepts of magic and ritual at the center of contemporary traditions, such as Wicca[3][4] and Thelema, were inspired by the Golden Dawn.
The three founders, William Robert Woodman, William Wynn Westcott, and Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers were Freemasons and members of Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia (S.R.I.A.).[5] Westcott appears to have been the initial driving force behind the establishment of the Golden Dawn.

The Golden Dawn system was based on hierarchy and initiation like the Masonic Lodges, however women were admitted on an equal basis with men. The "Golden Dawn" was the first of three Orders, although all three are often collectively referred to as the "Golden Dawn". The First Order taught esoteric philosophy based on the Hermetic Qabalah and personal development through study and awareness of the four Classical Elements as well as the basics of astrology, tarot divination, and geomancy. The Second or "Inner" Order, the Rosae Rubeae et Aureae Crucis (the Ruby Rose and Cross of Gold), taught proper magic, including scrying, astral travel, and alchemy. The Third Order was that of the "Secret Chiefs", who were said to be highly skilled; they supposedly directed the activities of the lower two orders by spirit communication with the Chiefs of the Second Order.



~



CONT.......
[/SIZE]
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
William Gladstone
Arthur Balfour
and Cyrus Scofield (DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY)


Lord Balfour, Zionism and the Illuminati

I was doing some research over the weekend on Lord Arthur Balfour the father of the modern state of Israel. He was highly connected to the Rothschild Illuminati banking family as well as having a background in the occult. This is very interesting because there was a Rothschild banking agent, Jacob Schiff, who was one of the funders for Cyrus Scofield’s study bible which replaced the KJV in most seminaries in the US and promoted John Nelson Darby’s view of futuristic prophecy. According to Darby Jesus will only return when the Jews are in their homeland.

Balfour:




Balfour had connections to the Rothschilds and also the occult:

The S.P.R. is the occult Society for Psychical Research. Before becoming a psychologist in 1890, “James had been trained as a chemist and a physician, so that his evolution from the study of matter to the study of man’s religious longings was throughout supported by science, which was the kind of knowledge his century most admired.” 26. James was, “a leader of the philosophical movement of Pragmatism and of the psychological movement of functionalism…[His father] Building upon the works of Swedenborg, which had been proffered as a revelation from God for a new age of truth and reason in religion, the elder James [Williams father] had constructed a system of his own that seems to have served him as a vision of spiritual life. This philosophy provided the permanent intellectual atmosphere of William’s home life…” 27.

One author states:
“The initial organization was composed mainly of enthusiastic Spiritualists, but at the core was an experienced team of paranormal investigators, the so-called “Sidgwick Group.”

The Sidgwick Group consisted of Henry Sidgwick, Frederic W.H. Myers, Edmund Gurney, Walter Leaf, Lord Raleigh, Arthur Balfour and his sisters Eleanor (who married Sidgwick in 1876) and Evelyn (Lady Raleigh), among others… This informal group had originally been formed in 1874 for the purpose of investigating mediums and Spiritualistic seances….” 27B And They Shall Be As gods

Behold, in November of 1917, as the Russian Rothschilds were on the verge of signing a peace treaty with the Germans, the British Foreign Secretary, a Fabian co-conspirator, and occult-loving buddy of the Rothschilds, Arthur Balfour, writes a letter to Lord Lionel Rothschild asking him to accept his Declaration wherein the Jews could be re-instated into their ancient homeland. In the very next month, the English conquer Jerusalem. Then, just after the War, the Rothschilds set up a Foreign Affairs office in Britain and in the United States, with more to come in other nations, and filled them with Illuminatists under their care and watch…having the job of ratcheting the governments of the world into submission to the Rothschild plan for Globalism. So, you see, the restoration of the Jews to the Holy Land is part and parcel with the establishment of the Rothschild New World Order…because that New Order is intended to be the Biblical Millennium as per a Jewish-occult vision.

Winston Churchill was lord of the British admiralty when the first World War started. Just days before the War began, he, “on his own responsibility, ordered the naval mobilizations which guaranteed complete readiness when war was declared,” and, “In Oct. 1914, when Antwerp was falling, he characteristically rushed in person to organize its defense…” (Britannica, 1970, Vol. 5, page 748). This zeal on behalf of Britain and against the Germans was not conducive to the will of the Rothschilds, wherefore, behold, Churchill was soon replaced as lord of the admiralty (May 1915) by the good buddy of the Rothschilds, Arthur Balfour! So, you see, the Rothschilds had not a few political puppets in the Parliament to make things work their way.
Rothschild and Other Red Things

The Balfour Declaration (1917)
The British Foreign Secretary, Arthur James Balfour, wrote to Jewish leader Lord Rothshild, to assure him that his government supported the ideal of providing a homeland for the Jews. The British hoped thereby to win more Jewish support for the Allies in the First World War. The “Balfour Declaration” became the basis for international support for the founding of the modern state of Israel. The letter was published a week later in The Times of London as reproduced here.

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild:

I have much pleasure in conveying to you. on behalf of His Majesty’s
Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:
His Majesty’s Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge
of the Zionist Federation.

Yours,
Arthur James Balfour

Balfour and the occult:
In 1882, Henry Sidgwick, Frederic Myers, Edmund Gurney, Arthur and Gerald Balfour founded the Society for Psychical Research. Sidgwick who became the first president of the S.P.R. continued in this position for nine years. His prestigious connections and influence at Cambridge drew a number of distinguished persons into the Society, which James Webb speculates fulfilled the function of “Spiritualist church for intellectuals.” Future Prime Minister Arthur Balfour, who was Sidgwick’s ablest student at Cambridge, would serve as president of the S.P.R., as did his brother, Gerald Balfour, and sister, Eleanor Sidgwick. The record shows:

“In 1887, Council Members and Honorary Members of the SPR included a past Prime Minister (William Gladstone)…and a future Prime Minister (Arthur Balfour); …2 bishops; and Tennyson and Ruskin, two of the outstanding literary figures of the day;…’Lewis Carroll’…with a surprising number of titled persons.” (48)

William Gladstone, Prime Minister from 1865-74, called psychical research, “The most important work, which is being done in the world. By far the most important work.” William James, the famous psychologist, philosopher and father of author Henry James, became president of the American S.P.R. in 1885. However, in its industry and operation, “… the driving force of the S.P.R. came very largely from the group of younger Trinity men of the 1870′s mentioned previously (p. 64), as having turned, often with reluctance, towards agnosticism. Among the eleven who were named, six — Sidgwick, Myers, Gurney, the two Balfours, and Walter Leaf became not merely members of the S.P.R., but its principle organizers, its very engine room. Closely linked with them was Sidgwick’s wife, Nora, and one of his former students, Richard Hodgson.” (49)
The Nineteenth Century Occult Revival

The Cambridge Ghost Society and the Society For Psychical Research which the two Anglican theologians Brook Foss Westcott and Fenton Anthony Hort helped create were two of these societies. These societies studied and promoted occult phenomena. The elite English Fabian Society, the English socialists, were another group. The Coefficients Club was created by Beatrice and Sidney Webb who were in the Fabian Socialist movement. The Coficients Club included Bertrand Russell, H.G. Wells and the politician Arthur Balfour.

Cecil Rhodes, an important leader of what is now called the New World Order, organized a secret society in 1891 which apparently included Lord Rothschild of England, a member of the ruling elite. Arthur Balfour and Lord Rothschild were also members of the Apostles Club which included Westcott, Hort, Henry Sidgwick and others of the Society for Psychical Research. Thus, some of the members of the British ruling class – Westcott and Hort and others – were joined in this club by a member of the ruling elite, the small group at the top.

On Councel on National Policy- Aho- Part Three they say “…the plan for the State of Israel was formulated in the secret societies of Great Britain.”

Lord Rothschild was one point of entry for Zionism into the British elites. The English Balfour Declaration – of Arthur Balfour – of November 1917, and the sending of British troops to Palestine gave the Zionist movement an early victory.

The same British elites helped to create dispensationalism within American Christianity, to make that theology which supports Jewish Supremacy and physical, unsaved Jews, into a Christian Zionist movement to further the cause of Zionism.

So the promotion of the occult within the late 19th century British elites was just a part of a broader effort in the 20th century by the same elites, or their sons, to create an American counterculture to weaken Christianity and the family.http://newageoccult.blogspot.com/2007/10/19th-century-english-occult-revival-and.html

Balfour Theosophy connection:
Arthur Balfour’s brother, Gerald, was also the brother-in-law of Emily Lutyens, a disciple of Theosophist Annie Besant and foster-mother of Jiddu Krishnamurti, who was thought to be Lord Maitreya, the World Teacher of the new age.

“Lady Emily Lutyens, the wife of the architect, is interesting in this context. Before joining the Theosophical Society she had interested herself in state-regulated prostitution, and toyed with the notion of Women’s Suffrage. Her sister, Constance, went the whole way, was jailed and forcibly fed. Converted by Mrs. Besant, Emily became for ten years the devoted “foster-mother” and adherent of Krishnamurti. . . even among the highest reaches of society the crisis of consciousness made itself felt. The supernatural was no stranger to the family of Emily Lutyens.

“She herself had been born Emily Lytton, the granddaughter of the occultist Bulwer Lytton, and was the sister-in-law of Gerald Balfour, who with his brother Arthur became president of the Society for Psychical Research. The Balfours’ sister, Nora, married Henry Sidgwick, whose own sister, Mary, became the wife of Edward White Benson, and the mother of Robert Hugh. Within this family connection, it is quite natural to find at least one devoted Theosophist.” (25)……….

In its early stages, the S.P.R. held séances in the townhouse of Arthur Balfour of which his sister Eleanor was the principle organizer. Various mediums of reputation were investigated with the purpose of ruling out charlatans and determining if entities from the spirit realm or deceased persons did in fact communicate with the living. In 1884, Madame H.P. Blavatsky, founder of the Theosophical Society, was graciously interviewed by a committee of the S.P.R. Although Richard Hodgson later would report “the tangle of fraud, intrigue and credulity” associated with her work in India, the SPR was at first –

“…considerably impressed by the evidence of Mme Blavatsky and her friends, and in a report, circulated within the Society but not published, declared: ‘On the whole (though with some serious reserves) it seems undeniable that there is a prima facie case for some part at least of the claim made.’” (52)………

In 1896, Frederic Myers joined the Synthetic Society, founded by Arthur Balfour and modeled upon the famous Metaphysical Society. The Synthetic Society was devoted, not to mere discussion of religious and philosophical questions, but to “contribute towards a working philosophy of religious belief.”
The Nineteenth Century Occult Revival

Balfour was also a Fabian Socialist:
In 1894, the Fabian Society designated a large bequest to found the London School of Economics and Political Science. Philosopher Bertrand Russell served on the Administration Committee while Arthur Balfour contributed £2000 and also collaborated with Sidney Webb to introduce legislation in Parliament which would give the school university status. H.G. Wells, who had recently joined the Fabians, was “branching out into speculations about a new social order which naturally interested the Webbs.” (67)
The Nineteenth Century Occult Revival


Lord Balfour, Zionism and the Illuminati | Truthspeaker’s Weblog

~

SHUT UP ZONE.

YOU'RE JUST A CONSPIRACY THEORIST.
AND ANYWAYS...WHY DO WE CARE? we'll be GONE in the FANTASY RAPTURE WESCOTT/HORT/SCOFIELD AND BALFOUR CONCOCTED.

plus we LIKE the CHARISMATICC MOVEMENT THE OCCULTISTS GAVE US....

WHO CARES!?!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
It isnt just cessationists that can see this apostacy for what it is. I suggest you read their prophecies and see for yourself. There is a trail of sorrow and broken families following these ministries. Especially the warefare ones. Totally unbiblical. Prophets are looked at as amazing if they cn keep a 60% success rate even tho they are vague, and most are not even tested by their followers. Anyone who thinks that a gift has to be educated and formed in a person doesnt understand what a gift is. And couldnt easily twist enough scripture to sell that. To educate and train a gift is merely educating and training a person to play the role of a prophet...like any kind of trade....but this is not a true prophet, and just becuase it is supernatural doesnt mean a thing.

hey Abiding:
you might need this:




talking about people's sacred charismatic cow like that will land you in a HEAP of trouble.

zone
 
A

Abiding

Guest
how i did it i dont know but i wrote my above responce in the wrong room...weird i know
 
A

Abiding

Guest
well last i knew i was reading a post defending the latterday prophet stuff and how it got here who knows...who cares...im a newbie
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
well last i knew i was reading a post defending the latterday prophet stuff and how it got here who knows...who cares...im a newbie
IT'S ALL THE SAME PEOPLE.

nothing is just happening on the sidelines for no reason.

the Latter Rain people are part of a far bigger system (hidden....for now)