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Thread: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by wakeup View Post
    You have twisted the scripture where is underlined,but why?
    Your doctrine has been established,yes you are speaking of your own.
    One can not contradict scriptures and survive,it will fall apart.

    We none of us are perfect in our understanding and on earth will only know in part, but if people cannot understand the basic requirement of what a person must believe to inherit eternal life they willl know little of anything that really matters

    If they cannot be entrusted with knowing and accepting the fundamerntal belief of Christianity, how will they be entrusted with much else?

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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by phil36 View Post
    There is no questions marks about the truth:

    'Before Abraham was, I AM' Jesus was speaking directly to Jews who He knew that knew what he was saying. He is YHWH. I AM who I AM.God is speaking; he was before abraham.

    There is nothing greater to confess lthat Jesus ios the Son of God, like the Apostle My Lord My God.
    My Lord(Jesus) my God (the father)
    Will you wakeup confess that Jesus is ' My Lord and My God' the great I AM?
    How do you say the Lords prayer? Our FATHER IN HEAVEN---- In Jesus name amen.
    Even the demons can say Jesus is the son of God.... are we to be just like them? or will we also identify with scripture that Jesus is 'My Lord and My God, The I AM.
    rev.19:10.The angel said to john,Worship God. rev22:9 the angel said worship God.
    And before you start rambling on about a philosophical use of the wrod 'word' John clearly identifies Jesus as being that word, a bieng not a thought!
    He is a living word,He creates, His word in us gives everlasting life.
    So will you believe just as the demons.. or will you believe Jesus is God?
    I believe what God has inspired Peter, thou art the son of God.
    That way i can not go wrong.

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    Senior Member zone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by livingbygrace View Post
    From where do you get your spiritual authority to demand what is not demanded in the Bible for a person to have eternal life?

    Will you answer this? Or will you deflect, deflect, deflect, or ignore
    ANSWER:
    i neither have the ability nor the will to demand ANYTHING of you.
    you make your own choices.

    its you who 'demands' we recognize Jesus as the Son of God, and you even go further and say He is not God.

    call him the Son if you want to. deny His Eternal Deity if you want to.
    why do keep asking those who believe Jesus is God to prove He isn't?

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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by phil36 View Post
    Hi LBG,

    Why don't yoo look for yourself for a sermon, there are plenty of Baptist churches online. Plus, you only single out Baptists because I go to a Baptist Church..which really just shows your motives??

    but since you won't stop harping on about it I will give you one (there are many if you look )

    What is the doctrine of the Trinity? - Desiring God (this is in written form about the trinity)

    Jesus Is the Christ the Son of God - Desiring God (This is a video on the diety of Christ he is God)

    Now, lets get to point of the issue you raise. You say that where does it say that you have to believve Jesus is God? Well, thats a bit of a stupid question really, because if you believe in someone you believe who they are. You have been given ample evidence from scripture by numerous people on here at CC. but the plain simple fact is you cannot see the truth. and therefore deny the truth!

    A new christian does not need to know all the facts, it is at this point you confuse the argument, let me explain.

    When a wealthy couple have a baby, the baby does not need to know at that stage that he will one day own the mansion and take over the family business, but the family nurture him over time into this.

    Your problem is, that a) your still an infant or b) you are blind to God's truth.

    If you believe in Jesus Christ you will come to believe all of what He said..including what He said about Himself. You unfortunatley do not!
    cool analogy phil.

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    Senior Member zone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by wakeup View Post
    If one eccept babylon the great as the supreme teacher,well this is the result lbgont cast your pearls to---they will just stamp on it ,turn and gore you. May God grant you more knowledge.
    too bad Babylon The Great is Jerusalem and her children in bondage (Sinai)...not Christ's Church. unbelieving israel who rejected Emmanuel.

    you've been shown that (just READ it) over and over but enjoy instead prophesying against the church.

    WHAT'S IRONIC IS EXACTLY what Phil posted on: those who DENY what Jesus said about Himself (I AM) are the pharisees - they knew there is only One God....He made himself equal.

    so i wonder who it is that this applies to: If one eccept babylon the great as the supreme teacherwell this is the result

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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by phil36 View Post
    So now your going from not believing that Jesus is God, to slagging of churches?

    I Have seen the greatest miracles that one would wish for have you? Lost souls coming to believe in Jesus Christ their Lord and Saviour
    what phil?
    no liver shivers?
    zone

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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by zone View Post
    ANSWER:
    i neither have the ability nor the will to demand ANYTHING of you.
    you make your own choices.

    its you who 'demands' we recognize Jesus as the Son of God, and you even go further and say He is not God.

    call him the Son if you want to. deny His Eternal Deity if you want to.
    why do keep asking those who believe Jesus is God to prove He isn't?
    I am afraid your above comments show that being driven by a desire for 'head theology' can often leave the more important things undone. As I have said many times, you have no qualms about not being honest concerning others in your posts.

    Didn't your theologians and scholars teach you to be honest concerning others?

    Head theology is nothing. It is the heart that counts. You condemn people in your heart who stand on the plain and continuous words of Christ as the requirement of belief in him for a person to have everlasting life

    As I have told you many times. No-one being led of the Holy Spirit could ever do that. Therefore you are being led of yourself.

    Jesus was clear as to what that meant

    Such a person is seeking honour for themselves. A common denominator among you and your colleagues who demand extra biblical beliefs for salvation.

    I guess your scholars and theologians have not taught you that such an attitude is very wrong

  8. #168
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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    no LBG I don't think anyone condemns you. most just see you as a kid throwing a temper tantrum because he can't reach the cookie jar. Eventually we all hope and pray you will out grow it and realize the truth about Jesus our Lord and Savior.

    God is slow to anger and quick to forgive. why do people who call themselves Christians not wake up and start each day anew instead of letting the baggage of yesterday mess up a perfectly wonderful day God have given us? Why don't people forgive each other? I know I probably hurt people feelings sometimes but I figured they forgive me, since I forgave them and that is what Jesus told us to do with our brethren. If they don't forgive me then they have bigger issues than what I might have done to offend them. we can't control other people's actions, words or thoughts, but we can control our own and live in a manner that Jesus taught us.

    Live from the heart, abiding in God's love with wisdom learned through the hearing of His Word spoken daily into our lives. Through repentance and acknowledgement that we wretched sinners are undeserving through anything we can do to merit salvation but through faith trusting in God and His promise of unconditional love. why put conditions on it? why ask men and seek their approval when the only one who is important is GOD?

    If you are feeling condemned then lay it on the altar of God and TRUST that God will take care of it. If it still bugs you perhaps it is conviction of the Holy Spirit. Either way the answer is GOD and personal Bible study. NOT Contention and strife.

    I'm going to play with the kids. see you guys around.

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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by AnandaHya View Post
    no LBG I don't think anyone condemns you. most just see you as a kid throwing a temper tantrum because he can't reach the cookie jar. Eventually we all hope and pray you will out grow it and realize the truth about Jesus our Lord and Savior.

    God is slow to anger and quick to forgive. why do people who call themselves Christians not wake up and start each day anew instead of letting the baggage of yesterday mess up a perfectly wonderful day God have given us? Why don't people forgive each other? I know I probably hurt people feelings sometimes but I figured they forgive me, since I forgave them and that is what Jesus told us to do with our brethren. If they don't forgive me then they have bigger issues than what I might have done to offend them. we can't control other people's actions, words or thoughts, but we can control our own and live in a manner that Jesus taught us.

    Live from the heart, abiding in God's love with wisdom learned through the hearing of His Word spoken daily into our lives. Through repentance and acknowledgement that we wretched sinners are undeserving through anything we can do to merit salvation but through faith trusting in God and His promise of unconditional love. why put conditions on it? why ask men and seek their approval when the only one who is important is GOD?

    If you are feeling condemned then lay it on the altar of God and TRUST that God will take care of it. If it still bugs you perhaps it is conviction of the Holy Spirit. Either way the answer is GOD and personal Bible study. NOT Contention and strife.

    I'm going to play with the kids. see you guys around.
    Thank you Anandya for your thoughtful and loving comments. I am most fortunate to have someone who can give me such Godly wisdom as you.

    I know there is no point in discussing this subject with you as you (along with some others) shy away from answering questions put to you on it.

    It does suprise me somewhat though as when people do not answer the questions you put to them you responmd in a mocking and derisory tone. But I kinow you mean it in love

    I don't feel in myself condemned because I know my salvation stands on what is actually required according to scripture. But of course there are some who in their hearts condemn others for not accepting their extra biblical beliefs, but we know they cannot be being led of the Holy Spirit in their opinions don't we.


    Why do people who call themselves Christians not start each day anew instead of the baggage of yesterday mess up a perfectly wonderful day God has given us?

    I don't know, maybe you should ask them. Maybe it is because they are being led of impure motives. After all, if people keep criticising others for accepting the plain and continuous words of Christ he spoke while he walked this earth, there must be somethnig radically wrong t there wouldn't you agree?.

    I completely agree, we should not seek the approval of man, nor should we try and impress others with a false Godly attitude say.

    I am glad to see you spending time with your children. This website can become addictive. If we have a family we always need to ensure they are put first.

    Thank you once again for your genuine concern. Some do not genuinely in their hearts feel what they correspond to others, but wish to just put on a Godly act which is not matched by their words, I am sure you would consider such a thing hypocritical. So thank you once again for your comments driven by nothing but love for me
    Last edited by livingbygrace; June 6th, 2011 at 05:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by wakeup View Post
    You have twisted the scripture where is underlined,but why?
    Your doctrine has been established,yes you are speaking of your own.
    One can not contradict scriptures and survive,it will fall apart.
    God manifest in the flesh,does not mean God became flesh.
    If the holy spirit manifest in you, it does not mean you are the holy spirit.

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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by wakeup View Post
    God manifest in the flesh,does not mean God became flesh.
    If the holy spirit manifest in you, it does not mean you are the holy spirit.
    And herein lies the disagreement concerning this subject

    Most Trintarians just say that God is manifest in Christ, therefore Christ is God

    But it is the Holy Spirit who exhibits in Christ, making the son as one
    with the Father. So we can say that the Father is in the Son via the Holy Spirit
    We know that the fulness of the Godhead bodily dwells in the son(via the spirit) but this does not make the son the Father and the Father is the one true God.

    So as do they we believe that the Father is fully in the son(but we or I anyway say via the spirit) but the son is the son, not the one true God, and the Father is greater than the son

    I do wonder if most on cc do not get involved in this discussion because they know in reality the differences are not as huge as some like to make them out to be
    Or maybe they don't

    Either way we are the ones who do not condemn others, so I guess we have just a bit more love, mercy and compassion in our hearts than they have in theirs

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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Hi there MaggieMye

    I must be curious. How would you identify and recognise an apostle, a prophet, an evangelist, a pastor, and a teacher.
    If five people were to come in contact with you. Each being one of the five different gifts. Without he/she identifying him or herself as their gift but merely by their first name. And without asking them what gift they have. Able to ask them anything else. What characteristics would you adhere to each gift making evident which is which.

  13. #173
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    Default THE GOD OF ME in John 20:28

    Quote Originally Posted by phil36 View Post
    This is for you and LBG


    And If you are a christian of course you will agree that Jesus is the son of God..thats silly to say other wise.. however my point is did not one of them say MY LORD and MY GOD, Now if this was untrue don't you think he would have been sternly rebuked???
    If Thomas actually called Jesus THE GOD OF ME, we should not automatically think that Thomas was calling Jesus the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In the Hebraic tradition, the words for "GOD" are many times used of others than the Most High in a sense other than meaning the MIGHT of the universe. Jesus is indeed the might of the Christian, but this does not mean that we should use the spirit of human imagination so as to imagine and assume that Jesus is the MIGHT of the universe, and then, as in the case of trinitarians, to further imagine and assume that "GOD" in John 20:28 means, not the triune God, but rather one person of the triune God.

    On the other hand, due to the double usage of the definite article in the verse, there are some scholars who propose that Jesus first called Jesus THE LORD OF ME, and then addressed the Father as THE GOD OF ME. Further support of this view is found in the fact that there is no custom in the New Testament of referring to Jesus as THE GOD OF ME, or as THE GOD OF US.

    Regardless, John's summation did not assume the claim that Thomas was saying Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but rather that he is son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. -- John 20:31.

    In the above scripture, does "God" mean one person, or does it mean three persons? Throughout the New Testament, the singular "God" ALWAYS means one person, and when applied to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, it ALWAYS means the God and Father of Jesus, the one whom Jesus addressed as "the only true God", who had sent Jesus. -- Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-20; John 17:1,3; Acts 3:13-26; Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3, Hebrews 1:1,2.

    The default reasoning should not be to assume and imagination that any of the very, very few applications of the word GOD to Jesus means that Jesus is the Most High, but rather, in keeping with Hebraic usage, that Jesus is being spoken of in the sense of the MIGHT and POWER that only MIGHT of the universe has given to Jesus.

    I have written more on this at:
    http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/339.html
    Hebraic Usage of the Titles for “God”


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    Senior Member phil36's Avatar
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    Default Re: THE GOD OF ME in John 20:28

    Quote Originally Posted by ResLight View Post
    If Thomas actually called Jesus THE GOD OF ME, 'First of he did not call Jesus the God of me' your whole argument is based on this statement therefore falls at the first hurdle, he said my Lord and My God, therefore Jesus is his Lord and God, not as you infer, My God of me!


    we should not automatically think that Thomas was calling Jesus the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In the Hebraic tradition,

    The testimony of scripture and that fact that Jesus Himself said He was YHWH is testimony enough! Since you seem to be a 'Hebraic specialist' you will recall the revelation of this name to moses? Abraham did not have it..or did he?


    the words for "GOD" are many times used of others than the Most High in a sense other than meaning the MIGHT of the universe. Jesus is indeed the might of the Christian, As I say Jesus used specific words to say who He was..YHWH was enough to infuriate the people and tell us he is God, Yes the term 'god' not 'God' In scripture can mean other gods that try and steal the glory of God!


    Can you clarify what exactly you mean by MIGHT of the universe in regards to Christ.


    but this does not mean that we should use the spirit of human imagination so as to imagine and assume that Jesus is the MIGHT of the universe, and then, as in the case of trinitarians, to further imagine and assume that "GOD" in John 20:28 means, not the triune God, but rather one person of the triune God.

    Your not very clear on what you are actually trying to say here... again can you explain what you mean by MIGHT.

    I think as I have stated above it is very easy to Understand, my Lord and My God. and still you have not mentioned why Jesus is not a person of the Triune God.




    On the other hand, due to the double usage of the definite article in the verse, there are some scholars who propose that Jesus first called Jesus THE LORD OF ME, and then addressed the Father as THE GOD OF ME. Further support of this view is found in the fact that there is no custom in the New Testament of referring to Jesus as THE GOD OF ME, or as THE GOD OF US.

    Jesus called Jesus THE LORD OF ME.... this is total nonsense and does not even make any sense.

    Refering to your double Definite Article, a definite article point s the noun



    Regardless, John's summation did not assume the claim that Thomas was saying Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but rather that he is son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. -- John 20:31.

    In the above scripture, does "God" mean one person, or does it mean three persons? Throughout the New Testament, the singular "God" ALWAYS means one person, and when applied to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, it ALWAYS means the God and Father of Jesus, the one whom Jesus addressed as "the only true God", who had sent Jesus. -- Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-20; John 17:1,3; Acts 3:13-26; Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3, Hebrews 1:1,2.

    The default reasoning should not be to assume and imagination that any of the very, very few applications of the word GOD to Jesus means that Jesus is the Most High, but rather, in keeping with Hebraic usage, that Jesus is being spoken of in the sense of the MIGHT and POWER that only MIGHT of the universe has given to Jesus.

    I have written more on this at:
    John 20:28 – My Lord and My God
    Hebraic Usage of the Titles for “God”


    Infact I had to stop commenting on your post, for one simple reason.

    You are using the verse in john :

    John 20:28

    New International Version (NIV)


    28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Now please point out to us all the Definite Articles in the 3 clauses. many thanks, infact point out as you say the 'double usage of the definite article'

    once you have done this I can answer you!
    Soli Deo Gloria

    "After all, there is a Protestantism still worth contending for, there is a Calvinism still worth proclaiming, and a gospel well worth dying for" - C H Spurgeon



    • "What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

  15. #175
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    Default Re: Fruit of the Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by zone View Post
    Jesus was not speaking about true Christians at all in that passage.
    no, it's the pretenders He is referring to, and they know exactly what they are doing.
    Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.
    Matthew 7:16 By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
    Matthew 7:17 Even so, every good tree brings forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
    Matthew 7:18 A good tree can't bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Matthew 7:19 Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire.
    Matthew 7:20 Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
    Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    Matthew 7:22 Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy by your name, by your name cast out demons, and by your name do many mighty works?'
    Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity [that which is illegal, unauthorized].' '

    Jesus actually speaks of both, since he speaks also of a tree that bears good fruit. The point is that the JW (and some others) seem to think that this refers to organizations, denominations, etc., as such, and classify all people accordingly. I can remember on more than one occasion, some individuals of the JWs have alluded to this and similar scriptures, such as Matthew 13:8 and John 15:5,8, as though Jesus were talking about their organization; more than one have stated the fruit to be the many people to have joined with their organization; this latter view simply ignores that the fruit is either good fruit, the fruit of the spirit, or it is bad fruit, produced by the works of the flesh. Not only this, they fail to recognize that Jesus was speaking of those who would not rule with him in the kingdom, as opposed to those who would rule with him in the kingdom. The latter do the will of the Father and produce good fruit, they do that which is good, while the rest whose works are not approved do not receive the kingdom, but they are still under the judgment of the age to come.

    In other words, Jesus is speaking of those who will "enter into the kingdom", who will be rulers with him in the kingdom. Jesus states that there will many who will be doing great works in his name, which has been happening now for about 2,000 years, but that he does not recognize them. He speaks of the age to come when Yahweh will come to judge the world in righteousness by means of the one whom he has ordained. -- Psalm 96; Psalm 98; Acts 17:31.

    While there is a judgment amongst those who in this present age who become new creatures in Christ, sons of God (2 Thessalonians 1:4,5; 1 Peter 4:17), there is the coming judgment day of the world, for God "has appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness" -- "the day of judgment and perdition [destruction] of ungodly men; but . . . do not be ignorant of this one thing, that one day with Yahweh is as a thousand years." -- Acts 17:31; 2 Peter 3:7,8; Psalm 90:4.

    It is in that "In that day," the 1,000-year reign of Messiah, when Yahweh will judge mankind through Jesus, that "the earth will be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea." Then it will be said: "Look, this is our God. We have waited for him, and he will save us . . . . We will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." -- Isaiah 11:9,10; 25:6-9; 40:5; 52:10: Jeremiah 31:34; Habakkuk 2:14.

    It will be "in that day" that Jesus "will judge the living and the dead at (during) his appearing and his kingdom." "He must reign [in his thousand-year reign] until he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death." -- 2 Timothy 4:1; 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Psalm 72:1-4; Isaiah 11:1-6; 32:1; Jeremiah 23:5,6; Hosea 13:14; Revelation 20:11-15.

    "When the Son of man will come in his glory . . . then he will sit on the throne of his glory: and all nations [the unbelieving heathen - Psalm 46:10; 67; 72:1,11,17; 96:3,10; Isaiah 2:2-4; Ezekiel 37:28; 38:16; 39:7] will be gathered [from hades and death -- Revelation 20:12,13] before him. He will separate them [under the testings of that great judgment day] one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats." Those whom he finds to be righteous, pictured as sheep (those who become sheep in the next age, not Christ's sheep of this present age -- John 10:14-15), will be given everlasting life and will "inherit the kingdom" on earth (the meek will inherit it -- Matthew 5:5), whereas those who will not have proved worthy, pictured as goats, will "go away into everlasting punishment [Greek, kolasin, cutting-off]" in the second death, never to live again. "All the wicked he will destroy." -- Matthew 25:31-46; Psalm 145:20; Revelation 20:9,15; 21:8.

    However, the saints [consecrated ones] -- those who produce the fruit of the spirit before the judgment of the world-- will rule with him in the earth during that 1,000-year judgment day and assist in judging the world, offering to them "the water of life freely." -- Daniel 7:22,27; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Obadiah 21; Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:29,30; Romans 8:16-21; 2 Timothy 2:11,12; Revelation 3:21; 5:9,10; 20:4,6; 22:17.

    The destruction of the wicked is symbolized by their being cast into the "lake of fire," "which is the second death," into "everlasting fire [fire is an apt symbol, not of preservation, but of destruction], prepared for the devil [who is to be destroyed, annihilated -- Hebrews 2:14; Ezekiel 28:19] and his angels" -- Revelation 20:14,15; 21:8; Matthew 25:41.

    Thus, at that time, "in that day" -- in that coming judgment day, Jesus says, there will be many who thought they had been serving Jesus in their former life whom who will come to him, wondering why they had been left out of the kingdom inheirtance, after they had done so many works in his name.

    When Jesus tells them to depart, as given in his prophetic statement, Jesus is not condemning them to eternal destruction (as the JWs teach), but rather he simply tells them that they are not amongst those who, as he said elsewhere, did good (John 5:28,29), so as to raised in the resurrection of life as sons who receive the kingdom. They find themselves in the resurrection of judgment, outside of the kingdom that kingdom which has been given to the sons of God who produce the fruit of the spirit before the regeneration of the world. In telling them to depart, as can be seen from other scriptures, Jesus is telling them to depart into the judgment with the world. Thus, although they will not receive the kingdom that is given to those in the first resurrection, the resurrection of life, if at that time, after they have received an accurate knowledge of truth, they produce the fruit of the spirit they can receive the kingdom, the restored dominion, that had been offered to Adam; there will be no reason in that coming judgment day, however, for anyone to fail to produce fruit of the spirit, except that they do so willfully, for in that new earth righteousness will prevail rather than the corrupt condition that now prevails. It will then be only the willful sinner, who, after having receiving an accurate knowledge of truth, then continues to sin who will be eternally destroyed, since there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

    This has become longer than I intended, but please note that Rutherford rejected the above teaching, and replaced it with his eternal destruction at Armageddon dogma, so what I presented above does not represent what the JWs teach.

    Nevertheless, at the end of the Millennial reign, every one must either have produced the good fruit of the spirit, or the bad fruit of disobedience -- there will be no in between. It will be then that those who prove themselves to be goats will be eternally destroyed in the second death.

    See my study:
    Mankind’s Course to the Day of Judgment

  16. #176
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    Default Re: Fruit of the Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by wakeup View Post
    Please correct me if i am wrong; The JW is a shoot of the seventh day adventist.
    The JWs could be considered as offshoot of the Bible Students; as I posted earlier Rutherford, in effect, rejected the Bible Students movement in order to create a new organization.

    However, the Bible Students movement is not a offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventists; one could say that the movement came out of the Second Adventists movements, but not the Seventh Day Adventists. Neither Russell, Barbour, or as far as I know, any of the Second Adventists who influenced Russell, believed in the Seventh-Day Adventist church or its doctrine.

    See:
    Seventh-Day Adventists (Searches)

  17. #177
    ResLight
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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    [quote=zone;458876]i would like to introduce you to my young brother zack...he (and many others) can help you resolve the issue:

    i would like to introduce you to my young brother zack...he (and many others) can help you resolve the issue:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zackabba
    Jesus, the Word who was with God



    And thus, Jesus, the Word of God, was NOT the only true God, the only true Might, whom he was with before the world of mankind was made. -- John 17:1,3,5.


    Quote:
    Quote: Originally Posted by zackabba
    and the Word who was God (John 1:1)




    Jesus had the quality of deity, the quality of being a mighty one, which he "was" before the beginning of the world of mankind that was made through him (John 1:10), but he was not the only true God who had sent him. -- John 17:1,3,5.

    John emphasized twice that Jesus was with (or towards, in service of) "God" in the beginning, thereby showing that Jesus was NOT the God whom he was with. Jesus showed in John 17:1,3,5 that he was not the only true God whom he was with, thus, rather than force the usage of the word GOD to Jesus as meaning the only true God, one should apply the general Hebraic meaning of might, strength, as one who has received such might and strength from the only true Source of all might and strength, as is done many times in the Old Testament.

    John's words certainly do NOT call for us to use the spirit of human imagination so as imagine and assume the trinitarian dogma upon the verse. Such would mean that one has imagine and assume a lot regarding what John said; the most direct application in keeping the revealing of the holy spirit is simply to apply the Hebraic usage to THEOS as applied to Jesus in a sense that means mighty: the Logos was mighty, but he was not the only true MIGHT of the universe who sent him.

    To "see" trinity in John 1:1,2, one has to calll upon the spirit of human imagination so as to imagine and assume that the first instance of the word "GOD" does not refer to the imagined triune God, but rather to the alleged "first person" of the imagined triune God, and then one has to further call upon the spirit of human imagination so as to imagine and assume that the second isntance of "GOD' does not mean the imagined triune God, but rather that it refers to the alleged 'second person' of the imagined triune God. In effect, one ends up with circular reasoning that what is imagined and assumed is correct, and because we can imagine and assume such upon what John wrote, then we have proof in all that we have imagined and assumed that Jesus is a person of the only true Most High.

    On the other hand, simply applying spiritual revealing with spiritual revealing as revealed in the scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:10-12), we find that the Hebrews did use the words for GOD of others -- including things -- without meaning that they were the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    The Greek word for God is usually transliterated as "theos", and forms of this word are used twice in John 1:1. "Theos", in the New Testament, is used to translate forms of the Hebrew word that is often transliterated as "EL"; it should be apparent that the Hebrew writers of the New Testament were using THEOS in the same manner, and with same meaning, as the Hebrew writers of the Old Testament.


    However, as I stated, there is a scriptural Hebraic tradition that allows the usage of the words for "God" in a more general sense of might, power, authority, etc. Most translations of the Bible into English as well as other languages recognize this usage. We can use the most popular English translation — the King James Version — to illustrate such usage. This can be demonstrated in such verses where the KJV renders the word for "God" (forms of EL and ELOHIM in the Hebrew) so as to denote strength, power, might, rulership, etc., such as in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). If one were to substitute "false god" in many of these verses, we would have some absurd statements. This proves that these words are used in a sense other than the only true God, or as "false god."


    If such Hebraic usage is applied to Jesus (who was with the only true God -- John 17:1,3) in John 1:1, we would have "the Word was mighty," and all makes perfect sense without adding all of the imaginations and assumptions that would have to accompany viewing the scripture through the tint of the trinity doctrine. Jesus was indeed a mighty one with the only true MIGHT before the world of mankind was made.


    See my studies:
    The Logos of God Restoration Light Bible Information
    John 1:1 and Trinity Assumptions
    John 1:1-3 – The Logos was Theos

  18. #178
    ResLight
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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by zone View Post
    i would like to introduce you to my young brother zack...he (and many others) can help you resolve the issue:

    http://christianchat.com/newreply.ph...reply&p=458402
    Regarding Isaiah 9:6:

    The prophecy states, as given in the JPS (this is Isaiah 9:5 in the JPS):

    For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom.

    His name is not plural; it is singular. Most translators, having been influenced by the trinitarian bias that would desire for Jesus to be referred to as "Mighty God" in this verse, have rendered the verse, not as a singular "name", but as a series of names (plural). As a singular name, this name is a sentence, not a series of names to be applied to the Messiah. The child is given to us from Yahweh, as one can see from Isaiah 9:7, for it is the zeal of Yahweh/Ehyeh (Exodus 3:14,15), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is spoken of as one who performing what is being spoken of.

    Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts. -- Isaiah 9:7, World English.

    That singular name is usually transliterated as Pelejoezelgibborabiaadarshalom. Often such a “name” given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and the application of such a name does not designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. Thus, for instance, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel, which could be read as a series of titles: God, The God, Israel, we realize that this is not what Jacob meant by this. Rather, we understand that he was not saying that the altar was “God,” or that the altar was “the God,” nor that the altar was Israel, but rather that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob’s (Israel’s) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: “God is the God of Israel,” or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: “Powerful is the God of Israel.” Likewise in Isaiah 9:6, since it is directly stated in the singular as a name, not plural, as “names”, we believe it more correctly to be understood as describing Yahweh, not the Messiah who comes in the name of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: “Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.” From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the God and Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

    Nevertheless, as I have shown from my earlier posts, even if Isaiah 9:6 should be viewed as a series of titles describing the Messiah himself, and even if JESUS is called MIGHTY GOD, it still does not mean that Jesus is Yahweh, who Peter stated raised Jesus as a prophet like Moses. (Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-20; Acts 3:13-26) The same Hebrew phrase is used also in Ezekiel 32:21, although gibbor is plural in this verse, (elei gibborim) to accommodate the fact that more than one is being spoken of. In this verse, so far I have seen any English translation that renders the Hebrew word EL as “God”, or "gods", but rather with its general meaning of “might”, “power”, “strong”, etc. The King James Version renders the Hebrew phrase (two Hebrew words) in Jeremiah by using five English words: “The strong among the mighty”. In other words, the Hebrew word for "God" is rendered as "STRONG", in keeping with the basic meaning of the Hebrew word for "GOD". Thus, if the phrase EL GIBBOR in Isaiah 9:6 is a title for Jesus, it could also be understood there as meaning a strong one among the mighty.

    There is definitely nothing in Isaiah 9:6 about three persons in one God. Like all of the other scriptures presented to allege support for the trinity, the trinity idea has to be imagined, assumptions have to be formulated based on what is imagined, and then those assumptions have to be added to, and read into, what is stated.

    See my studies:
    Trinity in the Bible?: July 2008
    Isaiah 9:6 – The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father

  19. #179
    ResLight
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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Quote Originally Posted by ResLight View Post
    In this verse, so far I have seen any English translation that renders the Hebrew word EL as “God”, or "gods
    The above should have read:

    In this verse, so far I have NOT seen any English translation that renders the Hebrew word EL as “God”, or "gods

  20. #180
    Senior Member phil36's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students

    Reslight.

    The word 'El' it another word for god. Infact Abraham Knew God as El shaddai, wich translates to God Almighty..you have read Genesis havent you? El is the NOUN and shaddai etc are the adjectives.

    the name YHWH was not given until the exodus were God gave it to Moses, as God Himself said Abrhama etc Knew me as God Almighty.. Exodus! I won't give you the ch or verse for since this is something you claim isn't you should be able to prove this, won't you?

    This does not mean another God, it os God progressively teling His people who he is.



    I think you need to learn to read. It also shows that what yolu write is absolute nonsense. Your making it up as yyou go along.


    You still havent answered my post above. were you make a great claim.. about a double usage of the Definite Article in John:

    28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Now since you made tyhe claim show us where the double usuage of the definite article is in the above clause!
    Soli Deo Gloria

    "After all, there is a Protestantism still worth contending for, there is a Calvinism still worth proclaiming, and a gospel well worth dying for" - C H Spurgeon



    • "What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

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