GENESIS 12:1-3 + Church

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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#1
Genesis 12:1-3 can be said to be key to understanding 'church' as the 'people of God'.



1Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."


  • What do these verses tell us about the nature of Church?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#2
Genesis 12:1-3 can be said to be key to understanding 'church' as the 'people of God'.



1Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."


  • What do these verses tell us about the nature of Church?
The only aspect of the Church this passage has is the final aspect. "In you shall all the nations of the earth (the church) be blessed.

All other aspects of this passage refers to the seed of Abraham, Also known as Israel. In which the messiah, or promised one would come, WHich would allow all nations of the earth to be blessed. Or the church.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#3
The only aspect of the Church this passage has is the final aspect. "In you shall all the nations of the earth (the church) be blessed.

All other aspects of this passage refers to the seed of Abraham, Also known as Israel. In which the messiah, or promised one would come, WHich would allow all nations of the earth to be blessed. Or the church.

Thats not quite true eternally-grateful:

In the NT who are Abrahams true children, is it not those of Faith? therefore those who have Faith in Christ are the true children of Abraham, and the nations will be be blessed through his offspring.

Christ is the seed of Abraham, Christ is the one Abraham looked forward too, and we are by grace through Faith adopted as sons through the work of Christ, therefore we are to be a light a blessing to all.

This is the point that Paul is making in Galatians 3:7-8, when he says “know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, `In you shall all the nations be blessed.'”


The OT is promises made and the NT promises fulfilled. :)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#4
Genesis 12:1-3 can be said to be key to understanding 'church' as the 'people of God'.



1Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."


  • What do these verses tell us about the nature of Church?

hi phil.
i think i'll sit this one out:rolleyes:...but carry on!
love zone.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#5
Thats not quite true eternally-grateful:

In the NT who are Abrahams true children, is it not those of Faith? therefore those who have Faith in Christ are the true children of Abraham, and the nations will be be blessed through his offspring.

This is a stretch. And can not be founded in scripture. Paul makes it clear in romans 11 the "National promises" made the "nation of Israel still stand. Again, the only aspect the church has (including jews who are part of the church) is "all the nations shall be blessed through your seed" All the rest is National promises.


Christ is the seed of Abraham, Christ is the one Abraham looked forward too, and we are by grace through Faith adopted as sons through the work of Christ, therefore we are to be a light a blessing to all.
Yes, And through Christ we, as an outside nation (gentiles) as part of the church are blessed.

This is the point that Paul is making in Galatians 3:7-8, when he says “know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, `In you shall all the nations be blessed.'”

Yes, which fits exactly with what I said.



The OT is promises made and the NT promises fulfilled. :)
The OT promises made to national Israel have yet to be fully fullfilled. And it is not fulfilled with the church. This is where we disagree. Any questions any =one has should have been answered with Hitler. A man who should have ruled the rules. But he cursed Israel, And because of it. God cursed him!. The promises made with national Israel still stand. Even though they are not saved.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[h]

28 Concerning the gospel
they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

As this passage says. One should not think they are wise concerning the mystery. Israel has been blinded now (in part) but one day their blindness will be removed and they will be saved. Yes now they are enemies. They reject the Gospel. But because of the promises made the fathers, they are to be beloved. Do not curse israel. Or as the promise said, You will be cursed also.
 
F

Forgiven66

Guest
#6
I believe that these verses also tell us that we are called out of the world, just as Abraham was call out (II Corinthians 6:17; Hebrews 11:13-16).
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#7
I believe that these verses also tell us that we are called out of the world, just as Abraham was call out (II Corinthians 6:17; Hebrews 11:13-16).

This is very true Forgiven. part of the Eternal promises to Abrahm. as seen in ch 12,15,17.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
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51
#8
Hi Eteranlly-gratefull.

Abrahams seed was ultimatly Christ. This came by way of the Jewish nation Israel, OT History are all types that point to the one true Israel..Christ. That is not to say God does not have a plan for a remnat of Israel. In Abrahams seed all nations are blessed, it is through Christ!

Your argument is based on Dispensational theology that reads the OT into the New rather than correctly reading the OT through the cross!

No concerning your first point:

This is a stretch. And can not be founded in scripture. Paul makes it clear in romans 11 the "National promises" made the "nation of Israel still stand. Again, the only aspect the church has (including jews who are part of the church) is "all the nations shall be blessed through your seed" All the rest is National promises.

To start of with we see that Christ is the true seed :

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. (Galatians 3:16)

For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe (Galatians 3:21-22)

So far Paul is telling us that true righteousness comes by Faith not the Law, lets go back to Abraham:

The Call of Abram

1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.” (Genesis 12)

Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. (Gensis 17:4-6)

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.” (Genesis 17 3-8)


The Covenant with Abraham not only points to the Jewish nation but to all peoles through Abrahams 'seed' , remember what Paul said in Galatians). Kings will come from him, yes they certainly did.. King David and the Davidic covenant, Christ fulfilled this davidic Kingship. so Abrahams promise is fulfilled as far as that is concerned.

Now we come to tha Land, Abrahams seed will inherit a land. God was calling out for himself a people, and this he did through Abraham, then through the jewish nation as a whole, but now, the true 'seed' that Abraham could only look forward to in marval has arrived, Christ Jesus, and In Christ all nations are blessed, as was told to Abraham he would be a Father of NATIONS, not just nation (read genesis above), In Christ this is true, like Abraham God's children are those of Faith and it is counted to them as righteousness! Not throught the law.

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Galatians 3)

So back to the land, first of all we have to look at Exodus were God Shows the world that He indeed is the one true God, by doing mighty works in Egypt to call his people out of Bondage and slavery, and this he does. God takes them to Sinai and makes a covenant with them. Now this covenant promises all sorts including Land. Yet, this Covenant although similar to the Abrahamic Covenant is different, because in the Abrahamic covenant God took on all the obligations (Genesis 15). The Mosaic covenant is based on if you do this, and this, and this and this, you will live in the land.. the warnings and obligations are stipulated, the Hebrews are placed under obligation to keep the Law. Even still the Law was grace, and this covenant was deeply rooted in the Exodus event itself in the mind of the Hebrews. So the Land was only obligation..they could Loose it.!!! We also have to bear in mind that the Law was a school master it was only temporary (see Galations).

This is why Paul can say that the Law covenant does not anull the Abrahamic covenant :

The Law and the Promise

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Now read the following very carefully.

Children of God

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Concerning the OT.

The priests, Kings, Obedience,Temple, Dacidic Kingship -Messianic reign Have all been fulfilled in Christ!

Now that does not resolve the Land issue?

Remember what Paul has already said: 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And all God's people will be called out and when all things are renewed at the end of 'This Age', The 'Age to come' will be the New Jerusalem (The land).

God's people who are heirs according to the promise (Abraham) will inherit the Land!!!! in the Age to come.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#9
Hi Eteranlly-gratefull.

Abrahams seed was ultimatly Christ. This came by way of the Jewish nation Israel, OT History are all types that point to the one true Israel..Christ. That is not to say God does not have a plan for a remnat of Israel. In Abrahams seed all nations are blessed, it is through Christ!

Your argument is based on Dispensational theology that reads the OT into the New rather than correctly reading the OT through the cross!

No concerning your first point:




To start of with we see that Christ is the true seed :

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”meaning one person, who is Christ. (Galatians 3:16)

For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe (Galatians 3:21-22)

So far Paul is telling us that true righteousness comes by Faith not the Law, lets go back to Abraham:

The Call of Abram

1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.” (Genesis 12)

Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. (Gensis 17:4-6)

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.” (Genesis 17 3-8)


The Covenant with Abraham not only points to the Jewish nation but to all peoles through Abrahams 'seed' , remember what Paul said in Galatians). Kings will come from him, yes they certainly did.. King David and the Davidic covenant, Christ fulfilled this davidic Kingship. so Abrahams promise is fulfilled as far as that is concerned.

Now we come to tha Land, Abrahams seed will inherit a land. God was calling out for himself a people, and this he did through Abraham, then through the jewish nation as a whole, but now, the true 'seed' that Abraham could only look forward to in marval has arrived, Christ Jesus, and In Christ all nations are blessed, as was told to Abraham he would be a Father of NATIONS, not just nation (read genesis above), In Christ this is true, like Abraham God's children are those of Faith and it is counted to them as righteousness! Not throught the law.

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Galatians 3)

So back to the land, first of all we have to look at Exodus were God Shows the world that He indeed is the one true God, by doing mighty works in Egypt to call his people out of Bondage and slavery, and this he does. God takes them to Sinai and makes a covenant with them. Now this covenant promises all sorts including Land. Yet, this Covenant although similar to the Abrahamic Covenant is different, because in the Abrahamic covenant God took on all the obligations (Genesis 15). The Mosaic covenant is based on if you do this, and this, and this and this, you will live in the land.. the warnings and obligations are stipulated, the Hebrews are placed under obligation to keep the Law. Even still the Law was grace, and this covenant was deeply rooted in the Exodus event itself in the mind of the Hebrews. So the Land was only obligation..they could Loose it.!!! We also have to bear in mind that the Law was a school master it was only temporary (see Galations).

This is why Paul can say that the Law covenant does not anull the Abrahamic covenant :

The Law and the Promise

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Now read the following very carefully.

Children of God

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Concerning the OT.

The priests, Kings, Obedience,Temple, Dacidic Kingship -Messianic reign Have all been fulfilled in Christ!

Now that does not resolve the Land issue?

Remember what Paul has already said: 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And all God's people will be called out and when all things are renewed at the end of 'This Age', The 'Age to come' will be the New Jerusalem (The land).

God's people who are heirs according to the promise (Abraham) will inherit the Land!!!! in the Age to come.


Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone
 
P

Psalm2713

Guest
#10
I think it totally applies to christians today... God does send us out.... tells us to leave what we have known behind .....and He wants to prosper us, does that include making a nation?... maybe :) a nation of God's servants!!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#11
Hi Eteranlly-gratefull.

Abrahams seed was ultimatly Christ. This came by way of the Jewish nation Israel, OT History are all types that point to the one true Israel..Christ. That is not to say God does not have a plan for a remnat of Israel. In Abrahams seed all nations are blessed, it is through Christ!

Your argument is based on Dispensational theology that reads the OT into the New rather than correctly reading the OT through the cross!

No concerning your first point:




To start of with we see that Christ is the true seed :

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”meaning one person, who is Christ. (Galatians 3:16)

For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe (Galatians 3:21-22)

So far Paul is telling us that true righteousness comes by Faith not the Law, lets go back to Abraham:

The Call of Abram

1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.” (Genesis 12)

Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. (Gensis 17:4-6)

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.” (Genesis 17 3-8)


The Covenant with Abraham not only points to the Jewish nation but to all peoles through Abrahams 'seed' , remember what Paul said in Galatians). Kings will come from him, yes they certainly did.. King David and the Davidic covenant, Christ fulfilled this davidic Kingship. so Abrahams promise is fulfilled as far as that is concerned.

Now we come to tha Land, Abrahams seed will inherit a land. God was calling out for himself a people, and this he did through Abraham, then through the jewish nation as a whole, but now, the true 'seed' that Abraham could only look forward to in marval has arrived, Christ Jesus, and In Christ all nations are blessed, as was told to Abraham he would be a Father of NATIONS, not just nation (read genesis above), In Christ this is true, like Abraham God's children are those of Faith and it is counted to them as righteousness! Not throught the law.

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Galatians 3)

So back to the land, first of all we have to look at Exodus were God Shows the world that He indeed is the one true God, by doing mighty works in Egypt to call his people out of Bondage and slavery, and this he does. God takes them to Sinai and makes a covenant with them. Now this covenant promises all sorts including Land. Yet, this Covenant although similar to the Abrahamic Covenant is different, because in the Abrahamic covenant God took on all the obligations (Genesis 15). The Mosaic covenant is based on if you do this, and this, and this and this, you will live in the land.. the warnings and obligations are stipulated, the Hebrews are placed under obligation to keep the Law. Even still the Law was grace, and this covenant was deeply rooted in the Exodus event itself in the mind of the Hebrews. So the Land was only obligation..they could Loose it.!!! We also have to bear in mind that the Law was a school master it was only temporary (see Galations).

This is why Paul can say that the Law covenant does not anull the Abrahamic covenant :

The Law and the Promise

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Now read the following very carefully.

Children of God

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Concerning the OT.

The priests, Kings, Obedience,Temple, Dacidic Kingship -Messianic reign Have all been fulfilled in Christ!

Now that does not resolve the Land issue?

Remember what Paul has already said: 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And all God's people will be called out and when all things are renewed at the end of 'This Age', The 'Age to come' will be the New Jerusalem (The land).

God's people who are heirs according to the promise (Abraham) will inherit the Land!!!! in the Age to come.
Yeah, We just totally ignore romans 11. God is done with his dealings with Isreal. And non of the promises pertain to them. I guess Paul is a liar. God is a liar and a thief. And heck, while we are at it, lets throw the whole bible out. It is a lie.

Everything you posted showed exactly what I already said. The world will be blessed through your seed (the church) I have not denied that. And you keep proving it. Which of course means nothing because I already agree.

But if your one who believe4s God promises to national Isrtael are null and void, and instead given to the church your wrong.

Israel was told if they obay Gods commands God will protect them. Destroy their enemies. They will live in Peace.

God promises the church if they obay his commands. They still will suffer persecution. Will not live in peace with the world, because the world is their enemy. And may still suffer death (see Peter and most of the Apostles.)

God made specific promises top the NATION of Israel. Those promises are NOT Null and void. And the Church has NOT taken the place of Israel. According to Paul. they are just temporarily put to the head, and Israel is living in unbelief. But when the time of the gentiles (church) is complete, Israel will be restored to her place of promise.

Thanks, But I chose to believe God.


Yes the church gets to partake in many of the blessings, And some of the promises. But this does not make the church replace Israel.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#12
Yeah, We just totally ignore romans 11. God is done with his dealings with Isreal. And non of the promises pertain to them. I guess Paul is a liar. God is a liar and a thief. And heck, while we are at it, lets throw the whole bible out. It is a lie.

Everything you posted showed exactly what I already said. The world will be blessed through your seed (the church) I have not denied that. And you keep proving it. Which of course means nothing because I already agree.

But if your one who believe4s God promises to national Isrtael are null and void, and instead given to the church your wrong.

Israel was told if they obay Gods commands God will protect them. Destroy their enemies. They will live in Peace.

God promises the church if they obay his commands. They still will suffer persecution. Will not live in peace with the world, because the world is their enemy. And may still suffer death (see Peter and most of the Apostles.)

God made specific promises top the NATION of Israel. Those promises are NOT Null and void. And the Church has NOT taken the place of Israel. According to Paul. they are just temporarily put to the head, and Israel is living in unbelief. But when the time of the gentiles (church) is complete, Israel will be restored to her place of promise.

Thanks, But I chose to believe God.

Yes the church gets to partake in many of the blessings, And some of the promises. But this does not make the church replace Israel.

I think you need to read what I said again. I never said that God does not have a plan for a remnant of ethnic Israel.

This is the usual od being confused between the 2 covenants, Th Abrahamic promise/covenant i was not obligationary see Genesis 15. The Mosaic covenant is obligationary!

Paul could not ake it any plainer to understand.

29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3)

No one says that God does not have a plan for a remnant of ethnic Jews.

In Christ we are heirs of the Promise to Abraham, there is neither Jew nor greek.. God is dwelling (tebernacling/temple) with His people , they are blessed through Abrahams seed.

Now regarding your terminology of 'the church does not replace Israel', The church is not a building, but a called out people of God, so therefore all nations are now blessed because of the seed of Abraham, Christ Jesus..

God is dwelling with his people the church are what? priests? temples? God dwells woth his called out people who are in His son, the High Priest, the King, the Passover.. Christ fulfilled the Mosaic covenant he fulfilled the obligations that the people could not do. May all God's called ou people (Genesis 12:1-3) look for to the Age to come.

The OT promises made. The NT promises fulfilled.

And now all men from all nations who are in Christ, are blessed, and are heirs with Christ with an assured inheritance... we await the heavens and new earth..The New Jerusalem ..the land that God promised Abraham.