"Good" Theif on the Cross, Truth? or biblical corruption?

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D

Deadflesh

Guest
#1
"Good" Theif on the Cross, Truth? or biblical corruption?

Lets find out. . .

LUKE 23: 38-43
There was also an inscription over him,“This is the King of the Jews.”


One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."


Ok. Thats nice "Luke" . . .But DID this happen?

Matthew 27:37-44
"And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.” Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.


Mark 15:24
"And the inscription of the charge against him read, “The King of the Jews.” And with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right and one on his left. And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, “Aha! You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself, and come down from the cross!” So also the chief priests with the scribes mocked him to one another, saying, “He saved others; he cannot save himself. Let the Christ, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross that we may see and believe.” Those who were crucified with him also reviled him.


John 19:18
"There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them. "


So we have 3 out of 4 witnesses against there beign a "Good" thief. ALL through out the scriptures it says, that a word is established, only in the mouth of two or more witnesses.



But if he will not hear you, take one or two more with you, so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established” (Matthew 18:16 MKJV).

I am coming to you this third time. In the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established” (2 Corinthians 13:1 MKJV).

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except before two or three witnesses” (1 Timothy 5:19 MKJV).

He who despised Moses' Law died without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses” (Hebrews 10:28 MKJV).


As Nice as that story is, IS it True? Im begining to think No.

There are to many problems with the story.

Also, Do you really think that You can just live your life the way you want to, being wicked, and unrighteous, Not loving God, and then at the last moment just "Beleive" all of the sudden? That actually goes against the gospel. it goes agaisnt the New testement. Its adhering till the End. it isnt doing what you want to and then asking to be with God.

Am I saying that GOD is not mercyful!? NO! HE IS, and im not Jesus, so i dont know what he would do in that Situation...but since GOD never contradicts himself, THIS story, cannot be true


Is your faith in Scripture as being inerrent? Or is your Faith in JESUS CHRIST?

Man has tampered with MANY thigns.

God allowed it. does that completely deny the validity of the Scriptures?

By no means!

However, maybe it will wake some up, as to where thier faith is. Does it lie in the dead letter? Or does it lie is the SPIRIT OF TRUTH who IS the LORD Jesus Christ?

The scriptures, have error. OT AND NT. That does not make them UNTRUE. that does not mena LUKE didnt write Luke, or anythign else. It jsut means in the past few thousand years, SATAN(through man) has Twisted what God made. Satan can only use what is death, becasue LIFE is only in Jesus. But LIFE has the keys to death. And LIFE will burn death forever in fire.

Have faith in JESUS. Nothign else. Seek JESUS no one else. Hear from JESUS. HE WILL guide you into all truth. HE IS THE WORD OF GOD -Jesus bless you.
 
Feb 16, 2011
2,957
24
0
#2
I think you should reconsider the Gospels. I believe you must believe it's all true.
1. The two criminals did talk bad about Jesus
2. One of them repented and said Jesus was innocient

If you believe the Bible you must believe both things happened. You put the Gospels together and believe both parts. They did a sin. Then one of them repented and asked Jesus to remember Him in His Kingdom.
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#3
Do you beleive evil men would have been kept FAR away from translating the gospels? DO you beleive that Satan cant use men to try and pervert what GOD made(like satan did with MAN in the graden, like satan has done with this world) But GOD allows it. Pray about it.

There is NOTHING in scripture that says put your faith in anythign other then JESUS CHRIST. If our faith is in anythign other than THE ROCK. it WILL faulter. Dont put faith, or trust in MAN, not in the tangible, not even in your self, or the gifts you have been given. Put your faith in JESUS ONLY, and PRAY PRAY PRAY.

Also, just becasue someone tampered with thigns, doesnt make scripture any less true, as far as WHO Jesus is, and what he came to do. The WORDS of JESUS is LIFE, the WORDS of JESUS is Spirit. Put your faith in JESUS ONLY.

BOTH thiefs ridiculed Jesus, in MARK, and in LUKE.

Not one. BOTH. 2.

So if we are to belive somthing out of the mouth of TWO or more. then we CAN NOT beleive the story in Luke, otherwise YOU would be doubting Jesus.

Faith in GOD is what pleases God. Not faith in anythign else. not even a GIFT. Jesus bless you.
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#4
oops, that should be

"BOTH thiefs ridiculed Jesus, in MARK, and in MATTHEW"
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#5
"Good" Theif on the Cross, Truth? or biblical corruption?

Lets find out. . .

LUKE 23: 38-43
There was also an inscription over him,“This is the King of the Jews.”


One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."


Ok. Thats nice "Luke" . . .But DID this happen?

Matthew 27:37-44
"And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.” Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.


Mark 15:24
"And the inscription of the charge against him read, “The King of the Jews.” And with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right and one on his left. And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, “Aha! You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself, and come down from the cross!” So also the chief priests with the scribes mocked him to one another, saying, “He saved others; he cannot save himself. Let the Christ, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross that we may see and believe.” Those who were crucified with him also reviled him.


John 19:18
"There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them. "


So we have 3 out of 4 witnesses against there beign a "Good" thief. ALL through out the scriptures it says, that a word is established, only in the mouth of two or more witnesses.



But if he will not hear you, take one or two more with you, so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established” (Matthew 18:16 MKJV).

I am coming to you this third time. In the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established” (2 Corinthians 13:1 MKJV).

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except before two or three witnesses” (1 Timothy 5:19 MKJV).

He who despised Moses' Law died without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses” (Hebrews 10:28 MKJV).


As Nice as that story is, IS it True? Im begining to think No.

There are to many problems with the story.

Also, Do you really think that You can just live your life the way you want to, being wicked, and unrighteous, Not loving God, and then at the last moment just "Beleive" all of the sudden? That actually goes against the gospel. it goes agaisnt the New testement. Its adhering till the End. it isnt doing what you want to and then asking to be with God.

Am I saying that GOD is not mercyful!? NO! HE IS, and im not Jesus, so i dont know what he would do in that Situation...but since GOD never contradicts himself, THIS story, cannot be true


Is your faith in Scripture as being inerrent? Or is your Faith in JESUS CHRIST?

Man has tampered with MANY thigns.

God allowed it. does that completely deny the validity of the Scriptures?

By no means!

However, maybe it will wake some up, as to where thier faith is. Does it lie in the dead letter? Or does it lie is the SPIRIT OF TRUTH who IS the LORD Jesus Christ?

The scriptures, have error. OT AND NT. That does not make them UNTRUE. that does not mena LUKE didnt write Luke, or anythign else. It jsut means in the past few thousand years, SATAN(through man) has Twisted what God made. Satan can only use what is death, becasue LIFE is only in Jesus. But LIFE has the keys to death. And LIFE will burn death forever in fire.

Have faith in JESUS. Nothign else. Seek JESUS no one else. Hear from JESUS. HE WILL guide you into all truth. HE IS THE WORD OF GOD -Jesus bless you.
I don't think I really got what you are trying to say...

...do you think the crucifixion happened in a minute? No, of course not. The thief had plenty of time to change his mind about his attitude towards Jesus.

Now, if these truly are the words of Jesus (which I believe they are), then you're making Him out to be a liar when He said "today you will be with me in Paradise." Whatever he says goes.


This reminds me of the parable of the workers Jesus told, where the workers, no matter when they started working, received the same wages (which would be eternal life).


Likewise, the thief received eternal life because in His heart he believed that Jesus was the Christ, who is Lord and God over all. This is the requirement for salvation. If we say "It takes time," then we start to come under the law once again.



And besides, as you say, the point of the Bible...is to point us to Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

But I haven't found errors in the OT and NT like you have I guess. I haven't seen one that wasn't at most a scribal error.

Grace and Love
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#6
im not arguing. Jsut simply showing somthing. Asking that people read it a few times, and pray about it, as i will continue to do.
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
0
#7
"Good" Theif on the Cross, Truth? or biblical corruption?

Lets find out. . .

LUKE 23: 38-43
There was also an inscription over him,“This is the King of the Jews.”

One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."


Ok. Thats nice "Luke" . . .But DID this happen?

Matthew 27:37-44
"And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.” Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.

Mark 15:24
"And the inscription of the charge against him read, “The King of the Jews.” And with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right and one on his left. And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, “Aha! You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself, and come down from the cross!” So also the chief priests with the scribes mocked him to one another, saying, “He saved others; he cannot save himself. Let the Christ, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross that we may see and believe.” Those who were crucified with him also reviled him.

John 19:18
"There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them. "

So we have 3 out of 4 witnesses against there beign a "Good" thief. ALL through out the scriptures it says, that a word is established, only in the mouth of two or more witnesses.



But if he will not hear you, take one or two more with you, so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established” (Matthew 18:16 MKJV).

I am coming to you this third time. In the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established” (2 Corinthians 13:1 MKJV).

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except before two or three witnesses” (1 Timothy 5:19 MKJV).

He who despised Moses' Law died without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses” (Hebrews 10:28 MKJV).


As Nice as that story is, IS it True? Im begining to think No.

There are to many problems with the story.

Also, Do you really think that You can just live your life the way you want to, being wicked, and unrighteous, Not loving God, and then at the last moment just "Beleive" all of the sudden? That actually goes against the gospel. it goes agaisnt the New testement. Its adhering till the End. it isnt doing what you want to and then asking to be with God.

Am I saying that GOD is not mercyful!? NO! HE IS, and im not Jesus, so i dont know what he would do in that Situation...but since GOD never contradicts himself, THIS story, cannot be true


Is your faith in Scripture as being inerrent? Or is your Faith in JESUS CHRIST?

Man has tampered with MANY thigns.

God allowed it. does that completely deny the validity of the Scriptures?

By no means!

However, maybe it will wake some up, as to where thier faith is. Does it lie in the dead letter? Or does it lie is the SPIRIT OF TRUTH who IS the LORD Jesus Christ?

The scriptures, have error. OT AND NT. That does not make them UNTRUE. that does not mena LUKE didnt write Luke, or anythign else. It jsut means in the past few thousand years, SATAN(through man) has Twisted what God made. Satan can only use what is death, becasue LIFE is only in Jesus. But LIFE has the keys to death. And LIFE will burn death forever in fire.

Have faith in JESUS. Nothign else. Seek JESUS no one else. Hear from JESUS. HE WILL guide you into all truth. HE IS THE WORD OF GOD -Jesus bless you.
Very good observation deadflesh; look at it this way,say there is a car accident and four men saw the accident,and you ask each of them to write about the accident; You will find that the four notes will be different from each other,but it is telling the same occurrence through each own pair of eyes. Now when Jesus spoke to the thief he is obviously not speaking out loud,because it was a private conversation and one of the apostles only happened to hear that conversation,while the others did not picked that up.You can not say that it was a mistake.
 
L

Lad

Guest
#8
Deadflesh, satan is not all powerful he can do ABSOLUTELY nothing without asking God first and God allowing it. God is the master of the universe and rules from the throne over everything. I believe all scripture is infallible and completely of God, i dont believe in contradictions or lies within the texts and i dont believe that satan couldve twisted it because God would not have allowed it :) I believe its certainly possible for people to have a change of heart and realise their mistakes before they die and therefore its well within the realm of possibility that this thief turned from his sins. After all we dont know what Christ said to the robbers at all and maybe he convinced one of his deity but not the other, OR maybe the second thief was just going along with the first ones taunts but his heart wasnt really in it and the sight of an innocent man dying was enough for him to stand up to his cohort.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#9
One thing to consider, Luke means truth!
As to who gave facts correctly, all depends on where one was or how long they were there.
What they heard, or did not hear.
I do not think any lied, but one must consider all in faith in Jesus.
Just as in the gaden when Jesus prayed before being put on the cross.
There are different things spoken to as well.
Ultamatly, the goal is Jesus, this should always be the truth one seeks. :)

In Jesus, God bless.
pickles
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#10
I think you should reconsider the Gospels. I believe you must believe it's all true.
1. The two criminals did talk bad about Jesus
2. One of them repented and said Jesus was innocient

If you believe the Bible you must believe both things happened. You put the Gospels together and believe both parts. They did a sin. Then one of them repented and asked Jesus to remember Him in His Kingdom.
This is the right observation with the right conclusion because it has faith in the Son and acknowledges the inspiration of the scriptures and the mercy of God in relationship to the heart and not in relationship to outward appearance. To bring doubt to Luke's account is to make a provision for unbelief in order to justify a false concept about the greatness of God's eternal salvation.
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
12,312
1,039
113
#12
The Bible says it happened... so it happened...thats all i have to say on it