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A
I need help...my former pretrib addiction has taken much grace and hard work to overcome. Im usually fine, but after a good meal...well. Do you think i should remove myself from the old crowd? Maybe burn my scoffield bible? I find sometimes its a combination of many efforts with prayer that prevails.
Actually i never gave another view any thought till lately. Seems like a few hundred more hours of study are needed. I still am stuck on dan9:27 and mt24 some and others.
Also i admit the reason i never gave any thought to anything but pretrib is that todays geo/political reality lines up with pretrib doctrine. Did that influence anyone else? Its one of my main studies now...hope ill learn some here.
Actually i never gave another view any thought till lately. Seems like a few hundred more hours of study are needed. I still am stuck on dan9:27 and mt24 some and others.
Also i admit the reason i never gave any thought to anything but pretrib is that todays geo/political reality lines up with pretrib doctrine. Did that influence anyone else? Its one of my main studies now...hope ill learn some here.
you're not alone brother....i absolutely love your courage and witness *sob*...love and prayers.
zone.
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
this entire passage is about Jesus, (and describes Titus' destruction which would come later, within that very generation as Jesus decreed, in 70AD).
1
I'd suggest searching for books on Matthew 24 from people who can show you the history and how much of it was fulfilled.
I'm still trying to grasp all the Daniel stuff and the seven weeks stuff.
Since there are preterists out there who are heretical in my view, aka they teach Jesus already came back, I'd feel guilty directing you to specific books. So I guess I'd suggest finding books by folks from that perspective and be real discerning. Some of them are right on and some of them aren't.
I'm still trying to grasp all the Daniel stuff and the seven weeks stuff.
Since there are preterists out there who are heretical in my view, aka they teach Jesus already came back, I'd feel guilty directing you to specific books. So I guess I'd suggest finding books by folks from that perspective and be real discerning. Some of them are right on and some of them aren't.
Just a bit of info... Many Futurists cite references to a late writing (mid-90s AD) of Revelation by John as evidence against any form of Preterism. All other references cite Ireaneus' writing, which had any number of notable erroneous dates. There simply isn't compelling verifiable historical evidence to conclude a mid-60s OR a mid-90s authorship of Revelation.
So... no automatic elimination of Preterist views based on limited references to the later date.
I spent years as a default indoctrinated Pre-Trib/Pre-Mil/Futurist. Now I'm an Amil/Post-Mil/Partial Preterist vehemently opposing anything related to Dispensational error.
So... no automatic elimination of Preterist views based on limited references to the later date.
I spent years as a default indoctrinated Pre-Trib/Pre-Mil/Futurist. Now I'm an Amil/Post-Mil/Partial Preterist vehemently opposing anything related to Dispensational error.
L
you're not alone brother....i absolutely love your courage and witness *sob*...love and prayers.
zone.
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
this entire passage is about Jesus, (and describes Titus' destruction which would come later, within that very generation as Jesus decreed, in 70AD).
A
Yes v.24 is loaded. Im not sure yet why the bold letters. Hmm. Verse 26 finishes week 69 at the crucifiction, and after that the destruction of 70ad. So Isreal has another week. If the rapture idea turns out to be false...very well..wasnt my idea or wish. But v 27 doesnt seem at all to be a reiteration of verse 26. It seems to end a period. Although i know this is in context to Daniels people, it seems to have more in mind , as in v24. If anyone thinks verse 27 is refering to v.26 id appreciate an explaination. Seems to be what Jesus was talking about in Matt 24, and other NT scriptures. Ive heard that some partial preterists believe matt 24 is all about 70ad. Ive never heard the arguement so I aught to read up. I see the first two verses do. But after verse 3 the subject changes to the end of the age. I was just thinking that it wouldnt be weird to have a gap in daniel any more that it has in Isa 61:2 and others. Im fine with cramming in all the neccesary prophecies that belong with ad70. And i can let go of a pretrib rapture for now. But next is the last week of daniel...I hear partial preterists view mt24 referring to ad70 and it just cant.....thats way past crammin
Anyway i think i talked too much already..this is my first time discussing with preterists and such so i hope i learn some things here.
Anyway i think i talked too much already..this is my first time discussing with preterists and such so i hope i learn some things here.
"finishes week 69 at the crucifiction, and after that the destruction of 70ad"
that's not accurate.
Jesus was CUT OFF (killed) in the MIDDLE of the 70th week.
Titus didn't come (the CONSUMMATION) until 70AD but the CURSE against The Pharisees and all who believed and followed them, and Jerusalem was uttered by Jesus DURING His ministry:
here He is pronouncing the Mosaic Covenant WOES (curses) on both Jerusalem and the unbelieving jews, ending the Old Covenant.
Matthew 23
Seven Woes to the Scribes and Pharisees
1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,a and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbib by others. 8But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.c 9And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.d 15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of helle as yourselves.
16“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ 19You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.
23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. 28So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Lament over Jerusalem
37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38See, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
~
Titus and the Roman soldiers carried out this decree in 70AD, exactly as Jesus said here:
36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
a generation being 40 years, the consummation (destruction/judgment) described in Daniel 9 came within 40 years, Jesus died circa 33AD......70-33=37 years.....within that generation.
that doesn't mean everything in Matthew 24 et al is fulfilled: it isn't...there's more to come.
anyways....i'll stay out of it unless you have a question or whatever.
zone.
that's not accurate.
Jesus was CUT OFF (killed) in the MIDDLE of the 70th week.
Titus didn't come (the CONSUMMATION) until 70AD but the CURSE against The Pharisees and all who believed and followed them, and Jerusalem was uttered by Jesus DURING His ministry:
here He is pronouncing the Mosaic Covenant WOES (curses) on both Jerusalem and the unbelieving jews, ending the Old Covenant.
Matthew 23
Seven Woes to the Scribes and Pharisees
1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,a and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbib by others. 8But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.c 9And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.d 15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of helle as yourselves.
16“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ 19You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.
23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. 28So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Lament over Jerusalem
37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38See, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
~
Titus and the Roman soldiers carried out this decree in 70AD, exactly as Jesus said here:
36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
a generation being 40 years, the consummation (destruction/judgment) described in Daniel 9 came within 40 years, Jesus died circa 33AD......70-33=37 years.....within that generation.
that doesn't mean everything in Matthew 24 et al is fulfilled: it isn't...there's more to come.
anyways....i'll stay out of it unless you have a question or whatever.
zone.
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1
Futurists = Folks who believe a majority of eschatology is still to come.
Partial preterists (Some people who believe this call themselves preterists. Kind of a debate over the term.)= Believe most eschatology has been fulfilled minus the return of Jesus.
Preterist/Hyper-preterists (one in the same to some folks) Believe that all eschatology has been fulfilled, Even the second coming of Jesus.
Partial preterists (Some people who believe this call themselves preterists. Kind of a debate over the term.)= Believe most eschatology has been fulfilled minus the return of Jesus.
Preterist/Hyper-preterists (one in the same to some folks) Believe that all eschatology has been fulfilled, Even the second coming of Jesus.
1
Well, I'm not essentially a preterist, I'm A millenial. I used to believe in the dispensational Premillenial view. What changes this was actually when I started to realize through scripture that God deals with His people through covenant.
But the major turning point was that from the time of redemptive history God calls out for Himself a people, This was through Abraham and that promise, cf Galatians 3:29. So now through Christ according to that promise all those in Christ (the seed) are God's called out people, Christ is the true King, who is the blessing to all nations... He fulfilled all the Temple cultis.
There is now in Christ neither JEW nor GREEK, but all are ONE in Christ.
So this dispells the theory of there being two plans of redemption as dispensationalists insist.
It was from this point that I now see Amillinialism as what scripture says regarding eschatology, of course we have to remember echatology is not from the time and space we are in but from the time perspective of the writer, or the event the writer is articulating.
This all relates to the Kingdom of God, for it is this that John the Baptist proclaimed is near and Jesus reiterated this when He started His mission.
The fact that the Kingdom is 'Already --but, Not Yet!
Another major factor is that inscripture with refernce to the future point, it is the Age to come (one age) and that we live in this age.
So thats when I became to see Amillinialism and premillinialism as correct. one major factor to consoder is the fact that the book of revelation was written for the people of John's time, it starts of in typical fashion as any other greek letter, cf the epistles, yet goes into Apocolyptic narrative. So there had to be meaning for a church under persecution, for them and also for all time in Christian history. The Ultimate reality in revelation is that Christ is Victor and no matter what the circumstances here on earth or battles in the spiritual realm (as John got a glimpse) God is in control. Therefore it is a comfort to all those in Christ.
Anyhow, thats why I became Amillenial.
But the major turning point was that from the time of redemptive history God calls out for Himself a people, This was through Abraham and that promise, cf Galatians 3:29. So now through Christ according to that promise all those in Christ (the seed) are God's called out people, Christ is the true King, who is the blessing to all nations... He fulfilled all the Temple cultis.
There is now in Christ neither JEW nor GREEK, but all are ONE in Christ.
So this dispells the theory of there being two plans of redemption as dispensationalists insist.
It was from this point that I now see Amillinialism as what scripture says regarding eschatology, of course we have to remember echatology is not from the time and space we are in but from the time perspective of the writer, or the event the writer is articulating.
This all relates to the Kingdom of God, for it is this that John the Baptist proclaimed is near and Jesus reiterated this when He started His mission.
The fact that the Kingdom is 'Already --but, Not Yet!
Another major factor is that inscripture with refernce to the future point, it is the Age to come (one age) and that we live in this age.
So thats when I became to see Amillinialism and premillinialism as correct. one major factor to consoder is the fact that the book of revelation was written for the people of John's time, it starts of in typical fashion as any other greek letter, cf the epistles, yet goes into Apocolyptic narrative. So there had to be meaning for a church under persecution, for them and also for all time in Christian history. The Ultimate reality in revelation is that Christ is Victor and no matter what the circumstances here on earth or battles in the spiritual realm (as John got a glimpse) God is in control. Therefore it is a comfort to all those in Christ.
Anyhow, thats why I became Amillenial.
partial preterism is true: it just means that futurism is false....it agrees (Reformed Amillennialism) that there will be a tribulation, there will be a personal bad guy (son of perdition) and that there will be wars and rumours of wars etc,and a time of trouble and falling away just before the end.
full preterists (preterists) are heretics because they say The Second Advent happened in 70AD.
full preterists (preterists) are heretics because they say The Second Advent happened in 70AD.
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A
we could start with a discussion of how Jesus has already fulfilled some of the OT prophecies and how history shows that the prophecies are also true from various books of the Bible. I'm not sure where the world is at in terms of Revelations. It is somewhat complicated but a basic framework would be nice.
Start with the first prophecy of Jesus Christ our Savior in Genesis and work forward?
this talks about the coming of the Holy Spirit that is teacher and comforter to all who believe in the name of Jesus. believing in their hearts and confessing with their mouth that Jesus died on the cross for remission of sins.
Start with the first prophecy of Jesus Christ our Savior in Genesis and work forward?
this talks about the coming of the Holy Spirit that is teacher and comforter to all who believe in the name of Jesus. believing in their hearts and confessing with their mouth that Jesus died on the cross for remission of sins.