The Fixed Earth

[quote=eric51;61420]

Originally Posted by Cup-of-Ruin

No need to debate what the bible alllegedly says about the shape of the earth and the movement or lack of it of the earth and other extra-terrestrial bodies.

What the bible says about matters that are not matters of faith is totally IRRELEVANT. Irrelevant! Christian belief is not affected one way or another by such alleged statements because they are not relevant to the message that Christ is our Redeemer and that there is One God. It is for this message of faith, and only this message, that you should respect the bible as the inspired Word of God.

Got it? [I doubt it, but I will be the eternal optimist].

God Bless.

Amen

Just one question Sir? Has God not said that the earth is fixed so it cannot be moved? What I am saying is that He has said this, He has given His word, He has said that the sun and moon are given as lights unto the earth and He places the earth at the centre and the sun in orbit, in motion around a fixed earth! Has He not said that? He has said that and that is what all scientific observation and tests actually confirm; a non-moving earth, and so it is the case. Is it not Faith to believe in what God has said above all the lies and vile corruption of this world, are we supposed to throw truth aside and believe the lie, are we to love the lie and hate the truth? No in faith and in love we are to stand against the whole world if necessary down to the last man and say with our God that the earth is Fixed and it does not move and we are to say that because we believe in the divine nature of holy scripture and it's ability to reveal all truth to us!

Is it not Faith to stand up alone and state that the entire establishment of the world powers are a lie and a fraud? That everything from your highschool textbook to the chiefs of NASA are nothing but lies and a fraud? Why? Because the Bible says so, God has given His word... And do realize how this will affect your faith when you discover that indeed this is the truth, that the stars are not distant suns, that the universe is not billions of light years thick but a mere 1 light day thick at most and the earth, our earth is at the centre.

Put your faith and trust in God and He will lead you into all truth, I see so many pretend christians who at the first sign of trouble will denounce God's word, they will deny him like Peter did, but still forgiven, so why deny Him, did He not say "know the truth and the truth shall set you free", He did, why accept then the lie that our earth is just an insignificant common ball located in an insignificant galaxy on the outskirts of the universe revolving round a sun that is its lifeforce, the sun at the centre! You know what that is, it is sun worship, just modern sun worship, we falsely put the sun in a position of greater importance then God and the earth, that is sun worship. And we even deny what our very own eyes tell us, that the sun rises and sets, we watch it move, but yet we even say it does not move, why because Satan told us so, God said the sun moves, Satan said it does not, who do we believe? Most christians believe Satan and cast God's word down in the mud and hold up a photograph from NASA and their highschool textbook and say 'God is wrong, the earth moves around the sun, because alchemist Sir Isaac Newton had an apple drop on his head and called it 'Gravity'! Well lets see how that stands up in God's holy court, lets see you say that as you stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ Himself, 'but they told me at school', 'but my parents told me', 'I did not even believe my own eyes or what God had said, but instead I put my faith and trust in a silly rumour, a tradition of wicked ungodly men' See how that goes on your judgement day only to find out that it is indeed the truth that the earth is fixed and the sun revolves around the earth and that stars are refrecting water crystals in the firmament dome above.

[quote=Cup-of-Ruin;61384]

Fake photographs from a phony secular propaganda machine that is about as far away from reality as one can get, but I have no doubt that you along with the vast majority will continue to doubt God's word and believe the lies of Satan and you will do so because you cannot understand truth, you actually believe that the Hubble telescope is taking real photgraphs of galaxies billions of light years away,

Of course it is, I've seen it (the telescope in orbit and the galaxies beyond).

you believe it because that is what you were told, you saw it in a magazine and on television and your teachers at school told you it was real

No, my own telescope tells me it's all real.

We find a computer image enhansing device which simulates what NASA believes you would see if you actually could see it!

My digital SLR camera is a computerized "image enhancing device," that's what just about any digital camera is; it records light in 3 wavelengths of light similar to what the eye sees and then reconstructs an image as close as it can to the real eye view. Other photographers use IR filters to make their images appear completely unlike anything the human eye can see. Does that make it "fake"? No, it just means it was recorded in wavelenghts slightly different than what the human eye perceives. The Hubble generally records images in narrowband wavelengths different than what the human eye can see to reveal the actual elemental composition of a nebula, but this is openly stated as "false color." Amateurs with their own telescopes have recreated these false color images using the same filters. Hubble's images of other galaxies are generally done as close to true color as your own digital camera will do (not that the human eye can perceive any color in objects that dim, but our standard SLR cameras can). Once again, amateurs have confirmed this with their own images of the same galaxies.
Amateur Narrowband Eagle Nebula, look familiar?:
http://mcaligiuri.net/M16-cnf.jpg
M51 galaxy amateur shot, look familiar?:
http://www.ricksastro.com/Gallery/hx_m51rgb.jpg

[Grimaldus]

Just a little advice to anyone who would post on this, this guy's trolllin'. Don't bother.

The Hubble telescope is in orbit, I never said it wasn't real, I said that by NASA own addmission and technological understanding of the telescope itself that the 'images' produced by the on-board computer and relayed back to earth are VR images computer enhanced images.

"Photo Release NO: STSc I-PRC94-53 - "Hubble observes a New Saturn Storm" "...the storm was imaged with Hubble's FP Camera 2... The picture is a COMPOSITE of images...to create a 'true colour' rendition of the planet. [Point: Even the photgraphs of close objects can be doctored. There is no limit to what pre-programmed photos can show beyond what can be seen...]

[/quote]

There is no doubt that the computer programmes and VR imaging devices are replicated, anybody could aquire the available technology for themselves and simulate the same images, it is not unlike the amateur photos of 'UFO's, in actual fact it is an aim of NASA to pass on there VR tech and Plantery Camera Simulators to their followers and diciples.

"NGST [New Generation Space Telescope] Mission Simulator (NMS)..pre computed reports that were CREATED..."

"...distributed optics opens a world of possibilities as to how to configure the multiple small mirrors in the [computer programmed] system."

Originally Posted by Cup-of-Ruin

The Hubble telescope is in orbit, I never said it wasn't real, I said that by NASA own addmission and technological understanding of the telescope itself that the 'images' produced by the on-board computer and relayed back to earth are VR images computer enhanced images.

VR huh? Quite the claim (taken by itself it implies that they could be faking the whole satellite), your evidence does not back it up.

"Photo Release NO: STSc I-PRC94-53 - "Hubble observes a New Saturn Storm" "...the storm was imaged with Hubble's FP Camera 2... The picture is a COMPOSITE of images...to create a 'true colour' rendition of the planet.

You need to study some very basic photography and digital imaging principles Color composites are routinely done by amateurs. In fact, the images I posted in my last post were amateur composites, one of narrowband light in 3 wavelengths, one in typical red/green/blue colors. That's how you create a color image; you combine light from at least three different wavelengths to create the complete image. Normal consumer digital cameras do this compositing within the camera itself using red, green, and blue designated pixels on the CCD. That doesn't make it "fake" or VR.

[Point: Even the photgraphs of close objects can be doctored. There is no limit to what pre-programmed photos can show beyond what can be seen...]

Define "pre-program" - the compositing is always done AFTER the image is taken. And yes, there is a limit, the limit is the resolution of the telescope and camera itself and nothing beyond that can be seen.

There is no doubt that the computer programmes and VR imaging devices are replicated, anybody could aquire the available technology for themselves and simulate the same images, it is not unlike the amateur photos of 'UFO's, in actual fact it is an aim of NASA to pass on there VR tech and Plantery Camera Simulators to their followers and diciples.

You're comparing amateur astrophotography to images of "UFO's," most of which are hoaxes, you're stating that these are "simulated" images, you are accusing amateur astronomers like myself of deception and fakery. I have news for you, my images do not contain anything that wasn't detected by the camera. There's nothing simulated about it, it's real data in red green and blue combined into a single color image. Some of my color astrophotography:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3469/...40b18907_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3150/...8e7dbba648.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3186/...ae56a742_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3178/...a6997710_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2404/...76731d2e_o.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/3...af898f48_o.jpg
http://speur.tripod.com/astropics/in...m/m64?i=39&s=1

None of these images were faked or simulated. This is true color astrophotography.

"NGST [New Generation Space Telescope] Mission Simulator (NMS)..pre computed reports that were CREATED..."

Nice quote mining, the NGST NMS is to determine how quickly the telescope can theoretically complete its mission, it is NOT for creating fake images to pass of as real scientific data. Thanks for the deception.

"...distributed optics opens a world of possibilities as to how to configure the multiple small mirrors in the [computer programmed] system."

Good grief, MY telescope is computer programmed, that doesn't mean it produces fake images. The ignorance here is truly staggering. Advanced telescopes use multiple mirrors that are computer driven to move in a way that compensates for the turbulence in the atmosphere and improves the image NOT through "fakery" or "VR" but by actually correcting the real light! It's like putting glasses on someone who's short sighted (like me). Is everything I see fake because I use optics to compensate for my vision limitations? NO!

Originally Posted by Astronut

Good grief, MY telescope is computer programmed, that doesn't mean it produces fake images. The ignorance here is truly staggering. Advanced telescopes use multiple mirrors that are computer driven to move in a way that compensates for the turbulence in the atmosphere and improves the image NOT through "fakery" or "VR" but by actually correcting the real light! It's like putting glasses on someone who's short sighted (like me). Is everything I see fake because I use optics to compensate for my vision limitations? NO!

I know your telescope is pre-progammed by a computer, that is why we see in many modern telescopes whether it is the Hubble or your telescope we see to varying degrees - simulation, you are in fact propagating a fake image and this is admited by the designers and manufactures of this VR style astrophotography "actually correcting real light"!!! Really, according to who? How is the program 'correcting real light', if you study what you have been led to believe you will reach the enivitible conclusion that my understanding is correct and I am not alone in this understanding. NASA is in fact agrees with me, their photos are not real but are a simulated VR representation of the invisible, an 'invisible' that they themselves have determined to be there according to their understanding of the universe, their understanding is rooted in the Kabbahla and an extention of ancient mystical beliefs that we can trace back thousands of years. But it is proven by a select few that NASA cosmology is utterly and completely wrong, to compensate for their failure they have stolen through government taxes trillions of dollars, not billions but trillions, they find it neccssary to steal because they cannot logically prove their cosmology as factual, so they practice deception, a very sophisticated deception. I don't expect you or very many people will be able to dismantle this Satanic deception, so all we can do is present our knowledge as we know it to be and allow the spirit of truth to testify to the hearer, we do not have years to sit down and explain every detail of cosmology to individual people it's impossible.

So I state again with the Bible that the earth is Fixed and is at the centre of the universe, the sun and moon revolves around the earth and the planets are in orbit around the sun, the universe is 1 light day thick and the stars are solid luminous crystals, the entire heavens revolve around the earth just like you see from the circling of star trails. All known physical scientific experiments in fact prove a stationary earth, no experiment has ever proved the earth is moving, because it is not moving.

[Grimaldus]

I guess this thread isn't going away, so...
Seasons show that the earth has to be orbiting the sun. The observations from different parts of the world prove this.

[MahogonySnail]

It has been proven that the earth revolves around the sun. Here's why:

1) Bessel in 1838 measured the parallax of nearby stars. This showed the earth was in different places relative to the star after a 6 month period. More measurements since confirmed the earth follows a closed path around the sun. The reason why this was not measured or observed until 1838, was that in the 17th centuary the movements were so small that they were not able to be measured or overlooked altogether.

2) The aberration of starlight was another proof of the heliocentric solar system.

3) Spaceflight has successfully reached its destinations (and arrived) based on heliocentric models of the solar system. Photographs taken from space have also shown the sun at the centre, not the earth.

4) The laws of gravity and planetary motion show that the orbit of the earth is around a common centre of mass which is near the centre of the sun, not the centre of the earth.

[MahogonySnail]

All known physical scientific experiments in fact prove a stationary earth, no experiment has ever proved the earth is moving, because it is not moving.

Foucault in 1851 proved the earth moves with his pendulum. Newton did as well with his bucket experiments.

Ever heard of the Coriolis force ?It responsible for air being pulled to the right (counterclockwise) in the Northern Hemisphere and to the left (clockwise) in the Southern Hemisphere. There's one proof for you.

Precise inertial sensors which measure the accelerations and angular rotations need to account for the Coriolis effect (the rotation of the earth) to achieve precise measurements of position, velocity and attitude. Further proof that the earth is rotating on its axis.

[LynnJ]

Originally Posted by Cup-of-Ruin

"The earth is stablished that it cannot be moved" Psalm 93:1

"He...hangeth the earth upon nothing" Job 26:7

With all due respect, Cup-of-Rain, have you forgotten that no scripture is of any private interpretation but must be taken in light of other scriptures, especially in context of the scriptures immediately before and/'or after it. When we take anything out of context, whether God's word or anyone else's for that matter, we are in danger of misunderstanding it.

Ps 93:1-2 tells us about the steadfast and unmovable and strong nature of God and what He has created. It is not meant as a mini-treatise on the scientific nature of the earth's orbit:

The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty;
the LORD is robed in majesty
and is armed with strength.
The world is firmly established;
it cannot be moved. 2 Your throne was established long ago;
you are from all eternity.

Likewise, Job 26:7 must be taken in context of the entire chapter to correctly reflect what Job was saying in his somewhat sarcastic reply to his friends. He was talking specifically about God's power, giving an example in verse 7 that God is so powerful that he does not need anything to help Him create because He can create out of nothing.

Then Job replied:
2 "How you have helped the powerless!
How you have saved the arm that is feeble!
3 What advice you have offered to one without wisdom!
And what great insight you have displayed!
4 Who has helped you utter these words?
And whose spirit spoke from your mouth?
5 "The dead are in deep anguish,
those beneath the waters and all that live in them.
6 Death is naked before God;
Destruction lies uncovered.
7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.
8 He wraps up the waters in his clouds,
yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.
9 He covers the face of the full moon,
spreading his clouds over it.
10 He marks out the horizon on the face of the waters
for a boundary between light and darkness.
11 The pillars of the heavens quake,
aghast at his rebuke.
12 By his power he churned up the sea;
by his wisdom he cut Rahab to pieces.
13 By his breath the skies became fair;
his hand pierced the gliding serpent.
14 And these are but the outer fringe of his works;
how faint the whisper we hear of him!
Who then can understand the thunder of his power?"



This post is longer than I anticipated, so I will stop here. I hope this has clarified these two scriptures.

God bless us all as we seek to find and know God's truth.

[LynnJ]

Originally Posted by Cup-of-Ruin

So I state again with the Bible that the earth is Fixed and is at the centre of the universe, the sun and moon revolves around the earth and the planets are in orbit around the sun, the universe is 1 light day thick and the stars are solid luminous crystals, the entire heavens revolve around the earth just like you see from the circling of star trails. All known physical scientific experiments in fact prove a stationary earth, no experiment has ever proved the earth is moving, because it is not moving.

So that I can research this further, can you please provide the Bible references and a list of all of the physical science experiments that prove a stationary earth.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Cup-of-Ruin

I know your telescope is pre-progammed by a computer, that is why we see in many modern telescopes whether it is the Hubble or your telescope we see to varying degrees - simulation, you are in fact propagating a fake image and this is admited by the designers and manufactures of this VR style astrophotography

This is a serious accusation, I demand you prove it or retract it. My telescope is only "pre-programed" to track and locate objects in the sky, the images are taken by a separate camera and are not "fake."

"actually correcting real light"!!! Really, according to who? How is the program 'correcting real light',

Segmented mirrors like the one you quoted about correct the light as it comes into the telescope by analysing the atmospheric turbulence in realtime (by looking at a star and seeing how the point of light is being distorted) and moving the mirrors to undo the distortion created by the air. It's just like someone who needs glasses putting on a pair that were specially created to offset the distortion induced by their eye problem. By your logic, everything I see is actually fake because I wear glasses.

if you study what you have been led to believe you will reach the enivitible conclusion that my understanding is correct and I am not alone in this understanding.

What I've been lead to believe? I take my own images, you're accusing me of producing fake images!!

NASA is in fact agrees with me, their photos are not real but are a simulated VR representation of the invisible,

It's not simulated, it's real data received by cameras and filters that can see beyond what our eyes can see. By your logic, anyone who does IR photography is producing "VR" images.

I don't expect you or very many people will be able to dismantle this Satanic deception,

You've effectively accused me of participating in the "satanic deception" actively! There is NO deception involved and I know this for a fact!

So I state again with the Bible that the earth is Fixed and is at the centre of the universe,

If this were true, shuttle missions carrying cargo to ISS would crash. Why? Because the shuttle depends on launching with the rotation of earth to lower the change in velocity (delta V) required to achieve orbit. Loaded up with station parts/supplies, the shuttle cannot reach orbit at all if it can't take advantage of the earth's rotation.

[LynnJ]

Originally Posted by suaso

If the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it: There is one God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), Jesus (the Son) is savior of the world.

If the Earth is round and revolves around the Sun: There is one God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), Jesus (the Son) is savior of the world.

Either way, all truths found in the Bible regarding all things necessary for the salvation of your soul, my soul, and the soul of every person is still true! It's a win-win situation! Woo hoo!

I think you have given the most wise answer of all! Thank you.

Originally Posted by suaso

If the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it: There is one God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), Jesus (the Son) is savior of the world.

While this is true, if the first situation listed is the truth, then it must mean that I've lied about what I've seen, my hobby is a sham, I've been deceiving young girl scouts getting their merit badges for astronomy, and I've been perpetrating fake images online, just as Ruin has accused. Though I would still be saved, it would also mean that I am completely dishonest and a far more despicable sinner than I am in door #2.

[Slepsog4]

The Bible does not teach a fixed earth in the sense that it cannot move (ie, rotate on its axis and revolve around the sun)

The earth is so fixed that it cannot be REMOVED from its position by man or other means without God permitting or causing such.

The Hebrew language is phenomenological. It describes things as they appear. Bats are listed with birds because they are winged flying creatures. We know scientifically that there are major differences between true birds and bats.

So far as its affect the Sun does run a circuit in appearance from our vantage point.

The electromagnetism of the earth works precisely because it is rotating around a molten metal core.

Originally Posted by Grimaldus

I guess this thread isn't going away, so...
Seasons show that the earth has to be orbiting the sun. The observations from different parts of the world prove this.

It is an assumption that the earth is tilted on it's axis at 23.5 degrees, this has to be assumed in a heliocentric model. It has been known for thousands of years that the sun's path has a 23.5 degree helical oscillation, it is the angle of the sun's spiral orbit around the stationary earth that is the natural cause for the seasons. This is what is called the Geocentric model.

[MahogonySnail]

The earth is so fixed that it cannot be REMOVED from its position by man or other means without God permitting or causing such.

Exactly, it may simply mean the earth cannot be pushed out of its orbit around the sun.

Actually, all bible commentaries I've read on this verse do not attribute a physical or literal meaning to it. It is simply a poetic way of saying "God's purposes and plans will come to pass and no one can stop it" particularly in reference to the new heavens and new earth.

[MahogonySnail]

It is an assumption that the earth is tilted on it's axis at 23.5 degrees, this has to be assumed in a heliocentric model. It has been known for thousands of years that the sun's path has a 23.5 degree helical oscillation, it is the angle of the sun's spiral orbit around the stationary earth that is the natural cause for the seasons. This is what is called the Geocentric model.

A model is just a model. You could make a model based around any point in the universe and use it and it would still work. In fact there's a saying that goes something like "science is not fact, science is models". The Geocentric model is useful for some purposes that require the earth to be at the centre, even astrologists still use it I believe in their fortune telling etc.

However, the geocentric model was brought into question when observable effects like the way light moves through telescopes etc were seen , that could not be explained by a geocentric model. Since the early experiments hundreds of years ago, these experiments have been confirmed with the modern equipment we have today. Any model will work but all evidences available today point to a rotating earth on its tilted axis around a sun, the same as all the other planets rotating around the sun.

It has been proven that the earth revolves around the sun. Here's why:

1) Bessel in 1838 measured the parallax of nearby stars. This showed the earth was in different places relative to the star after a 6 month period. More measurements since confirmed the earth follows a closed path around the sun. The reason why this was not measured or observed until 1838, was that in the 17th centuary the movements were so small that they were not able to be measured or overlooked altogether.

Bessel's assumption is based upon the earthbound observer changing position every six months by 186,000,000 miles. By contrast the Geocentric parallax uses the diameter of the earth as a baseline - 8000 miles. So, 8000 X 23250 = 186,000,000. The reason why any parallax is detected for Bessel's star 61 Cygni (0.3 parallax) was because the baseline for the observer was assumed to be 186,000,000 miles futher away than the baseline of the observer six months earlier...thus giving a baseline on a triangle of 186,000,000 miles instead of 8000 miles. You see the Heliocentric model in fact suffers from a lack of trigonometric parallax evidence that can only be accounted for if stars are set back at incredible distances.

2) The aberration of starlight was another proof of the heliocentric solar system.

Either the star is moving or the earth, we observe star trails as stars move in a circular motion around the earth, as the earth is the centre around which the heavenly lights revolve.

3) Spaceflight has successfully reached its destinations (and arrived) based on heliocentric models of the solar system. Photographs taken from space have also shown the sun at the centre, not the earth.

There is no spaceflight past the Van Allen radiation belts, what objects humans have sent into the revolving orbit of space prove a Geocentric model as much as a Heliocentric model.

4) The laws of gravity and planetary motion show that the orbit of the earth is around a common centre of mass which is near the centre of the sun, not the centre of the earth.

If Newtonian Gravity Law was true I would not be sitting at my computer typing this post but instead as a body of weight weighing significantly less then the weight of the earth I would be on my way to the centre of the sun, unless I could find a way to attach myself to the earth so to avoid the superior gravitational pull of the sun over the earth.

Originally Posted by LynnJ

So that I can research this further, can you please provide the Bible references and a list of all of the physical science experiments that prove a stationary earth.

Thanks.

Well OK, yes Sir!

It would be better if you paid close attention to what I am saying and did your own further study and research in your own time.