KEEPING TORAH.

[distinctiveministry]

I see you miss the distinction and therefore the importance of Jesus. Keeping the Law IS about perfection. Otherwise what do you do to Gods Law?? You bring it down to something that we can persevere in? A pseudo righteousness? And what have you done to the cross of Christ by saying it is not a matter of perfection but of perseverence? If we all just persevere did we need the Lord Jesus to die upon the cross? We most assurredly do need Jesus if it is about perfection. Because without Jesus we can do nothing. Don't you see the danger in leading people back to the Law?? Don't you know about yokes and burdens??

God Bless You

What God intended the Law for and what the Pharisees did with it are obviously different. This is why Jesus comes across as so vitriolic toward the Pharisees. The Pharisees in the gospels are the ones concerned with 'perfection' so that they were burdening others with traditions meant to protect the Law from ever being broken. Despite his opposition to the Pharisees, however, Jesus was still ultimately a teacher and interpreter of the Law. The vast majority of what he has to say in Matthew-Luke deals with how people can keep God's laws. It is important to bear in mind that his audience was Jewish, but equally important to realize that he was adamant that he did not come to abolish the Law.

Modern people make the mistake of thinking that the opposite of Law is grace. This could not be FARTHER from the truth! The opposite of Law is lawlessness. Even though Israel had been given the Law, God continually acted toward them in a gracious manner. Gods' very choice of Israel as the recipient of the Law and the covenants was entirely gracious. Jesus is necessary mainly because Gentiles were without God, having no covenant and no relationship with Him. Through Jesus' life and death the grace of God was extended to the Gentiles. As Paul says, at the end of time Jesus will be judge of both Jew and Gentile. As Matthew records from the lips of Jesus, the basis of his judgment is righteousness (sheep and goats). As Paul again says in Romans- no one is righteous without grace from God, and that grace is through faithfulness.
Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, and many more observed Torah, but of course they were Jews- why wouldn't they keep Torah!?

 

[Avinu]

To say nothing else, Torah is joy, it's fun, and it's awesome to keep. It reveals Yeshua in more ways than people realize. Before making a judgement call or listen to someone speak against it. I challenge anyone to study it for yourself(especially since God tells us to study to show ourselves approved) find out what Torah truly is about. Too many people get bent over it and treat it like it's leaperous, this is the Word of God that you're coming against, that is very dangerous ground to walk. Please study it for yourself and ask God to reveal what is the truth about it. Shalom

 

[Avinu]

Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, and many more observed Torah, but of course they were Jews- why wouldn't they keep Torah!?

Them being jewish is irrelevent, but I like it. The thing to ask everyone, (which I've seen alot ignore and avoid) Since Yeshua/Jesus kept Torah, and the Bible tells us to imitate Him, then why do people try so hard to find a way out. Because unfortunately, people want what they want, and want to do the least they have to do to get it. If God said " You're all saved, go live however way you want, most would actually go live in sin without hesitation. But God says "here is my free gift of grace and salvation, but please keep my commandments to show me you love me." It seems that some get a thought of " I don't want to have to keep any rules, why do I have to do that?" We live in a society that teaches us how to get around things instead of just doing the right thing. Shalom

 

[Grandpa]

I guess you either understand or you don't. You realize you can't keep the law by trying to keep the law don't you? You can only keep the law by walking in love. And you can only walk in love through the grace and salvation of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is all about Jesus all the time. It is not about us.

But if you bring Gods perfect Law down to a place where it is possible for flesh to obey it then you are doing precisely what the pharisees were doing.

You say you follow Jesus so I assume you know this?

God Bless You

 

[Avinu]

I'm sorry grandpa but your statement makes no sense at all. If you read anything of what I've wrote then you'll see that. Shalom

 

[distinctiveministry]

Them being jewish is irrelevent, but I like it. The thing to ask everyone, (which I've seen alot ignore and avoid) Since Yeshua/Jesus kept Torah, and the Bible tells us to imitate Him, then why do people try so hard to find a way out. Because unfortunately, people want what they want, and want to do the least they have to do to get it. If God said " You're all saved, go live however way you want, most would actually go live in sin without hesitation. But God says "here is my free gift of grace and salvation, but please keep my commandments to show me you love me." It seems that some get a thought of " I don't want to have to keep any rules, why do I have to do that?" We live in a society that teaches us how to get around things instead of just doing the right thing. Shalom

Them being Jewish has everything to do with it. God made the covenant which includes the Torah with the descendants of Israel. Gentiles who chose to observe Torah were permitted to do so, but Gentiles could also live in Israel and not observe Torah but rather only a few commands which are universal in nature (murder, idolatry, sexual immorality- in other words, the capitol offenses).
As for immitating Jesus- Jesus was a chaste, homeless, itinerant preacher who spoke Aramaic and otherwise displayed many attributes that no one would prescribe for all followers of Jesus. Of course, Paul was also a chaste, homless, intinerant preacher, so maybe we should all be that after all? As Paul would say- By no means!
I think you are failing to distinguish between covenant peoples. Each covenant is given to a specific and well defined group of people, and only the people to whom it is given are bound by that covenant. I am not a descendant of Israel, and therefore am not a recipient of the covenants given exclusively to Israel.
Please don't misunderstand me. I have argued at other times on CC for the need for Christians to practice the moral excellence of the earliest Christians. You read that right...the NEED. We are called to be holy, righteous and like God in every respect that we can be. This is not extra credit or bonus material, it is the inevitable byproduct of turning to God in repentance and love.
Since I mentioned that I have previously commented on this issue and there are sure to be people here who will remember what I have said: Christianity has its origins in the Jewish/Hebrew faith. I will never relent on my insistence that true Judaism was and is a religion of faith, not works. The earliest followers of Jesus were not Christians, but Jewish disciples who maintained their Jewish identity. What they did NOT do was try to pass on to Gentile disciples this Jewish identity, but rather they taught Genties how to be disciples of Jesus and worshippers of the one true God.
While I don't agree with everything that she has to say, I strongly recommend that anyone who is serious about studying this issue read a book by Pamela Eisenbaum titled "Paul Was Not a Christian". Dr. Eisenbaum is an Associate Professor of Biblical Studies and Christian Origins at Iliff School of Theology in Denver and maintains the Jewish identity of Jesus and Paul while upholding the non-Jewish identity of Gentile Christians as a faithful understanding of Paul.

 

[Avinu]

Them being Jewish has everything to do with it. God made the covenant which includes the Torah with the descendants of Israel. Gentiles who chose to observe Torah were permitted to do so, but Gentiles could also live in Israel and not observe Torah but rather only a few commands which are universal in nature (murder, idolatry, sexual immorality- in other words, the capitol offenses).

Please explain where you got this info, and what era you're talking about.

As for immitating Jesus- Jesus was a chaste, homeless, itinerant preacher who spoke Aramaic and otherwise displayed many attributes that no one would prescribe for all followers of Jesus. Of course, Paul was also a chaste, homless, intinerant preacher, so maybe we should all be that after all? As Paul would say- By no means!
I think you are failing to distinguish between covenant peoples. Each covenant is given to a specific and well defined group of people, and only the people to whom it is given are bound by that covenant. I am not a descendant of Israel, and therefore am not a recipient of the covenants given exclusively to Israel.
Please don't misunderstand me. I have argued at other times on CC for the need for Christians to practice the moral excellence of the earliest Christians. You read that right...the NEED. We are called to be holy, righteous and like God in every respect that we can be. This is not extra credit or bonus material, it is the inevitable byproduct of turning to God in repentance and love.

Now correct me if I'm wrong. But what I think you're saying here is God made a covenant for Israel and a covenant for christians?
If so Galatians 3:26-29 puts a big hole in it.
26)For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27) For as many of you as wer baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28) There is NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.
29) And if you are Christ's, then you are ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS according to the PROMISE.

Not to mention the fact that Jesus said He came for the jew first, but because my people denied Him it was past on to everyone else.

Since I mentioned that I have previously commented on this issue and there are sure to be people here who will remember what I have said: Christianity has its origins in the Jewish/Hebrew faith. I will never relent on my insistence that true Judaism was and is a religion of faith, not works. The earliest followers of Jesus were not Christians, but Jewish disciples who maintained their Jewish identity. What they did NOT do was try to pass on to Gentile disciples this Jewish identity, but rather they taught Genties how to be disciples of Jesus and worshippers of the one true God.

See this is where part of the problem lies for most who don't understand. Jews are of the tribe of Judah, that's it no more. These are not jewish ways, traditions, identity, etc. We are hebrews, we all (12 tribes) of Israel kept Torah. Yeshua kept Torah, the disciples kept Torah. There was no passing on of the jewish identity. It was passing on to the gentiles what God originally gave Israel. God even says many times in Torah if, that if a gentile wished to live in Israel or worship the God of Israel, they were to keep Torah just as Israel did. You're right, the disciples taught the gentiles how to follow Messiah, and be worshippers of YHWH.
All through out the NT it says to keep God's commandments. Also it's not the hebrew faith, it's God's way given to us all. People need to quit marking it as the jewish/hebrew faith. It was never our faith per say. It is God's way, that's it.

While I don't agree with everything that she has to say, I strongly recommend that anyone who is serious about studying this issue read a book by Pamela Eisenbaum titled "Paul Was Not a Christian". Dr. Eisenbaum is an Associate Professor of Biblical Studies and Christian Origins at Iliff School of Theology in Denver and maintains the Jewish identity of Jesus and Paul while upholding the non-Jewish identity of Gentile Christians as a faithful understanding of Paul.

As for this lady your talking about. I don't know who she is, my personal opinion is, I see too many children of God spending time reading other peoples books and not spending enough time in the Word of God, letting God do the teaching. Again I stress, there is no passing on any kind of identity, it is what God gave Israel, so also He gave the rest of the world.

It makes no sense for God to give one child one set of rules, and then adopt another child and say, "You don't have to keep my rules, you can do what you want for the most part. Maybe just keep a few of my rules." There is no logic whatsoever in it. God is God, He does not change, we are ONE in Him. Yeshua kept Torah, and we are to imitate Him. No matter how someone cuts it, it is what it is and there's no way around it. Thank you for your conversation. You have been respectful in your approach, and I hope I have shown you the same. Shalom

 

[Grandpa]

I'm sorry grandpa but your statement makes no sense at all. If you read anything of what I've wrote then you'll see that. Shalom

I guess you either understand or you don't.

I already knew it but I still had hope.

 

[Gimzani]

Let us also consider that We who are in Christ are no longer Gentiles:

Act 15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.
​

Conversion? To what? To Israel.

Too often I hear the phrase - "Gentile Church" - there is NO SUCH THING. Once you accept Messiah you are adopted as sons of the living God and have become a part of the Kingdom. But you do not become something else - you are grafted into the heritidge of Abraham.

Act 15:14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
​

This context connects the word alien - or gentile - with being "without Christ" AND separation from the commonwealth of Israel.

Notice also that the above says, covenants of promise. Given to whom? Israel - of which gentiles are grafted in. (Romans 11) We are also given the same Torah which is used to instruct us in the ways of righteousness so that we can be better followers of Messiah.

When you are in Messiah you have been grafted into Israel.

Isa 56:3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"; Nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree."
​

As such - since we have been adopted into the house of YHVH - (God) - don't you think we'd better learn to follow HIS rules?

You cannot pick and choose what part of the Bible you want to obey. He is YHVH - (God)- we are not.

We need to stop looking at the Word with the attitude of "I've got to" and instead see it as the blessing that it is saying, "I get to!"

Even in the Spirit - attitude is everything.

Shalom

 

[Avinu]

As such - since we have been adopted into the house of YHVH - (God) - don't you think we'd better learn to follow HIS rules?

You cannot pick and choose what part of the Bible you want to obey. He is YHVH - (God)- we are not.

We need to stop looking at the Word with the attitude of "I've got to" and instead see it as the blessing that it is saying, "I get to!"

Even in the Spirit - attitude is everything.

Amen, it's all about attitude, it's all about the way we look at it. Shalom

 

[zone]

What God intended the Law for and what the Pharisees did with it are obviously different. This is why Jesus comes across as so vitriolic toward the Pharisees. The Pharisees in the gospels are the ones concerned with 'perfection' so that they were burdening others with traditions meant to protect the Law from ever being broken. Despite his opposition to the Pharisees, however, Jesus was still ultimately a teacher and interpreter of the Law. The vast majority of what he has to say in Matthew-Luke deals with how people can keep God's laws. It is important to bear in mind that his audience was Jewish, but equally important to realize that he was adamant that he did not come to abolish the Law.

Modern people make the mistake of thinking that the opposite of Law is grace. This could not be FARTHER from the truth! The opposite of Law is lawlessness. Even though Israel had been given the Law, God continually acted toward them in a gracious manner. Gods' very choice of Israel as the recipient of the Law and the covenants was entirely gracious. Jesus is necessary mainly because Gentiles were without God, having no covenant and no relationship with Him. Through Jesus' life and death the grace of God was extended to the Gentiles. As Paul says, at the end of time Jesus will be judge of both Jew and Gentile. As Matthew records from the lips of Jesus, the basis of his judgment is righteousness (sheep and goats). As Paul again says in Romans- no one is righteous without grace from God, and that grace is through faithfulness.
Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, and many more observed Torah, but of course they were Jews- why wouldn't they keep Torah!?

way to cut the jews off from Grace distinctive.

way to make Jesus a sacrifice for the goyim but the jews don't need one. "Jesus is 'necessary'" like it's something distasteful.

if i were you i'd get my $$ back from seminary distinctive: this is nothing more than Hagee 2.0

2 sets of rules?

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

 

[zone]

Let us also consider that We who are in Christ are no longer Gentiles:
Shalom

Gimzani....are you an ethnic hebrew? or a gentile?
zone

 

[zone]

While I don't agree with everything that she has to say, I strongly recommend that anyone who is serious about studying this issue read a book by Pamela Eisenbaum titled "Paul Was Not a Christian". Dr. Eisenbaum is an Associate Professor of Biblical Studies and Christian Origins at Iliff School of Theology in Denver and maintains the Jewish identity of Jesus and Paul while upholding the non-Jewish identity of Gentile Christians as a faithful understanding of Paul.

back to that stupid New Perspective on Paul again?
come on distinctive - give it up ok?

isn't there some other religion you'd prefer?

this one's TAKEN and ESTABLISHED.

 

[zone]

To say nothing else, Torah is joy, it's fun, and it's awesome to keep. It reveals Yeshua in more ways than people realize. Before making a judgement call or listen to someone speak against it. I challenge anyone to study it for yourself(especially since God tells us to study to show ourselves approved) find out what Torah truly is about. Too many people get bent over it and treat it like it's leaperous, this is the Word of God that you're coming against, that is very dangerous ground to walk. Please study it for yourself and ask God to reveal what is the truth about it. Shalom

hi Avinu.
is it enough if i keep the words of The Lord in the New Testament in my heart?
zone

 

[distinctiveministry]

back to that stupid New Perspective on Paul again?
come on distinctive - give it up ok?

isn't there some other religion you'd prefer?

this one's TAKEN and ESTABLISHED.

Actually, Dr. Eisenbaum takes issue with the New Perspective, saying that it hit on some right notes but otherwise missed the point. You need to start speaking to people respectfully.

 

[zone]

Actually, Dr. Eisenbaum takes issue with the New Perspective, saying that it hit on some right notes but otherwise missed the point. You need to start speaking to people respectfully.

really.

i don't respect people who take the Name of Christ then try to overturn or deconstruct Christianity (or Overcoming Christianity is another fab idea). but you already know this.

if you don't accept the Historic Christian faith as is, that's fine.
but surely you expect controversy...isn't that what it's all about, these new things?
i reckon it's cool to be on the cutting edge of these New Perspectives, but some of us will have just a teensy issue with it.

why recommend judiac scholarly sources on what Christianity is and isn't? i've asked you this before. how can someone who is an uncoverted sinner be a valid source of truth for Christians concerning our faith?


i mean...there's a title that's not provocative:

Paul Was Not a Christian

The Original Message of a Misunderstood Apostle​

By Pamela Eisenbaum

Pamela Eisenbaum, an expert on early Christianity, reveals the true nature of the historical Paul in Paul Was Not a Christian. She explores the idea of Paul not as the founder of a new Christian religion, but as a devout Jew who believed Jesus was the Christ who would unite Jews and Gentiles and fulfill God’s universal plan for humanity. Eisenbaum’s work in Paul Was Not a Christian will have a profound impact on the way many Christians approach evangelism and how to better follow Jesus’s—and Paul’s—teachings on how to live faithfully today.

Book Description


Paul Was Not a Christian is a groundbreaking work that systematically overturns both scholarly and popular conceptions held by Christians and Jews, liberals and conservatives alike. As Eisenbaum reveals, Paul is not the true founder of Christianity as is often claimed, nor does Paul understand Jesus Christ as having superseded the Torah and thereby replacing Judaism with Christianity. Although Paul unabashedly proclaimed his faith in Jesus, such proclamations were not inherently "Christian," since no such religious category existed in Paul's time. Jesus, rather, represented the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that he would be a blessing to the nations.

Eisenbaum's work reverses the image we have of Paul as a model for Christian conversion and greatly increases our understanding of both Judaism and Christianity. Provocatively argued and far-reaching in its implications, Paul Was Not a Christian is a much-needed corrective to the traditional portrait of Paul and his divisive legacy.

~

and:

IS PAUL THE FATHER OF MISOGYNY AND ANTISEMITISM?

by Pamela Eisenbaum​

What was Paul talking about, anyway? Not what you might think. ​

PAMELA EISENBAUM is Associate Professor of Biblical Studies and Christian Origins at the Iliff School of Theology. Her book The Jewish Heroes of Christian History: Hebrews 11 in Literary Context was published in 1997 by Scholars Press. She is currently writing two books, one on the apostle Paul and one on the Epistle to the Hebrews. This article is a revised form of a paper delivered in November 1999 at Temple Emanu-El in New York City, under the auspices of the Women's Interfaith Planning Committee of Auburn Seminary.

I have a passionate interest in the apostle Paul. Many people think this passion is unusual because I am a Jew not a Christian. What's more, I like to think of myself as a feminist. What's a nice Jewish feminist doing studying the apostle Paul? After all, from a Jewish perspective, Paul is a heretic who had a demented view of Judaism. From a feminist perspective, Paul is an ally of Christian conservatives who wish to keep women in a subordinate position to men.

Nevertheless, my interest derives naturally from my professional commitments. I am a Jewish New Testament scholar who teaches in a Christian seminary,(1) and, after some years of studying and teaching Paul, I have come to the conclusion that Paul was a committed, well-intentioned Jew, even if the subsequent uses of his teachings were abominable where Jews and women are concerned. Moreover, I believe Paul was largely driven by the fact that he was both a Jew and a citizen of the wider Hellenistic world that encompassed the ancient Mediterranean in his day. These two components of his identity caused him to realize that the world is a diverse and complex place. In my view, Paul is one of the first people in the history of Western civilization to deal directly with the problem of multiculturalism. As a modern American Jew, I do not end up in the same place Paul ends up (with Christ), but I appreciate how he wrestled with life in its multitudinous complexity and how boldly and constructively he faced questions about human diversity. In my view, Paul's theological vision can be summed up by Galatians 3:28: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female, for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."(2) Exploring the essence of this dictum, particularly the implications for gender and intercultural relations, is the driving force behind my passion for Paul. Because my understanding of Paul deviates rather significantly from traditional as well as au courant scholarly views, I will begin by briefly describing the typical understanding of Paul and his writings.

IS PAUL THE FATHER OF MISOGYNY AND ANTISEMITISM?

 

[distinctiveministry]

really.

i don't respect people who take the Name of Christ then try to overturn or deconstruct Christianity (or Overcoming Christianity is another fab idea). but you already know this.

if you don't accept the Historic Christian faith as is, that's fine.
but surely you expect controversy...isn't that what it's all about, these new things?
i reckon it's cool to be on the cutting edge of these New Perspectives, but some of us will have just a teensy issue with it.

why recommend judiac scholarly sources on what Christianity is and isn't? i've asked you this before. how can someone who is an uncoverted sinner be a valid source of truth for Christians concerning our faith?


i mean...there's a title that's not provocative:

Paul Was Not a Christian​

The Original Message of a Misunderstood Apostle​

By Pamela Eisenbaum

Pamela Eisenbaum, an expert on early Christianity, reveals the true nature of the historical Paul in Paul Was Not a Christian. She explores the idea of Paul not as the founder of a new Christian religion, but as a devout Jew who believed Jesus was the Christ who would unite Jews and Gentiles and fulfill God’s universal plan for humanity. Eisenbaum’s work in Paul Was Not a Christian will have a profound impact on the way many Christians approach evangelism and how to better follow Jesus’s—and Paul’s—teachings on how to live faithfully today.

Book Description


Paul Was Not a Christian is a groundbreaking work that systematically overturns both scholarly and popular conceptions held by Christians and Jews, liberals and conservatives alike. As Eisenbaum reveals, Paul is not the true founder of Christianity as is often claimed, nor does Paul understand Jesus Christ as having superseded the Torah and thereby replacing Judaism with Christianity. Although Paul unabashedly proclaimed his faith in Jesus, such proclamations were not inherently "Christian," since no such religious category existed in Paul's time. Jesus, rather, represented the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that he would be a blessing to the nations.

Eisenbaum's work reverses the image we have of Paul as a model for Christian conversion and greatly increases our understanding of both Judaism and Christianity. Provocatively argued and far-reaching in its implications, Paul Was Not a Christian is a much-needed corrective to the traditional portrait of Paul and his divisive legacy.

~

and:

IS PAUL THE FATHER OF MISOGYNY AND ANTISEMITISM?​

by Pamela Eisenbaum​

What was Paul talking about, anyway? Not what you might think. ​

PAMELA EISENBAUM is Associate Professor of Biblical Studies and Christian Origins at the Iliff School of Theology. Her book The Jewish Heroes of Christian History: Hebrews 11 in Literary Context was published in 1997 by Scholars Press. She is currently writing two books, one on the apostle Paul and one on the Epistle to the Hebrews. This article is a revised form of a paper delivered in November 1999 at Temple Emanu-El in New York City, under the auspices of the Women's Interfaith Planning Committee of Auburn Seminary.

I have a passionate interest in the apostle Paul. Many people think this passion is unusual because I am a Jew not a Christian. What's more, I like to think of myself as a feminist. What's a nice Jewish feminist doing studying the apostle Paul? After all, from a Jewish perspective, Paul is a heretic who had a demented view of Judaism. From a feminist perspective, Paul is an ally of Christian conservatives who wish to keep women in a subordinate position to men.

Nevertheless, my interest derives naturally from my professional commitments. I am a Jewish New Testament scholar who teaches in a Christian seminary,(1) and, after some years of studying and teaching Paul, I have come to the conclusion that Paul was a committed, well-intentioned Jew, even if the subsequent uses of his teachings were abominable where Jews and women are concerned. Moreover, I believe Paul was largely driven by the fact that he was both a Jew and a citizen of the wider Hellenistic world that encompassed the ancient Mediterranean in his day. These two components of his identity caused him to realize that the world is a diverse and complex place. In my view, Paul is one of the first people in the history of Western civilization to deal directly with the problem of multiculturalism. As a modern American Jew, I do not end up in the same place Paul ends up (with Christ), but I appreciate how he wrestled with life in its multitudinous complexity and how boldly and constructively he faced questions about human diversity. In my view, Paul's theological vision can be summed up by Galatians 3:28: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female, for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."(2) Exploring the essence of this dictum, particularly the implications for gender and intercultural relations, is the driving force behind my passion for Paul. Because my understanding of Paul deviates rather significantly from traditional as well as au courant scholarly views, I will begin by briefly describing the typical understanding of Paul and his writings.

IS PAUL THE FATHER OF MISOGYNY AND ANTISEMITISM?

It is one thing to be on the cutting edge of the newest thing, practically the specialty of Protestant churches, and another ballgame entirely to strip away all that has been added and changed in dogged pursuit of the earliest form of Christianity. I am firmly in the second camp.

 

[distinctiveministry]

really.

i don't respect people who take the Name of Christ then try to overturn or deconstruct Christianity (or Overcoming Christianity is another fab idea). but you already know this.

if you don't accept the Historic Christian faith as is, that's fine.
but surely you expect controversy...isn't that what it's all about, these new things?
i reckon it's cool to be on the cutting edge of these New Perspectives, but some of us will have just a teensy issue with it.

why recommend judiac scholarly sources on what Christianity is and isn't? i've asked you this before. how can someone who is an uncoverted sinner be a valid source of truth for Christians concerning our faith?


i mean...there's a title that's not provocative:

Paul Was Not a Christian​

The Original Message of a Misunderstood Apostle​

By Pamela Eisenbaum

Pamela Eisenbaum, an expert on early Christianity, reveals the true nature of the historical Paul in Paul Was Not a Christian. She explores the idea of Paul not as the founder of a new Christian religion, but as a devout Jew who believed Jesus was the Christ who would unite Jews and Gentiles and fulfill God’s universal plan for humanity. Eisenbaum’s work in Paul Was Not a Christian will have a profound impact on the way many Christians approach evangelism and how to better follow Jesus’s—and Paul’s—teachings on how to live faithfully today.

Book Description


Paul Was Not a Christian is a groundbreaking work that systematically overturns both scholarly and popular conceptions held by Christians and Jews, liberals and conservatives alike. As Eisenbaum reveals, Paul is not the true founder of Christianity as is often claimed, nor does Paul understand Jesus Christ as having superseded the Torah and thereby replacing Judaism with Christianity. Although Paul unabashedly proclaimed his faith in Jesus, such proclamations were not inherently "Christian," since no such religious category existed in Paul's time. Jesus, rather, represented the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that he would be a blessing to the nations.

Eisenbaum's work reverses the image we have of Paul as a model for Christian conversion and greatly increases our understanding of both Judaism and Christianity. Provocatively argued and far-reaching in its implications, Paul Was Not a Christian is a much-needed corrective to the traditional portrait of Paul and his divisive legacy.

~

and:

IS PAUL THE FATHER OF MISOGYNY AND ANTISEMITISM?​

by Pamela Eisenbaum​

What was Paul talking about, anyway? Not what you might think. ​

PAMELA EISENBAUM is Associate Professor of Biblical Studies and Christian Origins at the Iliff School of Theology. Her book The Jewish Heroes of Christian History: Hebrews 11 in Literary Context was published in 1997 by Scholars Press. She is currently writing two books, one on the apostle Paul and one on the Epistle to the Hebrews. This article is a revised form of a paper delivered in November 1999 at Temple Emanu-El in New York City, under the auspices of the Women's Interfaith Planning Committee of Auburn Seminary.

I have a passionate interest in the apostle Paul. Many people think this passion is unusual because I am a Jew not a Christian. What's more, I like to think of myself as a feminist. What's a nice Jewish feminist doing studying the apostle Paul? After all, from a Jewish perspective, Paul is a heretic who had a demented view of Judaism. From a feminist perspective, Paul is an ally of Christian conservatives who wish to keep women in a subordinate position to men.

Nevertheless, my interest derives naturally from my professional commitments. I am a Jewish New Testament scholar who teaches in a Christian seminary,(1) and, after some years of studying and teaching Paul, I have come to the conclusion that Paul was a committed, well-intentioned Jew, even if the subsequent uses of his teachings were abominable where Jews and women are concerned. Moreover, I believe Paul was largely driven by the fact that he was both a Jew and a citizen of the wider Hellenistic world that encompassed the ancient Mediterranean in his day. These two components of his identity caused him to realize that the world is a diverse and complex place. In my view, Paul is one of the first people in the history of Western civilization to deal directly with the problem of multiculturalism. As a modern American Jew, I do not end up in the same place Paul ends up (with Christ), but I appreciate how he wrestled with life in its multitudinous complexity and how boldly and constructively he faced questions about human diversity. In my view, Paul's theological vision can be summed up by Galatians 3:28: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female, for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."(2) Exploring the essence of this dictum, particularly the implications for gender and intercultural relations, is the driving force behind my passion for Paul. Because my understanding of Paul deviates rather significantly from traditional as well as au courant scholarly views, I will begin by briefly describing the typical understanding of Paul and his writings.

IS PAUL THE FATHER OF MISOGYNY AND ANTISEMITISM?

Also note, as I think you failed to do, Dr. Eisenbaum says that Paul is NOT the father of misogyny and antisemitism as he has often been accused (especially by women on the first count and Jews on the second). Note sure you REALLY want to take issue with her on that?

 

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Also note, as I think you failed to do, Dr. Eisenbaum says that Paul is NOT the father of misogyny and antisemitism as he has often been accused (especially by women on the first count and Jews on the second). Note sure you REALLY want to take issue with her on that?

as i thought i made clear: i do not consider an uncoverted jewish scholar a source of truth for Christians. now if you really believed what the scriptures say and i assume your personal testimony (?), anyone not converted and given a renewed mind and faith in Christ doesn't know Him, nor the Father.

so why is she hailed by your "camp" as knowing anything about Paul? because she's jewish?

the controversial titles and headlines and all the drama...it's nothing new. you liberals love that.

but it doesn't change a thing. you're in another camp and another faith.

 

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It is one thing to be on the cutting edge of the newest thing, practically the specialty of Protestant churches, and another ballgame entirely to strip away all that has been added and changed in dogged pursuit of the earliest form of Christianity. I am firmly in the second camp.

strip away all that has been added.
hmmm...well, i assume you are fluent in the Biblical languages then?