Fluent? Ha, NO. VERY few people are fluent in biblical languages. Like, only people who specialize in biblical languages are FLUENT. All I can say for myself is that I studied Greek in an accredited academic setting and learned more about how to use study tools and understand Greek grammar and rules than actual memorization of vocabulary and declensions and parsing tables. But you can take my word for it (or not, whatever) that it is far more important to know how to learn than to know specific content in a field or subject.
KEEPING TORAH.
- Thread starter Avinu
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right. i don't speak or read the biblical languages.
but i make certain to study under those who do. and i try to check for myself.
um....what do you mean "it is far more important to know how to learn than to know specific content in a field or subject"?
i've a got nearlya decade in university. i not only had to know how to learn, i had to know the content. that's how i got the degrees and passed the exams.
i should think if we are brave enough to go in and strip away all that's been added to Christianity we would be fluent in the languages (?)
in any case. i'm unclear as to what the destination is for you. exactly where did Christianity go so wrong distinctive that you need to strip something away? (i do know you do not believe Jesus is God), so that aside: what other grave errors do we have...concerning the texts themselves?
but i make certain to study under those who do. and i try to check for myself.
um....what do you mean "it is far more important to know how to learn than to know specific content in a field or subject"?
i've a got nearlya decade in university. i not only had to know how to learn, i had to know the content. that's how i got the degrees and passed the exams.
i should think if we are brave enough to go in and strip away all that's been added to Christianity we would be fluent in the languages (?)
in any case. i'm unclear as to what the destination is for you. exactly where did Christianity go so wrong distinctive that you need to strip something away? (i do know you do not believe Jesus is God), so that aside: what other grave errors do we have...concerning the texts themselves?
oh i know avinu!
you're not a 'legalist'. you love Torah for it is God's Law...i love it too - but it makes me run to Jesus
i was simply asking if anything has changed for gentiles since the church made its decision in Acts? and, since there is no difference, it really means for all of us.
(Daniel 9 is fulfilled)
love zone.
you're not a 'legalist'. you love Torah for it is God's Law...i love it too - but it makes me run to Jesus
i was simply asking if anything has changed for gentiles since the church made its decision in Acts? and, since there is no difference, it really means for all of us.
(Daniel 9 is fulfilled
)love zone.
The divinity of Jesus is not a textual error, it is a translation and interpretive error. I often do my own studies in Greek, but if there is ANY question then I consult experts. But I try to get a balance by reading experts from differing theological perspectives (Ehrman and Metzger being big time sources, although there are many others).
Beyond textual matters and the aforementioned divinity of Jesus, I respectfully decline salaried clergy, church buildings, 'Christian' holidays with pagan origins, special dress for worship, gender segregation, creeds, tithing, worship 'services', systematic theology and a few other odds and ends.
Beyond textual matters and the aforementioned divinity of Jesus, I respectfully decline salaried clergy, church buildings, 'Christian' holidays with pagan origins, special dress for worship, gender segregation, creeds, tithing, worship 'services', systematic theology and a few other odds and ends.
I worship our Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I am simply a strict monotheist.
As for assembly, my job keeps me from really being able to fellowship with anyone. I work 16 hours each on Saturday and Sunday, as well as 8 hours on Friday evening. I also have grad school classes Tues, Wed, and Thurs from 6 to 9pm. During the day I study and take care of my kids while my wife works.
I suppose your real question is what denomination or group do I affiliate with. I have some things in common with Christadelphians, other things with Unitarians, and other things with other groups. I don't know of a group that 'fits like a glove', but I don't think it is necessary to be perfectly aligned in order to have fellowship and to carry out the ministry of mutual edification.
As for assembly, my job keeps me from really being able to fellowship with anyone. I work 16 hours each on Saturday and Sunday, as well as 8 hours on Friday evening. I also have grad school classes Tues, Wed, and Thurs from 6 to 9pm. During the day I study and take care of my kids while my wife works.
I suppose your real question is what denomination or group do I affiliate with. I have some things in common with Christadelphians, other things with Unitarians, and other things with other groups. I don't know of a group that 'fits like a glove', but I don't think it is necessary to be perfectly aligned in order to have fellowship and to carry out the ministry of mutual edification.
hi distinctive.
thanks, that's more detailed. the christadelphians i know about.
now what about working on the Sabbath as you do? isn't that a problem?
what's your take on Penal Substitutionary Atonement?
did i get you right that you think the jews are covered under the Mosaic Covenant, that Jesus was sacrificed for the gentiles?
aslo, Who is THE Alpha and Omega and what does that mean?
zone
thanks, that's more detailed. the christadelphians i know about.
now what about working on the Sabbath as you do? isn't that a problem?
what's your take on Penal Substitutionary Atonement?
did i get you right that you think the jews are covered under the Mosaic Covenant, that Jesus was sacrificed for the gentiles?
aslo, Who is THE Alpha and Omega and what does that mean?
zone
If I were Jewish I would be concerned about the Sabbath, but I'm not.
Penal Substitution, well...the primary focus of this theory of atonement is the judicial or forensic language and themes of scripture. By this way of thinking sin is "missing the mark" and causes "guilt" and sin accrues a "penalty" that must be "paid", ultimately with death. I would go right to the heart of the matter and say that this focus entirely misses and distorts the focus of scripture. Rather than a forensic focus, I think scripture takes a familial focus of sin and salvation. Sin is a violation of another person, an act of alienation. We are alienated and hostile toward God and each other, in need of reconciliation and forgiveness. While it does play a role, what I anticipate most isn't a declaration of righteous standing before God, but rather a declaration that I am His beloved child- not legal status but close relationship restored.
As to Jews and the Mosaic covenant. Jews are covered under God's grace, just as Gentiles are. Jews are not saved by keeping the Law- they are saved by believing in the One True God and being faithful to Him. For the Jew as for the Gentile, salvation is by grace. The Mosaic covenant has little to nothing to do with salvation. God had already chosen Israel hundreds of years prior, so the covenant is not an agreement to be His people (they already were), but to serve Him exclusively with the prescribed worship. In exchange for observing the Law, God blessed Israel. Violations of the covenant did not bring death (unless so stipulated in the covenant), but rather threatened their special relationship with God. The sacrifices were not a matter of soteriological status- they didn't deal with guilt- but were a matter of covenant restoration, as it were. The sacrifices were how Israel preserved their covenant relationship with God when they failed at other points of the Law. It is vitally important to understand that Jews were not seeking to be saved! This wasn't an issue. They were seeking to maintain their special relationship with God as laid out in the covenant.
Penal Substitution, well...the primary focus of this theory of atonement is the judicial or forensic language and themes of scripture. By this way of thinking sin is "missing the mark" and causes "guilt" and sin accrues a "penalty" that must be "paid", ultimately with death. I would go right to the heart of the matter and say that this focus entirely misses and distorts the focus of scripture. Rather than a forensic focus, I think scripture takes a familial focus of sin and salvation. Sin is a violation of another person, an act of alienation. We are alienated and hostile toward God and each other, in need of reconciliation and forgiveness. While it does play a role, what I anticipate most isn't a declaration of righteous standing before God, but rather a declaration that I am His beloved child- not legal status but close relationship restored.
As to Jews and the Mosaic covenant. Jews are covered under God's grace, just as Gentiles are. Jews are not saved by keeping the Law- they are saved by believing in the One True God and being faithful to Him. For the Jew as for the Gentile, salvation is by grace. The Mosaic covenant has little to nothing to do with salvation. God had already chosen Israel hundreds of years prior, so the covenant is not an agreement to be His people (they already were), but to serve Him exclusively with the prescribed worship. In exchange for observing the Law, God blessed Israel. Violations of the covenant did not bring death (unless so stipulated in the covenant), but rather threatened their special relationship with God. The sacrifices were not a matter of soteriological status- they didn't deal with guilt- but were a matter of covenant restoration, as it were. The sacrifices were how Israel preserved their covenant relationship with God when they failed at other points of the Law. It is vitally important to understand that Jews were not seeking to be saved! This wasn't an issue. They were seeking to maintain their special relationship with God as laid out in the covenant.
It was part of the Mosaic covenant, which was made with Israel, of which I am not a descendant. I certainly appreciate the Sabbath and think that observing a day of rest and worship is beneficial, but I don't think it has to be a certain day for Gentiles or that we violate it by lighting a fire, carrying a load or so forth.
I'm sorry distinctive, but you wrong, (and I don't mean it sarcastically or disrepectfully) Yeshua kept Sabbath and we are to imitate Him. The 4th commandment is to Keep the Sabbath day Holy and everything that goes with it. No where in scripture at anytime does it say we can pick what day we want. This world has taught us to be on the go so much, people make excuses to avoid Sabbath. So I ask do you think the fourth commandment is not for you? Shalom
As I said before, Jesus was also a chaste, Aramaic speaking, itinerant preacher. Are we to imitate these things as well? He wore a tunic and sandals, washed his feet when entering a home, cursed plants and drove people with whips. Jesus traveled on foot, picked grain from other people's crops, and told people to make sacrifices according to the Mosaic Law. Am I to argue that unless you do all of these things as well, you are falling short in your imitation of Jesus?
The imitation of Jesus that we are called to is not to act as though we share his language, culture, and history, but rather to genuinely share his heart and character. Jesus kept Sabbath because he was a Jew, a Son of the Commandments. The Mosaic covenant was and is only for Israel. God and His righteousness, love, and blessings, are for ALL people who would love and worship Him alone as God.
The imitation of Jesus that we are called to is not to act as though we share his language, culture, and history, but rather to genuinely share his heart and character. Jesus kept Sabbath because he was a Jew, a Son of the Commandments. The Mosaic covenant was and is only for Israel. God and His righteousness, love, and blessings, are for ALL people who would love and worship Him alone as God.
[QUOTE]As I said before, Jesus was also a chaste, Aramaic speaking, itinerant preacher. Are we to imitate these things as well? He wore a tunic and sandals, washed his feet when entering a home, cursed plants and drove people with whips. Jesus traveled on foot, picked grain from other people's crops, and told people to make sacrifices according to the Mosaic Law. Am I to argue that unless you do all of these things as well, you are falling short in your imitation of Jesus?
[/QUOTE]
Now you're just nick picking, you know exactly what Yeshua was talking about when He said to imitate Him.
I'm really sorry distinctive, but that is just lame, "Jesus kept Sabbath because He was a jew?" So let me get this straight, are you saying that none of the Ten Commandments pertain to you? That you're just under grace and it doesn't really matter how you live your life?
The Mosaic covenant was and is only for Israel? Well that's funny, because in the NT it says we are Israel. Galatians 3:26, Romans 11, and Ephesians 2.
1John 2:3-4 says, "If we claim we know Him and don't keep His commandments we are a LIAR.
So please explain how your logic fits all this.
[/QUOTE]
Now you're just nick picking, you know exactly what Yeshua was talking about when He said to imitate Him.
I'm really sorry distinctive, but that is just lame, "Jesus kept Sabbath because He was a jew?" So let me get this straight, are you saying that none of the Ten Commandments pertain to you? That you're just under grace and it doesn't really matter how you live your life?
The Mosaic covenant was and is only for Israel? Well that's funny, because in the NT it says we are Israel. Galatians 3:26, Romans 11, and Ephesians 2.
1John 2:3-4 says, "If we claim we know Him and don't keep His commandments we are a LIAR.
So please explain how your logic fits all this.
K
Colossians 2:16-17 , the apostle Paul declares “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.”
Romans 14:5 “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
If you want to keep the Sabbath, it's okay. But if you don't that's fine too.
This is how I stand, without any intent of offending somebody's faith about the sabbath :
Jews kept the sabbath as a remembrance of God resting after creating all things. It was not a day of worship only, but of rest, even buying or selling things that day was prohibited and deserving of death. Jews at that time had to work to gain God's favor, and the sabbath was the day of rest for them after offering sacrifices and doing labor in the law.
When Jesus died in the cross He already gave us rest, so there is no need of sabbath. I could say He is my sabbath, because He is my rest. I no longer need to labor to gain my justification after God. We must worship God everyday, but the rest we already have it.