Christians for Peace

[loveschild]

War and rumors of war. There will always be wars. The old testament was to show that if God is with you you win the war. If God is not with you you lose the war. There's no place in the bible that says we're not going to have to fight. Says we will always be attacked. Says for us to always be ready. There's demons in all kinds of evil people who want to kill us. We are to pray for peace that is Gods will. No where does it say for us to lay down and let evil destroy us.

 

[NoahsMom]

Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; This is when he found them in the temple....dont sound to me like he was pleased, said he made a cat a nine tails, and they scattered.....

 

[Groundhog]

Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; This is when he found them in the temple....dont sound to me like he was pleased, said he made a cat a nine tails, and they scattered.....

Jesus has the right to use violence, because he is the one who will judge all. That is not our right. "'Vengeance is mine' declares the Lord."

 

[BLC]

Again, I'm not talking about what we want to do, or what we think is right. I'm talking about what scripture says, and what Jesus taught. Jesus didn't say, "Turn the other cheek, unless the person is being really harsh." I understand the human urge to defend or retaliate. Do you have scriptures that back up these positions? I've posted a website that is filled with verses that contradict this point of view, and so you can view all of those there. But those of you, like NoahsMom and BLC, who advocate physical violence, do you have any New Testament verses that back up your views? If you do, please post.

I'm reminded of something Jon Stewart, the guy who hosts The Daily Show, said once. (Whether or not you like Jon Stewart, pay attention to the truth of his statement): "If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values: they're hobbies."

Why does it have to be from the NT? All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for... instruction in righteousness (2Tim 3:16). Here is one that always come to mind concerning people that cause strife and contention and I thought you might like to hear it.

Prov 18:6
(NIV) 'A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating'.
(KJV) 'A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes'.

Many times I have been at that place because of the wickedness of a contentious person, but have refrained because it was wisdom to do so. All those verses that you and Baruch have brought out, I have known for more than 35 years, inside and out, and have lived by them according to the wisdom of grace and not according to the law. No one has broken into my home yet, that I would have to exercise myself that way, but I would in a heartbeat. I know a man that went home from work early and caught his wife in bed with another man. He dragged that man out on the front lawn half naked and proceeded to beat the ever lovin' peace out of him for violating his wife and she was the guilty party. Every time he approached God on his knees about that day and how he handled it, he said I wanted God to convict me that I handled it wrong, but conviction never came. You might not find any NT support for actions that come through wisdom. Wisdom is always justified of its children and they have the liberty before God to exercise faith in all the wisdom of God and not just the pacifist part like you are straining and being an advocate of.

 

[NoahsMom]

You are absolutely right Vengence does belong to the Lord. Im talkin about isolated incidences, where say your attacked by someone thats just out to hurt ppl. I dont condone violence, or throwin down with anybody that will raise their fist, Im just bein honest and sayin basic instinct is to protect, to fight back even. I cant say i have made it that far yet, as Gods not thru workin on me yet. I admire you for what you believe in , and I have never read yet where Jesus went around knockin folks heads off, and the bible does say to be angry and sin not, Im just sayin for me, in the instances i have given, i dont really know what my reaction would be, prolly not a very good one tho. I guess its something i need to pray more about.

 

[RoboOp]

My wife or daughter is being attacked.

I have three choices:

1. Engage in no violence. Tell her "turn the other cheek, honey" while I watch, and say "Lord forgive them, for they know not what they do."

2. Call the police and let them do the violence instead of me (though actually it will probably be too late by the time they arrive).

3. As an act of mercy on my wife/daughter, and as a duty to be her protector, defend her by carrying out some violent act against the attacker(s).

Which would the Lord prefer?

 

[Baruch]

War and rumors of war. There will always be wars. The old testament was to show that if God is with you you win the war. If God is not with you you lose the war. There's no place in the bible that says we're not going to have to fight. Says we will always be attacked. Says for us to always be ready. There's demons in all kinds of evil people who want to kill us. We are to pray for peace that is Gods will. No where does it say for us to lay down and let evil destroy us.

Quite to the contrary.

During the great tribulation, there are these instructions:

Revelation 13:7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Of all the poeple you would think you would be allowed to kill would be those with the mark of the beast. I mean, why not? They are doomed to the Lake of Fire for having the mark, and yet the believers are instructed not to retaliate. Seems like making a run for it and hiding is all they can do besides dying for their faith by starvation, by the elements, or by the sword.

Ephesians 6:10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; 19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Acts 7: 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Now if Stephen has turned around, taking your advise, would Saul ever have been converted on the road to Damascus?

We are to be witnesses of Jesus Christ.. as ambassaders.

I trust Jesus to help me live as His since assuredly, I cannot boast of what He would have me do (since I would be doing the right thing with His help) nor can I boast of what I would do as an American since justice/vengeance in an immediate since is the norm. Describe any situation, and I would probably think of a fleshly reflexive response, but I trust Jesus to help me live as His and thus I attest that the power in living the christian life is of God, not of us.

John 1: 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So do not be surprised if you find yourself laying donw your life so that someone else may believe.

John 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

That verse above is not to be used as preaching against war now....

Romans 13:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves ****ation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

But when the war against the saints start... that is a whole lot different than fighting for your country for which God does not expect us to fight. In other words, God had never endorsed the Crusades.

 

[Baruch]

My wife or daughter is being attacked.

I have three choices:

1. Engage in no violence. Tell her "turn the other cheek, honey" while I watch, and say "Lord forgive them, for they know not what they do."

2. Call the police and let them do the violence instead of me (though actually it will probably be too late by the time they arrive).

3. As an act of mercy on my wife/daughter, and as a duty to be her protector, defend her by carrying out some violent act against the attacker(s).

Which would the Lord prefer?

I trust in the Lord for situations like that. I do not think any standard guide can be given, thus it is to the Good Shepherd to lead and to enable us.

By whole families, believers in India were recently hunted down and killed by an enraged mob of Hinuistic neighbors incited to riot by a slanderous rumor that one of their famous Hindu leaders was slain by christians. Some converted to Hinduism to save their lives while still making pleas for help to come anyway. What would you have done if your family was with you?

One could say, "Well, if we die, at least I know where me and my family are going".

Then what about here in America then? Tough call. In my flesh I would say.. make like Rambo. Give anyone pause for breaking into any home by setting an example of blinding, mauling, and torturing the home invader, but that is the media's influence of which the Lord is leading me away from watching such darkness. I trust Him to help me do the right thing.

Proverbs 16:9A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Below is a Psalm in how to cast our anxiety about home invaders to the Lord.

Psalm 17: 1Hear the right, O LORD, attend unto my cry, give ear unto my prayer, that goeth not out of feigned lips. 2Let my sentence come forth from thy presence; let thine eyes behold the things that are equal. 3Thou hast proved mine heart; thou hast visited me in the night; thou hast tried me, and shalt find nothing; I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress. 4Concerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer. 5Hold up my goings in thy paths, that my footsteps slip not. 6I have called upon thee, for thou wilt hear me, O God: incline thine ear unto me, and hear my speech. 7Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee from those that rise up against them. 8Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings, 9From the wicked that oppress me, from my deadly enemies, who compass me about. 10They are inclosed in their own fat: with their mouth they speak proudly. 11They have now compassed us in our steps: they have set their eyes bowing down to the earth; 12Like as a lion that is greedy of his prey, and as it were a young lion lurking in secret places. 13Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword: 14From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes. 15As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Who knows how many times the Lord has protected you from home invaders by use of the police or even angels? But yet, saints have been killed for their faith.

1 Peter 5: 6Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

 

[BLC]

Baruch,

There are many churches that have security available at every service because you never know when you are going to be visited by a 'crazy'. If a 'crazy' visits your church and has some kind of problem with your pastor or church and they walk down the center isle with a loaded weapon or screaming at the top of their lungs, are you going to let them have free course or are you going to restrain them? If you are getting personal threats from individuals because they do not like the way you live your life as a Christian or the message of the cross you preach, because it has caused division in their family, are you going to be on your guard as a watchmen and do everything you can to protect you and your family? Iniquity is abounding everywhere and the love of many is waxing cold, is it not.

The shepherd is to protect and feed the flock. If the wolves come, and they will, does the shepherd allow the wolves to devour the sheep or does he use his staff and his own body to fight them off? It is very foolish and unwise to be a pacifist, especially in the days we live in. There is a very important practical side to being a Christian. Think of all the subjective and objective things we do daily, to protect ourselves and others from harm or danger do to aggression, negligence and ignorance. We take precautions and prepare ourselves with what is available to us. That is part of being a watchman and a steward. If we neglect these things we run into trouble and cause trouble for others. You don't leave a child unattended in a home alone when you have a gas range that can result in death and destruction. You get vaccinations to keep from getting dangerous viruses that can lead to death. If you are attacked, you defend yourself any way you can because the motive of the one that attacked you cares not for your life.

Motored vehicles are mandated to have bumpers to protect in case of a collision. You would not buy a car that had no bumpers would you? There are those that would come after you out of convenience to rob or molest you, not even knowing you are a Christian. Do you let them do it without fighting back? We live in a civilized society with lots of uncivilized behavior. There are times that we have to take certain action even though we do not want to. Suicide is not active but passive. A person that allows circumstances, situations, thoughts, fears and imaginations to initiate control over their life is being acted upon and they are receiving the action of those initiations. That is passive. It becomes active on their part when they respond to those initiations and contemplate taking their life. In every single case it is outside the will of God and is against life in every conceivable way.

People who are pacifist are vulnerable to suicidal tendencies. They easily become quitters and give up because things are not going right for them. They do not overcome adversity. They have problems with inferiority complexes. They are appalled by aggression or aggressive behavior. They would rather be a responder instead of an initiator. They have never gotten beyond mommy whipping their rear end, making their bed and feeding them pabulum. They probably like the picture of Jesus that portraits Him with feminine features. Can you imagine being a wounded soldier in a foxhole, during WW2, with a pacifist. I would not want my life in the hands of that person. If I was on the operating table and something came up and my pressure dropped, I don't want to be in the hands of a doctor that can't think straight or says, 'Now what do I do'? Real soldiers of Christ are not pacifist and Jesus was not one either, Moses was not, Elijah was not, David was not, Joshua and Caleb were not, Sampson was not, Rahab the harlot wasn't, Deborah was not, Esther was not, Peter was not, Paul was not and many others. Look at what happened to King Saul when he got passive and didn't do what God told him to do. God never chose a pacifist or if He did they didn't stay that way for long.

 

[Baruch]

There are many churches that have security available at every service because you never know when you are going to be visited by a 'crazy'. If a 'crazy' visits your church and has some kind of problem with your pastor or church and they walk down the center isle with a loaded weapon or screaming at the top of their lungs, are you going to let them have free course or are you going to restrain them?

By the time anyone realizes a crazy person, it would be usually too late. Several incidents inthe news would testify to that, but subdue the attacker? Sure.. but only of God is willing.

If you are getting personal threats from individuals because they do not like the way you live your life as a Christian or the message of the cross you preach, because it has caused division in their family, are you going to be on your guard as a watchmen and do everything you can to protect you and your family? Iniquity is abounding everywhere and the love of many is waxing cold, is it not.

Love can wax cold even by that standard. If Stephen had turned around and killed Saul in self defense, would there have been an encounter on the road to Damascus for Saul?

What of the whole families of believers slain in India by Hinduist mobs for not renouncing Christ to convert to Hinduism as a retaliatory act for one of their leaders slain supposedly by christians?

The shepherd is to protect and feed the flock. If the wolves come, and they will, does the shepherd allow the wolves to devour the sheep or does he use his staff and his own body to fight them off? It is very foolish and unwise to be a pacifist, especially in the days we live in. There is a very important practical side to being a Christian. Think of all the subjective and objective things we do daily, to protect ourselves and others from harm or danger do to aggression, negligence and ignorance. We take precautions and prepare ourselves with what is available to us. That is part of being a watchman and a steward. If we neglect these things we run into trouble and cause trouble for others. You don't leave a child unattended in a home alone when you have a gas range that can result in death and destruction. You get vaccinations to keep from getting dangerous viruses that can lead to death. If you are attacked, you defend yourself any way you can because the motive of the one that attacked you cares not for your life.

All I read is an American talking here, not as a believer in Christ.

Motored vehicles are mandated to have bumpers to protect in case of a collision. You would not buy a car that had no bumpers would you? There are those that would come after you out of convenience to rob or molest you, not even knowing you are a Christian. Do you let them do it without fighting back? We live in a civilized society with lots of uncivilized behavior. There are times that we have to take certain action even though we do not want to. Suicide is not active but passive. A person that allows circumstances, situations, thoughts, fears and imaginations to initiate control over their life is being acted upon and they are receiving the action of those initiations. That is passive. It becomes active on their part when they respond to those initiations and contemplate taking their life. In every single case it is outside the will of God and is against life in every conceivable way.

Reasonings of man

People who are pacifist are vulnerable to suicidal tendencies. They easily become quitters and give up because things are not going right for them. They do not overcome adversity. They have problems with inferiority complexes. They are appalled by aggression or aggressive behavior. They would rather be a responder instead of an initiator. They have never gotten beyond mommy whipping their rear end, making their bed and feeding them pabulum. They probably like the picture of Jesus that portraits Him with feminine features. Can you imagine being a wounded soldier in a foxhole, during WW2, with a pacifist. I would not want my life in the hands of that person. If I was on the operating table and something came up and my pressure dropped, I don't want to be in the hands of a doctor that can't think straight or says, 'Now what do I do'? Real soldiers of Christ are not pacifist and Jesus was not one either, Moses was not, Elijah was not, David was not, Joshua and Caleb were not, Sampson was not, Rahab the harlot wasn't, Deborah was not, Esther was not, Peter was not, Paul was not and many others. Look at what happened to King Saul when he got passive and didn't do what God told him to do. God never chose a pacifist or if He did they didn't stay that way for long

And yet to be Christ like... nothing in that quote above sounds anything like Him.

 

[mcap]

Whiteknite, if I may without offending... movies are part of the reason that we're in this violent mess anyway. Desensitizing and socially conditioning kids (and adults) to accept violence as a form of entertainment is one of Satans primary tools. I haven't seen any movies about Jesus on primetime, but I can't count the number of gunshots I heard on tv this week. Just saying... life imitates art, and art imitates life, it goes both ways... feeds itself

That is exactly why we have 10 year olds with guns. Xbox and Playstation can also be thanked.

 

[Raheem]

I'm is apart of the chatgroup for this peace. no one is postig in there

 

[mcap]

I am all for peace and good will towards man but I truly do not think God would want us to stand by and let our spouse or anyone else for that matter be harmed.I believe we have a duty to protect all mankind from anyone attempting to harm them.
My sister-in-law was putting groceries in her car at a local store when a young man attacks her,knife in hand.She told me at least 25 people walked past them and saw them struggling and only one man,after loading up his car offered to call 911.He offered no physical help at all.
Is there anyone on this site that would stand by and allow this to happen?What about a family member?Would you stand by and allow a thug to rape and murder your child?You can be peaceful towards others,which I believe is what Jesus taught and also stand up against those who do wrong.

 

[BLC]

I like the story when David refused to put on Saul's armour and battle the giant of the Philistines. He looked at that filthy Philistine and said, 'Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God'. Then he proceeded to take his sling and the five smooth stones and do battle. He was skilled in this weapon and with one shot put down the giant. But, David did not stop there. He took Goiliath's own sword and cut his head off and carried it back to Jerusalem. David savoured in the victory and wanted all of Israel to do the same. David was not a pacifist nor did he like it when the enemies of Israel mocked and defied its armies of the living God.

Would you defend another believer with your life? Would you also defend your family in the same way. Would you fight for your country in the time of battle? Are you thankful for those that have fought and have shed their blood for the freedom you have today, even if that means the freedom to be a pacifist? I speak as a man because I am a man. Freedom is a gift from God that we must preserve with all diligence less it be taken from us. If without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins, likewise there is no liberty to be a free people without the blood of its citizens. It was not the pacifists that assured our freedom from being an oppressed people and Jesus was not a pacifist when He went to the cross to fight for our right to be free from sin and death by shedding His blood. The cross was the greatest battle ever fought and our Lord was resurrected in victory, triumphing over death and the grave.

You can't be a pacifist and walk by faith in Christ's finished work. You can't be a pacifist and walk in love knowing what Christ did for us when He became sin for us. You can't be a pacifist and put on the whole armour of God. You can't be a pacifist and lay your life down for one another. The disciples became pacifists when they forsook Christ at the cross and went back to their fishing nets, but He never judged them for it. If you want to continue to be a pacifist, God won't judge or condemn you but He sure would like to onvert you!

 

[swat4christ]

Not sure if this is the best forum for this post, but I didn't think any other forum seemed better.

I've started a group called "Christians for Peace" that I hope will become a place for any Christians who believe in the importance of Jesus' anti-violence, anti-retaliation message, or those interested in it. Please join!

Well, first of all we must begin by understanding how your group lines up Scripture. Wouldn’t you agree that should be the first step? So, let’s start with just a small sampling of Scripture and then we can broaden our scope from there. Let’s begin with Matthew 23:1-39; Mark 3:1-6; John 2:13-16; 2Thessalonians 1:6-9; 2Thessalonians 2:10-12; Revelation 19:11-21. Now, wouldn’t you agree if your group doesn’t line up with Scripture, that you, or I, or anyone else shouldn’t have anything to do with it? So, how is it going so far? Jeremiah 48:10

 

[Raheem]

Sir there is none posting in this group

 

[swat4christ]

beautyinthestruggle - Thanks for your post. The "just war" theory makes sense, I think. It seems right to us that at some point we must take up arms, if only to protect the innocent. I certainly don't think anyone who thinks this way is evil; quite the opposite, in fact: we want justice to be done, so when we see injustice continuing, we feel the need to intervene and execute justice ourselves. I just watched the movie "Taken" this weekend, about a man whose daughter has been kidnapped: the man finds her, and does not hesitate to kill anyone along the way who was involved in her kidnapping. Who can blame that man? Where I in his place, I may have acted the same way. Still, if we go by the principles laid out by Christ and the other writers of the New Testament, it becomes difficult to justify violence. Christians are to bless our enemies, bless those who curse us, repay evil with good, etc, and leave room for God's vengeance. It is God who will judge and execute justice. The role is God's alone. We are to be humble, peaceful, and loving, no matter what, and even to our enemies. Remember the situation of the early Christians: they were an oppressed minority in a brutal empire, and many were killed for their beliefs. They did no harm to anyone. By human standards, they had a right to retaliate, but did not, because to do so would have been contradictory to one of their core principles.

BLC - Baruch did a pretty good job answering your post, but I feel the need to say something. Your post was frightening to me. To hear a Christian talk this way makes me shudder. I don't want to make this post about personal attacks between people, and I hope you were not attacking me in your post. I'm talking about what scripture says and what Jesus taught.

As a final note, I'm not starting this thread because I want to berate people who condone "just war". I think we can all agree that violence is not good, and that those of you who condone violence believe that it should only be used when deemed absolutely necessary (to protect the innocent). I sympathize. I did not always believe in pacifism. I thought it was something weak and naive people believed, but I've come to see the truth and beauty of it. Pacifism seems to me to be the only scriptural position, because we are never authorized to use violence, and all the principles of the New Testament point toward pacifism.

AMAZING STATEMENT. You say "because we are never authorized to use violence..." but have you never read Romans 13:3-4? What about that?! That is New Testament, Pauline, and it can't get any clearer than that! You might also check out Ecclesiastes 3:8 just for fun. You see, ALL THE TIME is not the right time for all these things. There is a time for war and there is a time for peace. Wisdom allows a man to understand the difference. Jeremiah 48:10

 

[Baruch]

I like the story when David refused to put on Saul's armour and battle the giant of the Philistines. He looked at that filthy Philistine and said, 'Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God'. Then he proceeded to take his sling and the five smooth stones and do battle. He was skilled in this weapon and with one shot put down the giant. But, David did not stop there. He took Goiliath's own sword and cut his head off and carried it back to Jerusalem. David savoured in the victory and wanted all of Israel to do the same. David was not a pacifist nor did he like it when the enemies of Israel mocked and defied its armies of the living God.

Matthew 5:10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. 13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven......


38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Again, I ask you to share the tale of the baseball brawl as to what it was that declared a "righteous beating" from you and your team.

What significance of feeling the Presence of God in the event other than it felt good to commit retaliation?

For all the hype that Pentecostals and Charismatics put on a continual filling of the Spirit and being empowered by these manifestations.... what difference are there as standing apart from the world?

 

[Baruch]

Would you defend another believer with your life?

God may lead me to die with him, sharing our faith. Remember how Jesus was about to be grabbed by the mob and tossed over a cliff? And yet He walked right through them. Where is that faith?

Would you also defend your family in the same way. Would you fight for your country in the time of battle?

Thanks for proving that the "holy laughter" movement is not of God for as much as any believer have "faith" in calling for that to come in the worship service, yet little is it applied when confronted with the enemy and yet signs were given for the unbelievers. Can you imagine waking up to a home invader laughing uncontrollably as God was protesting you and your family? All you have to do is call the police or witness to the home invader of the Good News of Jesus Christ.... but wait. That doesn't usually happen even after events like that in the worship service, huh?

Can you imagine all the Pentecostals and Charismatics on the frontline, drafted as the Pentagon's secret weapon as they call forth the Spirit oif God to fall on the enemies.. and then convert the bewildered enemy... and shoot the rest that refuses to believe? And yet we are just not seeing that happening, now are we?

Are you thankful for those that have fought and have shed their blood for the freedom you have today, even if that means the freedom to be a pacifist? I speak as a man because I am a man. Freedom is a gift from God that we must preserve with all diligence less it be taken from us.

Freedom is being taken away from us everyday and yet I do not see believers getting riled up to do away with these "communistic heathen rebels" in another bloody civil war, wiping out abortion clinics, kicking all ACLU and its supporters out of the country, physically beating the liars back for promoting evolution theory in schools and in science, and putting an end to all homosexual organization and thus their agendas for they would remove our freedom of speech and impose their beliefs and their way of life on us. And yet, Christ's Kingdom is not of this world... yet.

If without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins, likewise there is no liberty to be a free people without the blood of its citizens. It was not the pacifists that assured our freedom from being an oppressed people and Jesus was not a pacifist when He went to the cross to fight for our right to be free from sin and death by shedding His blood. The cross was the greatest battle ever fought and our Lord was resurrected in victory, triumphing over death and the grave.

Are we to have victory by the power of death and the grave?

You can't be a pacifist and walk by faith in Christ's finished work. You can't be a pacifist and walk in love knowing what Christ did for us when He became sin for us. You can't be a pacifist and put on the whole armour of God.

That is against the wiles of the devil. Do you have your armour on? It is not about being a pacifist as it is by His Word, about being perfect as Our Heavenly Father is. Are we witnesses of that faith?

You can't be a pacifist and lay your life down for one another. The disciples became pacifists when they forsook Christ at the cross and went back to their fishing nets, but He never judged them for it. If you want to continue to be a pacifist, God won't judge or condemn you but He sure would like to onvert you!

By the sword.. or by faith that Jesus Christ is Lord?

Explain why the saints in the great tribulation are not allowed to kill those with the mark of the beast that are destined for the Lake of Fire while war is ebing waged on the saints?

 

[Baruch]

AMAZING STATEMENT. You say "because we are never authorized to use violence..." but have you never read Romans 13:3-4? What about that?! That is New Testament, Pauline, and it can't get any clearer than that! You might also check out Ecclesiastes 3:8 just for fun. You see, ALL THE TIME is not the right time for all these things. There is a time for war and there is a time for peace. Wisdom allows a man to understand the difference. Jeremiah 48:10

Speaking from the individual believer's standpoint, we are not authorized by God to use violence as in to kill for God.

Romans 13 speaks of a governing ruling party of the nation you are living in.

Romans 13: 1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves ****ation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

But even then, we should trust the Lord as Our Good Shepherd as when that is applicable for christian Japanese fought for Japan in WWII, and they could point to those verses as to why they did it.

We have a relationship with God through the Lord Jesus Christ and thereby we get to know Him when we trust Him to lead us in the way we ought to go. We are to trust Him (as even I need His help with that...) that He would lead me away from temptations that would be too much for me to handle as He would also provide an escape for those fiery trials when I am in them and help me through them. If God be so concern about us in our walk with Him privately, then so will He with our walk publicly.

Most of His words are for us to be like the Father in Heaven, but it is not in our flesh to do it. The power in living the christian life is of God as He will enable us to do His will when we cannot see it in us to do it. It is not normal to love our enemies, and take offenses, but when we look to Christ in that He died for us while we were yet sinners, then we can lean on Him to love our enemies as He loved us.

I cannot even say that I would not go Rambo on anyone for no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak so that is why the just shall live by faith as our hope is in the Son of God to help us live as His as well as resting in Him for eternal life.

But of course, the many mighty men and nobles that are called to make a commitment to follow Christ for the assurances of salvation and adding to that as if it was not enough with the Promise Keepers' program, one can see why many believers are resorting to their own power and their own flesh religiously, but by doing so, they are not serving the Lord Jesus Christ for without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Too many believers are being "Americanized" by the media to not look beyond the letter to the relationship we have in Jesus Christ.