Christians for Peace

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Groundhog

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#1
Not sure if this is the best forum for this post, but I didn't think any other forum seemed better.

I've started a group called "Christians for Peace" that I hope will become a place for any Christians who believe in the importance of Jesus' anti-violence, anti-retaliation message, or those interested in it. Please join!
 
Jan 9, 2009
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#2
you can count me in, Groundhog. I never did like violence. Of course, in a movie it's okay. But that is only entertainment
 
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Groundhog

Guest
#3
Ha ha. Cool. Welcome, whiteknite.
 
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Groundhog

Guest
#4
Any other Christians for peace here? You can visit this link to read more about the Christian pacifist position.

http://www.plowcreek.org/bible_pacifism.htm

And please join the group "Christians for Peace"! Thanks.
 
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faith79

Guest
#5
Hi, I checked out the web-site. Just a couple things that struck me
Pacifism: personal? family? church? nation? On what level(s)?
What about the Old Testament? Does anything there apply to us now, in terms of pacifism, such as - I'm thinking of the book of Nehemiah.
Just food for thought.
Blessings!
 
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Groundhog

Guest
#6
Well, what about the old testament are you referring to?

If you're referring to war, war was only allowed when God commanded it, because he would deliver the victory. So yes, there are authorized wars in the OT, but there is nothing in the NT to suggest that we are allowed to engage in war. In fact, the teachings of the NT are contrary to any pro-war or pro-violence stance.

As for who the pacifism applies to, it applies to us. Christians. So they apply in every way when we're talking about Christians, just like all other NT guidelines.

And what about Nehemiah are you thinking about?
 
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monty28

Guest
#7
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36 Words of Christ
Hi, I wrestle with this one quite a bit, I was almost kicked off the chat site for even bringing this up. I don't know what to do about self defense. Jesus said turn the other cheek, but he was speaking of a slap on the face, an insult. Not a life or death situation.
He preached that the peace makers would be blessed..... I just don't know for sure
 
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monty28

Guest
#8
If he told His disciples to have a sword handy, I have to imagine that it wasn't for show and tell. I DO agree with the peace movement, and that that was part of His message... but these are the words of Jesus Himself....it begs serious study on both sides
 
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monty28

Guest
#9
Whiteknite, if I may without offending... movies are part of the reason that we're in this violent mess anyway. Desensitizing and socially conditioning kids (and adults) to accept violence as a form of entertainment is one of Satans primary tools. I haven't seen any movies about Jesus on primetime, but I can't count the number of gunshots I heard on tv this week. Just saying... life imitates art, and art imitates life, it goes both ways... feeds itself
 

NoahsDad

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2006
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#10
Whiteknite, if I may without offending... movies are part of the reason that we're in this violent mess anyway. Desensitizing and socially conditioning kids (and adults) to accept violence as a form of entertainment is one of Satans primary tools. I haven't seen any movies about Jesus on primetime, but I can't count the number of gunshots I heard on tv this week. Just saying... life imitates art, and art imitates life, it goes both ways... feeds itself
good point
 

RoboOp

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 4, 2008
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#11
I knew a Christian pacifist who, when asked, acknowledged that he wouldn't even defend his wife (if she were attacked), because he didn't believe that he should ever try to hurt anyone for any reason, or engage in any "violence" whatsoever. I hope no one here is that kind of "pacifist". :)
 

RoboOp

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 4, 2008
1,419
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#12
Groundhog, no offense but I sense some contradiction here. If you believe that your species evolved from primates and lower species, well did that happen through pacificism? I thought "survival of the fittest" -- the whole basis of the alleged evolution of the human species -- was a lot different from pacifism. *shrug*
 
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pogrud

Guest
#13
Just to tidy up:

'Survival of the fittest'. I think a lot of people who really understand evolution have come to dislike the way this term has been misunderstood. Fittest in terms of evolution means 'most suited to the environment' rather than 'the biggests and toughest'. For that reason there is not necessarily a contradiction between pacifism and evolution, possibly quite the opposite.

Say you had two species - one that physically fought against eachother to survive and another that worked together in harmony. After say 10 generations which is likely to have the bigger population? More, working together is likely to be more sucessful than less, working against eachother.
 
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Groundhog

Guest
#14
I knew a Christian pacifist who, when asked, acknowledged that he wouldn't even defend his wife (if she were attacked), because he didn't believe that he should ever try to hurt anyone for any reason, or engage in any "violence" whatsoever. I hope no one here is that kind of "pacifist". :)
Whether we like it or not, this is what the New Testament advocates. We are to leave vengeance up to God. Now we can use methods to try to deter violence, but to use violence against some one, even in self-defense, doesn't seem to be consistent with the NT. Robo, you seem to be someone with a very fundamentalist, literal view of scripture, so you, above all people, should know this about the New Testament. Non-violence and non-retribution is one of the foundational teachings. It seems right to us to defend ourselves or those we love, yet if I seek to harm someone or kill someone, how does that not become inconsistent with Jesus' teaching and the rest of the NT?

Groundhog, no offense but I sense some contradiction here. If you believe that your species evolved from primates and lower species, well did that happen through pacificism? I thought "survival of the fittest" -- the whole basis of the alleged evolution of the human species -- was a lot different from pacifism. *shrug*
This is a complete non sequitor. Yes, in another thread, I stood up for honest debate about evolution. I guess to you that means I believe in it. Even if that were true, it has nothing to do with this topic, and it seems that you are trying to discredit me rather than engage in honest debate about the topic at hand. Your previous comment that I quoted seems to be trying to do the same thing.

Thanks, Monty, for the scripture you mentioned. It is a confusing verse, since it seems to contradict everything else. Another verse people sometimes bring up is one that occurs in two or three gospels, where Jesus is warning his followers to be ready for war. There is no indication there, however, that his followers are to engage in war. (Matt. 24). If you read it for yourself, you'll see what I mean. But yes, your scripture certainly begs the question, and I don't have a good answer for you, except to say that when Peter used a sword to defend Jesus (certainly a person worth defending with violence if ever there was one), Jesus told him to put it away, and that "those who live by the sword will die by the sword". Also, the weight of evidence in the New Testament is for non-violence, even toward our enemies. I came across this website that may help you with that verse: http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/luke_22_36.htm

Look, folks. I know not many Christians in America grow up being taught this foundational New Testament principle. I was not. But the more I studied, the clearer it become. If you read these verses on the website I posted, and couple that with what we know about the early years of Christianity, it's obvious that Jesus meant for us to be non-violent, and that this is one of the way we are to be different than the world.
 
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beautyinthestruggle

Guest
#15
Catechism of the Catholic Church said:
The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. the gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. the power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
It seems to me that at a certain point one must sacrifice moral absolutism to defend the innocent, if nothing else.

What do you think, Groundhog?
 

BLC

Banned
Feb 28, 2009
711
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#16
Groundhog,

If you try to test this doctrine of being a pacifist don't test it on my home. If you come into my home unwelcome, I take that as a threat and you will have to pay the consequences. If I caught you stealing anything that belongs to me, again you will have to pay the consequences. If you don't believe in self defense then you need a few classes with a Christian by the name of 'Chuck Norris'. I know a beautiful Christian girl that one day found herself surrounded by a group of guys intimidating her and yelling ever kind of perversion imaginable. She was all alone at the time and felt very threatened. If a group of us 'bad boy' believers came walking by, that would be the last time they would ever do that.

I played ASA softball Division A for a church that was mocked by other teams every single game for a half dozen years and we just turned the other cheek. We had a great softball team and beat the pants off many of them to become the state champs, but one day they went too far and God said, no more turning the other cheek. One by one we took care of all the mockers and big mouths that couldn't back up what they say. One game ended in a donnybrook because of these scoffers and God was well pleased with our actions. You would not believe the respect that we got after that and the number of people that came to Christ as good fruit. The presence of God backed us up because God is not a pacifist.

We go on the streets every week to ministry the gospel in many cities and towns and don't think for a moment that we are not prepared to deal with what might happen with uncontrolled and unconstrained individuals. If you are going to let someone beat up on your wife, don't let me catch you alone especially if she was my sister. The first warning might be verbal but after that, God only knows. I know what Jesus said when the soldiers came to take Him away and the disciple drew his sword. The scriptures had to be fulfilled and the disciple was responding in the flesh and not in the Spirit. Don't get what Christ said confused with being a pacifist because the next time He comes after the rapture is will be according to vengeance.
 
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Baruch

Guest
#17
Don't get what Christ said confused with being a pacifist because the next time He comes after the rapture is will be according to vengeance.
But He will do it. Vengeance is His. The saints may be with Him, but that is it. He doesn't need them to have vengeance. He will just speak and it is done.

I played ASA softball Division A for a church that was mocked by other teams every single game for a half dozen years and we just turned the other cheek. We had a great softball team and beat the pants off many of them to become the state champs, but one day they went too far and God said, no more turning the other cheek. One by one we took care of all the mockers and big mouths that couldn't back up what they say. One game ended in a donnybrook because of these scoffers and God was well pleased with our actions. You would not believe the respect that we got after that and the number of people that came to Christ as good fruit. The presence of God backed us up because God is not a pacifist.
As for your actions, .......I do wonder if you are not asking Him if that was all right.

1 Timothy 3:2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

Titus 3: 6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

In the eyes of every American christian, you did right, even though you turned the other cheek as long as you did, but I am not so sure when the straw that broke the camel's back makes it okay to brawl. You never did explain what that last straw was. Is it something that can be preached as a guide or will others apply it in different ways as an excuse to brawl thus becoming a slippery slope for brawling?

I cannot say that I have never gotten into a fight. I cannot say that I have never gotten into a spiritual dark forces kind of a fight either.... course the battle was His. "I had asked the Lord how did it happened?" in regards to my last fight, and He told me that I was trying to please man. At face value, I did not know what He had meant right away, but then a moment later, I was trying to accomplish a necessity for the success of the business as I was getting tired of all the unruly disrespecting my authority as a warehouse manager as well as my person for being hard of hearing... getting in the way of things for me to accomplish the necessary task... so I was trying to please man.

As Jesus taught to overcome eveil with good, can you quote any of His sayings that it is okay to do what you did? I am not sure there are any. Thus I wonder in regards to that situation... if the Lord would have had you done it differently. As a public witness, I do wonder what you had all taught as a team.... that there is a limit.. that there is a time when one can brawl.

For the lives of your family and neighbor, it is love to subdue the trespasser, theif, home invader.. but the Lord would provide an escape to avoid such needless threats to personal injury and thus putting your family at risk afterwards when you could have vacated the premises, contact a neighbor, and call the police. Of course, when the moment is upon you, then I trust God to have me deal accordingly because it is not in me that is in my flesh to take that offense Christ-like, but living the christian life is of God and not of us. He has enabled me to take on even worse offenses at a later job than I ever did at the former for fighting... and believe me, that place would have been a site for postalism if Christ had not been in me. In that dog eat dog outfit of false images and defrauding the workers of their rightful wages through ego tripping over others in a Pharissitic style for the love of money, I cannot believe no one has blown the place up yet and all of its chain stores straight donw to the Home Office.

But goes to show how God allows the sun to shine on the evil as well as the good as Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief. He led me to suffer being defrauded and to leave a place that sows to the flesh of hatred, variance, strife, and etc. I thank Him for helping me to lose my life for His name's sake as my enemies continue to hound me at other two workplaces to find fault and cause offenses where I cannot make peace. Oppressed by a superior enemy, I do hate my life.

So why was all of this was happening? Why has the privacy of my life and the professionalism in my career be open to the hounders? As Joseph was thrown into slavery by his own brothers... as the eyes of the enemy were constantly on the Psalmist, so I find my life like Baruch as my life is a prey unto others so I was not to seek a life for myself anymore because evil is about to fall on all flesh.

Yeah, I take that to mean that the great tribulation is coming.. and thus before that.. the rapture.

Several times in my life I had asked God why I was here as seemingly pointless as my existence was and is. Several times I got the same answer.. "So that they may know why they were left behind."

I boast of nothing but in the Lord for He has delivered me through many offenses to bring me Home by His grace as I trust him to continue to do so to His glory as My Good Shepherd and My Saviour.

To think of how that sinner that had thrown black slaves overboard to save the sinking ship he was on, if anyone had killed him for it right then... there would be no hymnal called Amazing Grace.

Anyway, have you asked Jesus about the softball brawling incident? I really have to wonder what it was that broke that camel's back to brawl. Not exactly the same as someone's life being in danger.
 
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Groundhog

Guest
#18
beautyinthestruggle - Thanks for your post. The "just war" theory makes sense, I think. It seems right to us that at some point we must take up arms, if only to protect the innocent. I certainly don't think anyone who thinks this way is evil; quite the opposite, in fact: we want justice to be done, so when we see injustice continuing, we feel the need to intervene and execute justice ourselves. I just watched the movie "Taken" this weekend, about a man whose daughter has been kidnapped: the man finds her, and does not hesitate to kill anyone along the way who was involved in her kidnapping. Who can blame that man? Where I in his place, I may have acted the same way. Still, if we go by the principles laid out by Christ and the other writers of the New Testament, it becomes difficult to justify violence. Christians are to bless our enemies, bless those who curse us, repay evil with good, etc, and leave room for God's vengeance. It is God who will judge and execute justice. The role is God's alone. We are to be humble, peaceful, and loving, no matter what, and even to our enemies. Remember the situation of the early Christians: they were an oppressed minority in a brutal empire, and many were killed for their beliefs. They did no harm to anyone. By human standards, they had a right to retaliate, but did not, because to do so would have been contradictory to one of their core principles.

BLC - Baruch did a pretty good job answering your post, but I feel the need to say something. Your post was frightening to me. To hear a Christian talk this way makes me shudder. I don't want to make this post about personal attacks between people, and I hope you were not attacking me in your post. I'm talking about what scripture says and what Jesus taught.

As a final note, I'm not starting this thread because I want to berate people who condone "just war". I think we can all agree that violence is not good, and that those of you who condone violence believe that it should only be used when deemed absolutely necessary (to protect the innocent). I sympathize. I did not always believe in pacifism. I thought it was something weak and naive people believed, but I've come to see the truth and beauty of it. Pacifism seems to me to be the only scriptural position, because we are never authorized to use violence, and all the principles of the New Testament point toward pacifism.
 
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NoahsMom

Guest
#19
While I would not start a fight intentionally, and in normal circumstances would give 100% effort to keep things light , walk away whatever, Jesus did say turn the other cheek, I dont think he meant lay down and let someone beat the tar outta ya. I get what your sayin groundhog, you can attract more bees with honey than vinegar, but I gotta agree with BLC on alot of what he said. Lots of times I think it is shocking for ppl to hear a brother or sister in Christ sayin things of that nature, but in this day and time, ppl almost expect you to lay down and take a beatin cause your christian, and I think God would want us to defend ourselves, or children if someone were attacking us pysically. While I firmly believe God will show up and show up and keep us out of harm , protect us, I also know he gave me two arms, and if some nut job came at one of my kids, Id be inclined to swing em like windmills. Im just bein honest here, if You all think its wrong, or unGodly, im sorry, but im tellin the truth.
 
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Groundhog

Guest
#20
While I would not start a fight intentionally, and in normal circumstances would give 100% effort to keep things light , walk away whatever, Jesus did say turn the other cheek, I dont think he meant lay down and let someone beat the tar outta ya. I get what your sayin groundhog, you can attract more bees with honey than vinegar, but I gotta agree with BLC on alot of what he said. Lots of times I think it is shocking for ppl to hear a brother or sister in Christ sayin things of that nature, but in this day and time, ppl almost expect you to lay down and take a beatin cause your christian, and I think God would want us to defend ourselves, or children if someone were attacking us pysically. While I firmly believe God will show up and show up and keep us out of harm , protect us, I also know he gave me two arms, and if some nut job came at one of my kids, Id be inclined to swing em like windmills. Im just bein honest here, if You all think its wrong, or unGodly, im sorry, but im tellin the truth.
Again, I'm not talking about what we want to do, or what we think is right. I'm talking about what scripture says, and what Jesus taught. Jesus didn't say, "Turn the other cheek, unless the person is being really harsh." I understand the human urge to defend or retaliate. Do you have scriptures that back up these positions? I've posted a website that is filled with verses that contradict this point of view, and so you can view all of those there. But those of you, like NoahsMom and BLC, who advocate physical violence, do you have any New Testament verses that back up your views? If you do, please post.

I'm reminded of something Jon Stewart, the guy who hosts The Daily Show, said once. (Whether or not you like Jon Stewart, pay attention to the truth of his statement): "If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values: they're hobbies."
 
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