The Noahide Laws

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would you take the Noahide Oath?

  • yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • no

    Votes: 14 100.0%

  • Total voters
    14
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
what a joke!
israel is a racist fascist terrorist country ruthless in its occupation and lying to world.
only amercians believe it to be otherwise, which is handy...since you are the ones sending money guns and horses.

"Israel for JEWS only". didn't some guy with a mustache in germany say stuff like that in WW2?

but its okay for israel! and WE'LL HELP!

but what's use.
thanks Scofield.
If I spent thousands of years with people hating me and wanting to kill me just because of my heritage. I would be doing the same thing. (in fact I wish the US would do it now!)

Scofield has nothing to do with what is going on. Why are so many people so spent on the past?? WHO CARES!!

Is God going to curse us!


The govt I live under now is robbing me blind. and doing far worst than these so called jews are.. You see me bashing them??

Who is in Control?? God or man??
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
some people.

we here about sex scandals and everything else a candidate or his family does. Yet we did not hear about this during either mans run for pres. !!
sex scandals? he abdicated because his cozy relationship with hitler was bringin' heat....embarassing the 'family'.

As I said. (And I do love you zone) The internet can say anything. Don't believe everything you see on the internet.!
go spend 5 years at the Library then (like i did).

If a Bush was selling stuff to nazi's with two years left before the war was up.. while millions of our men had already died. I think we would have heard of it. And they would have been tried for treason.

THINK!!
you're going into a total police state lockdown since 9-11 and you think treason is an option?
what does the Patriot Act say about you as a citizen EG?

where'd your money go in '08?

treason? i'm afraid america runs on Executive orders now bud. the rest is just a puppet show.

love ya EG but really.
'some people'

who did 9-11 EG? if you can answer that single question, you'll know the truth.
but then you'd have to do something with it.

love
z
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,852
1,565
113
thats not quite so ,,,,maby "prodject camolot" is a program u.s.army was listed as active in the 50's,,, then decomissioned but in the 90's reserfaced that it wasent abbandoned,,,,,,,,after ww2 us did studdies on several countries.poland ect that it was easer to control them with the info in their "libraries,radio,newspapers" ect. than to do it by force,,,, that is to controll what they "thought was going on in the world"
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,852
1,565
113
that is as christian i only believe in the one conspericy "decieved the earth",,,,,,that god warns us about, so to be honest if the deval was going to "decieve us',,, then we should look long and hard at whats on "the internet" and what is in the "libraries" and what is on the "t.v.",radio,newspapers,,,,ect,ect. those are the only way we could be "decieved",,,,,,,and if someone came along and tried to "write a book and tell the truth",,, well if the devals in charge of the gov's. do you think he publish it?,,,,put yourself in his shoes,,,,,,,youd think "he knows dont publish it",,,,, he aint got a clue "publish it",,,,,,,,,,,,,,and we have the lords voice "such a strong delusion that if it were possible even the elect"
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
TALMUD & related texts (source of Noahide Laws)

from: jewishencyclopedia.com - Jesus


"The Jewish legends in regard to Jesus are found in three sources, each independent of the others—(1) in New Testament apocrypha and Christian polemical works, (2) in the Talmud and the Midrash, and (3) in the life of Jesus ("Toledot Yeshu'") that originated in the Middle Ages.

It is the tendency of all these sources to be-little the person of Jesus by ascribing to him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death. In view of their general character they are called indiscriminately legends."

"It is certain, in any case, that the rabbinical sources also regard Jesus as the "son of Pandera", although it is noteworthy that he is called also "Ben Sṭada" (Shab. 104b; Sanh. 67a)."

"According to Celsus (in Origen, "Contra Celsum," i. 28) and to the Talmud
(Shab. 104b), Jesus learned magic in Egypt and performed his miracles by means of it;"

"Different in nature is the witchcraft attributed to Jesus in the "Toledot."

"A passage of the Talmud (Sanh. 43a) ascribes five disciples to Jesus: "Matthai" (Matthew), "Nakai" (Luke), "Nezer" (Nazarene, a general designation for Christian in antiquity), "Boni" (probably the Nicodemus mentioned by John), and "Thoda" (Thaddæus). The following are mentioned in the "Toledot" (Huldricus, p. 35): "Simeon" (Peter), "Matthia" (Matthew), "Elikum" (Luke), "Mordecai" (Mark), "Thoda" (Thaddæus), and "Johannos" (John)—that is, the four evangelists plus Peter and Thaddæus. Paul is mentioned in another connection, and (p. 48) Judas "the betrayer": it is to be noted that the last-named does not occur at all in Talmudic legends."

"some medieval apologists for Judaism, as Naḥmanides and Salman Ẓebi, based on this fact their assertion that the "Yeshu'" mentioned in the Talmud was not identical with Jesus; this, however, is merely a subterfuge."

"Jesus performed all his miracles by means of magic"

~

uh oh.....
right off the bat we have the UNPARDONABLE SIN.


so...Talmud harmless?
first of all i am just going to skip over anything referenced to the toledot yeshu since it is a non rabbinic medieval legend dating several hundred years after the talmud which has no single definitive version anyway... and if you were honest you would not be trying to equivocate these two totally different texts in your effort to attack the talmud...

before going any further it should also be pointed out that 'jesus' or 'joshua' was a common name in ancient israel...for example just from memory i can recall five high priests and an apocryphal writer and an edomite general named jesus... the point is that it is not enough to simply quote a text referring to a 'jesus' or a similar sounding name without proving that the jesus being referred to is the jesus of the new testament... also there was no shortage of false prophets in ancient judea and galilee...so it cannot be assumed that any mention of 'witchcraft' or 'sorcery' is a disparaging reference to the miracles of jesus...

i will begin with your claim that 'ben stada' is a clear reference to jesus in the talmud claiming that he learned witchcraft from egypt...

here is what the passage you cite in tractate shabbath folio 104 of the talmud actually says (i am also including the 'uncensored text' from the soncino edition footnote)...

"R. Eliezer said to the Sages: But did not Ben Stada bring forth witchcraft from Egypt by means of scratches [in the form of charms] upon his flesh? Was he then the son of Stada: surely he was the son of Pandira? — Said R. Hisda: The husband was Stada, the paramour was Pandira. But the husband was Pappos b. Judah? — His mother was Stada. But his mother was Miriam the hairdresser? — It is as we say in Pumbeditha: This one has been unfaithful to her husband."

so it is obvious that there is hopeless confusion in the talmud as to who this 'ben stada' they are talking about actually is... within one paragraph we read that he was the son of stada...and then that he was the son of pandira...and then that stada was just his mother's husband but pandira was the actual father...and then that his mother's husband is pappos ben judah...and then that stada was actually the name of his mother...and then that his mother was a hairdresser named miriam...

the only hint we have as to who this person is comes from the mention of pappos ben judah...a historical figure who lived in the second century AD and fought in the kitos war and was known for having imprisoned his unfaithful wife... whether pappos is the father of this person or not...his mention here allows us to at least establish the period when 'ben stada' could have lived...namely no earlier than the second century AD... since 'ben stada' had to have lived after pappos ben judah...or else nobody would have ever guessed pappos as a possible father to him...

in other words...this 'ben stada' in the talmud could not have been the jesus of the new testament...jesus predates him by at least 100 years...

you also cite tractate sanhedrin folio 67 of the talmud...here is what it actually says...like before i am including the 'uncensored' text from the footnote (the context is the issue of what to do with a layman who seduces people into idolatry)...

"If he retracts, it is well. But if he answers: 'It is our duty and seemly for us', the witnesses who were listening outside bring him to the Beth din, and have him stoned. And this they did to Ben Stada in Lydda, and they hung him on the eve of Passover." (after this the text repeats exactly the debate about ben stada's parents from shabbath 104)

here we can learn that this 'ben stada' was stoned and then hanged in lydda on the eve of passover... our jesus was crucified in jerusalem the day after the passover seder...

so whoever this 'ben stada' is...he absolutely could not have been the jesus of the new testament... wrong execution method in the wrong city on the wrong day...in the wrong century even...

you cite one other passage from the talmud...tractate sanhedrin folio 43...where you claim 'yeshu' refers to jesus and matthai nakai nezer buni and todah refer to five of his disciples... here is what the talmud passage actually says about 'yeshu'...

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"

in this passage we see that this 'yeshu' was stoned and hanged on the eve of passover with forty days' notice to potential defense witnesses... our jesus was crucified the day after the passover seder following a hasty overnight trial with no opportunity for defense testimony...

regarding yeshu's followers...which you claim are five disciples of jesus...sanhedrin 43 says this...

"Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah. When Matthai was brought [before the court] he said to them [the judges], Shall Matthai be executed? Is it not written, Matthai [when] shall I come and appear before God? Thereupon they retorted; Yes, Matthai shall be executed, since it is written, When Matthai [when] shall [he] die and his name perish. When Nakai was brought in he said to them; Shall Nakai be executed? It is not written, Naki [the innocent] and the righteous slay thou not? Yes, was the answer, Nakai shall be executed, since it is written, in secret places does Naki [the innocent] slay. When Nezer was brought in, he said; Shall Nezer be executed? Is it not written, And Nezer [a twig] shall grow forth out of his roots. Yes, they said, Nezer shall be executed, since it is written, But thou art cast forth away from thy grave like Nezer [an abhorred offshoot]. When Buni was brought in, he said: Shall Buni be executed? Is it not written, Beni [my son], my first born? Yes, they said, Buni shall be executed, since it is written, Behold I will slay Bine-ka [thy son] thy first born. And when Todah was brought in, he said to them; Shall Todah be executed? Is it not written, A psalm for Todah [thanksgiving]? Yes, they answered, Todah shall be executed, since it is written, Whoso offereth the sacrifice of Todah [thanksgiving] honoured me."

your identifications of the names of yeshu's followers with the names of jesus' disciples are...creative...to put it nicely... evidently you conclude that 'nakai' must be luke because his name has a K in it...and that 'buni' must be nicodemus because his name has 'NI' in it... but you can't expect any of us to actually take identifications on the basis of one or two shared letters seriously...

what is more important is that this text leaves the definite impression that yeshu's five followers were brought into the court and sentenced to execution one after another... this was apparently not the case with jesus' disciples...who were scattered and martyred separately...

so as with 'ben stada' it is quite clear that this 'yeshu' cannot be the jesus of the new testament...

it appears to me that you didn't actually bother reading the talmudic texts you cite...and just copied the citations from an encyclopedia without checking them... it also appears that you have no ability to analyze or synthesize or evaluate ancient documents like credible historians do... and finally it appears that you are not making an honest attempt to accurately represent what the talmud actually says...
 
Last edited:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
first of all i am just going to skip over anything referenced to the toledot yeshu since it is a non rabbinic medieval legend dating several hundred years after the talmud which has no single definitive version anyway... and if you were honest you would not be trying to equivocate these two totally different texts in your effort to attack the talmud...

before going any further it should also be pointed out that 'jesus' or 'joshua' was a common name in ancient israel...for example just from memory i can recall five high priests and an apocryphal writer and an edomite general named jesus... the point is that it is not enough to simply quote a text referring to a 'jesus' or a similar sounding name without proving that the jesus being referred to is the jesus of the new testament... also there was no shortage of false prophets in ancient judea and galilee...so it cannot be assumed that any mention of 'witchcraft' or 'sorcery' is a disparaging reference to the miracles of jesus...

i will begin with your claim that 'ben stada' is a clear reference to jesus in the talmud claiming that he learned witchcraft from egypt...

here is what the passage you cite in tractate shabbath folio 104 of the talmud actually says (i am also including the 'uncensored text' from the soncino edition footnote)...

"R. Eliezer said to the Sages: But did not Ben Stada bring forth witchcraft from Egypt by means of scratches [in the form of charms] upon his flesh? Was he then the son of Stada: surely he was the son of Pandira? — Said R. Hisda: The husband was Stada, the paramour was Pandira. But the husband was Pappos b. Judah? — His mother was Stada. But his mother was Miriam the hairdresser? — It is as we say in Pumbeditha: This one has been unfaithful to her husband."

so it is obvious that there is hopeless confusion in the talmud as to who this 'ben stada' they are talking about actually is... within one paragraph we read that he was the son of stada...and then that he was the son of pandira...and then that stada was just his mother's husband but pandira was the actual father...and then that his mother's husband is pappos ben judah...and then that stada was actually the name of his mother...and then that his mother was a hairdresser named miriam...

the only hint we have as to who this person is comes from the mention of pappos ben judah...a historical figure who lived in the second century AD and fought in the kitos war and was known for having imprisoned his unfaithful wife... whether pappos is the father of this person or not...his mention here allows us to at least establish the period when 'ben stada' could have lived...namely no earlier than the second century AD... since 'ben stada' had to have lived after pappos ben judah...or else nobody would have ever guessed pappos as a possible father to him...

in other words...this 'ben stada' in the talmud could not have been the jesus of the new testament...jesus predates him by at least 100 years...

you also cite tractate sanhedrin folio 67 of the talmud...here is what it actually says...like before i am including the 'uncensored' text from the footnote (the context is the issue of what to do with a layman who seduces people into idolatry)...

"If he retracts, it is well. But if he answers: 'It is our duty and seemly for us', the witnesses who were listening outside bring him to the Beth din, and have him stoned. And this they did to Ben Stada in Lydda, and they hung him on the eve of Passover." (after this the text repeats exactly the debate about ben stada's parents from shabbath 104)

here we can learn that this 'ben stada' was stoned and then hanged in lydda on the eve of passover... our jesus was crucified in jerusalem the day after the passover seder...

so whoever this 'ben stada' is...he absolutely could not have been the jesus of the new testament... wrong execution method in the wrong city on the wrong day...in the wrong century even...

you cite one other passage from the talmud...tractate sanhedrin folio 43...where you claim 'yeshu' refers to jesus and matthai nakai nezer buni and todah refer to five of his disciples... here is what the talmud passage actually says about 'yeshu'...

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"

in this passage we see that this 'yeshu' was stoned and hanged on the eve of passover with forty days' notice to potential defense witnesses... our jesus was crucified the day after the passover seder following a hasty overnight trial with no opportunity for defense testimony...

regarding yeshu's followers...which you claim are five disciples of jesus...sanhedrin 43 says this...

"Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah. When Matthai was brought [before the court] he said to them [the judges], Shall Matthai be executed? Is it not written, Matthai [when] shall I come and appear before God? Thereupon they retorted; Yes, Matthai shall be executed, since it is written, When Matthai [when] shall [he] die and his name perish. When Nakai was brought in he said to them; Shall Nakai be executed? It is not written, Naki [the innocent] and the righteous slay thou not? Yes, was the answer, Nakai shall be executed, since it is written, in secret places does Naki [the innocent] slay. When Nezer was brought in, he said; Shall Nezer be executed? Is it not written, And Nezer [a twig] shall grow forth out of his roots. Yes, they said, Nezer shall be executed, since it is written, But thou art cast forth away from thy grave like Nezer [an abhorred offshoot]. When Buni was brought in, he said: Shall Buni be executed? Is it not written, Beni [my son], my first born? Yes, they said, Buni shall be executed, since it is written, Behold I will slay Bine-ka [thy son] thy first born. And when Todah was brought in, he said to them; Shall Todah be executed? Is it not written, A psalm for Todah [thanksgiving]? Yes, they answered, Todah shall be executed, since it is written, Whoso offereth the sacrifice of Todah [thanksgiving] honoured me."

your identifications of the names of yeshu's followers with the names of jesus' disciples are...creative...to put it nicely... evidently you conclude that 'nakai' must be luke because his name has a K in it...and that 'buni' must be nicodemus because his name has 'NI' in it... but you can't expect any of us to actually take identifications on the basis of one or two shared letters seriously...

what is more important is that this text leaves the definite impression that yeshu's five followers were brought into the court and sentenced to execution one after another... this was apparently not the case with jesus' disciples...who were scattered and martyred separately...

so as with 'ben stada' it is quite clear that this 'yeshu' cannot be the jesus of the new testament...

it appears to me that you didn't actually bother reading the talmudic texts you cite...and just copied the citations from an encyclopedia without checking them... it also appears that you have no ability to analyze or synthesize or evaluate ancient documents like credible historians do... and finally it appears that you are not making an honest attempt to accurately represent what the talmud actually says...
i'm glad you just came out with it rachel. better to be honest about who we are.

i'm going out today.
i'll get to all your assertions.

they've been covered by Jewish scholars themselves....who are now christians. Yeshu is indeed a fav. but covered up. i'll get to it.
i've seen all your "debunks" a million times.

but carry on.

are you ashkenazi rachel?
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Talmud
According to Judaism, as expressed in the Talmud, the Noachide Laws apply to all humanity through humankind's descent from one paternal ancestor, the head of the only family to survive The Flood, who in Hebrew tradition is called Noah. In Judaism, בני נח B'nei Noah (Hebrew, "Descendants of Noah", "Children of Noah") refers to all of humankind.[13] The Talmud also states: "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of "the righteous among the gentiles".

Historically, some rabbinic opinions consider non-Jews not only not obligated to adhere to all the remaining laws of the Torah, but are actually forbidden to observe them.[16] The Noachide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God, or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws

~

hey.
wait a second: it said

"According to Judaism, as expressed in the Talmud, the Noachide Laws apply to all humanity "

but then it said:

"Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of "the righteous among the gentiles".

what's going on here.
i guess ALL HUMANITY doesn't really mean ALL.
unless the other group is something more than mere humanity.

we'll see..........
since you -claim- to want to talk about the talmud...the one thing you seem to be talking about the -least- in this thread...i am just going to skip over all of your diversionary posts on freemasons and scofield and nazis and IBM and rothschilds and netanyahu and socialists and the bush family and 9/11 and anything else that isn't about the talmud itself...

in judaism the noachide laws apply to all humanity...

the 613 torah commands apply only to jews...-in addition to- the noachide laws...and in fact jewish torah scholars regard the 613 commands as being ultimately -derived from- the noachide laws...

gentiles are exempt from the 613 torah commands since those were only for israel...so only the noachide laws apply to gentiles... not all gentiles actually live by them...but those who do are considered righteous gentiles...

wikipedia articles shouldn't be this far over the head of an expert like you...
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Talmud
Kol Nidrei
lying/disavowing a vow/oath is okay.

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Nedarim


Folio 23a

MISHNAH. R. ELIEZER B. JACOB SAID: ALSO HE WHO WISHES TO SUBJECT HIS FRIEND TO A VOW TO EAT WITH HIM, SHOULD DECLARE: 'EVERY VOW WHICH I MAY MAKE IN THE FUTURE SHALL BE NULL'. [HIS VOWS ARE THEN INVALID,] PROVIDING THAT HE REMEMBERS THIS AT THE TIME OF THE VOW.

GEMARA. But since he says, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null,' he will surely not listen to him and not come to [eat with] him? —

The text is defective, and this is what was taught: He who desires his friend to eat with him, and after urging him, imposes a vow upon him, it is 'a vow of incitement [and hence invalid]. And he who desires that none of his vows made during the year shall be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null.1 [HIS VOWS ARE THEN INVALID,] PROVIDING THAT HE REMEMBERS THIS AT THE TIME OF THE VOW. But if he remembers, he has cancelled the declaration and confirmed the vow?2 — Abaye answered: Read: providing that it is not remembered at the time of the vow. Raba said, After all, it is as we said originally.3 Here the circumstances are e.g., that one stipulated at the beginning of the year, but does not know in reference to what. Now he vows. Hence, if he remembers [the stipulation] and he declares: 'I vow in accordance with my original intention', his vow has no reality. But if he does not declare thus, he has cancelled his stipulation and confirmed his vow.

http://halakhah.com/nedarim/nedarim_23.html

~

what does THE TRUE TORAH SAY?

Numbers 30:2
If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

Leviticus 19:12
And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

~

is the Talmud harmless?
for jews or Christians?

is the Talmud from God?
or from BABYLON?
even the teachers cited in the talmud itself are unclear on what situation this passage refers to...

but it is clear that the issue is what to do about someone who makes a vow after having previously made a solemn declaration that any future vows are void...is he bound to his future laws or not?

it is a hypothetical question involving legal minutiae...the kind of thing the ancient rabbis really enjoyed debating...

is the talmud's approach to the question in keeping with the spirit of the torah law the discussion is based on? probably not...but i could have shown you plenty of talmudic passages where that happens...

still this doesn't mean that the talmud is a satanic text that encourages jews to murder christians...it just means someone messed up their interpretation of the torah... on the other hand we christians -never- have trouble interpreting the bible... :rolleyes:

for the sake of fairness you could also post passages from the quran or even from christian commentaries that contradict the torah...but apparently your vendetta is only against jews...

the talmud isn't completely 'harmless' since it comes from a perspective of legalism and work righteousness... but that doesn't make it some kind of demonically inspired manual instructing a secret society of jews to wipe out all the christians as they take over the world during the great tribulation...

the talmud is harmless to christians as long as we don't start to imitate its legalistic point of view...but if we don't take a legalistic point of view it is practically useless to us as anything other than a secondary historical source anyway...

it is harmful only to jews in that it keeps them in a work righteous mindset... i am all for helping jews to dispense with the talmud...but you are not going to do that with over the top unfounded attacks on its content... and on the other hand there are plenty of 'reform jews' who care little for the legal minutiae of the talmud...yet they are still as work righteous as ever...so the talmud is not the true source of judaism's problem...
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
i'm glad you just came out with it rachel. better to be honest about who we are.

i'm going out today.
i'll get to all your assertions.

they've been covered by Jewish scholars themselves....who are now christians. Yeshu is indeed a fav. but covered up. i'll get to it.
i've seen all your "debunks" a million times.

but carry on.

are you ashkenazi rachel?
first let's review your 'criteria' for identifying references to jesus christ in the talmud...

1. the person need not be actually named jesus
2. the person need not have the same parents as jesus
3. the person need not be recorded as dying by the same method as jesus did
4. the person's trial need not be recorded as including the same legal proceedings as jesus' trial
5. the person need not be recorded as dying in the same city as jesus did
6. the person need not be recorded as dying on the same day as jesus did
7. the person need not have the same number of disciples as jesus did
8. the person's disciples need not have the same names as jesus' disciples
9. the person's disciples need not have died under the same circumstances a jesus' disciples did
10. the person need not even live in the same century as jesus

or we can just summarize and identify your one general principle...

-the person need not have any discernible resemblance whatsoever to jesus christ-
 
P

prophecyman

Guest
Actually the Noahide laws were confirmed by the Jerusalem council, by which the apostles approved.
 
N

NoahsMom

Guest
Ok Zone, you have got me to studyin some, archeological....................................., Im not done yet tho, its gettin interestin.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
even the teachers cited in the talmud itself are unclear on what situation this passage refers to......
handy how that works.
but that's not how the system operates in reality. (see below Kol Nidre for example)

you're okay with obfuscation under scutiny.
i prefer straight-up.

but it is clear that the issue is what to do about someone who makes a vow after having previously made a solemn declaration that any future vows are void...is he bound to his future laws or not?
(kōl nĭd'rā, -rə, kôl nē-drā')


n. Judaism
  • An opening prayer recited on the eve of Yom Kippur, retroactively or preemptively declaring the annulment of all personal vows made to God in the previous or following year.
  • The melody to which such a prayer is chanted.

KOL NIDRE (
= "all vows"):

"All vows [
], obligations, oaths, and anathemas, whether called 'ḳonam,' 'ḳonas,' or by any other name, which we may vow, or swear, or pledge, or whereby we may be bound, from this Day of Atonement until the next (whose happy coming we await), we do repent. May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annulled, and void, and made of no effect; they shall not bind us nor have power over us. The vows shall not be reckoned vows; the obligations shall not be obligatory; nor the oaths be oaths."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9443-kol-nidre

it's real simple.
my vow means nothing.

it is a hypothetical question involving legal minutiae...the kind of thing the ancient rabbis really enjoyed debating......
great!
has nothing to do with me: until it enters Christianity or the world stage.
then it matters.

is the talmud's approach to the question in keeping with the spirit of the torah law the discussion is based on? probably not...but i could have shown you plenty of talmudic passages where that happens.........
we'll get to them: there are lots more to go.
you can defend your postion and counter whatever i post.
its good to honest.

still this doesn't mean that the talmud is a satanic text that encourages jews to murder christians..
you're familiar enough with it to know that's false.
so we have a problem rachel.

the Talmud is filled with all manner of occult doctrine and worse.

but provide any counter to any quotes i post. i know there are many excuses and fences and hedges.
the only content i care about is that which proves that:

Talmudic Judaism has nothing to do with Moses, can't lead jews to Christ, and hates Jesus and gentiles. easy to prove. the other stuff will come into the light just as a consequence of those points.

it just means someone messed up their interpretation of the torah... on the other hand we christians -never- have trouble interpreting the bible... :rolleyes:..
messed up their interpretation of Torah?
Babylonian Talmudism has nothing to do with TRUE TORAH.
zero.

for the sake of fairness you could also post passages from the quran or even from christian commentaries that contradict the torah...but apparently your vendetta is only against jews.....
fairness?
why don't you start a thread with a poll asking if christians should take a Pledge agreeing to obey sharia Law upon penalty of death.

see what happens.
the difference is, nobody knows what Judaism really is.
so why do i need to "be fair"?

the Koran is clear. i know what it says and what that religion is.

Judaism however is disguised as something it is not (at least as far as Christians are concerned) - and the church is my concern.

vendetta against the jews? YAWN.
don't you have anything better than that yet?


the talmud isn't completely 'harmless' since it comes from a perspective of legalism and work righteousness... but that doesn't make it some kind of demonically inspired manual instructing a secret society of jews to wipe out all the christians as they take over the world during the great tribulation.....
please continue to contribute. its helpful to have someone defend it.
do you read hebrew?

the talmud is harmless to christians as long as we don't start to imitate its legalistic point of view...but if we don't take a legalistic point of view it is practically useless to us as anything other than a secondary historical source anyway........
yes i know you said its not harmful.
we'll see.

we'll see the practical applications of a mindset that follows it.

it is harmful only to jews in that it keeps them in a work righteous mindset......
that's the worst description of the Talmud i've ever heard: from either side.
you even think its harless for the jews trapped by it.
sad.


i am all for helping jews to dispense with the talmud...but you are not going to do that with over the top unfounded attacks on its content... and on the other hand there are plenty of 'reform jews' who care little for the legal minutiae of the talmud...yet they are still as work righteous as ever...so the talmud is not the true source of judaism's problem...
i'm all for helping christians find out what it says first and foremost, so they will stop supporting the fruit of it.
then jews can be helped: by the TRUTH.
i see it all the time.
do you?
 
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zone

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Ok Zone, you have got me to studyin some, archeological....................................., Im not done yet tho, its gettin interestin.
whatchu up to Ma?
pm me:D
 

zone

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first let's review your 'criteria' for identifying references to jesus christ in the talmud...

1. the person need not be actually named jesus
2. the person need not have the same parents as jesus
3. the person need not be recorded as dying by the same method as jesus did
4. the person's trial need not be recorded as including the same legal proceedings as jesus' trial
5. the person need not be recorded as dying in the same city as jesus did
6. the person need not be recorded as dying on the same day as jesus did
7. the person need not have the same number of disciples as jesus did
8. the person's disciples need not have the same names as jesus' disciples
9. the person's disciples need not have died under the same circumstances a jesus' disciples did
10. the person need not even live in the same century as jesus

or we can just summarize and identify your one general principle...

-the person need not have any discernible resemblance whatsoever to jesus christ-
WHAT COINCIDENCES.
but we have rabbis and others (even kids) actually speaking the words.
saying it in the open. they got it somewhere rachel.

the unforgiveable sin: committed today and you make out like its nothing. that's loving jews?

we'll get to it.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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since you -claim- to want to talk about the talmud...the one thing you seem to be talking about the -least- in this thread...i am just going to skip over all of your diversionary posts on freemasons and scofield and nazis and IBM and rothschilds and netanyahu and socialists and the bush family and 9/11 and anything else that isn't about the talmud itself...

in judaism the noachide laws apply to all humanity...

the 613 torah commands apply only to jews...-in addition to- the noachide laws...and in fact jewish torah scholars regard the 613 commands as being ultimately -derived from- the noachide laws...

gentiles are exempt from the 613 torah commands since those were only for israel...so only the noachide laws apply to gentiles... not all gentiles actually live by them...but those who do are considered righteous gentiles...

wikipedia articles shouldn't be this far over the head of an expert like you...
only problem is...it's the non-jews that get killed.
decided by Laws made up by Babylonian Kabbalists.
as we'll see.

and that's pure rubbish anyways. they're adding laws as we speak...as the system tends to do. never-ending laws and subsets of laws....
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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it [The Talmud] is harmful only to jews in that it keeps them in a work righteous mindset...so the talmud is not the true source of judaism's problem...
below are voices rarely heard. not because they're not out there but because they are 'inconvenient':

~

We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people.

We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.

The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

Current signers number: 550


~​


[below THE HEART OF THOSE ADHERING TO MOSES AND THE PROPHETS - REAL TORAH........not some insane ramblings of centuries of supremacist rabbinic midrash contained in the Talmud]


REFUSING TO SERVE IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES: SOME JEWISH SOURCES

Ruling Over a Hostile Population

Our rule over three million Palestinian Arabs in the territories has perforce put us in a position of committing a number of moral outrages. Continued rule will necessitate not only continued denial of many basic rights to Palestinians, but will require our taking additional steps which are reprehensible, if not morally questionable. While we certainly did not set out intentionally to take drastic measures to buttress our rule, these are willy-nilly consequences of such a position. To maintain our rule we will have to continue to mete out collective punishment that often cruelly affects those who are not guilty.​

Among the steps we have taken is the enclosing of millions of humans in their cities, towns, and villages. We often deny basic rights such as the right to earn a living, , to study, to move freely, to purchase basic necessities, to vote, to travel for medical care, to move sick or injured to medical facilities, etc. But most severe is that innocent civilians die. While this occurs in every violent conflict throughout the world, and throughout history, what is happening now is more than unintentional collateral deaths of civilians. Ruling over millions of people who despise your rule necessitates such deaths of youngsters, women, and elderly.​

The IDF, like any army, makes both avoidable and unavoidable mistakes; but it is certainly not bloodthirsty and has no daily quota of corpses. It is not an oxymoron to term the IDF a humane army. Nevertheless, it seems that a large number of the hundreds of Palestinian civilians who die are not killed because Israeli armed forces are acting in self-defense. The IDF maintains that these are victims of such unavoidable actions that must be taken to quell unrest. In this respect, the IDF is correct because to put down a popular uprising drastic measures (i.e., maiming and killing civilians) are often needed, in addition to the enforcing of curfews, establishment of blockades, abrogation of civil rights, and condoning of inhumane treatment. The governmental decision to remain in the disputed territories leads to the viewing of most, if not all, Palestinians as enemies and anyone who is connected to the enemy is a fair target.​

Collective Punishment

Issues related to the practice of collective punishment (where this involves punishing innocents who are part of the collective) appear in a number of instances in Jewish sources.​

Abraham's Refusal

One could consider our forefather Avraham as the first “conscientious objector to collective punishment” for his refusal to participate in or condone collective punishment. He was even willing to risk punishment himself in order to try to dissuade G-d from His intention to mete out collective punishment to Sodom and Gemora. His argument with G-d is described in Genesis:​

“If there are fifty righteous within the city, will You indeed sweep away and not forgive the city for the fifty?…It is far from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked… Shall not the Judge of all the earth do justly?” (Genesis 18:24-25).​

Here Avraham courageously questions G-d and appeals His decision to destroy entire cities. Avraham’s questioning of the impending collective punishment succeeded in persuading G-d, so to speak, to reconsider. The implication is that collective punishment, where it includes innocents, is not acceptable, and only those who have sinned should be punished for their own wrongdoing.​

Avraham held himself to a very high standard. He feared that he may have killed innocent people during the wars he waged (described in Genesis 14). According to midrash Tanhuma:​

“Avraham excoriated himself mercilessly saying, ’Perhaps among those whom I have killed there were some righteous men…’ (Tanhuma 3:14 on Gen. 15:1 )​

Massacre in Nablus

This principle of not harming innocents appears elsewhere in the Torah. Our forefather Yaakov severely rebuked two of his sons, Shimon and Levi, when they massacred the city of Shechem (Shechem/Nablus today) as a form of revenge. This act of reprisal, shading over to vicious vindictiveness, was executed by the two brothers as retribution for the rape of their sister Dinah. Despite this seeming justification tendered by the brothers, Yaakov censured his sons in one of the most caustic statements in the Bible, when he reproved them:​

“Simon and Levi are brothers; weapons of violence are the means of their livelihood. Let my soul not be coupled with theirs; into their assembly let my glory not be united. For in anger they slew men, and in their willfulness they continued in their destruction of cattle. Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce, and their wrath for it was cruel.” (Genesis 49:5):​

Yaakov was shaken by what his sons did, and does not mince words in his reproach. Similar words might be said in reaction to our attempts to justify aerial bombing of Palestinian cities as retribution for attacks by terrorists. If we do not want to be cursed, we have to decline to participate in these actions, even if we have to refuse to serve in the territories altogether.​

The argument is made that we have no choice and that the IDF must take such steps to preserve the security of the State. I cannot be convinced that the existence of the State of Israel hangs on the killing of children in refugee camps. The rule over another nation, a hostile population, does not strengthen our defense posture; rather it weakens us. It prolongs the necessity for curfews and blockades of millions of humans, for abrogation of their elementary rights, and for physically injuring them.​

In the case of Shimon and Levi, they defended their action as being of deterrent value. Yaakov rejects this argument because even in military conflicts there are acts that are prohibited. This can be derived from the comments of Ramban (Nachmanides) on the episode. He discusses the claim (heard today as well) that Shimon and Levi were justified in attacking and murdering the men of Nablus and sacking the city because the citizens did not bring the rapist to justice. After discussing this line of defense of Shimon and Levi, Ramban rejects it unequivocally. There is no justification for harming innocents. This is a basic tenet of justice.​

Contrast Shimon and Levi’s headstrong cruelty with the earlier introspection of their father. Yaakov feared killing innocents. When his brother Esau approached Yaakov with four hundred armed men for a face-off, we are told that :​

“Yaakov was greatly afraid and was distressed.” (Genesis 32:8)
Rashi explains the seeming redundancy (afraid and distressed) by saying that Yaakov was afraid he might be killed, and distressed that he might kill Esau, in the event that Esau had innocent intentions.​

Individual Responsibility - A Religious Norm

The concept of individual responsibility for wrongdoing is encapsulated in the prohibition towards the end of the Torah:​

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16)​

This moral and religious norm appears elsewhere in the Tanakh. For example, the prophet Ezekial warns that:​

“The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not hear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself alone.” (Ezekial 18:20)​

This pertains to all Jews (and is not restricted to ‘teary-eyed left-wing liberals’). In the territories we are violating this precept daily by destroying houses of families of terrorists, preventing food and medical supplies from reaching villages, and physically harming blameless civilians -- acts that would be forbidden under the rubric of “the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself alone.”

This dilemma has preoccupied military officers around the world in the past as much as it baffles us today. How can you fight an enemy that intentionally blurs the lines between the military and the civilian, an enemy that uses that very ambiguity to its own advantage? It would be simplistic to dismiss all military operations that affect civilians as morally indefensible, especially in the context of vicious guerilla and terrorist attacks. This conundrum has always been with us. For example, a member of the pre-State Jewish Special Night Squads (that were trained to fight Arabs by the British Major General Orde Wingate) observed, “The problem of punishment and.. the morality of battle was something that concerned Wingate greatly. On the one hand, he demanded that the innocent not be harmed. On the other hand, he knew that he faced a dilemma: Can one observe this rule in battle against gangs that receive assistance from the residents of the villages?”
[Bierman and Smith, Fire in the Night: Wingate of Burma, Ethiopia, and Zion, p. 11, as quoted in Azure, No.10, Winter 2001, p. 46, published by the Shalem Center]​

I wish that I could agree with those settlers who claim that we can humanely and fairly occupy and rule those over-the-Green-Line portions of the Land of Israel, as precious to me as it is to them. But there ain’t no such animal as an “enlightened occupation.” The rule over 3 million antagonistic people, stripped of their rights, will necessitate, nolens volens, cruelty on our part. It will require us to violate normative prohibitions of Jewish law. Therefore the refusal to participate in actions directly related to the occupation is a religious imperative. We hope that every soldier, in the standing army and in the reserve, will ponder these dilemmas and draw conclusions himself.​

Blind Obedience to One’s Country

Blind compliance can lead to bestiality, for animals live without morality and law. While there is a halakhic principle of dina demalkhuta dina (the law of the land is obeyed when it does not contradict Jewish law), obedience to the state is not an ultimate Jewish value. The Prophets riled against those regimes in the Jewish past that used their powers to the disadvantage of weak populations. They did not hesitate to call for disobedience to such wicked regimes. (E.g. see the episode over Navot’s vineyard involving Ahab and Jezebel in I Kings 21). Law abiding citizenship is encouraged; but obedience per se as a value is not sacrosanct.​

Questions of immorality and illegality waft above the orders to serve in the territories. We must continue to serve in the IDF, as a defence army, but not as an occupying force committing crimes against humanity.​

We dare not become soldier robots. We may have to suffer the consequences of refusal , which can run the gamut from ridicule and social ostracism to imprisonment. As soldiers we not only have to obey orders, but we also have to be aware that they may violate our most basic moral, legal, and religious norms.​

Updated February 7 2002​

 
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zone

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"We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent."

Paul Warburg
February 17, 1950
to U.S. Senate

Born in Hamburg to an aristocratic Jewish family of [TALMUDIC] rabbis and merchants who had engaged in banking and commerce in Europe for nearly 300 years, Paul Warburg was educated in a realgymnasium and served an apprenticeship in a Hamburg mercantile house. Completing his commercial education in London and Paris banking houses, he went around the world in 1893 to learn international finance. While in the United States, he married the daughter of one of the partners in the large New York investment banking firm of Kuhn Loeb and Company. On his return to Germany he was admitted as a partner in the family banking firm in Hamburg...
http://biography.yourdictionary.com/paul-moritz-warburg

other
Paul Warburg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

zone

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Talmudic contempt for non-Judaics is becoming so overwhelming that even the New York Times is impelled to report it:



New York Times, Oct. 7, 2011, p. A10

Hidden Works of Darkness Brought to Public Light







Judaism's Strange Gods


Contains all of Michael Hoffman's main facts and most effective research exposing Judaism, in an easy-to-read, quality paperback. Judaism's Strange Gods is a condensed version of Hoffman's huge reference work, Judaism Discovered. Talmudic Judaism is overwhelming the Tea Party and the Right wing, masquerading as a family values partner with patriots against the forces of evil. On the Left, it poses as a progressive partner with peace activists. Christian scholar Michael Hoffman blows that facade to smithereens in clear and understandable writing, and does so charitably and without hatred. Christian bookstores are packed with tomes purporting to unmask the religion of Islam, but not one slim volume will be found delving into the depravities of Orthodox Judaism. Judaism's Strange Gods corrects that imbalance. One of the most important books of our time!

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/page1/news.html

~

antisemite?
conspiracy theorist?
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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Mishneh Torah

Translated by Eliyahu Touger


« PreviousNext »

Chapter Ten

Halacha 1
We may not draw up a covenant with idolaters which will establish peace between them [and us] and yet allow them to worship idols, as [Deuteronomy 7:2] states: "Do not establish a covenant with them." Rather, they must renounce their [idol] worship or be slain. It is forbidden to have mercy upon them, as [Deuteronomy, ibid.] states: "Do not be gracious to them."

Accordingly, if we see an idolater being swept away or drowning in the river, we should not help him. If we see that his life is in danger, we should not save him. It is, however, forbidden to cause one of them to sink or push him into a pit or the like, since he is not waging war against us.

To whom do the above apply? To gentiles. It is a mitzvah, however, to eradicate Jewish traitors, minnim, and apikorsim, and to cause them to descend to the pit of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway the people away from God, {as did Jesus of Nazareth and his students, and Tzadok, Baithos, and their students. May the name of the wicked rot.}


Halacha 2
From the above, we can infer that it is forbidden to offer medical treatment to an idolater even when offered a wage. If, however, one is afraid of the consequences or fears that ill feeling will be aroused, one may treat them for a wage, but to treat them free is forbidden.

[With regard to] a ger toshav, since we are commanded to secure his well-being, he may be given medical treatment at no cost.


Halacha 3
It is forbidden to sell them homes and fields in Eretz Yisrael. In Syria, one may sell them homes, but not fields.

One may rent them homes in Eretz Yisrael, provided that a neighborhood [of idolaters] is not established. Fewer than three [homes] does not constitute a neighborhood. It is, however, forbidden to rent them fields. In Syria, one may rent them fields.

Why did [the Rabbis issue] more stringent laws regarding fields? Because two difficulties are involved: One removes the obligation of tithes [from these fields], and one gives them a resting place in our land.

It is permitted to sell them houses and fields in the Diaspora, because it is not our land.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/912369/jewish/Chapter-Ten.htm

~

and on and on and on and on................

antisemitic rantings?
conspiracy webpage?

.....or simply Talmudic rabbinical source proclaiming what their religious beliefs are?

To whom do the above apply? To gentiles. It is a mitzvah, however, to eradicate Jewish traitors, minnim, and apikorsim, and to cause them to descend to the pit of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway the people away from God, {as did Jesus of Nazareth and his students, and Tzadok, Baithos, and their students. May the name of the wicked rot.}

May the name of the wicked rot - "yeshu"


(am i misunderstanding the ACTUAL INTERPRETATION OF THE SO-CALLED OBSCURE/COINCIDENTAL PASSAGES CONCERNING JESUS AND GENTILES?......which are carefully expunged from copies seeing the light of day, replaced with an "O" or other symbol, meaning censored but STILL TAUGHT ORALLY. when that doesn't work, the endless midrash of excuses begins. SO: did we get it wrong? yes or no?)

Halacha 1
We may not draw up a covenant with idolaters which will establish peace between them [and us] and yet allow them to worship idols, as [Deuteronomy 7:2] states: "Do not establish a covenant with them." Rather, they must renounce their [idol] worship or be slain. It is forbidden to have mercy upon them, as [Deuteronomy, ibid.] states: "Do not be gracious to them."


DUH. i wonder why there's never any peace agreement or 'getting along'? ITS "THE LAW" according to the rabbis, who reender God's Word VAIN AND EMPTY, useless to them, by mixing in their Oral Traditions....disgracing His Name among the gentiles!
 
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