The Noahide Laws

[Scotth1960]

What about those who hold "that person" is messiah.

People who hold that he is not and was not any part of a divinity, but still holds that he was a messiah.

Answer. It is the opinion of Rabbi Schwartz that a person who believes that "that man" was a messiah is not transgressing any prohibition. However the issue is as follows: someone who believes that "that man" was a messiah seems to be only partly disassociating himself from full christianity, and there is a problem of what is meant by the term "messiah". Is the messiah a "divine messenger" to "save" the world. Now when I say "a divine messenger" I mean someone - otherwise normal human being - sent by "the divinity" as a messenger. It seems that some people mean "a person with divine attributes"!

An issue which could be seen as semantic becomes of major consequence.

The decision of Rabbi Schwartz is therefore that in the beis din over which he presides he will not accept declarations of people with christian background if they think that "that man" was a messiah. This DOES NOT MEAN that the declaration of such a person before any [other] beis din is valueless. Perhaps another beis din will be satisfied that the person before them is bona fide in acceptance of the totally non-divinity of "that man". They may accept the declaration, and it will be fully valid.

Jesus Christ alone is LORD GOD and Messiah. Any other alleged "messiah" is Antichrist and from satan the devil.

[zone]

Christianity and Noahide Law

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Within Judaism it is a matter of debate whether all Christians should be considered Noahides.

While Christianity appears to conform to six of the seven Noahide laws, an informal comparison of the Nicene Creed and Noahide Law reveals that three major theological teachings may involve a violation of the Noahide prohibition against idolatry.

• Equating Jesus with G-d
• Equating the Holy Spirit with G-d
• Jesus as Savior (in his proposed capacity as G-d)

However, these theological issues do not fit the classical Jewish definition of idolatry. This has caused disagreement among rabbinic authorities on the question of the permissibility of Christianity for non-Jews. (All authorities forbid Christianity for Jews).


Another consideration would be that even if Christians are considered at least partially observant Noahides, are they Chasidei Umos HaOlam or Chochmei Umos HaOlam? The former are considered to have a share in the world to come because they recognize Noahide Law as being revealed through mosaic (rabbinic) tradition, the latter are not considered to have a share in the world to come because they follow Noahide Law based on intellectual expediency.[1]

In summary, classical idolatry has been clearly defined by Jewish Law. Christianity, however, has been defined as something less. The problem is defining how much less, and for what purposes.

http://www.wikinoah.org/index.php/Christianity_and_Noahide_Law

[zone]

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

[zone]

COMMISSION FOR RELIGIOUS RELATIONS WITH THE JEWS

THE DELEGATION OF THE HOLY SEE'S COMMISSION
FOR RELIGIOUS RELATIONS WITH THE JEWS
AND THE CHIEF RABBINATE OF ISRAEL'S DELEGATION
FOR RELATIONS WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
BILATERAL COMMISSION MEETING

Jerusalem, March 11-13, 2007; Adar 21-23, 5767

3. God has created the human person as a social being which by definition places limits on individual human freedom. Moreover freedom of choice is derived from God and therefore is not absolute, but must reflect Divine will and law. Accordingly human beings are called to freely obey the Divine will as manifested in the Creation and in His revealed word.

Jewish tradition emphasizes the Noachide Covenant (cf. Gn 9: 9-12) as containing. the universal moral code which is incumbent on all humanity. This idea is reflected in Christian Scripture in the Book of Acts 15: 28-29.

4. Accordingly the idea of moral relativism is antithetical to this religious world view and poses a serious threat to humanity. Even though the Enlightenment helped bring about a purification from the abuse of religion, secular society still requires religious foundations to sustain lasting moral values. Critical among these is the principal of the sanctity of human life and dignity. Ethical monotheism affirms these as inviolable human rights and therefore can provide inspiration in this regard for society at large.

Bilateral Commission Meeting, Jerusalem, March 11-13, 2007; Adar 21-23, 5767

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Thousands of Christians have gathered today at the Washington DC Convention Center to express their support for Israel. Journalist Max Blumethal was kicked out while filming the Christians United for Israel Summit in 2007, but he managed to find out some pretty illustrative beliefs held by people there. RT's Lauren Lyster speaks to Blumenthal about it.

Uploaded by RTAmerica on Jul 18, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pm9tRCzORM&feature=relmfu

[Abiding]

Studied this for the last 12 hrs...tired. But brought you a warm beverage and your favorite breakfast roll

[zone]

Studied this for the last 12 hrs...tired. But brought you a warm beverage and your favorite breakfast roll

awww thank you Abiding.
mmmm.
how did you know it was my favourite << notice the "u" in favourite: canadian, eh?

looking very very much forward to your insights.

[SantoSubito]

awww thank you Abiding.
mmmm.
how did you know it was my favourite << notice the "u" in favourite: canadian, eh?

looking very very much forward to your insights.

You crazy Canadians, Always screwing up our English!

[distinctiveministry]

I would not take the oath on the prinicple of generally not taking oaths, but for the actual content of the oath I have no problem. Of course, it is already known about me around CC that I believe that Jesus is the Messiah and God's special agent of judgment and salvation, but not divine.

[eternally-gratefull]

The Noahide Pledge

From English WikiNoah


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Maimonides says that "One who accepts these [basic laws] is called: Ger Toshav in every place, and he must be accepted in front of three judges"[1], and in the next verse says "Everyone who accepts the seven commandments and is careful to perform them – this person is of the Chasidei Umos HaOlam, and he has a portion in the world to come. He accepts them and performs them because they were commanded by the Kodosh Baruch Hu, revealed to us by the hand of Moshe Rabbenu that the Bnei Noah were previously commanded in these things. However, if he keeps these [laws] because of intellectual decision – he is not called a Ger Toshav and is not of the Chasidei Umos HaOlam, he is [only] one of their wise men."[2]

The following are various opinions on the appearance of the Noahide in front of three judges, commonly – although usually incorrectly – called the Noahide Oath.

http://wikinoah.org/index.php/The_Noahide_Pledge


~

to ponder:

would you take this Oath?
should anyone?
where does this come from?
where is it headed?

Looks like a very very very shortened version of Pharisaical law. which had many many more commands than this. But these commands still were in direct conflict with the law God gave moses.

the only real different (law) I see is the one which says one shall not eat limb of an animal (I guess a chicken leg would be a grave sin) other than this. It appears these laws line up )for most part) with origional ten.

I do not, however, see many (if any at all) paganistic ritual, tradition or teachings so I would not classify this as babylon. Although it may be a dughter of her. I would not even go this far.

would I take this oath? No. It is no different than what jews for thousands of years have believed. The difference here, than in other instances where God says they played the harlot. is this religion believes in a monotheistic God (one God only) where as when they played the harlot. They believed and worshiped the pagan Gods of the culture with which they were playing the harlot with. (IE Babylon)

[zone]

You crazy Canadians, Always screwing up our English!

santo, you guys fought the redcoats, and junked their stuff so it's not your English (not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. anyhow, they conquered y'all in spite of it, without ya even noticin').

rule brittannia! (NOT).
here we kicked yer guyzez butts, then kept her majesty and called it democracy. go figger.

[zone]

I would not take the oath on the prinicple of generally not taking oaths, but for the actual content of the oath I have no problem. Of course, it is already known about me around CC that I believe that Jesus is the Messiah and God's special agent of judgment and salvation, but not divine.

so you won't be in danger of beheading distinctive.

except...you're gonna have to take that pledge one way or the other.

what were you sayin' about the New Perspective on Paul? oh ya! that's from the Noahide ppl and it's a-okay.
(still got my eye on ya distinctive)

[zone]

Looks like a very very very shortened version of Pharisaical law. which had many many more commands than this. But these commands still were in direct conflict with the law God gave moses.

the only real different (law) I see is the one which says one shall not eat limb of an animal (I guess a chicken leg would be a grave sin) other than this. It appears these laws line up )for most part) with origional ten.

I do not, however, see many (if any at all) paganistic ritual, tradition or teachings so I would not classify this as babylon. Although it may be a dughter of her. I would not even go this far.

would I take this oath? No. It is no different than what jews for thousands of years have believed. The difference here, than in other instances where God says they played the harlot. is this religion believes in a monotheistic God (one God only) where as when they played the harlot. They believed and worshiped the pagan Gods of the culture with which they were playing the harlot with. (IE Babylon)

but this is what The Pharisees brought out of Babylon, sanitized and presented to the gentiles.
the freemasons and those guys (ya the jesuits too) have been keeping this LEAVEN rising for a long time.

why do we think the pope and those guys wear the kippa and stuff?

what they are saying the jews are to do isn't Moses either, you are right.

jews are maybe the biggests victims of thing anyways, but lots are running away from it (thank God), having become "secular" for a time.

our problem as Christians is that we don't even know what this stuff is, and so think all is cool in Jerusalem when it isn't.

Pharisees

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

[zone]

Looks like a very very very shortened version of Pharisaical law. which had many many more commands than this. But these commands still were in direct conflict with the law God gave moses.

the only real different (law) I see is the one which says one shall not eat limb of an animal (I guess a chicken leg would be a grave sin) other than this. It appears these laws line up )for most part) with origional ten.

I do not, however, see many (if any at all) paganistic ritual, tradition or teachings so I would not classify this as babylon. Although it may be a dughter of her. I would not even go this far.

would I take this oath? No. It is no different than what jews for thousands of years have believed. The difference here, than in other instances where God says they played the harlot. is this religion believes in a monotheistic God (one God only) where as when they played the harlot. They believed and worshiped the pagan Gods of the culture with which they were playing the harlot with. (IE Babylon)

here's an example of the Mystery Babylon connection today:

http://www.themysticheart.org/judaism.html << DO NOT CLICK HERE IF YOU ARE A NEW CHRISTIAN

its just kabbalah and what not.
zohar etc.

all bad.

check out the mystic christianity (inject Rick Joyner et al...presto - prophets and new revelation)

[eternally-gratefull]

but this is what The Pharisees brought out of Babylon, sanitized and presented to the gentiles.
the freemasons and those guys (ya the jesuits too) have been keeping this LEAVEN rising for a long time.

why do we think the pope and those guys wear the kippa and stuff?

what they are saying the jews are to do isn't Moses either, you are right.

jews are maybe the biggests victims of thing anyways, but lots are running away from it (thank God), having become "secular" for a time.

our problem as Christians is that we don't even know what this stuff is, and so think all is cool in Jerusalem when it isn't.

Pharisees

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

The jews brought alot out of babylon. One of the things was that they were afraid of failing again and falling back into captivity. So they wrote new laws. basically adding to the origional laws given by moses. Thinking if they did this. it owuld be harder to break the real. many years later the pharisees in Christ's time thought that these new laws were equal to the law of Moses. Which I am not sure even the authors thought this.

They did not bring anything pagan out of Babylon. They still shunned the pagan ritual and beliefs. Which again is why I do not consider them Babylon. Babylon has distinct characteristics strictly pagan in nature. and none of them are found in the noahide laws. or phariseeism.

I do, however, agree with you as to the fact this is just as dangerous as babylon when it comes to eternal things. Both lead to a place we do not wish to go.

[zone]

The jews brought alot out of babylon. One of the things was that they were afraid of failing again and falling back into captivity. So they wrote new laws. basically adding to the origional laws given by moses. Thinking if they did this. it owuld be harder to break the real. many years later the pharisees in Christ's time thought that these new laws were equal to the law of Moses. Which I am not sure even the authors thought this.

They did not bring anything pagan out of Babylon. They still shunned the pagan ritual and beliefs. Which again is why I do not consider them Babylon. Babylon has distinct characteristics strictly pagan in nature. and none of them are found in the noahide laws. or phariseeism.

I do, however, agree with you as to the fact this is just as dangerous as babylon when it comes to eternal things. Both lead to a place we do not wish to go.

gotta find out what is the Talmud and what is Moses.

http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm << new christians do not click

Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism


Level: Advanced


When non-Jews ask about Judaism, they commonly ask questions like: Do you believe in heaven and hell? In angels or the devil? What happens to the soul after death? What is the nature of G-d and the universe? The answers to questions like these define most religions; in fact, I have heard some people say that the purpose of religion is to answer these kinds of questions. Yet in Judaism, most of these cosmological issues are wide open to personal opinion. The areas of Jewish thought that most extensively discuss these issues, Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism, were traditionally not even taught to people until the age of 40, when they had completed their education in Torah and Talmud.

Mysticism in Judaism

Mysticism and mystical experiences have been a part of Judaism since the earliest days. The Torah contains many stories of mystical experiences, from visitations by angels to prophetic dreams and visions. The Talmud considers the existence of the soul and when it becomes attached to the body. Jewish tradition tells that the souls of all Jews were in existence at the time of the Giving of the Torah and were present at the time and agreed to the Covenant. There are many stories of places similar to Christian heaven and purgatory, of wandering souls and reincarnation. The Talmud contains vague hints of a mystical school of thought that was taught only to the most advanced students and was not committed to writing. There are several references in ancient sources to ma'aseh berei**** (the work of creation) and ma'aseh merkavah (the work of the chariot [of Ezekiel's vision]), the two primary subjects of mystical thought at the time.

[zone]

Talmud

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Babylonian Talmud records the opinions of the rabbis of Israel as well as of those of Babylonia....

The Talmud (Hebrew: תַּלְמוּד talmūd "instruction, learning", from a root lmd "teach, study") is a central text of mainstream Judaism. It takes the form of a record of rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, philosophy, customs and history.

The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah (c. 200 CE), the first written compendium of Judaism's Oral Law; and the Gemara (c. 500 CE), a discussion of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the Tanakh.

The terms Talmud and Gemara are often used interchangeably. The Gemara is the basis for all codes of rabbinic law and is much quoted in other rabbinic literature. The whole Talmud is also traditionally referred to as Shas (ש"ס), a Hebrew abbreviation of shisha sedarim, the "six orders" of the Mishnah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

EG you thought we had trouble with Catholic and EO Oral Traditions....man, this stuff is rank.

[eternally-gratefull]

here's an example of the Mystery Babylon connection today:

http://www.themysticheart.org/judaism.html << DO NOT CLICK HERE IF YOU ARE A NEW CHRISTIAN

its just kabbalah and what not.
zohar etc.

all bad.

check out the mystic christianity (inject Rick Joyner et al...presto - prophets and new revelation)

Sis. This does not even come close to the whole of what Babylonian taught. Even scripture teaches of a paradise, and spirits (Moses and Elijah were with Christ on the mountain) It is a misinterpretation of scripture. it might find its roots in Babylon, but it is not strictly a Babylonian pagan thing.

Babylonian believed in many Gods. had many pagan temples and practices and traditions. did not even believe in the God of Abraham. etc etc etc. which do not even come close to resembling anything in the Talmud, phariseeism or anything Jewish today. This is where we disagree. Because the babylon of revelation would resemble the babylon of the OT. Nothing you have shown me show that these jews come anywhere near to pagan worship that Babylon practiced. Like I said. They might be a daughter (where they get some of these false beliefs.) But they are not the mother of the harlots.

Still love ya though.

[zone]

Sis. This does not even come close to the whole of what Babylonian taught. Even scripture teaches of a paradise, and spirits (Moses and Elijah were with Christ on the mountain) It is a misinterpretation of scripture. it might find its roots in Babylon, but it is not strictly a Babylonian pagan thing.

Babylonian believed in many Gods. had many pagan temples and practices and traditions. did not even believe in the God of Abraham. etc etc etc. which do not even come close to resembling anything in the Talmud, phariseeism or anything Jewish today. This is where we disagree. Because the babylon of revelation would resemble the babylon of the OT. Nothing you have shown me show that these jews come anywhere near to pagan worship that Babylon practiced. Like I said. They might be a daughter (where they get some of these false beliefs.) But they are not the mother of the harlots.

Still love ya though.

hi bro.
the israelites were always back and forth into idolatry and stuff.
just because we got a nation in the Middle East today doesn't mean Moses is honored there, let alone Jesus.

Ezekiel 8
Abominations in the Temple
1In the sixth year, in the sixth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I sat in my house, with the elders of Judah sitting before me, the hand of the Lord God fell upon me there. 2Then I looked, and behold, a form that had the appearance of a man.a Below what appeared to be his waist was fire, and above his waist was something like the appearance of brightness, like gleaming metal.b 3He put out the form of a hand and took me by a lock of my head, and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the gateway of the inner court that faces north, where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provokes to jealousy. 4And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, like the vision that I saw in the valley.

5Then he said to me, “Son of man, lift up your eyes now toward the north.” So I lifted up my eyes toward the north, and behold, north of the altar gate, in the entrance, was this image of jealousy. 6And he said to me, “Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations that the house of Israel are committing here, to drive me far from my sanctuary? But you will see still greater abominations.”

7And he brought me to the entrance of the court, and when I looked, behold, there was a hole in the wall. 8Then he said to me, “Son of man, dig in the wall.” So I dug in the wall, and behold, there was an entrance. 9And he said to me, “Go in, and see the vile abominations that they are committing here.” 10So I went in and saw. And there, engraved on the wall all around, was every form of creeping things and loathsome beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel. 11And before them stood seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan standing among them. Each had his censer in his hand, and the smoke of the cloud of incense went up. 12Then he said to me, “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, each in his room of pictures? For they say, ‘The Lord does not see us, the Lord has forsaken the land.’” 13He said also to me, “You will see still greater abominations that they commit.”

14Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the Lord, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. 15Then he said to me, “Have you seen this, O son of man? You will see still greater abominations than these.”

16And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord. And behold, at the entrance of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east. 17Then he said to me, “Have you seen this, O son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations that they commit here, that they should fill the land with violence and provoke me still further to anger? Behold, they put the branch to theirc nose. 18Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.”

[zone]

^^ Babylonian Talmud ^^