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Thread: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
    This is a joke, because I do not bow down to your false believe of OSAS means I believe in works salvation as if there is no middle ground at all. That is ridiculous.
    no it is not ridiculous. if we can lose a gift. we have to earn it. A gift freely can never be taken away unless it has to be earned. and then it is no gift at all. As paul said. If it is grace, it is not of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    and as Paul also said. Abraham did not earn his justification (righteousness) it was given to him because he believed. not of works, lest he had something to boast of (take credit for)

    as for saying one can give it back. that mocks of God saying God is going to give something to someone he knew 2000 years ago, 4000 years ago, 6000 years ago. even 100000 (eternity past before time began) years ago he would never keep, but would instead turn around and reject Christ.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    no it is not ridiculous. if we can lose a gift. we have to earn it.
    You cannot loose it you give it back, and you do not have to earn it. If you give me a gift, and I accept it at first decide I do not want it and give it back, that didnt mean I had to earn ti gift. think rationally, and worship God, rather than worshiping your doctrine..

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
    You cannot loose it you give it back, and you do not have to earn it. If you give me a gift, and I accept it at first decide I do not want it and give it back, that didnt mean I had to earn ti gift. think rationally, and worship God, rather than worshiping your doctrine..
    Your not God. Your not omniscient. You do not know who will return you gift because they really did not want it in the first place. So of course you will give something to someone who says he thinks he wants it.

    Salvation is not a "test drive" gift where we can take it for a spin and see if it is what we think it is. It is a gift of God given to those who know they need it. Understand they can't earn it. And trust God at what he says and his promise. These people will not give it back. For they knew what they were receiving and are grateful for God giving it to them. they cherish it and they understand it because they have truly repented.

    Those who take it for a test drive have not repented. they are just checking it out. So they will not see its power. So of course they will give it back. John said they would, to "prove they were never of us"

    David said God knew him before he was conceived. You can't know anyone except by what you see.

    Thinking God is going to give someone a gift. he knows will reject him because they just want to take it for a test drive comes from the fact one does not know him. It mocks his diety. It mocks his omniscience. And it mocks who he is.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnandaHya View Post
    oh missed it. is it before this post?

    maybe he pmed it to you because i don't see a response to your post between your post and the one above or afterwards either....
    It's alright, I gave her an answer and wanted to see what she would say but she might just ignore me, its alright. God bless

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    Cool Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy4GODword View Post
    It's alright, I gave her an answer and wanted to see what she would say but she might just ignore me, its alright. God bless
    her? i thought we were talking to DistinctiveMinistry who is a him. its alright we'll watch and see...

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Sorry I guess meant him , keep thinking a female...for some reason

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    Lightbulb Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    http://media.sermonindex.net/1/SID1650.mp3

    "Now I hear my friend the Calvinist over there say, "Well, I like that, but still I think I can come, and though I can say with you,—

    'nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling.'

    Yet I can say this—I have had a deep experience, sir, I have been led to see the plague of my own heart, and I have felt a great deal. When I come to Christ I rely a great deal upon my feelings. I do not think you are right in calling all kinds of sinners to come to Christ, but you are right in calling me, for I am one of the right sort. I am one of the publican sort; I am pharisaical enough to think that; I think that I most certainly have a special commission to come, for I have such an experience that if I were to write my biography, you would say, 'This is a good experience; this man has a right to come to Christ.' " Well, friend, I am sorry to upset you, but I shall be compelled to do so. If you bring your experience to Christ when you come to him, you are as bad as the Romanist who brings his masses and Ave-Marias. I like your experience very well, if it be the work of God's grace in your heart, but if you bring it when you come to Christ, you put that before Christ, and it is an Anti-Christ. Away with it! away with it! When we have been preaching to poor sinners and tried to describe their state by nature and their feelings, I have been afraid after all, that we were fostering a spirit of self righteousness, and teaching our hearers to think that they must get certain feelings, before they can come to Christ. Let me just, if I can, preach the gospel in the broadest way possible, and that is the most truthful way. Christ wants your feelings no more than he does your money, and that is, not at all. If you want good experience you must come to Christ:—
    "All the fitness he requireth, is to feel your need of him."

    Yes, but stop—
    "This he gives you, 'tis his Spirit's rising beam."

    You are to come to Christ to get everything. You are not to say, "Well, I will believe first, and then come." No; go to Christ for faith. You must look to the cross even to get a sense of sin. We do not feel our sins so much before we see the cross, but we feel them most afterwards. We look to Christ first; then repentance flows from both our streaming eyes.
    "
    - Spurgeon

    A Free Salvation

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I can't say if they are related or not, I am not God and has not seen ever son born since the beginning to know who is who and who is not. I am certanly not going to deny they are. what religion they follow does not make then natural. it is their heredity that matters.
    But no-one on Earth today can prove their heredity agreed? Therefore no-one who converts to "Judaism" is a real Jew, and people who live in the state of israel and call themselves "Jewish" are NOT special in the slightest agreed? not that WE know of anyway. Fleshly Natural Israel could be ANYWHERE in the world right now OR there could even be none left at all.

    Are we agreed on that?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    All I can say is I think satan and his attacks against these people in the last 100 years would lead me to believe they are real. Why would satan attack a group of people and try to kill them off (ie Hitler) unless God still has a plan for them. even if they are in unbelief at this moment.
    This is not proof that "Jews" are in any way special. Satan would have no problem killing his spiritual children if it means advancing his dominion on earth. I mean....we know that governments kill there own in order to further their agendas (Nero burning Rome, Gulf of Tonkin, Reichstag fire, 9-11, London/Madrid/Bali bombings etc etc) so why wouldnt satan?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    As for being a convert, this does not make one a blood relative of the original 12 sons. So would not matter.
    It does matter because if we look at history, it shows that most "Jewish" folk are of Eastern European descent and therefore highly likely to be Khazarian converts (Ashkenazi/gog-magog). This can only lead us to the conclusion that most jews are not real jews. they are simply converts to Talmudism.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    when did this happen? They rejected him and cricified him. The were enemies of his church. Not to long after paul wrote these words they were overun by a roman army which destroyed their city, their temple. and dispersed them throughout the world. Just Like God predicted the would through Christ and OT prophets. When after all this happened did God regather the "dry bones" as the prophet Ezekial says come to life?
    I dont know! And you've agreed that we cannot know as we have no idea WHO natural Israel are today. So why is the flesh doctrine so important to you?

    It should be obvious from all this that FLESH DOESNT MATTER.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Syria overthrew the northern kingdom because of their sin and dispersed these tibes all over the eart. when have they ever returned and made on with the lower kingdom?> It has not happened.

    The lower kingdom (judah) was overthrone and taken captive by babylon. But returned to her land (minus the northern kingdom) until they rejected Christ. then were scattered themselves over the whole earth.

    When have these two kingdoms. these twelve sons of Jacob, ever been returned, Given life and made on in the lang God promised Abraham. and given the king promised to david (messiah) who would rule in her midst. their sins removed. their repentance pure. Their dabbling in pagan ritual and right (which they are doing now as people say) far from them because they know God and are ruled by him and observe his laws happily? This is never happened. So all Isreal can not be saved.

    not to mention. when have the times of the gentiles been fulfilled (or complete) we are still in the time of the gentiles.
    I think your reffering to ancient OT prophecy here correct? This has all been fulfilled in Christ Jesus. We must be careful not to base our doctrines on fleshly fulfillment on really old prophecy that may have already been fullfilled long ago or has spiritual fullfillment in the Church.

    Its absolutely possible that all Israel has already been saved. How will you know they have been saved when you dont know who they are? How can you say they HAVNT been saved...for the same reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I mean the natural born sons of Jacob. the twelve tribes. God promised he would save a remnant who were not defiled. I take God at his word and do not question what God says. What is in Israel today might have a part in this. But it is not even close to "all Isreal"
    I take God at His Word too. But seeing as we dont know WHO all Israel is, why worry about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I am talking about the name God gave them. Not the name man gave them. God promised a remnant. Which means there are people alive today who are from the tribe of Judah, Of Reuben, of gad, of Asher, of Naphtali, of Manasseh, of Simeon, of Levi, of Issachar, of Zebulon, of Joseph of Benjamin. Where are they? I don't know. Who are they? I don;t know. God knows. And he promised he would return them. and take away their sin, and all of them will repent, come to him. Stop diobaying the law. Stop dabbling in paganism and playing the harlot. recieve him as her savior. If God said it will happen. I am not going to question him. I trust he will make it happen. And he has kept a remnant from all these tribes and they will be saved.
    Thats fine, all Israel will be saved. Great. But we dont know who they are or where they are living or even IF they are living...right?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    As far as the church and the new covenant God, yes we are. As far as the promises God made to them. and what Paul said in romans 11. we are not. That is why paul separated saved Gentiles being grafted in. And jews which were taken out. And then said. when the time of the gentiles is complete. (because of gentile unbelief) the natural branches will be grafted back in. and "all israel" will be saved. Because they have repented.
    Shouldnt concern us though should it? I mean...the state of israel needn't have anything to do with it or most "jews" today who are descended from converts to talmudism.

    So basically what I'm saying is...."Jews" and "state of Israel" are in no wise special in this time or towards the end of times are we in agreement? Seeing as the remnant of Israel could be anywhere on Earth and spiritual Israel is the Church?

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
    You cannot loose it you give it back, and you do not have to earn it. If you give me a gift, and I accept it at first decide I do not want it and give it back, that didnt mean I had to earn ti gift. think rationally, and worship God, rather than worshiping your doctrine..
    Why would you give it back?

    Hey 4runner heres eternal salvation...

    Oh cheers God.....just gonna borrow it till Christmas ok?

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
    But no-one on Earth today can prove their heredity agreed? Therefore no-one who converts to "Judaism" is a real Jew, and people who live in the state of israel and call themselves "Jewish" are NOT special in the slightest agreed? not that WE know of anyway. Fleshly Natural Israel could be ANYWHERE in the world right now OR there could even be none left at all.

    Are we agreed on that?

    No, No one has to prove anything. Nor do I need to see proof. God said it would happen. I trust God that he will keep his promise. that is all I need to know.


    This is not proof that "Jews" are in any way special. Satan would have no problem killing his spiritual children if it means advancing his dominion on earth. I mean....we know that governments kill there own in order to further their agendas (Nero burning Rome, Gulf of Tonkin, Reichstag fire, 9-11, London/Madrid/Bali bombings etc etc) so why wouldnt satan?
    If God made a promise. And satan kept God from fulfilling that promise. It would make satan correct. And God out to be a liar. Don't think for a minute satan is trying to keep God from fulfilling his promises. It is his only hope. and it is wht Satan is working so hard to kill every jew. and has been since they were born 4000 years ago.

    I never said the jews were special. They are my enemy when it comes to the Gospel. My point is God made a promise to them. And even though they have not repented yet. That does not mean I will hate them when it comes to the election. (paul said they are to be loved according to election) Antisemetism of any kind is a dangerous thing.


    It is not about what are they doing today. It was prophesied they would rejedct Christ. and be cut off (which they are) What is important is what will happen at some point in the future. God said they will repent. God will bring them back from every nation. He will restore them to their land. And he will firgive their sins, and all (at that time) who are of the children of Israel will be saved. Not because God made them. But they finally saw the light and repented. What they are doing today has no bearing on what they will do in the future.


    It does matter because if we look at history, it shows that most "Jewish" folk are of Eastern European descent and therefore highly likely to be Khazarian converts (Ashkenazi/gog-magog). This can only lead us to the conclusion that most jews are not real jews. they are simply converts to Talmudism.
    God said he would restore them. If these jews are fakes. That does not mean there are not real jews out there. If God said "I will" I trust God. to keep his word. It is what separates God from all other Gods. When God sais "I will" he keeps his promise. If he does not, or can not because of any circumstances. He is not God.
    I dont know! And you've agreed that we cannot know as we have no idea WHO natural Israel are today. So why is the flesh doctrine so important to you?

    It should be obvious from all this that FLESH DOESNT MATTER.
    When it comes to Gods promises, It most certainly does. If God does not keep his promises, and fulfill his prophesies literally. He is not God, and is no better than any other pagan God. or satan himself.

    I think your reffering to ancient OT prophecy here correct? This has all been fulfilled in Christ Jesus. We must be careful not to base our doctrines on fleshly fulfillment on really old prophecy that may have already been fullfilled long ago or has spiritual fullfillment in the Church.
    God was not talking about the church.

    The church is not Jospeh, or jacob, or any of the children of Isreal. We can not spiritualize a prophesy of God and make it true. This makes God out to be a liar. God does not lie. When he says I will do this. He will do this. Any stray from what he promised he would do would make a non literal fulfillment of prophesy.


    I can call myself a prophet. And say the dallas cowboys will win the Superbowl. Even if it takes them 100 years to do so. My prophesy has come true. But does that make me God. or even a prophet. It makes me a man who used common sense, (they have always been a good team and will probably win again, the numbers favor my thought so it is a safe bet) so I made a general comment, and it came true.

    God would prophesy that theory would win it in 2215. If they do. God is proven to be omniscient. and this is what separates him from false prophets.

    I must interpret prophesy literally.

    If God says 70 years. he means 70 years, not more or less.

    if he says 1000 years, he means 1000 years. not more or less.

    If he says he will return all of the children of israel (flesh) from the nations where they were taken too because of their unbelief. I believe he will LITERALLY do this.

    this can't be the church. the church was not taken captive and sent all over the world. Isreal was. Thus they can not be the fulfillment of this prophesy. Unless we reject the literal promise itself.

    Its absolutely possible that all Israel has already been saved. How will you know they have been saved when you dont know who they are? How can you say they HAVNT been saved...for the same reason?
    I am not Jewish, or a Benjamin. or a gadite, or any flesh descendant of any of the children of Jacob (Israel) God said how it would happen. as I showed you, it has not happened, If it does not happen the way God said it would what kind of God is he? He is supposed to know all things. But this slipped his mind. or he got it wrong? or he made a mistake and it happened this way? Thats not my God. My God promises this. and this comes true. 100 % of the time.


    I take God at His Word too. But seeing as we dont know WHO all Israel is, why worry about it?
    I am not worried about who Israel is. I could care less today. But I do care that God fulfills his prophesies. For if he does not. or satan can prevent him from doing so. He is not much of a God. I don't want to follow a God who can not keep his promises and fulfill his prophesies

    Thats fine, all Israel will be saved. Great. But we dont know who they are or where they are living or even IF they are living...right?

    God said it will happen. It will happen. To deny it is to deny God. why would I want to deny it will happen?


    Shouldnt concern us though should it? I mean...the state of israel needn't have anything to do with it or most "jews" today who are descended from converts to talmudism.

    So basically what I'm saying is...."Jews" and "state of Israel" are in no wise special in this time or towards the end of times are we in agreement? Seeing as the remnant of Israel could be anywhere on Earth and spiritual Israel is the Church?
    I do care. Because of God does not literally fulfil his promises. He is not God. and if he is not God. I am wasting my time trying to follow him..

    Hopefully this helps you see better my perspective.

    It is not about Today, or who israel is. It is about God fulfilling his promises. and literally fulfilling ALL his prophesies.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    No, No one has to prove anything. Nor do I need to see proof. God said it would happen. I trust God that he will keep his promise. that is all I need to know.
    How do you know God hasnt already kept His promises to Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    If God made a promise. And satan kept God from fulfilling that promise. It would make satan correct. And God out to be a liar. Don't think for a minute satan is trying to keep God from fulfilling his promises. It is his only hope. and it is wht Satan is working so hard to kill every jew. and has been since they were born 4000 years ago.
    I'm not sure what your getting at but Judaism as we know it today was born about the same time as Jesus. Judaism is NOT the religion of OT Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I never said the jews were special. They are my enemy when it comes to the Gospel. My point is God made a promise to them.
    Show me where God made a promise to Jews please.

    Which Jews are you talking about and how do you know these promises havnt already been kept?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    And even though they have not repented yet. That does not mean I will hate them when it comes to the election. (paul said they are to be loved according to election) Antisemetism of any kind is a dangerous thing.
    Antisemitism is a dangerous thing. No one should be prejudiced or discriminatory against middle eastern looking people with dark skin/eyes/hair. That is racism.

    What baffles me is why you bring this up in our communications?

    Where have I shown a) hatred or b) mentioned anything about skin/eye/hair colour?

    Also, do you apply Pauls words regarding Judhans to people who call themselves Jews today? If so...why?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    It is not about what are they doing today. It was prophesied they would rejedct Christ.
    Who are you talking about? Judhans or todays "Jews"?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    and be cut off (which they are)
    They WERE?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    What is important is what will happen at some point in the future. God said they will repent. God will bring them back from every nation. He will restore them to their land. And he will firgive their sins, and all (at that time) who are of the children of Israel will be saved. Not because God made them. But they finally saw the light and repented. What they are doing today has no bearing on what they will do in the future.
    Why does all that have to be future? why cant it have happened already?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    God said he would restore them. If these jews are fakes. That does not mean there are not real jews out there.
    Restore who? ancient Israel...ancient Judhans or modern "jews"?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    If God said "I will" I trust God. to keep his word. It is what separates God from all other Gods. When God sais "I will" he keeps his promise. If he does not, or can not because of any circumstances. He is not God.
    Friend, you can relax a little bit on this stuff ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    When it comes to Gods promises, It most certainly does.
    Maybe it matters to GOD but why does FLESH matter to us? We dont have a clue who's who do we?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    God was not talking about the church.

    The church is not Jospeh, or jacob, or any of the children of Isreal. We can not spiritualize a prophesy of God and make it true.
    Was Paul spiritualizing when he said Christians are Abrahams seed and children of the promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I must interpret prophesy literally.
    ??

    (Revelation 13:1) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

    Is a huge multi-headed monster gonna rise out of the sea one day...?...?....

    ....wearing crowns?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    If God says 70 years. he means 70 years, not more or less.

    if he says 1000 years, he means 1000 years. not more or less.
    When He says a thousand hills does He mean a thousand hills?

    (Psalms 50:10) For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    If he says he will return all of the children of israel (flesh) from the nations where they were taken too because of their unbelief. I believe he will LITERALLY do this.
    How do you know this hasnt already happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    this can't be the church. the church was not taken captive and sent all over the world. Isreal was. Thus they can not be the fulfillment of this prophesy. Unless we reject the literal promise itself.
    What prophecy are you referring to exactly regarding the return of the children of Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I am not Jewish, or a Benjamin. or a gadite, or any flesh descendant of any of the children of Jacob (Israel)
    And indeed no-one on Earth can claim they ARE!

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    God said how it would happen. as I showed you, it has not happened
    I'm.....not sure you have shown me just yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I am not worried about who Israel is. I could care less today. But I do care that God fulfills his prophesies.
    Is the Church spiritual Israel? Is it important for people to recognise this fact?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    God said it will happen. It will happen. To deny it is to deny God. why would I want to deny it will happen?
    What will happen? We know ancient Israel returned to their land after the exile.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I do care. Because of God does not literally fulfil his promises. He is not God. and if he is not God. I am wasting my time trying to follow him..

    Hopefully this helps you see better my perspective.

    It is not about Today, or who israel is. It is about God fulfilling his promises. and literally fulfilling ALL his prophesies.
    Just trying to make sure your not applying these prophecies to any specific recognizable group living today thats all bud.

    We're gonna have to sort out literal vs spiritual understanding of prophecy if we are to discuss the actual scriptures me thinks.

    I assume you agree some NT prophecy is hugely metaphorical yes? Like Rev?

    I assume you agree that at least SOME OT prophecy concerned the ancient House of Israel ONLY and is already fullfilled right?

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
    How do you know God hasnt already kept His promises to Israel?
    Because Israel has not been returned to their land. after because of unbelief they were taken into exhile and spread throughout the earth. Has not repented. Has not found their messiah (they are still looking for him. they do not as of yet know he has already been here. The son of David has not set up his throne in jeruslem. The times of the gentiles has not yet been complete I could go on and on and on.
    I'm not sure what your getting at but Judaism as we know it today was born about the same time as Jesus. Judaism is NOT the religion of OT Israel.
    I am not sure what your getting at. We are not talking about Judaism or any other religion. We are talking about God keeping his promise to the natural children of Israel. He promised he would return them. He promised he would make an end of their sin. He promised he would come to earth and reign on David's throne. He has not done any of these things yet. If Satan can keep God from doing this by killing every natural born child of Israel, He can keep God from fulfiling his promises, which have not been fulfilled yet.

    Show me where God made a promise to Jews please.
    I have showed you many. The dry bones (which could not be the church, but only national Israel can fulfill this promise) Romans 11. Which has not been fulfilled. There are more. the prophesy of Daniel which has not been fulfilled. Jeremiah which has not been fulfilled. The Abraham covenant has not even been completely fulfilled.

    The only conditional covenant God gave Israel was the mosaic. Of which God promised them if they did not follow his ways he would scatter them over the earth. He has done this. But he also said if they repent, he would return them to their land. This is the promise Daniel was refering to when God gave him the 70 year prophesy. It had nothing to do with the church


    Which Jews are you talking about and how do you know these promises havnt already been kept?
    I am talking about all Israel. Your the one who keeps saying jew. The jew is a part of Israel. but just 2/12 part if you go by mans interpretation of what a jew is. and 1/12 part if you go by Gods (of the son of Judah) what about the other 11 children? the promises were made to them too.

    And I know for reasons I have stated now multiple times.

    Also, do you apply Pauls words regarding Judhans to people who call themselves Jews today? If so...why?
    I have never applied it to people who call them jews today. Again your the one who keeps saying this not me.

    Who are you talking about? Judhans or todays "Jews"?
    You have got to be kidding me! Are you serious? I have answered this many times.

    It was prophesied that ISRAEL would reject their messiah. That they would be scattered. But paul is saying THEY WILL RETURN. They are ISRAEL. if the jews in Israel today are a part of them they are. if they are not. it does not take away from Gods promise to ISRAEL.



    They WERE?
    You mean you do not believe Paul when he said they have been cut off?

    Do you really want to discuss this? or are you mocking me? I am confused. I am trying to be serious here..


    Why does all that have to be future? why cant it have happened already?
    Are they in Israel today? Have they repented and received Christ? Have they been grafted back into the tree where the vine is feeding them? Has what Paul said been fulfilled? Is Christ on David's throne ruling the nations with the nation if Israel at his side? No. so why would I believe it has been fulfilled? I can't!

    Restore who? ancient Israel...ancient Judhans or modern "jews"?
    What did God say? who is a natural israelite? Are you? I am not/ Are the pople in Israel today? I don;t know. Are their any out there ? There better be or God can not fulfil his promise


    Friend, you can relax a little bit on this stuff ok?

    I was relaxed. I was just stating a point. And what I believe. and why I believe it.

    Many people do not want to take Gods prophesies literally. They want to allegorise or spiritualise his prophesies. I am not saying you are. I don't know. But many do. I do not and can not. And that is why




    Maybe it matters to GOD but why does FLESH matter to us? We dont have a clue who's who do we?
    Well God made a promise to the flesh. So should we rejedft Gods promise just because it doesw not matter to us?

    Was Paul spiritualizing when he said Christians are Abrahams seed and children of the promise?
    Paul spoke of the church, and Gods promise to abraham (in you shall all the Earth be blessed) he took God literal on this promise. Among other OT prophesies where gentiles are included.

    But Paul did not say this in Romans 11. he separated Israel and Gentile. Why would we want to put them back together again when paul separated them? Which is how this convo got started I believe.



    ??

    (Revelation 13:1) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

    Is a huge multi-headed monster gonna rise out of the sea one day...?...?....

    ....wearing crowns?



    When He says a thousand hills does He mean a thousand hills?
    so your saying that is not going to happen? that no beast is going to arise? Even if God used terms to represent literal things. The prophesy will literally be fulfilled.

    When God says he is going to give life to dry bones. To bring them who was scattered among the nations because of unbelief. do we take him literally? Do we symbolise this to mean the church. Who was not scattered because of unbeliefg. But was brought in because of belief?

    when God says he will rule for 1000 years. do we take him literally?



    How do you know this hasnt already happened?
    for the second time this respons.

    Are they in Israel (the land promised abraham)? have they repented. have they recieved their messiah? Is Christ regning on david's throne? Are the times of the gentiles complete?



    What prophecy are you referring to exactly regarding the return of the children of Israel?



    And indeed no-one on Earth can claim they ARE!



    I'm.....not sure you have shown me just yet.



    Is the Church spiritual Israel? Is it important for people to recognise this fact?



    What will happen? We know ancient Israel returned to their land after the exile.



    Just trying to make sure your not applying these prophecies to any specific recognizable group living today thats all bud.

    We're gonna have to sort out literal vs spiritual understanding of prophecy if we are to discuss the actual scriptures me thinks.

    I assume you agree some NT prophecy is hugely metaphorical yes? Like Rev?

    I assume you agree that at least SOME OT prophecy concerned the ancient House of Israel ONLY and is already fullfilled right?

    I am not going to answer every response. I seem to be repeating myself. I have given you what I believe and shown why I believe it.; If you do not agree. this is fine. But I do not feel like repeating myself over and over.
    Last edited by eternally-gratefull; August 11th, 2011 at 06:40 PM.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by distinctiveministry View Post
    Jeremiah 31:31-34
    “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


    Given that Jeremiah states and the author of Hebrews quotes that this covenant is with the houses of Israel and Judah, and that the New Covenant is never applied to Gentiles in any passage of the New Testament (as far as I can think of off the top of my head), is the New Covenant only for Israel? The only passage I can think of right now where Gentiles and the New Covenant have any interaction is 1 Corinthians 11, when Paul instructs Gentiles on the proper observance of the Lord's Supper. Also, Paul is clear in Galatians 3 that Gentiles are reconciled to God on the basis of God's promises to Abraham in Genesis 12 and 22, not through the Mosaic covenant.
    The thirty-third verse describes what has happened in my life. The Lord, over a period of time, gave me some rules to follow. When I obeyed, my problems vanished.

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    Talking Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    The thirty-third verse describes what has happened in my life. The Lord, over a period of time, gave me some rules to follow. When I obeyed, my problems vanished.
    I think God lays down something different for each person's life. for example some are called to be ennuchs and never marry like the Apostle Paul while others are allowed to marry and raise a family like the other Apostles. That is why a personal and intimate relationship with God is so important so that we do not try and live someone else's life but the life God has planned for us according to the laws He has placed on our hearts

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
    Why would you give it back?
    I am not sure why anyone would, but you can, unless you do not believe in free will.

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by EG
    Because Israel has not been returned to their land. after because of unbelief they were taken into exhile and spread throughout the earth. Has not repented. Has not found their messiah (they are still looking for him. they do not as of yet know he has already been here. The son of David has not set up his throne in jeruslem. The times of the gentiles has not yet been complete I could go on and on and on.
    Dude....YOU DONT KNOW WHO NATURAL ISRAEL IS!

    We've already established this. So please tell me HOW you know what has and has not been fulfilled regarding that people?

    HOW do you know they havn't repented?

    HOW do you know they are not living in jerusalem right now?

    HOW do you know they all arnt repose by now and reigning with Christ in Heaven?

    HOW do you know that the remnant of natural Israel are not Christians who live in Jerusalem today? Repentent redeemed Christians who happen to be flesh of the House of Israel!

    And where do you get off saying that Christ is not reigning right now? Is He not your King NOW? Does He not have a Kingdom NOW?

    Please answer this as it is pointless to continue if we cant sort this out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
    I am not sure why anyone would, but you can, unless you do not believe in free will.
    Gods power has a totally dominant influence over my free will making it effectively impossible to give back (?) salvation. Dunno 'bout you.

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    heres yur coffee Doc and some muffins

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
    Dude....YOU DONT KNOW WHO NATURAL ISRAEL IS!
    We have already been over this. Natural Isreal is whoever is born of the flesh from the 12 sons of Jacob. Also known as Israel.

    We've already established this. So please tell me HOW you know what has and has not been fulfilled regarding that people?
    I have told you three times now.

    HOW do you know they havn't repented?


    Do you see isreal in its nation praising Christ and the God that saved them? Have you ever> I have not. If you know something I don't know please share.


    HOW do you know they are not living in jerusalem right now?
    if "All Israel" (Natural born sons of Jacob) was living in Jerusalem and had repented and received her Messiah. And God was their God and he had returned them to her city. There would be no dome of the rock on the temple mount. Not to mention I odubt they would all fit in jerusalem. .
    HOW do you know they all arnt repose by now and reigning with Christ in Heaven?
    That was never a part of the covenant promise given to Israel. The promise was reigning on earth, with king messiah on his throne in Jerusalem. Heaven is not Jerusalem. If you look at all the prophesies concerning "king messiah" in the OT you will find that only a few have been fulfilled. Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the suffering servant. Who Israel did not realise was the same as king messiah. Thats why they rejected him. And also why Satan did not try to stop his death, he was fooled also. If satan knew what Christ really came to do, he would have done everything in his power to stop it from happening. This was the mystery spoken of by Paul which shut up th epowere that be (Satan and his army) and made a spectacle of Him.

    HOW do you know that the remnant of natural Israel are not Christians who live in Jerusalem today? Repentent redeemed Christians who happen to be flesh of the House of Israel!
    They might be. But Paul did not say a remnant would be saved, He said ALL ISRAEL will be saved.

    And where do you get off saying that Christ is not reigning right now? Is He not your King NOW? Does He not have a Kingdom NOW?
    I was never promised a king. I was promised a savior. David was promised a king, to sit on his throne in jerusalem And be given a kingdom. to that those who have sought to opress his people will no longer oppress them again. And he will give his people (natural jews) a land in which to live, and a rest (since God did not let him build him a house for him).

    The davidic covenant has not been fulfilled. This is what the people in jerusalem and surrounding areas thought Christ came to do. But he did not do this. It was not his plan at the time. He had to save all mankind first.

    Since the jews rejected him, He gave his chuch to the gentiles through Paul. Since then. this "time of the gentiles" has been in operation. Yet paul says when this time is complete. All Israel will be saved. This time has not been completed yet. The church is still gentile with a few remnant Israel who have come to Christ.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    We are talking about God keeping his promise to the natural children of Israel. He promised he would return them. He promised he would make an end of their sin. He promised he would come to earth and reign on David's throne. He has not done any of these things yet. .


    Daniel 9 - fulfilled:

    24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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