"Reformed" "continuationists" and Gutless Gracers

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#1
"Reformed" "continuationists" and Gutless Gracers



by Dan Phillips at: PYROMANIACS

As I was mulling various things over, I hit upon a connection between two seldom-associated doctrinal groups. Perhaps in time this connection I'm making, existing at present only in my head, will prove prescient. I hope not.

On the one hand, we have "Gutless Gracers." This is a term I've used here, denoting a mindset I Biblically deal with at some length in Chapter Ten of... you know, that book. Advocates would call themselves "grace" believers; critics call them "non-Lordship" teachers, I call them "gutless gracers."

As presented by themselves, the position is that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. So far, so great. However, it is when they go on to define saving faith in such a way as to exclude repentance and submission to Christ's Lordship that these folks run into grave error. To them, such elements involve "works-salvation," and are to be strictly rejected.

The practical result — to put it in terms they would themselves seldom own — is that a man can continue to live like Hell and still go to Heaven. As long as he voices the opinion that Jesus is the Son of God, or assents to the proposition that Jesus died to save him from sin('s penalty), he's okay with God.

A critic (such as I) would say that the real heart of the position is not that one is saved by faith alone (a precious truth), but rather one is saved by claiming-to-have-faith alone (a pernicious error). This "salvation" is sheerly forensic and eschatological, one might almost say theoretical. It doesn't actually save anyone from sin's dominion or power. It does not necessarily result in owning or obeying Christ as Lord. These are optional, albeit desirable, effects.

I have actually known of advocates of this school who say that one can be a Christian Hindu, a Christian homosexual, even a Christian atheist. Now, however it may sound, the case is not that they are actual theoretical relativists or liberals; far from it. As a rule, they are fundamentalistic in their affirmation of Scripture's theoretical inerrancy. Nor would they say that it is a good thing to occupy any of these positions.

It is simply that gutless-gracers are rigorously consistent in the outworking of their fatally-flawed premise: sanctification in any measurable degree is not a necessary result of by-grace-alone-through-faith-alone salvation. If Johnny says he "prayed the prayer" when he was 5, 10, 15 or 20, then no matter what Johnny goes on to do or not do, Johnny is saved, saved, wonderfully saved.

At this point, the reader's patience may be waning. "And what," he may ask, "does this possibly have to do with Reformed continuationism?"

So far, not much. As a rule, formal gutless-gracers tend to be warped dispensationalists, and "Reformed" "continuationists" tend to be non-dispensationalists. Real dispensationalism should be fatal to the gutless-grace position, as real reformed thinking should be to "continuationism"; but that is beside the point at the moment. The point is that both schools of thought are seldom wed, to the point where ignorant "continuationists" often deride all cessationists as being dispensationalists. Which annoys anti-dispensational reformed cessationists no end, and tickles me some. But I digress.

So now I'll show you the connection.

First, have this firm in your mind: the gutless-gracer insists that real, live, saving faith can exist in the heart of someone who never, ever gives the least bit of real-world evidence in his life and priorities and choices that actual conversion has taken place. In some invisible, inaccessible realm that no eye can see, there has been this massive shift — but observable history is absolutely innocent as to its occurrence. We just have to believe it's there. It's happened, because the professor says so, and the position dictates that it is so.




And so when we look at the Bible and see that Jesus defines saving faith as necessitating submission to His authority (Lk. 6:46; Jn. 14:15; 15;14), that Jesus defines genuine discipleship as involving continuance in His word (Jn. 8:31-32), that Paul insists that it is both impossible and impermissible for a converted person to continue to live in practical denial of Christ's Lordship (Romans 6), that John in his first epistle repeatedly emphasizes that genuine faith will necessarily involve doctrinal soundness and practical holiness, and that James laughs to scorn the notion that saving faith can produce no works — when we see all that, and look at the lives of these professed believers and see nothing like any of those evidences of genuine faith — we are required simply to "dumb down" the definition, in order to accommodate reality and save the theory.

And so the entrance to the Kingdom looks less like a needle's eye, and more like the bar on a Limbo dance — pretty low, and you can dance under it.

I've read leading advocates doing just precisely that. They scramble for shadows, illusions and chimera, call them "fruit," and cling to the theory, though to anyone else it is glaringly obvious that what we are seeing is nothing like what the Bible describes as genuine Christian reality.

Sharp cookies that you are, I wager that virtually every one of you sees the point now — though some of you will generously (if unwittingly) prove my point decisively by arguing against it, simply because you don't like it and change can be unwelcome, even if needed.

Because you see the "reformed" "continuationist" does the exact same thing, in order to prop up his theory.

Every honest objective observer admits that nothing of the caliber of dominical/apostolic revelatory and attesting activity is taking place today. Nothing of that caliber has taken place since the first century. This is a simple, incontrovertible fact. The Bible is not getting bigger, genuine apostles are not ranging about among the churches, dead are not being raised on command. There simply is no post-apostolic continuation of revelatory/attesting activity, and never has been.

Faced with the evidence, yet formally professing the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture, the would-be Reformed continuationist is faced with two choices:

  1. Abandon his insupportable "continuationism"; or
  2. Mess with the evidence/standard-of-proof nexus.
And, to a man or woman, unable to produce new Scripture or apostolic-level revelatorily-gifted individuals, unwilling to repent of their error, desperate to validate their experience at all costs, they opt for #2.





In this, then, they are mirror images of those very gutless-gracers against whose antinomianism they otherwise rail. They reject the gutless-grace position, with its theoretical affirmation and practical denial of real-life implications of Christ's Lordship... yet, at the same time, they insist on a theoretical affirmation of continuing apostolic/dominical-grade signs and wonders and revelation, while being equally incapable of pointing to any actual examples. So, like their gutless-grace brothers, they are forced to lower the bar so astronomically as to accommodate virtually anything as proof.

So, in both cases, it goes like this:

  1. The theory is all-important and must be preserved.
  2. The theory suggests there should be evidence, and must be a standard of proof.
  3. There is no evidence.
  4. But see #1, above.
  5. Solution: redefine "evidence," lower "standard of proof."
  6. Result: see #1, above.
As a result, then, both echo the famous line from The Treasure of the Sierra Madre:

"Fruits? We ain't got no fruits. We don't need no fruits. I don't have to show you any stinking fruits!"

Ah, if only more Christians as a whole responded with the wisdom of Humphrey Bogart's character "Dobbs," and said, "Better not come any closer!"


Pyromaniacs
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#2
That's good but wat too intellectual for me. I get lost with isms and ists always. My bad, call it ignorance whatever.
This is how I understand God and the finish work of the cross. Saved by grace, justified by faith and sanctified toward glorification. By Gods grace He revealedto me Jesus and by Jesus taking my penalty I'm in fellowship with the Father again by way of the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised.
I attend a grace preaching church, however at times even they apply that grace overlooks things that are against what's written in the bible.
I know that when I have struggled it was by my prays of Him to deliver from the things I struggled with. When I was ignorant He send people in path toremind and encourage me. We have a part, smallpart albeit but still we must recognize our weaknesses and declare them boldly before God that we need help.
Not even Paul was instantaneously perfected, he said he hadn't attained it, always had a thorn of Satan in his flesh whatever that may have been but His grace is sufficient to see us thru to the end.
As for apostles prophets that too theological a discussion for me, God can dowhatever He wants whenever. As for people being raised from the dead, we were all dead once but brought to life in Jesus. Whether it happens physically today I can't say yes or no, its ones opinion and opinions count little to me. What I do believe is as it's written, God can do anything, when He does it's by His will pleasure and design.
Gets so tiring for me theological debate, scholarly teachings, this scripture means this or that, I'm right your wrong just "lowers the bar"
God knows what His doing, most the time we don't.
Summary, as long as I acknowledge Him in all my ways He will direct my steps to stay on the narrow path. To cast off the things that hinder me, to read His word, love God and my neighbor, not just the brethren, faults and all. Then grace abounds even more cause "my work" has been to follow the instruction manual which by doing so He will empower, not me.

Lol any way, "consumes theology thesis"
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#3
Cessationism and Rebellion​

Adapted from
Commentary on 1 & 2 Thessalonians
Vincent Cheung

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. (1Thessalonians 5:19-20)
Verses 19-22 discuss the apostolic policy toward prophecy.

Paul writes, "Do not treat prophecies with contempt," but he tells the Christians to "test everything." Cessationism is the false doctrine that the manifestations of miraculous endowments such as those listed in 1 Corinthians 12 have ceased since the days of the apostles and the
completion of the Bible. Although there is no biblical evidence for this position, a main motive for this invention is to secure the sufficiency of Scripture and the finality (completion) of Scripture. However, it has been shown that the continuation of miraculous manifestations does not in fact contradict these two doctrines or put them at risk.

1. Thus cessationism is both unbiblical and unnecessary.
More than that, cessationism is also evil and dangerous. This is because if cessationism isfalse, then those who advocate this doctrine are preaching rebellion against the Lord.The Bible commands Christians, "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual
gifts, especially the gift of prophecy" (1 Corinthians 14:1).

If cessationism is correct butwe do not know it, then we could still safely obey this instruction, although we will not receive what we desire. That is, if prophecy has ceased but I think that it continues, then I could still desire the gift of prophecy in accordance with this command, but I will not receive the gift of prophecy. No harm is done.

2. On the other hand, since the cessationist teaches that prophecy has ceased, then although the Bible says "desire spiritual gifts," he will not desire spiritual gifts, since the spiritual gifts are no longer in operation, and what gifts people think they have are necessarily false. This also applies to prophecy in particular.

So although Paul says, "Do not treat prophecies with contempt," the cessationist must treat all prophecies with contempt, since
he believes that prophecy has ceased, so that all prophecies today are false. His view toward prophecy must be "reject everything" instead of "test everything." But again, if cessationism is false, then this person would be preaching rebellion against the biblical
commands to desire and test spiritual manifestations.

Since the commands "desire spiritual gifts," "do not treat prophecies with contempt," and "test everything" are revealed by divine and infallible authority, the cessationist must present an infallible argument to render them inapplicable for today. If he cannot provide
this but he still advocates cessationism in the face of these explicit biblical commands,
1


See Don Codling, Sola Scriptura and the Revelatory Gifts (Sentinel Press, 2005).
2


If prophecy has ceased but I think that it continues, I will desire it and fail to receive it, and then it is
possible that I think that I have received it (and this is possible because I falsely think that it continues) and
proceed to prophesy. This would be a false prophecy. There is indeed harm in this, but the problem is not in
thinking that prophecy continues, but in thinking that I have the gift when I do not. So it is a related but
separate issue, and it is addressed by Paul's instruction, that is, in testing the alleged prophecy, and not in
imposing the unbiblical doctrine of cessationism


then is it not obvious that he has condemned himself before God,


even if this person is right that the gifts have ceased? No Christian should dare follow such a person or believe his doctrine. If a person preaches cessationism but cannot prove it – if he cannot provide
an infallible argument for it (since the command to desire spiritual manifestations is clear and infallible), then this means that he consciously preaches rebellion against some of the Bible's straightforward commands.

Why then, should he not be removed from the ministry or even excommunicated from the church?
Since the arguments for cessationism are forced and feeble, and since the doctrine presents so great a danger, it is best to believe the Bible as it is written, and obey its commands as they are stated – that is, "desire spiritual gifts" and "test everything."

This position is faithful to the direct statements of Scripture, but it requires courageous resistance to fallacious arguments, academic bullying, and church traditions. Inherent in this biblical approach is protection against charismatic fanatics and false miracles. The Bible instructs us to "test everything," and since it is sufficient, it is able to expose counterfeit miracles and false prophecies.

The answer is not to assert that the gifts have ceased, but to follow the instructions that the Bible has already given on the subject. This position, that we should follow what Scripture says, would offer us perfect protection even if cessationism is correct. If prophecy has indeed ceased, then any prophecy today is false. Since the Bible is a sufficient revelation, the information in it will enable us to "test everything," so that any alleged prophecy today will either be tested, and finding it false, it will be condemned, or if the content is such that it is untestable, it will be ignored. Cessationism teaches us to abandon some divine commands without divine warrant, and thus preaches rebellion, but the position that we should obey both "desire spiritual gifts" and "test everything" preaches obedience to the Lord, and it is at the same time able to protect itself against all deception.

There is no danger in desiring spiritual gifts as long as
we also test everything – if all spiritual manifestations are false, then we will expose all of them as false when we test them, and so we will regard all of them as false. A person who does this is safe from judgment.
http://www.vincentcheung.com/other/cessrebellion.pdf

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#4
ya we disagree.

seriously....these things are not of God.

the real apostles and prophets gifts and offices ceased.

tongues is a word that mean language...pentecost was gentile languages.
it just was.

the church always believed that.

its only some denominations today that don't.

anyhoot.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#5
That's good but wat too intellectual for me. I get lost with isms and ists always. My bad, call it ignorance whatever.
This is how I understand God and the finish work of the cross. Saved by grace, justified by faith and sanctified toward glorification. By Gods grace He revealedto me Jesus and by Jesus taking my penalty I'm in fellowship with the Father again by way of the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised.
I attend a grace preaching church, however at times even they apply that grace overlooks things that are against what's written in the bible.
I know that when I have struggled it was by my prays of Him to deliver from the things I struggled with. When I was ignorant He send people in path toremind and encourage me. We have a part, smallpart albeit but still we must recognize our weaknesses and declare them boldly before God that we need help.
Not even Paul was instantaneously perfected, he said he hadn't attained it, always had a thorn of Satan in his flesh whatever that may have been but His grace is sufficient to see us thru to the end.
As for apostles prophets that too theological a discussion for me, God can dowhatever He wants whenever. As for people being raised from the dead, we were all dead once but brought to life in Jesus. Whether it happens physically today I can't say yes or no, its ones opinion and opinions count little to me. What I do believe is as it's written, God can do anything, when He does it's by His will pleasure and design.
Gets so tiring for me theological debate, scholarly teachings, this scripture means this or that, I'm right your wrong just "lowers the bar"
God knows what His doing, most the time we don't.
Summary, as long as I acknowledge Him in all my ways He will direct my steps to stay on the narrow path. To cast off the things that hinder me, to read His word, love God and my neighbor, not just the brethren, faults and all. Then grace abounds even more cause "my work" has been to follow the instruction manual which by doing so He will empower, not me.

Lol any way, "consumes theology thesis"
hi alex.
ya.
my posts arent for everyone.
zone.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#6
hi alex.
ya.
my posts arent for everyone.
zone.
God makes ua all different, sone gifted more than others, I come under less gifted in intellectual scholarly discussions, I accept that, don't begrudge others who are.
Get miffed when sone think its liscense to look down there nose at me but even then I accept it as God telling I'm not dead to myself yet by getting miffed to start with lol

Love you zone, you do have a brilliant mind
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#7
ya we disagree.

seriously....these things are not of God.

the real apostles and prophets gifts and offices ceased.

tongues is a word that mean language...pentecost was gentile languages.
it just was.

the church always believed that. Not true. that is an UNproven statement.

its only some denominations today that don't.

anyhoot.

Yeah you dissagree becasue you refuse to humble yourself and ASK GOD, and then WAIT for HIM to tell you.

To see FALSE ones doesnt mean that the TRUE ones dont exist. if you want to NOW make it your mission to attack somthing that is BIBLICAL, with a belief that is UN BIBLICAL thats your personal buisnes, but do not poison the well.

Stick to uncovering the FALSE ONES, and maybe pray and ask GOD to show you the True ones. I love you Zone.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#8
Yeah you dissagree becasue you refuse to humble yourself and ASK GOD, and then WAIT for HIM to tell you.

To see FALSE ones doesnt mean that the TRUE ones dont exist. if you want to NOW make it your mission to attack somthing that is BIBLICAL, with a belief that is UN BIBLICAL thats your personal buisnes, but do not poison the well.

Stick to uncovering the FALSE ONES, and maybe pray and ask GOD to show you the True ones. I love you Zone.
DF, lighten up bro, zone was humble enough to say she disagrees, I see this thread as one of being to articulate to the best of our intellect allows in sharing how what and why we believe. New day brother, let whatever the past held be left there.
Let's just try and keep the thread open to discuss without "poisoning" the debate with unwarranted statements, please.
Doctrine has been argued over for centuries, and we are supposed to be the best civilized generation to date lol come on, let honor and respect reign even when we disagree, leave personalities out of it and show true character of Christ Jesus, remember He went to the cross for all forgiving them and not holding anything against them, if He didn't it was game over, tilt, Satan won.
 
Last edited:
Aug 18, 2011
971
7
0
#9
I guess this is one of those topics that gets under some peoples collar it's a hot debate at the best of times it would seem.
I believe that the Holy Spirit works miracles every day through many people some who may not even know it. Might not be in the form of tongues but it's working yes indeed IT'S WORKING
SELAH
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#10
May people pray God guards their mouth to convey their heart for Jesus
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#11
So, you dont see someone claiming to be AGAINST false doctrine, and then going and propagating false Doctrine to be wrong? I dont post to insult, or hurt, or hate, i post IN love, very calmly the absolute truth.

Cessationism is FALSE. plain and simply. to deny the fact that it is, is denying scripture. SHE knows fasle doctrine, which is why im shocked and appauled at her not only stance on cessationism, but sheer assualt on anything that isnt. When i met Zone she was on the fence about it. and even admitted to me that The perfect beign the bible was silly(unless that was a lie) and then she became further and further deceived by cessationism. Its a DANGEROUS doctrine, on the same level as Benny hinn, and all those fake sorceror people. YOU may be one Consumed i dotn remeber, but YOU dotn go around attacking it. what she is deceived into doing is HARMING the body not edifying it, not brigign it closer. She feels she has a job to do...well then she needs to PRAY way more then anyone, if she feels its HER duty to expose ALL EVIL, and it rest soly on her to be the wolf slayer, then she better Pray liek ther is NO tomorrow, becasue if SHE is proagating a flase doctrine, in claim that it is AGAISNT God...then she is a hypocrite, deceived, and getting dimmer. I dotn really care about how someone veiws me. I care about peoples souls, and there spiritual wellbeing, And honestly i REALLY think people who are cessationists need to PRAY HARD untill GOD tells them theat they are correct, and to STOP using the carnal mind, which is GODS ENEMY and START seeking HIS mind toguide.

I love YOU, adn I Love Zone. But all this needs to stop. EXPOSE fasle prophets, please DO! but do NOT loath prophesy, not for my sake but for yours, adn the babies in Chrsit who are allready struglling, and confused. they dont need more.

So please continue. Expose, but dont viciously attack. You can have your veiws, if you dont want to change them thats between GOD and You. But STOP tossing around a false doctrine. its flase. bad. evil. Rebelion. Scripture twisitng. Changing the WORD. Taking AWAY from the WORD, and adding to. i know your heart isnt bent on doign that Zone, so PLEASE bring this before God in prayer. I love you VERY much. I wouldnt say a thign if i didnt. And i love all you guys to reading this. But again Cessationism is poison.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#12
So, you dont see someone claiming to be AGAINST false doctrine, and then going and propagating false Doctrine to be wrong? I dont post to insult, or hurt, or hate, i post IN love, very calmly the absolute truth.

Cessationism is FALSE. plain and simply. to deny the fact that it is, is denying scripture. SHE knows fasle doctrine, which is why im shocked and appauled at her not only stance on cessationism, but sheer assualt on anything that isnt. When i met Zone she was on the fence about it. and even admitted to me that The perfect beign the bible was silly(unless that was a lie) and then she became further and further deceived by cessationism. Its a DANGEROUS doctrine, on the same level as Benny hinn, and all those fake sorceror people. YOU may be one Consumed i dotn remeber, but YOU dotn go around attacking it. what she is deceived into doing is HARMING the body not edifying it, not brigign it closer. She feels she has a job to do...well then she needs to PRAY way more then anyone, if she feels its HER duty to expose ALL EVIL, and it rest soly on her to be the wolf slayer, then she better Pray liek ther is NO tomorrow, becasue if SHE is proagating a flase doctrine, in claim that it is AGAISNT God...then she is a hypocrite, deceived, and getting dimmer. I dotn really care about how someone veiws me. I care about peoples souls, and there spiritual wellbeing, And honestly i REALLY think people who are cessationists need to PRAY HARD untill GOD tells them theat they are correct, and to STOP using the carnal mind, which is GODS ENEMY and START seeking HIS mind toguide.

I love YOU, adn I Love Zone. But all this needs to stop. EXPOSE fasle prophets, please DO! but do NOT loath prophesy, not for my sake but for yours, adn the babies in Chrsit who are allready struglling, and confused. they dont need more.

So please continue. Expose, but dont viciously attack. You can have your veiws, if you dont want to change them thats between GOD and You. But STOP tossing around a false doctrine. its flase. bad. evil. Rebelion. Scripture twisitng. Changing the WORD. Taking AWAY from the WORD, and adding to. i know your heart isnt bent on doign that Zone, so PLEASE bring this before God in prayer. I love you VERY much. I wouldnt say a thign if i didnt. And i love all you guys to reading this. But again Cessationism is poison.
Hey iv stated my position, read my "thesis" lol, I'll just sit here at Jesus feet while you go round the mountain with her so to speak, that's if she takes the bait you've just laid. When are people going to realise this is a forum to discuss things relating to Christ.
Someone comes along and denys the diety of Jesus I'm in, boots and all, yet even then with love and without name calling. Each to their own. There's passion that's good, then again there's passion that's damaging.

Bless you brother, definately not looking for a contentious argument with you, that's my choice, hope you reciprocate the sentiment
 
Mar 11, 2011
887
5
0
#13
So, you dont see someone claiming to be AGAINST false doctrine, and then going and propagating false Doctrine to be wrong? I dont post to insult, or hurt, or hate, i post IN love, very calmly the absolute truth.

Cessationism is FALSE. plain and simply. to deny the fact that it is, is denying scripture. SHE knows fasle doctrine, which is why im shocked and appauled at her not only stance on cessationism, but sheer assualt on anything that isnt. When i met Zone she was on the fence about it. and even admitted to me that The perfect beign the bible was silly(unless that was a lie) and then she became further and further deceived by cessationism. Its a DANGEROUS doctrine, on the same level as Benny hinn, and all those fake sorceror people. YOU may be one Consumed i dotn remeber, but YOU dotn go around attacking it. what she is deceived into doing is HARMING the body not edifying it, not brigign it closer. She feels she has a job to do...well then she needs to PRAY way more then anyone, if she feels its HER duty to expose ALL EVIL, and it rest soly on her to be the wolf slayer, then she better Pray liek ther is NO tomorrow, becasue if SHE is proagating a flase doctrine, in claim that it is AGAISNT God...then she is a hypocrite, deceived, and getting dimmer. I dotn really care about how someone veiws me. I care about peoples souls, and there spiritual wellbeing, And honestly i REALLY think people who are cessationists need to PRAY HARD untill GOD tells them theat they are correct, and to STOP using the carnal mind, which is GODS ENEMY and START seeking HIS mind toguide.

I love YOU, adn I Love Zone. But all this needs to stop. EXPOSE fasle prophets, please DO! but do NOT loath prophesy, not for my sake but for yours, adn the babies in Chrsit who are allready struglling, and confused. they dont need more.

So please continue. Expose, but dont viciously attack. You can have your veiws, if you dont want to change them thats between GOD and You. But STOP tossing around a false doctrine. its flase. bad. evil. Rebelion. Scripture twisitng. Changing the WORD. Taking AWAY from the WORD, and adding to. i know your heart isnt bent on doign that Zone, so PLEASE bring this before God in prayer. I love you VERY much. I wouldnt say a thign if i didnt. And i love all you guys to reading this. But again Cessationism is poison.
I would like to be the 2nd witness to this; and thank-you very much Deadflesh.

God Bless You :)

Forever in Christ :)
 
Mar 11, 2011
887
5
0
#14
May people pray God guards their mouth to convey their heart for Jesus
I would like to 2nd witness this also; as, little children, this is the last time, and understand, don't just beleive, but rather know and do realize that the greater sin of man, comes out of his mouth, not so much what goes into ones mouth etc...

Strive, Labour, Work and especially PRAY daily for cleansing and Help from God, to help us not hurt one another with our words, or how will we ever come together in Christ :confused:

Forever in Christ :)
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#15
lol alright i'm going to tag this and get back to it when the kids go down for a nap this afternoon. Good Morning Zone, DF, Consumed, WeStand, Musk... ok can't spell that off the top of my head but :) hope you had a lovely night :) catch ya soon ;)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#16
Yeah you dissagree becasue you refuse to humble yourself and ASK GOD, and then WAIT for HIM to tell you.

To see FALSE ones doesnt mean that the TRUE ones dont exist. if you want to NOW make it your mission to attack somthing that is BIBLICAL, with a belief that is UN BIBLICAL thats your personal buisnes, but do not poison the well.

Stick to uncovering the FALSE ONES, and maybe pray and ask GOD to show you the True ones. I love you Zone.
hi DF
i'm not attacking anything with this thread.
i'm posting to encourage my brothers and sisters out there.

here's a short story about my ASKING GOD ABOUT THESE THINGS:

i attended a church that was founded by folks from "The Toronto Blessing".
after much drumming and calling for FIRE FIRE FIRE, dancing and flag waving, there was much action going on (falling down and so on).

they layed hands on me and imparted a spirit that caused me to stand frozen in place for an unspecified amount of time (Fatima comes to mind) where i saw flashing lights and streams of gold and silver, with a facelss "man", robed, stepping out from the bright lights, holding out a hand to me.

at the time i believed, naturally enough it was Jesus.

later we staggered around feeling drunk, uncontrollably laughing our heads off, linking arms and singing "praises" like sailors on the docks.

i had feelings. intense feelings of warmth and happiness, and favour. it lasted for weeks. i began to play CCM and dance around my house, hopping and skipping and generally savouring the daily visions and messages i "felt" in my spirit. there were so many i felt compelled to start writing them down. oh the ideas i was given!

~

then one day i happened to notice my Bible. on a shelf. covered with dust. and an alarm bell rang in my spirit.

i went to my Bible and actually felt FEAR. and a confusing mix of messages telling me i didn't need to bother with that book anymore: i had "arrived", and my stack of notes about the direct revelations i was receiving should be proof. after all, i had been hearing about how stupid and dead the church was for not arriving as i had.

the more i began to question the whole matter, as i walked to town, i was LITERALLY lifted nearly off the ground so that my body weight was halved. and i walked as though carried by angels. CCM played in my head. this was evidence that what i EXPERIENCED was more important than anything else.
so i went with the experiences a little longer.

~

then one night i woke up and a different "voice" way deep inside said

PRAYER AND FASTING.

that's it.
but i recognized that "voice"(though i had never "heard" it before, haven't since).

~

i knelt at my beside and began to pray.

when i stopped praying, the sun had gone down, my knees were raw from the carpet, and i was COMPLETELY changed. i do not know what the prayers were, really. but they went for hours.
it's without question The Holy Spirit was interceding for me, and i was being filled with Him, and empowered by Him for what was ahead....i didn't know what that was yet.

now i had new imperitives in my spirit. these all were related to more prayer, and study.

the fasting part i had no clue what that was about. but i discovered over the 3 1/2 weeks.

within that time i had been through most of the Bible again with ease and total clarity. we (the Holy Spirit and i) were looking for some things in particular.

i had followed (or more precisely engaged with) an easy leading which took me daily to the Library and the internet, as well as the Bible, and i simply relaxed, followed the progression of the studies. and for the first time in my life when i slept (about 3 hours per night), it was deep, sweet, and restorative.

then we (The Spirit and I) prayed, and prayed, and prayed again. i still don't know what He prayed on my behalf, nor what He organized in my mind. but He did.

i ate a tiny meal (a pice of fruit and water, sometimes a little meat or nuts) at mid-day, and slept perhaps 30 minutes. then started the entire process again.

~

after more than 3 weeks, and 30 pounds lighter, i had jetted ahead in my Bible studies and doctrines, i had learned about charismaticism and what it is, and had been cleansed of the thing that had attached itself to me at that church service a few months prior, that thing that knew just how to make me feel, and all the visions and revelations: and its ASTONISHING ABILITY to make me forget about my Bible, in fact, it made me FEAR IT.

and that's my story.

i ain't looked back.

zone.
 
Last edited:
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#17
"Reformed" "continuationists" and Gutless Gracers



by Dan Phillips at: PYROMANIACS

As I was mulling various things over, I hit upon a connection between two seldom-associated doctrinal groups. Perhaps in time this connection I'm making, existing at present only in my head, will prove prescient. I hope not.

On the one hand, we have "Gutless Gracers." This is a term I've used here, denoting a mindset I Biblically deal with at some length in Chapter Ten of... you know, that book. Advocates would call themselves "grace" believers; critics call them "non-Lordship" teachers, I call them "gutless gracers."

As presented by themselves, the position is that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. So far, so great. However, it is when they go on to define saving faith in such a way as to exclude repentance and submission to Christ's Lordship that these folks run into grave error. To them, such elements involve "works-salvation," and are to be strictly rejected.

The practical result — to put it in terms they would themselves seldom own — is that a man can continue to live like Hell and still go to Heaven. As long as he voices the opinion that Jesus is the Son of God, or assents to the proposition that Jesus died to save him from sin('s penalty), he's okay with God.

Because you see the "reformed" "continuationist" does the exact same thing, in order to prop up his theory.





Friend, (Friends): Recommended reading on Calvinism, from an Eastern Orthodox perspective.
Amazon.com Alexander Renault. Reconsidering Tulip (TULIP). 10.00 lulu.com Dec. 24, 2010 ISBN -10 05579949890
"A biblical, philosophical and historical response to the Reformed doctrines of predestination. This book is an Eastern Orthodox assessment of TULIP, bringing to the table 1,500 years of theology and thinking which is usually absent in the typical Calvinist vs. Arminian debates."
God save us. Amen. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington

 
C

Consumed

Guest
#18
hi DF
i'm not attacking anything with this thread.
i'm posting to encourage my brothers and sisters out there.

here's a short story about my ASKING GOD ABOUT THESE THINGS:

i attended a church that was founded by folks from "The Toronto Blessing".
after much drumming and calling for FIRE FIRE FIRE, dancing and flag waving, there was much action going on (falling down and so on).

they layed hands on me and imparted a spirit that caused me to stand frozen in place for an unspecified amount of time (Fatima comes to mind) where i saw flashing lights and streams of gold and silver, with a facelss "man", robed, stepping out from the bright lights, holding out a hand to me.

at the time i believed, naturally enough it was Jesus.

later we staggered around feeling drunk, uncontrollably laughing our heads off, linking arms and singing "praises" like sailors on the docks.

i had feelings. intense feelings of warmth and happiness, and favour. it lasted for weeks. i began to play CCM and dance around my house, hopping and skipping and generally savouring the daily visions and messages i "felt" in my spirit. there were so many i felt compelled to start writing them down. oh the ideas i was given!

~

then one day i happened to notice my Bible. on a shelf. covered with dust. and an alarm bell rang in my spirit.

i went to my Bible and actually felt FEAR. and a confusing mix of messages telling me i didn't need to bother with that book anymore: i had "arrived", and my stack of notes about the direct revelations i was receiving should be proof. after all, i had been hearing about how stupid and dead the church was for not arriving as i had.

the more i began to question the whole matter, as i walked to town, i was LITERALLY lifted nearly off the ground so that my body weight was halved. and i walked as though carried by angels. CCM played in my head. this was evidence that what i EXPERIENCED was more important than anything else.
so i went with the experiences a little longer.

~

then one night i woke up and a different "voice" way deep inside said

PRAYER AND FASTING.

that's it.
but i recognized that "voice"(though i had never "heard" it before, haven't since).

~

i knelt at my beside and began to pray.

when i stopped praying, the sun had gone down, my knees were raw from the carpet, and i was COMPLETELY changed. i do not know what the prayers were, really. but they went for hours.
it's without question The Holy Spirit was interceding for me, and i was being filled with Him, and empowered by Him for what was ahead....i didn't know what that was yet.

now i had new imperitives in my spirit. these all were related to more prayer, and study.

the fasting part i had no clue what that was about. but i discovered over the 3 1/2 weeks.

within that time i had been through most of the Bible again with ease and total clarity. we (the Holy Spirit and i) were looking for some things in particular.

i had followed (or more precisely engaged with) an easy leading which took me daily to the Library and the internet, as well as the Bible, and i simply relaxed, followed the progression of the studies. and for the first time in my life when i slept (about 3 hours per night), it was deep, sweet, and restorative.

then we (The Spirit and I) prayed, and prayed, and prayed again. i still don't know what He prayed on my behalf, nor what He organized in my mind. but He did.

i ate a tiny meal (a pice of fruit and water, sometimes a little meat or nuts) at mid-day, and slept perhaps 30 minutes. then started the entire process again.

~

after more than 3 weeks, and 30 pounds lighter, i had jetted ahead in my Bible studies and doctrines, i had learned about charismaticism and what it is, and had been cleansed of the thing that had attached itself to me at that church service a few months prior, that thing that knew just how to make me feel, and all the visions and revelations: and its ASTONISHING ABILITY to make me forget about my Bible, in fact, it made me FEAR IT.

and that's my story.

i ain't looked back.

zone.
Awesome testimony zone.

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#19
So, you dont see someone claiming to be AGAINST false doctrine, and then going and propagating false Doctrine to be wrong? I dont post to insult, or hurt, or hate, i post IN love, very calmly the absolute truth.

Cessationism is FALSE. plain and simply. to deny the fact that it is, is denying scripture. SHE knows fasle doctrine, which is why im shocked and appauled at her not only stance on cessationism, but sheer assualt on anything that isnt. When i met Zone she was on the fence about it. and even admitted to me that The perfect beign the bible was silly(unless that was a lie) and then she became further and further deceived by cessationism. Its a DANGEROUS doctrine, on the same level as Benny hinn, and all those fake sorceror people. YOU may be one Consumed i dotn remeber, but YOU dotn go around attacking it. what she is deceived into doing is HARMING the body not edifying it, not brigign it closer. She feels she has a job to do...well then she needs to PRAY way more then anyone, if she feels its HER duty to expose ALL EVIL, and it rest soly on her to be the wolf slayer, then she better Pray liek ther is NO tomorrow, becasue if SHE is proagating a flase doctrine, in claim that it is AGAISNT God...then she is a hypocrite, deceived, and getting dimmer. I dotn really care about how someone veiws me. I care about peoples souls, and there spiritual wellbeing, And honestly i REALLY think people who are cessationists need to PRAY HARD untill GOD tells them theat they are correct, and to STOP using the carnal mind, which is GODS ENEMY and START seeking HIS mind toguide.

I love YOU, adn I Love Zone. But all this needs to stop. EXPOSE fasle prophets, please DO! but do NOT loath prophesy, not for my sake but for yours, adn the babies in Chrsit who are allready struglling, and confused. they dont need more.

So please continue. Expose, but dont viciously attack. You can have your veiws, if you dont want to change them thats between GOD and You. But STOP tossing around a false doctrine. its flase. bad. evil. Rebelion. Scripture twisitng. Changing the WORD. Taking AWAY from the WORD, and adding to. i know your heart isnt bent on doign that Zone, so PLEASE bring this before God in prayer. I love you VERY much. I wouldnt say a thign if i didnt. And i love all you guys to reading this. But again Cessationism is poison.
enjoy your choices and spirituality DF.
we all have our own roads to walk.
i'm a little surprised that you are publicizing personal discussions we have had. but that's okay.
i'm not taking offense, and not going to argue with people anymore.
that part i get, here on an open forum where every denomination and then some expects to come together in unity regardless of sound doctrine.

so i get it now. that won't ever, and should never happen....the unity part.

but you do know me somewhat, DF. i won't be intimidated or ordered around or told what is and what is not my duty as a Christian, or watchman or student. and i'll leave you to your calling as well. don't say such things to me and then you say love me and do it out of Christian love. at least i don't pretend to do that.

we disagree. and i reckon it'll remain that way.

i am a cessationist. it's just sad that folks don't know what means.
zone.
 
Last edited:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#20
Friend, (Friends): Recommended reading on Calvinism, from an Eastern Orthodox perspective.
Amazon.com Alexander Renault. Reconsidering Tulip (TULIP). 10.00 lulu.com Dec. 24, 2010 ISBN -10 05579949890
"A biblical, philosophical and historical response to the Reformed doctrines of predestination. This book is an Eastern Orthodox assessment of TULIP, bringing to the table 1,500 years of theology and thinking which is usually absent in the typical Calvinist vs. Arminian debates."
God save us. Amen. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington
you're funny scotty:D
how are you?