is the rapture before great tribulation????

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E

Eternity

Guest
#1
i believe most of christian believe in that the rapture its before the Great tribulation can someone explain it with the scriptures why ...not just a believe that the rapture is going to be before the Great Tribulation explaint it with the bibble.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#2
Dear eternity, Most Christians do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. 3 of the biggest groups of Christians are the Roman Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, and the Anglicans. And the mainline Protestants all do not believe in a pre tribulation rapture. So the Orthodox, the Catholics, and a great many Protestants of a non-fundamentalist, magisterial Reformation sort, do not believe in pretribulationism.
Why can't there be a pre-tribulation rapture? Matthew 24:29-31 and John 17:15: "I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil one."
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


i believe most of christian believe in that the rapture its before the Great tribulation can someone explain it with the scriptures why ...not just a believe that the rapture is going to be before the Great Tribulation explaint it with the bibble.
 
D

DaivdM

Guest
#3
i believe most of christian believe in that the rapture its before the Great tribulation can someone explain it with the scriptures why ...not just a believe that the rapture is going to be before the Great Tribulation explaint it with the bibble.
Hey, Is hard to believe when people mistake the verses of the bibles..
Here read my post that I made yesterday

People will try to say that no, because the people in the old testament when throught tribulation... SO what?? That doesn't proof a thing.. Did every christian in the world when through tribulation?
No.. Some did, but not all....
That doesn't proof a thing..

But read my post..

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/30153-matthew-24-rapture-church.html
 
S

Slepsog4

Guest
#4
Matthew 24 is about the Fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 by the Romans.

Notice references to: Judea, Sabbath, etc.
 
J

Jacob12

Guest
#5
Matthew 24 is about the Fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 by the Romans.

Notice references to: Judea, Sabbath, etc.
Matthew 24:7...earthquakes in diverse places...vs11 many false prophets shall arise and deceive many...vs 14 and this gospel shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations...vs 21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beggining of the world to this time, no nor ever will be.....vs 24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and show great signs and wonders; insomuch that if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
How can you be deceived into thinking this talks about 70 .A.D when none of this or the passages following it happened then. Jesus even tells you he would return in the clouds with great power and glory after these events. Please read the bible and stop accepting society's ideas about it.
 
R

rabbi

Guest
#6
i believe most of christian believe in that the rapture its before the Great tribulation can someone explain it with the scriptures why ...not just a believe that the rapture is going to be before the Great Tribulation explaint it with the bibble.


yes it will
 

jandian

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2011
772
11
18
#7
This is an interesting topic; I really dont know the ans to it.....What I do know is whether its before or after; I 'm going with Jesus..:)
But I'm Looking forward to hearing from all those who believe they know the answer to that
 
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
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#8
i believe most of christian believe in that the rapture its before the Great tribulation can someone explain it with the scriptures why ...not just a believe that the rapture is going to be before the Great Tribulation explaint it with the bibble.
Even though the pretrib rapture is commonally believed in the Arerican Church culture. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus will return and rapture the living saints at the post trib 2nd coming right after the resurrection of the just
 
Feb 16, 2011
2,957
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#9
Verses for hope of Pre-trib coming of the Lord in the air.

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#10
i believe most of christian believe in that the rapture its before the Great tribulation can someone explain it with the scriptures why ...not just a believe that the rapture is going to be before the Great Tribulation explaint it with the bibble.

Dear Eternity, Most Christians do not believe the "rapture" is before the great tribulation.
Most people who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture are not Lutheran, Presbyterian/Reformed, Methodist, or Episcopalian/Anglican, but are members of the other millions of Protestant sects.
Most Christians are included below, and perhaps none of these believe in a pre tribulation rapture.

Catholic 1.5 billion worldwide
Orthodox 225 million worldwide
Lutheran 66 million worldwide
Reformed/Presbyterian 2.5 million in the PCUSA
Methodist/Wesleyan 2.1 million in the UMC
Anglican/Episcopalian 70 million worldwide

These groups make up the majority of Christians, and of these believers, perhaps not even 1 percent of all of these believe in a pre tribulation rapture. I am not sure what the statistics for this are, but the official statements of faith of the Lutherans, Reformed, Presbyterian, Methodist, Wesleyan, Anglican, and Episcopalian do not include a formal statement endorsing a pre tribulation rapture of the Christian Church.
God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#11
Verses for hope of Pre-trib coming of the Lord in the air.

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Friends! No! Not at all! John 17:15: "I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil one."
In Erie PA Scott Harrington


 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#12
i believe most of christian believe in that the rapture its before the Great tribulation can someone explain it with the scriptures why ...not just a believe that the rapture is going to be before the Great Tribulation explaint it with the bibble.


"Seventy weeks are shortened upon thy people and upon they holy city, that transgression may be finished, and sin may have an end, and iniquity may be abolished, and everlasting justice may be brought, and vision and prophecy may be fulfilled, and the Saint of saints may be anointed. Know thou therefore, and take notice: that from the going forth of the word to build up Jerusalem again [457 BC] unto Christ the prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks [69 weeks]; and the street shall be built again, and the walls in straitness of times. And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain; [30 AD] and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. [Jews and Romans]. And a people with their leader that shall come [the Romans] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary [70 AD]; and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation."
DANIEL 9:24-26 CONFRATERNITY VERSION


PS The bibble sounds like more tribble to unner-stand than "the Bible!" LOL!

God bless you. In Erie Scott Harrington
 
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#13
Verses for hope of Pre-trib coming of the Lord in the air.

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
At first glance this seems to be a compelling argument for the pretrib rapture, until you take time to read what it is actually saying. Pray always that you may be able to ''ESCAPE'' the things that shall come to pass. This actually disproves the pretrib rapture. You can not escape anything you have not first taken part in. You can not escape a abusive relationship if you were never in a abusive relationship. You can not escape prison without first being incarcerated and so on and so one. We will not be able to escape the things happening during the tribulation if we are never going to be in the tribulation. Another problem with their interpretation of this verse is that they ignore the rest the Luke 21. Verses 8-35 make it obvious that we will be here during the tribulation. Going as far as to say in verse 22-28 that not until the worse of the tribulation has begun, should we begin to lift our heads and look for our redemption.
Luke 21:22-28
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great stress upon the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall upon the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentile be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and waves roaring;
26 Mens hearts falling them for fear, and for looking after those thins that are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Once the tribulation has started, and these things begin to happen, that is when we will really know that Jesus' return is close, that are redemption is drawing near. We will indeed escape evil, but not by missing the tribulation, nor by being snatch into Heaven, but by divine protection here on earth.

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
This is by far the best scripture the pretrib movement has, yet it does not even come close to inferring that we will be snatched into Heaven before the tribulation to elude God's wrath upon the world. Anyone that believes this some how proves the pretrib rapture can be easily corrected. Remember verse 10 says that because we have kept his word he will keep us from the hour of temptation but verse 11 tells us to hold fast until his return.
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold fast to what thou hast, that no man take your crown.

We know that He returns after the tribulation because in Revelation 2:16 Jesus tells the church to repent or else He will come and fight against them with the sword from His mouth. We also see in Revelation chapter 19 that this event is after the tribulation.
Revelation 19:11-15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon it was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doest judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dripped with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. ( by the way the armies clothed in white are the dead in Christ returning from heaven to receive immortal bodies and or the angels, not the raptured saints)
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp two edge sword, that he should smite the nations: and he should rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

All are in agreement that this happens after the tribulation, and again in Revelation 2:16 He says He is coming quickly to fight against the unrepentant with the sword from his mouth.
Revelation 2:16 Repent: or else I will come unto thee quickly and fight against thee with the sword of my mouth.
So if the coming quickly in Revelation 2:16 is post tribulational, then the coming quickly in Revelation 3:11 is post tribulational as well.

So if we are to believe that Revelation 3:10 is saying that Jesus is going to rapture us out of the world before the tribulation. Then we must accept the in one verse he tells us that we will be rapture before the tribulation '' Rev 3:10'', and then in the very next verse he tell us to hold to our faith until after the tribulation is over '' Rev 3:11''. How could this be, there must be something wrong, so what is it? Jesus would not contradict Himself.

John 17:15 tells us that Jesus actually prays to the Father, that He would not remove us from the world, but that he would keep us from evil.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but thou should keep them from the evil.
We know that Jesus was not just praying for the disciples only, but for all believers because of what it says in John 17:20.
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also that shall believe on me through their word;

So now we know not only can God keep us from evil, and keep us from the hour of temptation, without removing us from the world, but that it would actually be against the prayer of Jesus Himself if we were raptured out of the world. We are kept from the hour of temptation through divine protection not the pretrib rapture. This does not mean that we will be immune to the wrath of man, but just as the apostles, that are faith would not fail.
 
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
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#14
At first glance this seems to be a compelling argument for the pretrib rapture, until you take time to read what it is actually saying. Pray always that you may be able to ''ESCAPE'' the things that shall come to pass. This actually disproves the pretrib rapture. You can not escape anything you have not first taken part in. You can not escape a abusive relationship if you were never in a abusive relationship. You can not escape prison without first being incarcerated and so on and so one. We will not be able to escape the things happening during the tribulation if we are never going to be in the tribulation. Another problem with their interpretation of this verse is that they ignore the rest the Luke 21. Verses 8-35 make it obvious that we will be here during the tribulation. Going as far as to say in verse 22-28 that not until the worse of the tribulation has begun, should we begin to lift our heads and look for our redemption.
Luke 21:22-28
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great stress upon the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall upon the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentile be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and waves roaring;
26 Mens hearts falling them for fear, and for looking after those thins that are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Once the tribulation has started, and these things begin to happen, that is when we will really know that Jesus' return is close, that are redemption is drawing near. We will indeed escape evil, but not by missing the tribulation, nor by being snatch into Heaven, but by divine protection here on earth.
Jesus was talking to Israel, not Christians. Christianity was not even available yet. It started after Jesus spoke those words, and it will end at the rapture before those prophesies come to pass.

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
This is by far the best scripture the pretrib movement has, yet it does not even come close to inferring that we will be snatched into Heaven before the tribulation to elude God's wrath upon the world. Anyone that believes this some how proves the pretrib rapture can be easily corrected. Remember verse 10 says that because we have kept his word he will keep us from the hour of temptation but verse 11 tells us to hold fast until his return.
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold fast to what thou hast, that no man take your crown.

We know that He returns after the tribulation because in Revelation 2:16 Jesus tells the church to repent or else He will come and fight against them with the sword from His mouth. We also see in Revelation chapter 19 that this event is after the tribulation.
Revelation 19:11-15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon it was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doest judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dripped with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. ( by the way the armies clothed in white are the dead in Christ returning from heaven to receive immortal bodies and or the angels, not the raptured saints)
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp two edge sword, that he should smite the nations: and he should rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

All are in agreement that this happens after the tribulation, and again in Revelation 2:16 He says He is coming quickly to fight against the unrepentant with the sword from his mouth.
Revelation 2:16 Repent: or else I will come unto thee quickly and fight against thee with the sword of my mouth.
So if the coming quickly in Revelation 2:16 is post tribulational, then the coming quickly in Revelation 3:11 is post tribulational as well.

So if we are to believe that Revelation 3:10 is saying that Jesus is going to rapture us out of the world before the tribulation. Then we must accept the in one verse he tells us that we will be rapture before the tribulation '' Rev 3:10'', and then in the very next verse he tell us to hold to our faith until after the tribulation is over '' Rev 3:11''. How could this be, there must be something wrong, so what is it? Jesus would not contradict Himself.

John 17:15 tells us that Jesus actually prays to the Father, that He would not remove us from the world, but that he would keep us from evil.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but thou should keep them from the evil.
We know that Jesus was not just praying for the disciples only, but for all believers because of what it says in John 17:20.
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also that shall believe on me through their word;

So now we know not only can God keep us from evil, and keep us from the hour of temptation, without removing us from the world, but that it would actually be against the prayer of Jesus Himself if we were raptured out of the world. We are kept from the hour of temptation through divine protection not the pretrib rapture. This does not mean that we will be immune to the wrath of man, but just as the apostles, that are faith would not fail.
Rev 3:10 does not support a pretrib rapture because it is not written to Christians. Revelation is written to people who will be left after the rapture. We will be returning with him in Rev 19:14. John also was written concerning the time before Christianity began (pentecost).

We need to pay attention to what is being written to whom. The church epistles, Romans through Thessalonians, are written to Christians. 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 are talking about the rapture of Christians, which will precede the tribulation.
 
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
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#15
Rev 3:10 does not support a pretrib rapture because it is not written to Christians. Revelation is written to people who will be left after the rapture. We will be returning with him in Rev 19:14. John also was written concerning the time before Christianity began (pentecost).
Revelation was written after pentecost and to the church. If you do not know at least this much, you probably should notbe in this convo

We need to pay attention to what is being written to whom.
You need to forget what your indoctrination has convinced you of and start believe God.
 
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
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#16
Revelation was written after pentecost
True

and to the church.
If you mean the Christian Church, False.

If you do not know at least this much, you probably should notbe in this convo
And you should not be trying to teach something which you know so little about.

You need to forget what your indoctrination has convinced you of and start believe God.
I love it....:rolleyes:
 
D

DaivdM

Guest
#17
Even though the pretrib rapture is commonally believed in the Arerican Church culture. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus will return and rapture the living saints at the post trib 2nd coming right after the resurrection of the just

that is where I want to ask a question
you said the rapture happen when the ressurection happen..
ok tell me... Will you go throught thr wrath of bowls then?
because clearly the resurretion happen after the wrath of bowls
 
D

DaivdM

Guest
#18
Friends! No! Not at all! John 17:15: "I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil one."
In Erie PA Scott Harrington
Deciples....
 
D

DaivdM

Guest
#19
At first glance this seems to be a compelling argument for the pretrib rapture, until you take time to read what it is actually saying. Pray always that you may be able to ''ESCAPE'' the things that shall come to pass. This actually disproves the pretrib rapture. You can not escape anything you have not first taken part in. You can not escape a abusive relationship if you were never in a abusive relationship. You can not escape prison without first being incarcerated and so on and so one. We will not be able to escape the things happening during the tribulation if we are never going to be in the tribulation. Another problem with their interpretation of this verse is that they ignore the rest the Luke 21. Verses 8-35 make it obvious that we will be here during the tribulation. Going as far as to say in verse 22-28 that not until the worse of the tribulation has begun, should we begin to lift our heads and look for our redemption.
Luke 21:22-28
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great stress upon the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall upon the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentile be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and waves roaring;
26 Mens hearts falling them for fear, and for looking after those thins that are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Once the tribulation has started, and these things begin to happen, that is when we will really know that Jesus' return is close, that are redemption is drawing near. We will indeed escape evil, but not by missing the tribulation, nor by being snatch into Heaven, but by divine protection here on earth.

This is by far the best scripture the pretrib movement has, yet it does not even come close to inferring that we will be snatched into Heaven before the tribulation to elude God's wrath upon the world. Anyone that believes this some how proves the pretrib rapture can be easily corrected. Remember verse 10 says that because we have kept his word he will keep us from the hour of temptation but verse 11 tells us to hold fast until his return.
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold fast to what thou hast, that no man take your crown.
We know that He returns after the tribulation because in Revelation 2:16 Jesus tells the church to repent or else He will come and fight against them with the sword from His mouth. We also see in Revelation chapter 19 that this event is after the tribulation.
Revelation 19:11-15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon it was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doest judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dripped with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. ( by the way the armies clothed in white are the dead in Christ returning from heaven to receive immortal bodies and or the angels, not the raptured saints)
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp two edge sword, that he should smite the nations: and he should rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
All are in agreement that this happens after the tribulation, and again in Revelation 2:16 He says He is coming quickly to fight against the unrepentant with the sword from his mouth.
Revelation 2:16 Repent: or else I will come unto thee quickly and fight against thee with the sword of my mouth.
So if the coming quickly in Revelation 2:16 is post tribulational, then the coming quickly in Revelation 3:11 is post tribulational as well.

So if we are to believe that Revelation 3:10 is saying that Jesus is going to rapture us out of the world before the tribulation. Then we must accept the in one verse he tells us that we will be rapture before the tribulation '' Rev 3:10'', and then in the very next verse he tell us to hold to our faith until after the tribulation is over '' Rev 3:11''. How could this be, there must be something wrong, so what is it? Jesus would not contradict Himself.

John 17:15 tells us that Jesus actually prays to the Father, that He would not remove us from the world, but that he would keep us from evil.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but thou should keep them from the evil.
We know that Jesus was not just praying for the disciples only, but for all believers because of what it says in John 17:20.
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also that shall believe on me through their word;
So now we know not only can God keep us from evil, and keep us from the hour of temptation, without removing us from the world, but that it would actually be against the prayer of Jesus Himself if we were raptured out of the world. We are kept from the hour of temptation through divine protection not the pretrib rapture. This does not mean that we will be immune to the wrath of man, but just as the apostles, that are faith would not fail.

you sure know how to twist scribtures.. Good job.. maybe the post-triber will believe you
 
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#20
that is where I want to ask a question
you said the rapture happen when the ressurection happen..
ok tell me... Will you go throught thr wrath of bowls then?
because clearly the resurretion happen after the wrath of bowls
I agree. We are not raptured until Jesus post trib 2nd coming. However we are immune to any judgments God pours out onto the world. Although we will not be immune to mans or Satan's wrath we never have been.

You are not suggesting the rapture is before the resurrection are you?