Is Jesus Christ a God ?

[journey41]

[quote]

Originally Posted by timothy10

God the I Am and I Am He -

And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. ( Exodus 3:13-14)

Yes, this is God speaking. The Word of God.

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. ( Isaiah 43:10-11 )

If there were no God, there would be no Son. So my question is - who was it that glorified his Son and gave him all authority over us and all the angels? Did the son just appear and have power?, did man give this to him? or was power given unto him from the Father?

I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. ( Isaiah 43:25 )

Doesn't this tell us that it's all in Gods hands?
[quote]
Jesus the I Am and I Am He -

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins
[/QUOTE]So, who was he? Wasn't he the one that was prophesied about 2 thousand years before he came? Wasn't he the one that John the baptist paved the way saying he was the Christ, the Son of God?

John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

And who was speaking in the beginning? The Word.

have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

He that sent me? ......And Jesus speaks the things which he HEARD of HIM. Who is Him?
If you say you heard someone say something, it usually does not mean you heard it from yourself.

They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

There you have it. Jesus is speaking of his Father. The Word proceeds out of the Father.
AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
( John 8:24-28 )

Who was he again? The one that was prophesied about. The one that God was going to send. The one that does & says everything his Father tells him to do. The one that was purposed to be the sacrificial lamb. This does not suggest that Jesus is saying he is God the Father.

They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Yes, now Jesus is the one they are looking for to arrest - I am he. He tells them straight. He knows his time is come. He is not saying he is God the Father.

Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
( John 18:5-8 )

Again, I am He. The one you are looking for. Not suggesting he is God the Father.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. ( Revelation 1:17-18 )

Yes, I am the first and the last. God spoke these words. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. The WORD made flesh that is, not GOD made flesh. So if the Word was with God in the beginning, then doesn't it make sense also that the WORD will be with God at the end.

Jesus is God

[/QUOTE] Be careful, you are denying God's Son because you are saying they are the same. God crowned his Son with glory and we have to acknowledge that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, just as God, Christ himself, the prophets and the appostles declared and bare witness.

Many are being decieved and dont even realise it.

Satan has introduced one of the biggest lies ever into the christian community and many are caught hook, line and sinker.

May God fill you with all spiritual faith, wisdom, knowledge & understanding.

Thankyou for talking with me.

[journey41]

[quote]

Originally Posted by zackabba

Was the Father speaking through Christ when Christ was praying to the Father?

[/QUOTE]When Jesus is praying to his Father, of course thats Jesus speaking, but when he is revealing to man, it is the Father speaking through him.

Look at all those verses where Jesus is telling us over and over, It's not my words, the Father is telling me what to say.... So what does that mean...Hello, the Father is speaking. That is a pretty straight forward statement.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

[quote=journey41;536441]

[/QUOTE]When Jesus is praying to his Father, of course thats Jesus speaking, but when he is revealing to man, it is the Father speaking through him.

Look at all those verses where Jesus is telling us over and over, It's not my words, the Father is telling me what to say.... So what does that mean...Hello, the Father is speaking. That is a pretty straight forward statement.

Hi, Journey...

You and the crew are so very close, but there is yet one step of further understanding. The One and Only true God spoke forth the Divine substance of Himself in His Word to be within the Son.

Yes, Jesus is the Logos and NOT a separate God-"person" of three. But that Logos contained the Divine substance content of Himself and was within Jesus. The Son is the earthly personification of God, and is Divine by BOTH substance AND identity. Not just one or the other.

[zackabba]

[quote=journey41;536441]

[/QUOTE]When Jesus is praying to his Father, of course thats Jesus speaking, but when he is revealing to man, it is the Father speaking through him.

Look at all those verses where Jesus is telling us over and over, It's not my words, the Father is telling me what to say.... So what does that mean...Hello, the Father is speaking. That is a pretty straight forward statement.

Journey - There are times I believe Jesus was speaking by the Father's will.

For instance, in one place He says "Ask me anything in my name, and I will do it."
In another part, He says "Whatever you ask the Father in my name He will give to you."

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Originally Posted by Strangelove

Well....am I allowed to use the word 'triune' without being called unscriptural?

I have every right to reclaim that word from whatever creedal dogmas have been imposed on it by institutions.

For that matter, the same can be said of the word trinity and trinitarian.

I am a simple trinitarian. Not according to any misuse of the word by institutions but according to the simple meaning of the word.

Scripture describes a 3 in 1 Godhead. Thats what the trinity is. Regardless of any allusions to "persons" or "distinctions".

I am reclaiming the word trinity.

You may have mistakenly perceived that I'm being adversarial toward you. I'm not in the least.

In terms of expression, God is more 1 than 3... More "Une" than "Tri". He is much more 1 AS 3 rather than 3 IN 1.

Taking such personal stands as an individual is appropriate. I'm dealing with establishing an expressable understanding that can be universal apart from such individual expression.

The issue is two-fold in regards to expressing the Godhead:
Substance and Identity.

Trinity expressed the substance pretty well, at least recognizing F/S/HS all as Deity. The Identity of the Son and the Holy Spirit are misrepresented as separate sentient centers of consciousness, though in agreement.

The Identity of Jesus is that He is the singular person (prosopon) of God manifested in our temporal presence. The One single-person transcendent God "inserted" Himself in His creation by substance AND identity.

You may (and should) express your individual understanding however you are led. Please understand there's a bigger picture of more universal expression to consider. Language etymology can't be changed on a universal level to accommodate individual understandings.

Trinity doctrine is specific, though it has several specifically-divergent forms: Filioque/Social/Anti-Social. Changing the personal meaning for oneself doesn't alter the actual meaning. If I call a dog a cat, it's still a dog even if someone else knows I refer to all dogs as cats.

I personally think threefold and triune, etc. largely undermine the Oneness of God. God is One AS three rather than three IN one.

God as Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity is NOT triune or threefold or Trinity.

I do appreciate your "softer" approach to Godhead doctrine. From an apologist's view, I'm just saying it doesn't work beyond individualized understandings. A universal lexicon of terms and meanings is necessary for a baseline, especially when there's already been one for 17 millennia.

[Strangelove]

Originally Posted by PneumaPsucheSoma

You may have mistakenly perceived that I'm being adversarial toward you. I'm not in the least.

In terms of expression, God is more 1 than 3... More "Une" than "Tri". He is much more 1 AS 3 rather than 3 IN 1.

Taking such personal stands as an individual is appropriate. I'm dealing with establishing an expressable understanding that can be universal apart from such individual expression.

The issue is two-fold in regards to expressing the Godhead:
Substance and Identity.

Trinity expressed the substance pretty well, at least recognizing F/S/HS all as Deity. The Identity of the Son and the Holy Spirit are misrepresented as separate sentient centers of consciousness, though in agreement.

The Identity of Jesus is that He is the singular person (prosopon) of God manifested in our temporal presence. The One single-person transcendent God "inserted" Himself in His creation by substance AND identity.

You may (and should) express your individual understanding however you are led. Please understand there's a bigger picture of more universal expression to consider. Language etymology can't be changed on a universal level to accommodate individual understandings.

Trinity doctrine is specific, though it has several specifically-divergent forms: Filioque/Social/Anti-Social. Changing the personal meaning for oneself doesn't alter the actual meaning. If I call a dog a cat, it's still a dog even if someone else knows I refer to all dogs as cats.

I personally think threefold and triune, etc. largely undermine the Oneness of God. God is One AS three rather than three IN one.

God as Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity is NOT triune or threefold or Trinity.

I do appreciate your "softer" approach to Godhead doctrine. From an apologist's view, I'm just saying it doesn't work beyond individualized understandings. A universal lexicon of terms and meanings is necessary for a baseline, especially when there's already been one for 17 millennia.

Look...I'm gonna cut straight to the chase here.

In the future, under the NOAHIDE LAWS....Christians are gonna be rounded up and persecuted on all manner of charges.

Many of these charges are gonna be accusations of IDOLATRY.

These charges of idolatry are gonna be connected with words like TRINITY and TRIUNE.

Now you see that me....and I believe most true Christians use these words in their most basic sense and do not make the mistake of saying that the 3 aspects of the one God are "distinct" or "seperate" "persons" or have "separate sentient centers of consciousness".

All this stuff you are working on is gonna make it EASIER and in fact AID the pharisees and dispensationalists and other wonky xtians (who will be initiated and deceived into accepting noahide law) to CHARGE the Saints willy nilly with IDOLATRY.

I know you think this is like....your pet subject....and your on a mission to throw the word TRINITY into the trash.....

.....but Christians are perfectly justified in using the word in its simplest form to describe the nature of the Godhead.

Have a think about what this over analytical approach (to something that is really really hard to understand) is ultimately accomplishing with regards to what might happen in the future friend.

I would get a new pet if I was you. Goldfish are nice.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Originally Posted by Strangelove

Look...I'm gonna cut straight to the chase here.

In the future, under the NOAHIDE LAWS....Christians are gonna be rounded up and persecuted on all manner of charges.

Many of these charges are gonna be accusations of IDOLATRY.

These charges of idolatry are gonna be connected with words like TRINITY and TRIUNE.

Now you see that me....and I believe most true Christians use these words in their most basic sense and do not make the mistake of saying that the 3 aspects of the one God are "distinct" or "seperate" "persons" or have "separate sentient centers of consciousness".

All this stuff you are working on is gonna make it EASIER and in fact AID the pharisees and dispensationalists and other wonky xtians (who will be initiated and deceived into accepting noahide law) to CHARGE the Saints willy nilly with IDOLATRY.

I know you think this is like....your pet subject....and your on a mission to throw the word TRINITY into the trash.....

.....but Christians are perfectly justified in using the word in its simplest form to describe the nature of the Godhead.

Have a think about what this over analytical approach (to something that is really really hard to understand) is ultimately accomplishing with regards to what might happen in the future friend.

I would get a new pet if I was you. Goldfish are nice.

I'll cut to the chase myself, then...

When I was a Trinitarian, I believed in a different God. And I believed Jesus was Deity. I was lost and an idolator. Many Trinitarians ARE idolators. Not according to Noahide Laws, but in a non-salvific sense.

I certainly won't sidestep the truth of the nature of God from a spirit of fear about the Talmudic agenda. Though not Calvinist, I'm reformed enough to know the cascade of persecution events aren't going to be altered by my Spirit-led stand for such truth. Western Protestants will be gathered regardless of the syntax of their profession of faith. Sadly, there will be those who die a martyr's death without salvific faith.

Maybe your "under-analysis" is the issue. And if I wanted a fish, it would be a Clown Trigger in a marine aquarium. My "pet" is fine. I'll continue my Spirit-led expose of erroneous Godhead doctrine AND against Dispensational deceit. All for the sake of lost souls... many of whom are professing believers. It's about truth, not avoiding imminent persecution.

I'm quite sorry you don't understand the importance of this issue.

[Strangelove]

Originally Posted by PneumaPsucheSoma

I'll cut to the chase myself, then...

When I was a Trinitarian, I believed in a different God. And I believed Jesus was Deity. I was lost and an idolator. Many Trinitarians ARE idolators. Not according to Noahide Laws, but in a non-salvific sense.

Huh?

You dont believe Jesus is divine?

Is Jesus Christ God yes or no?

[zackabba]

Originally Posted by PneumaPsucheSoma

I'll cut to the chase myself, then...

When I was a Trinitarian, I believed in a different God. And I believed Jesus was Deity. I was lost and an idolator. Many Trinitarians ARE idolators. Not according to Noahide Laws, but in a non-salvific sense.

I certainly won't sidestep the truth of the nature of God from a spirit of fear about the Talmudic agenda. Though not Calvinist, I'm reformed enough to know the cascade of persecution events aren't going to be altered by my Spirit-led stand for such truth. Western Protestants will be gathered regardless of the syntax of their profession of faith. Sadly, there will be those who die a martyr's death without salvific faith.

Maybe your "under-analysis" is the issue. And if I wanted a fish, it would be a Clown Trigger in a marine aquarium. My "pet" is fine. I'll continue my Spirit-led expose of erroneous Godhead doctrine AND against Dispensational deceit. All for the sake of lost souls... many of whom are professing believers. It's about truth, not avoiding imminent persecution.

I'm quite sorry you don't understand the importance of this issue.

I'm also confused...in one post you say Jesus is God, in another you say He's not...

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Originally Posted by Strangelove

Huh?

You dont believe Jesus is divine?

Is Jesus Christ God yes or no?

Absolutely, yes. My point was that I believed Jesus was Deity and was lost. It wasn't salvific faith; only assent.

You misunderstand a lot after great effort from others at clear communication.

[zackabba]

It's funny how John says as the last thing in His first letter, "little children, do not worship idols."

Yet just a little bit before He had said Jesus was the "true God and eternal life."

(I take 1 John 5:20 to be referring to Jesus because He is referred to as the Life throughout John's letters, much more than the Father. Not that the Father doesn't have life in Himself.)

[journey41]

Hi PPS.

We meet again on this very same subject!

When spreading the Word, our job is to pass on the message.

The message is Christ. Christ is our foundation.

So what sounds more clear and straight forward to the listener;

"Christ is the Son of God, and has power to forgive sins"
or

or

Is Christ that complicated?

[journey41]

[quote]

Originally Posted by zackabba

Christ had a free will. He was crowned with glory because he chose to remain faithful to his Father, even to death. He was not forced to do it, but obeyed willingly according to the Holy spirit (spirit of truth) that was put in him. Because he obeyed right from the start, that holy spirit in him grew and matured. After his ressurrection he was named the Word of God, because the fullness of the Father was in him. He conquered.

If we obey and follow Christ to the end, we will be like him too, and will recieve glory, but we will never be Christ.. He will always be Lord over us. And Christ has a Lord too, the one he honours, represents and reports to....His Father.

[zackabba]

[quote=journey41;536815]

Christ had a free will. He was crowned with glory because he chose to remain faithful to his Father, even to death. He was not forced to do it, but obeyed willingly according to the Holy spirit (spirit of truth) that was put in him. Because he obeyed right from the start, that holy spirit in him grew and matured. After his ressurrection he was named the Word of God, because the fullness of the Father was in him. He conquered.

If we obey and follow Christ to the end, we will be like him too, and will recieve glory, but we will never be Christ.. He will always be Lord over us. And Christ has a Lord too, the one he honours, represents and reports to....His Father.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. (John 6:38)

Yes, he still did have His own will, and He also had life in Himself, something God only has (Mark 1:40, 41, John 11:25, 14:6, John 5:26).

Christ indeed was crowned with glory (Philippians 2:9-11). However, you forget that He had this glory before the foundation of the world with the Father (John 17:5).

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit in Jesus grew and matured. It says that he did, but not the Holy Spirit. Just want to make this distinction clear.

Also, nowhere does it say in the Bible that after His Resurrection He was named the Word of God. He was always the word of God (John 1:1-18), and He is the eternal Word of God (Hebrews 13:8).



You are right in saying that He is and always will be Lord over us. He is also Lord over the Holy Spirit, and the Father is Lord over both of them, God over them.
All three of them are one God over us. Yes, this includes the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17).


Jesus is Lord and God over all, and blessed forever. Amen.



Grace and Love

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Originally Posted by zackabba

I'm also confused...in one post you say Jesus is God, in another you say He's not...

I haver never once said Jesus wasn't God; quite the inverse. In fact, I believe Jesus is "more" God than do Trinitarians.

Evidently, my single sentence above was misleading. I assented to the Deity of Christ, but it wasn't salvific faith.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Originally Posted by journey41

Hi PPS.

We meet again on this very same subject!

When spreading the Word, our job is to pass on the message.

The message is Christ. Christ is our foundation.

So what sounds more clear and straight forward to the listener;

"Christ is the Son of God, and has power to forgive sins"
or



Is Christ that complicated?

No. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh. Very simple.

Not 1/3 of God (Trinity). Not just God's Word as a man who wasn't Divine (your understanding).

[zackabba]

Originally Posted by PneumaPsucheSoma

I haver never once said Jesus wasn't God; quite the inverse. In fact, I believe Jesus is "more" God than do Trinitarians.

Evidently, my single sentence above was misleading. I assented to the Deity of Christ, but it wasn't salvific faith.

Oh yeah, I saw that with your answer to the other one. Thank you though; it was a little bit misleading to me.

Grace and Love

[Strangelove]

Originally Posted by PneumaPsucheSoma

Absolutely, yes. My point was that I believed Jesus was Deity and was lost. It wasn't salvific faith; only assent.

You misunderstand a lot after great effort from others at clear communication.

Maybe its your efforts at communication thats at fault seeing as me AND others are confused on your exact position.

[R3V07UTI0N]

Originally Posted by timothy10

there is one body,and one spirit,even as ye are called in one hope of your calling.
one Lord,one faith,one baptism.
one God and father of all,who is above all,and through all,and in you all.
(Ephesians 4:4-6)

Now the Lord is that spirit:and where the spirit of the Lord is ,there is liberty.
(2 Corinthians 3:17)

And all things are of God ,who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
(2 Corinthians 5:18)

Jesus saith unto him,I am the way ,the truth and the life :no man cometh unto the Father,but by me .
if ye had known me ,ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him,and have seen him.
philip saith unto him,Lord,shew us the Father,and it sufficeth us.
(John 14:6-8)

Jesus saith unto him,have I been so long time with you,and yet hast thou not known me,philip?he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;and how sayest thou then,shew us the Father?
(John 14:9)

believest thou not that I am in the Father ,and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you,I speak not of myself :but the Father that dwelleth in me,he doeth the works.
(John 14:10)

I and my Father are one.
(John 10:30)

I am one that bear witness of myself,and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
(John 8:18)

I said therefore unto you ,that ye shall die in your sins:for if ye believe not that I am he ,ye shall die in your sins.
(John 8:24)

hereby perceive we the love of God,because he laid down his life for us:and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
(1 John 3:16)

behold, a virgin shall be with his child ,and shall bring fourth a son ,and they shall call his name Emmanuel,which being interpreted is, God with us.
(Matthew 1:23)

for unto us a child is born,unto us a Son is given:and the government shall be upon his shoulders :and his name shall be called Wonderful ,Counseller,The Mighty God.The Everlasting Father,The Prince Of Peace.
(Isaiah 9:6)

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD AMEN

Amen Jesus Christ is God the Beginning and the End

[resurrection33]

I believe Jesus Christ is God in flesh. God decided to come to earth in the form of a human being, so he did so as Jesus Christ.