The early church & the spiritual gifts

[Crossfire]

The early church and spiritual gifts
A layman reads The Ante Nicene Fathers
By Dan Popp

And these signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover. — Jesus (Mark 16:17,18 NASB)

This article continues a series of my observations on the writings of the early Christian church leaders — the so-called Ante Nicene Fathers. In order to understand the purpose, scope and context of this series, please read its introduction.

Maybe you've heard the statement, "The spiritual gifts passed away with the apostles." More than once I've even heard it coming from the pulpit. But is it true? For the purposes of this article, that's a different question than "Are the spiritual gifts for today?" Whether the gifts died out later, or are bestowed in waves of revival on the church, are not questions The Ante Nicene Fathers can answer for us.

There are different lists of gifts in the New Testament, and I'm aware that some people divide the charismata into several categories. This article isn't concerned with things like that. I'd like to know simply whether the Christian church continued to experience supernatural power after the apostles fell asleep.

Here are the testimonies of some eyewitnesses.

For numberless demoniacs throughout the whole world, and in your city, many of our Christian men exorcising them in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, have healed and do heal, rendering helpless and driving the possessing devils out of the men, though they could not be cured by all the other exorcists, and those who used incantations and drugs. — Justin Martyr, Second Apology Chapter 6, sometime before AD 165

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho contains this:

Some of you are becoming disciples in the name of Christ, and quitting the path of error; who are also receiving gifts, each as he is worthy, illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another of teaching, and another of the fear of God. (Chapter 39)

Irenaeus gives a similar report between AD 182 and 188: "This they have done, as being well aware that the gift of prophecy is not conferred on men by Marcus, the magician, but that only those to whom God sends His grace from above possess the divinely-bestowed power of prophesying; and then they speak where and when God pleases...." (Against Heresies Book 1, Chapter 13.4)

In Book 2 Irenaeus presses much further this distinction between the gifted church, and the ungifted heretics:

For they can neither confer sight on the blind, nor hearing on the deaf, nor chase away all sorts of demons — none, indeed, except those that are sent into others by themselves, if they can even do so much as this. Nor can they cure the weak, or the lame, or the paralytic, or those who are distressed in any other part of the body, as has often been done in regard to bodily infirmity. Nor can they furnish effective remedies for those external accidents which may occur. And so far are they from being able to raise the dead, as the Lord raised them, and the apostles did by means of prayer, and as has been frequently done in the brotherhood on account of some necessity — the entire Church in that particular locality entreating the boon with much fasting and prayer, the spirit of the dead man has returned, and he has been bestowed in answer to the prayers of the saints — that they do not even believe this can possibly be done.... (Chapter 31.2)

The author of The Shepherd of Hermas records a scene that recalls 1 Corinthians 14, written a hundred years earlier:

When, then a man having the Divine Spirit comes into an assembly of righteous men who have faith in the Divine Spirit, and this assembly of men offers up prayer to God, then the angel of the prophetic Spirit, who is destined for him, fills the man; and the man being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaks to the multitude as the Lord wishes. Thus, then, will the Spirit of Divinity become manifest. Whatever power therefore comes from the Spirit of Divinity belongs to the Lord. (Book 2, Commandment Eleventh)

But Clement of Alexandria seems to disagree. Around AD 200 in his Exhortation to the Heathen, he writes, "He spake by the burning bush, for the men of that day needed signs and wonders." It's possible that he didn't class "spiritual gifts" with "signs and wonders," in which case his words wouldn't apply to our question. But it's remarkable that Clement is unknowingly plagiarized by Christians today who say that miracles were given only to the apostles because the people of "that day" needed supernatural proof of the gospel, while the people of our more scientific age do not. When Clement originated this line of reasoning, his time was the philosophical, advanced age that didn't need signs; from our perspective his time is the primitive, superstitious age. Maybe we aren't as sophisticated as we'd like to think.

Tertullian wrote in The Shows (De Spectaculis) around the same period, "What nobler than to tread under foot the gods of the nations — to exorcise evil spirits — to perform cures — to seek divine revealings — to live for God?" (Chapter 29)

And yet he makes a distinction between the Prophets who wrote the Old Testament, and prophecy happening in his day: "For, since His advent and personal passion, there is no longer 'vision' or 'prophet;' whence most emphatically he says that His advent 'seals vision and prophecy.'" (An Answer to the Jews Chapter 11)

Origen contributes this: "For on some is bestowed by the Spirit the word of wisdom, on others the word of knowledge, on others faith...." (De Principiis Book 2, Chapter 7.3, perhaps around AD 230)

Interestingly Origen reports a decline in signs and wonders. "Traces of them are still preserved among those who regulate their lives by the precepts of the gospel," he writes in Book 1 of Against Celsus (Chapter 2). In Book 2 of that same work: "For [the Jews] have no longer prophets nor miracles, traces of which to a considerable extent are still found among Christians, and some of them more remarkable than any that existed among the Jews; and these we ourselves have witnessed." (Chapter 8) And in Book 7 he pens: "Moreover the Holy Spirit gave signs of His presence at the beginning of Christ's ministry, and after His ascension He gave still more; but since that time these signs have diminished, although there are still traces of His presence in a few who have had their souls purified by the Gospel...." (Chapter 8)

Finally from Origen comes the detail that casting out demons is something done by ordinary laymen. He speaks of

...demons which many Christians cast out of persons possessed with them [.] And this, we may observe, they do without the use of any curious arts of magic, or incantations, but merely by prayer and simple adjurations which the plainest person can use. Because for the most part it is unlettered persons who perform this work; thus making manifest the grace which is in the word of Christ, and the despicable weakness of demons, which, in order to be overcome and driven out of the bodies and souls of men, do not require the power and wisdom of those who are mighty in argument, and most learned in matters of faith. (Against Celsus Book 7, Chapter 4)

But in the turbulent days of Cyprian (about AD 250) some martyrs-to-be left a different clue: "Lucianus wrote this, there being present of the clergy both an exorcist and a reader." (Epistle 16)

Cyprian often mentions having visions, and reports on other revelations given to his church as well.

Even though counterfeits are a concern in any age, an honest reading of The Ante Nicene Fathers reveals that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, in many expressions, operated in the church for centuries. To say, "The spiritual gifts passed away with the apostles," seems tantamount to calling many trustworthy witnesses, liars.

[Crossfire]

Does History Give Evidence of Sign Gifts Having Ceased?
By Don Stewart of Blue Letter Bible



One of the most-often voiced objections to the modern-day usage of the sign gifts is an argument from history. The cessationists argue that once the apostles died those sign gifts died with them. The following historical arguments are given against the sign gifts continuing in the church:

1. There is no evidence that the sign gifts survived the apostles. The testimony of church history is that the sign gifts ceased with the death of the apostles. The second generation of Christians did not practice these gifts.

2. Some early church leaders plainly asserted that the gifts were no longer practiced in their time. Early church leaders such as John Chrysostom, Theodore, and Augustine said the sign gifts were not being exercised in the church.

3. Those who did practice the gifts were from heretical or cultic groups. Any exercise of the sign gifts was by fringe groups. The mainline church did not exercise the sign gifts.

4. The church has never officially emphasized and substantiated the use of the gifts. They have been absent from the church throughout its history.

Response

The information we have is incomplete with regard to early Christianity, but there is plenty of evidence that the sign gifts did not die out with the apostles.

Iranaeus (A.D. 130-200) described spiritual gifts in his day:

Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands of them, and they are made whole (Philip Schaff, Iranaeus Against Heresies Ante-Nicene: 100-325, Vol. 2 of The History of the Christian Church, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973, p. 531).

In A.D. 257 Novation wrote:

This is He who places the prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, offers discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggest counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts, there are of charismata; and thus makes the Lords church everywhere, and in all, perfected, and completed (Philip Schaff, "Treatise Concerning the Trinity, XXIX," Ante-Nicene: 100-325, vol. 2 of The History of the Christian Church, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973, p. 641).

There are other early references to the existence and exercise of the gifts by Tertullian (A.D. 160-200) and Bishop Hillary who died in A.D. 367. Thus the idea that spiritual gifts immediately ceased with the apostles is untrue. The sign gifts remained and were exercised to varying degrees in the early church.

It is true that some church leaders spoke out against the exercise of the sign gifts. But one of them, St. Augustine, changed his mind later in life. He wrote:

But what I said is not to be interpreted that no miracles are believed to be performed in the name of Christ at the present time. For when I wrote that book, I myself had recently learned that a blind man had been restored to sight . . . and I known about some others, so numerous even in these times, that we cannot know about all of them or enumerate those who know.

Those who practiced the supernatural gifts during this period are unfairly singled out as extremists and heretics. Iranaeus, Justin, and Augustine, who cite their continued use in the early centuries, are respected church leaders, not cultists.

No theology of spiritual gifts developed in the church until recently. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist church, believed the gifts fell out of use because of the spiritual state of the people. He wrote:

The cause of their decline was not as has been vulgarly supposed because there was no need for them, because all the world were becoming Christians . . . the real cause was: the love of many, almost all Christians so called was waxed cold . . . this was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were no longer to be found in the Christian church; because the Christians were turned heathen again and had only a dead form left (cited by Michael Harper, As at the Beginning: The Twentieth Century Pentecostal Revival, Plainfield, New Jersey: Logos International, 1971, pp. 17,18).

Spiritual gifts were not given much attention in the church until recently. Therefore the lack of their mention should not cause us to draw any premature conclusions.

We may conclude, therefore, by saying that the testimony of church history shows that the gifts did not cease immediately with the apostles but were used by others after them.

[Crossfire]

Originally Posted by Crossfire

.

It is true that some church leaders spoke out against the exercise of the sign gifts. But one of them, St. Augustine, changed his mind later in life. He wrote:

But what I said is not to be interpreted that no miracles are believed to be performed in the name of Christ at the present time. For when I wrote that book, I myself had recently learned that a blind man had been restored to sight . . . and I known about some others, so numerous even in these times, that we cannot know about all of them or enumerate those who know.

Those who practiced the supernatural gifts during this period are unfairly singled out as extremists and heretics. Iranaeus, Justin, and Augustine, who cite their continued use in the early centuries, are respected church leaders, not cultists.

A couple of paragraphs worth noting.

[Crossfire]

Quotes about the spiritual gifts from leaders throughout church history:

Justin Martyr, c. A.D. 150

Daily some [Jews] are becoming disciples in the name of Christ and leaving the path of error. These are also receiving gifts, each as he is worthy, illumined through the name of Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another of teaching, and another of the fear of God. (Dialogue with Trypho 39)

Irenaeus, c. A.D. 185

The apostle declares, "We speak wisdom among those who are perfect" [1 Cor. 2:6]. He terms those perfect who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit speak in all languages, as he himself used to speak. Similarly, we also hear many brothers in the Church who possess prophetic gifts and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages. They bring to light the hidden things of men for the general benefit and declare the mysteries of God. These the apostle terms spiritual. They are spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, not because their flesh is stripped off and taken away and they have become purely spiritual [as the gnostics teach]. (Against Heresies V:6:1)

Martin Luther, 1520 - 1546

Elsewhere Paul draws a sharp distinction between an apostleship and lesser functions, as in I Corinthians 12:28: "And God hath set some in the church; first, apostles; secondarily, prophets; thirdly, teachers." He mentions the apostles first because they were appointed directly by God. (Commentary on Galatians)

[Crossfire]

The Cessation of the Charismata: AD 70 or Future?
Richard Jackson’s Final Affirmative
Jackson-Preston Debate Part 1

'JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, AND TODAY, AND FOREVER'(Heb.13:8)

Christian greetings & Christ's rich blessings to my friend & opponent in this discussion, to the debate moderators, & to the reading audience in general...both those have sent thoughtful emails...& you rascals who love to send rather unchristian notes. May your elders look over your shoulders some day & catch you in the act!

My third & final presentation has been condensed from the original. The original disappeared & could not be recovered. I apologize in advance for this shorter & modified version.

ARGUMENT #1 SUMMARIZED...IN THE LAST DAYS THE SPIRIT EMPOWERS ALL BELIEVERS WITH MIRACULOUS MANIFESTATIONS IN FULFILLMENT OF OLD TESTAMENT HOPE

The church of Christ which began on Pentecost was the beginning of the fulfillment of an Old Testament hope regarding the twofold work of the Spirit in the last days. This anticipated operation of God's Spirit would be that of inner transformation(regeneration/indwelling) followed closely with subsequent encounters with the Spirit(filling)necessary for equipping the believer for spiritual service & ministry. The term 'Last Days' is a biblical time period beginning with the first coming of Christ & extends throughout this present age, & is terminated only by the final Coming of Christ to this world, a cosmic event which closes out this present age. The Last Days is to be characterized by an outpouring of God's Spirit upon His people in charismatic power(Joel 2 & Acts 2). New Testament congregations were blessed with this ongoing supernatural ministry of God the Holy Spirit in miracles & spiritual gifts & received instructions as to their proper function in the local church(1 Cor. 12-14). Mr. Preston retires the Holy Ghost to heaven in the first century & insists that the age of miracles is past. This view of the Spirit's ministry is the result of bad theology. There is no essential difference in in this age of grace between the apostolic period & now. We are the same body of Christ... we have the same life & power. No divine discontinuance of miracles & spiritual gifts was anticipated during the present age. If the Spirit's working of the miraculous begins to diminish in the post apostolic period...it is man's unbelief & sin, & the churches own corruption which has made it so. But more on the post-apostolic at the proper time.
In the scriptures, the 'last Days' are the latter stage of this present age. The prevailing circumstances which identify this time period were beginning to appear even in the apostolic church...but evidently greatly increase in scope & intensity as we approach the closing period of this present age. Thus we understand that although the 'Last Days' include the entire period of time between the two advents of Christ...there is a sense in which the term 'last Days' as used by the apostles refers to the latter stage of the last Days...the closing period of this present age(1 Tim. 4, 2 Tim 3 2 Pet. 3).

The Old Covenant of law ended in this time period of the last days...at the cross(Rom 10). Mr. Preston somehow extends the Mosaic covenant beyond the cross work of Christ to 70 A.D...but all apostolic writers clearly set forth the crucifixion of Christ as THE EVENT which ended the Old Covenant of Law for the believer(Rom 10, Heb. 8 9 & 10, 2 Cor. 3). It becomes clear that the New Covenant had been established in the coming of Christ, in His death & resurrection...& that the Old Covenant of Law(& Jewish Age)ended at the cross. It is the cross of Christ which ended the old & established the new. IT IS THIS(the cross work of Jesus)which marks the greatest & most important turning point in the moral history of mankind. God's judgment upon Jerusalem in A.D. 70 certainly put an outward & visible end to Judaism & it's temple centered worship, priesthood & laws...but no christian(Jew or Gentile)were in any sense under the law until Jerusalem's destruction. The Jewish age of law had been abolished & done away in Christ...& the christian age began at Pentecost, not A.D. 70! The church had become dead to the law(a term which stands for the Old Covenant)through the body of Christ(Rom. 7). That which was abolished at the cross was the covenant of law & thus the Jewish age, & it was there & then(not 40 years later)the Mosaic Covenant of Law was set aside to make way for a 'new way'(Heb 10:20' a 'new covenant'(Heb.8:13), & a 'new ministration'(2 Cor. 3:8). It is crystal clear that the WHOLE MOSAIC SYSTEM ENDED AT THE CROSS & THAT IT WAS THIS EVENT TO WHICH THE APOSTLES POINT AS THE TRUE TURNING POINT OF THE TWO AGES(lAW/GRACE).

Watch carefully. The law was given by Moses but grace & truth came by Jesus Christ(Jn 1:17). You are(now)not under the(Age of)law, but under grace(Rom 6:14)). What does this mean but that they were then & there under the merciful dispensation of the gospel(Wesley). The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster(Gal. 3). You are also become dead to the law by the body of Christ(Rom. 6)). Now are we delivered from the law(Rom 7:6). That which was done away was glorious(2 Cor. 3:11). Jesus abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances & blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, & took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross(Col. 2)). For the law made nothing perfect but the bringing in of a better hope(Heb. 7:19). These describe the relationship of the believer to old Judaism by virtue of Christ's death. Mr. Preston would have you believe that Christ's Kingship, His priesthood, the New Covenant, His atoning sacrifice, His gospel...the establishment of the church & the christian age was not completed until A.D. 70. Away with this obsessive prophetical nonsense. The scriptures are clear that ALL OF THE ABOVE HAD BEEN COMPLETED PRIOR TO 70 A.D. THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. But lets move on.

Christianity was born, & Judaism died in the life, death, & resurrection of Jesus the Christ. Preterism's artificial extension of the Jewish age another 40 years beyond the life & death of Christ to A.D.68-70 is simply an unnecessary doctrinal innovation to fit a new & novel order of things relative to the historic doctrine of the Visible & Personal Second Coming of Christ to this world. A close examination of Preterism reveals that it fails scripture, it fails tradition, & it fails reason.

ARGUMENT #2 SUMMARIZED...SIGNS & WONDERS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE

Believers are promised supernatural & specialized abilities in connection with effectual testimony to the gospel, for the blessing & edification of the spiritual community the church, & for personal enrichment(Mk.16, 1 Cor. 12-14). New Testament congregations were fully functioning charismatic communities & are the pattern, & not the exception, for the corporate worship of God through Christ in the church of Christ today. The apostle encouraged congregations to 'desire earnestly spiritual gifts', & that 'ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, & all may be exhorted(1 Cor. 14:30-33). Miracles & spiritual gifts were never a substitute for the written word of the apostles. The apostles taught the same things they later wrote. The cannon scripture as we know it was not even anticipated by the apostles of Christ...& thus i will prejudge Don's view on this matter of miracles & spiritual gifts vs. the scriptures as a form of 'biblical idolatry'. Apostolic inscripturated revelation is distinct from the 'prophetic utterance' in the church, which was never considered equal to apostolic revelation whether oral or written. Hence said Paul...'all may prophecy' & let the others discern(1 Cor. 14:29). This qualification would not apply to the appointed apostolic company whose authority & ministry was unique to the foundational church.

Mr. Preston believes that the signs following believers & all spiritual gifts would be good until the Second Coming of Christ & to the end of the world. I agree completely. But Christ came & the end came...in the first century. You see...once bitten by this preterist bug, everything must thereafter be run through this time machine.

According to Don(in the commission according to Matthew)...when Christ promised His unchanging presence & power to the church until the 'end of the age'...His promised presence to the church was good only until A.D. 70 because EVERY TIME THE EXPRESSION 'END OF THE AGE' APPEARS IT MUST BE SPEAKING OF 70 A.D AND THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM. But here is one example where the end of the age goes beyond time itself...to the very end & consummation of this present age & dispensation of the gospel of God's grace. The biblical expressions 'age', 'this present age', 'the age which is to come 'the coming ages', & 'end of the age' have several possible applications & become a problem for Hyper-Preterism in that NOT ALL TEXTS CAN BE TORTURED TO MEAN & ONLY MEAN THE FIRST CENTURY DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM. To be 'consistent', however, the good & faithful preterist must find a first century fulfillment to ALL END TIME LANGUAGE...EVEN IF THE CONTEXT IS SUGGESTIVE OF SOMETHING FAR DISTANT. The promised presence of Christ to the church is but one example of how the 'end of the age' signifies duration viewed in relation to the events spoken of...CHRIST WITH US UNTIL THE CLOSE OF THE PRESENT AGE. But here is more.

It has been universally understood that the commission to evangelize the world applies to all believers throughout all time...not to those of that generation only...a common principle of scripture language. Thus it will do no good for Don to insist that this commission applies to the apostles only...& even if it did...wouldn't the presence of Christ continue with them beyond A.D.70? The reading audience must know that the expression 'end of the age' used here & elsewhere can at times intertwine both a near & partial fulfillment...which may serve as a symbol & foreshadowing of more distant events which give a more exhaustive application to the prophetic word. When Don views the events of A.D. 70 as fulfilling such expressions as the 'end of the age' he simply does not give the word of God it's fullest prophetic expression.

If one wants to see in the the Jewish Wars a 'coming of Christ' in judgment, & an 'end to an age'...that is perfectly acceptable provided these are seen as foreshadowing the universal divine wrath upon the whole world at the Visible & Personal Coming of Christ at the end of time(Matt. 24:30&31, 25:31). The weakness of preterism can be seen in these very things. No one saw Christ Coming in the clouds of heaven with power & great glory to judge the nations in A.D. 70. Nor can it be said that all the nations of the earth were 'represented' at that time. The time of the siege & destruction of Jerusalem was horrible, but the vision Jesus paints is much larger in scope to that of this one nations fall. Do we take the words of Christ literally Don? 'And if those days had not been cut short, NO HUMAN BEING WOULD BE SAVED'(Matt. 24:22 ESV). Well what about it? You know good & well God's judgment upon Jerusalem is manifestly not the event here referred to by the Son of God...IF IN CONTEXT HIS WORDS MEAN WHAT THEY SAY.

Now back to my argument. The living presence & power of Christ in supernatural activity(healing, prophecy, tongues)is released through the believer according to Mark Chapter 16. How long? Until the end of age. Which age? The age in which we are now living...the church age or age of grace. Marks testimony is simple. Signs follow those who believe the message of the gospel. In Christ's Name believers participate in the Holy Spirit's power for personal & church life reasons. All early christian churches were charismatic communities in which the living presence of Christ was a continuing reality. If Don is wrong is stating that the end of the world occurred in the first century...& he is...& since he admits that miracles & spiritual gifts were to remain in the church until Jesus comes...& he's right...& if Jesus did not come after the manner & way in which Don so believes(spiritual, invisible, & unknown)...then i say to him to repent for retiring the Holy Ghost to heaven in the first century...& open his heart to all that Christ has to offer him & to the church of which he is a member.

Moving on.

[Crossfire]

The Cessation of the Charismata: AD 70 or Future?
Richard Jackson’s Final Affirmative
Jackson-Preston Debate Part 2


ARGUMENT #3 SUMMARIZED...MIRACLES & GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ACCOMPANY THE PROCLAMATION OF THE GOSPEL...

The gospel is to be proclaimed with signs & wonders to all generations...not to the first generation of believers only. I asked Mr. Preston...in the Name of all that is holy...what disadvantage did that first generation have which required the living presence of Christ to be associated with the preaching of the gospel to them alone? Why does christian theology wish to confine the power & presence of the living Christ to the first century only? If there was ever a generation of skeptical disbelief due to the hardness of the human heart...it is NOW. Faith indeed comes by the hearing of the word of God(Rom. 10:17)), but Paul's preaching of the word of the gospel was not with 'persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit & power: that your faith(by the word)should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God'(1 Cor. 2:4&5). Why would God not bear witness to the testimony of Jesus Christ His Son today 'by signs & wonders & various miracles & by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to His will(Heb. 2:4 ESV). Miracles ultimately confirm Jesus & the message about Jesus...they were not granted for the purpose of confirming the apostles or their associates.

Mr Preston will say there is no need for miracles & spiritual gifts to accompany the gospel today. So he says. But in this present age of spiritual darkness...i maintain that a verbal proclamation of the facts of the gospel without attesting confirmations is insufficient to evangelize this world for Christ & His gospel.

But then again, Don's doctrine of Pantelism destroys the need for ANY GOSPEL PREACHING TODAY. Christ came in A.D. 70, raised the dead & translated the living saints, judged the world, & established the Kingdom of God in the earth, heaven is now...& we are living in the endless age of the New Creation. Evidently the only thing left for Don to do is to convince others of his preteristic fantasies! And his pen has been busy these last few years(see Amazon.com & Don K. Preston).

My third argument begs the reader to reconsider the purpose of the miraculous associated either in the ministry of Christ, or in the evangelism of the New Testament church. Countless scholars over the last century have noted that 'power' evangelism is the normative form of evangelism seen in the New Testament. They often point out that miraculous healing, signs, & wonders...& manifestations of spiritual gifts accompanied preaching on a regular basis, & was the standard form of gospel preaching practiced by our Lord, & by the apostles, & Early Church Laity(Stephen, Philip, Ananias, the Corinthians, Galatians, Jewish Christian churches, etc).

'The age of miracles' is not past. The word of God never indicated a diminishing or discontinuance of supernatural signs following those who believe. 'On the contrary, they are to be among the signs of the Last Days; & the very adversary himself is to counterfeit them, & send forth(at the last)spirits of devils working miracles, unto the Kings of the earth, so that the only defense against the false miracles will be the true. We are in the age of miracles, the age of Christ, the age which lies between two advents...& underneath the eye of a ceaseless divine presence, the age of power, the age which above all other ages of time should be intensely alive'(A.B. Simpson).

ARGUMENT #4 & #5 SUMMARIZED...MIRACLES & SPIRITUAL GIFTS ARE FOR THE CHURCH TODAY BECAUSE OF THE INCREDIBLE POWER OF PERSONAL PRAYER UNTO HIM WHO IS THE SAME YESTERDAY AND TODAY AND FOREVER...

In a public debate with a brother from Texas...in our exchange of questions, i asked him what would it take for him to change his theology on miracles & gifts of the Holy Ghost. His reply was...JUST SHOW ME ONE! Ah ha! So his belief regarding miracles in the church was based...NOT ON SCRIPTURE STATEMENTS...BUT ON THE ABSENCE OF THE MIRACULOUS IN HIS LIFE, HIS MINISTRY, & IN THE CHURCH OF WHICH HE IS A MEMBER. I fear this is the case with everyone of us who were fed good old reformation theology relative to the ministry of God the Holy Spirit in the early church vs. what is available to the contemporary church. This preacher had never seen the power of God demonstrated through prayer. Therefore what had been his experience... must be the experience of all believers the world over! But more importantly was his admission that the common church of Christ view of the purpose & function of miracle is BASED ON PERSONAL EXPERIENCE... & NOT THE SCRIPTURES. If not, why would he be willing to change his theology on the basis of an experience? Because deep down, he knew, that the scriptures do not REALLY teach a divine discontinuance of the charismata in the first century. Nope. It was merely the absence of the same in HIS experience which was the REAL reason behind his cessasionist theology.

Now then.

My argument is twofold. Part one is the Power of Prayer. What do the scriptures teach regarding christian prayer? What may we expect from prayer? What can be set in motion through prayer? Is God limited in the way in which He answers prayer? Does the idea of prayer contain within itself 'miracle potential'? What did Jesus say of the possibilities of prayer? Or the apostle Paul & others in the early church? Does our sin, unbelief, & faithlessness affect our prayers in any way? Does God work miracles in answer to prayer?

Christian prayer as presented in the scriptures releases the power of Christ into every life circumstance...& when necessary...opens the door to the miraculous.

Prayer is communion with the Living Christ. It is conscious contact with a power greater than ourselves. A higher view of prayer & it's blessed possibilities flies in the face of dead religiousity. The words of the divine Christ on prayer & faith forever seals the issue of the perpetuity of the miraculous...for He says that the prayer of faith releases the power of God into the believers experience...with the blessed assurance that with God all things all possible. And here, as is often the case in scripture, these wonderful words of Christ are spoken to all generations of believers...not to first century disciples only. This is the way of scripture so that the power & presence of Christ becomes a vital reality in the church throughout all stages of the churches existence on earth. And did not Christ tell those living at the beginning of the gospel age to go & make disciples of all nations, baptizing them & TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU? Our Lord's words on the power of prayer can be believed & received in every generation of the church, even to the end of the present age.

And so what are those ageless teachings of Christ relative to prayer's possibilities?

'...If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there', and it will move, & nothing will be impossible to you'(Matt 17:20 ESV). "And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith'(Matt. 21:22 ESV). 'All things are possible to him who believes(Mark 9:23 NASV). 'These(supernatural)signs shall follow them that believe(Mk. 16:17 KJV). 'He that believeth on me the works that i do shall he do also...(Jn. 14:12 KJV). 'And whatsoever ye shall ask in my Name, that will i do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask anything in my Name, I will do it(Jn 14:13 KJV). Mark's slightly different wording of the Savior's promise gives assurance that these revelations of Christ on the power of faith & prayer are true of 'whosoever' will believe these things!

'FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT WHOSOEVER SHALL SAY UNTO THIS MOUNTAIN, BE THOU REMOVED, & BE THOU CAST INTO THE SEA; & SHALL NOT DOUBT IN HIS HEART, BUT SHALL BELIEVE THAT THOSE THINGS WHICH HE SAITH SHALL COME TO PASS; HE SHALL HAVE WHATSOEVER HE SAITH. THEREFORE IS SAY UNTO YOU, WHAT THINGS SOEVER YE DESIRE, WHEN YE PRAY, BELIEVE THAT YE RECEIVE THEM, & YE SHALL HAVE THEM'(Mk. 11:23-24 KJV).

I am fully aware that the purpose of prayer is to advance the will of Christ in the life of the individual believer, in the church, & in the world. A careful study of prayer reveals necessary conditions required of prevailing prayer...but, when these conditions are earnestly fulfilled...& that for which we ask is divinely promised...then asking according to the will of God & receiving by the will of God becomes a daily delight! Faith begins where the will of God is known, & we can only ask for that which God has promised. And a searching of the scriptures reveals a Living Christ who is Himself the power of God to us who believe. This would include a manifestation of processes not understood by us(miracle)if the situation demanded it.

This expectant attitude to receive what God has promised is the spirit of faith in which the church should be bathed...a deep & abiding conviction of faith that 'God is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to Him be glory in the church & in Christ Jesus throughout all generations...(Eph. 3:20 ESV)...a description of the reality of the power of God in response to prayer... & for how long Paul? THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS.

Inspiration says that JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME YESTERDAY AND TODAY AND FOREVER(Heb.13:7 ESV). What does this expression mean to Don Preston? The Christ preached in most churches couldn't heal a broken heart! The Bible is not history, it's HIS STORY. It is living & vital. It works when you believe Him. If the above declaration is true, then i should expect Christ to walk right out of the pages of the Bible & become for me everything He was to those who received Him then. And this has become my experience of Christ. What He said, He says. What He did, He does. And who He was, He is. He is not the great I WAS, BUT THE GREAT I AM. And this very fact alone...JESUS CHRIST THE SAME YESTERDAY AND TODAY AND FOREVER...gives my heart all the assurance i need relative to the continuance of miracle today. The gospel knows nothing of a non-miraculous Christ. Thus i maintain that real prayer to God through Jesus Christ who is the same today as he was yesterday establishes my proposition.

Thus i maintain that real prayer to God the Father through Jesus Christ who is the same today as He was yesterday establishes my proposition. And may i add...that if the skeptics & unbelievers of today, had lived in Bible days, the age of miracles would have never begun!(Matt: 13:57&58). No offense intended(smile).

ARGUMENT #6 SUMMARIZED...MIRACLES & GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE FOR THE CHURCH TODAY BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT'S ACTIVITY IN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH DID NOT CHANGE DRAMATICALLY AFTER THE FIRST CENTURY...

My final argument puts to a permanent rest the cessasionist position regarding miracles & spiritual gifts...for if it can be shown that spiritual gifts remained active in the christian church beyond the first century, then Don's view of the matter & his anti-miracle mentality is purely a theological construct...with no real basis in scripture. Mr. Preston tows the bible behind him to justify what HIS EXPERIENCE LED HIM TO BELIEVE. The absence of miracles & spiritual gifts(charismata)in his christian experience is the true basis as to why he believes God the Holy Spirit retired from active ministry in the first century. Now prayerfully consider the following.

I will ask & answer two questions. Did the 'charismata' enumerated by the apostle in 1 Corinthians 12 remain active in the church after the first century? And if the evidence shows that they did remain active...were these signs & wonders & spiritual gifts vitally related to the proclamation of the gospel in the post apostolic church?

A church of Christ scholar has commented that 'the commonly conceived view of the breakdown of the charismata(in the first century)needs considerable emendation'. And again, 'a careful & specific study of selected texts century in particular(as being closest to the Apostolic period)and of the Anti-Nicene period in general will show that this later period was not so destitute of spiritual gifts as has been sometimes thought'(J. McRay/Harding Graduate School of Religion).

Those who lived nearest in time to the apostles felt themselves endowed with that same Spirit of God that inspired the apostles. Clement of Rome wrote "through the Holy Spirit" to the Corinthians(1 Clement 63:2). Ignatius spoke "with God's own voice" to the Philidelphians & when his genuiness was questioned he further asserted that the "Spirit was preaching"(Philadelphians 7. 1,2). The Lord "revealed" some things to Ignatius(Ephesians 20.2). Like Paul, he conceives himself to be "born out of due season", a phrase used by Paul of his apostleship(1 Cor. 15:8). And just as Paul wrote to the Corinthians so Ignatius writes to the Smyrnaeans & to Polycarp that they "come behind in no charisma(Smyrnaeans, Introduction; to Polycarp 2.2). Clearly then, for Ignatius, miracles & gifts of the Holy Spirit were still available to the church in the second century.

And what of Gregory Thaumaturgus((CA. 213-270), who became a student of the famous Alexandrian theologian, Origen, under whose tutelage he bacame a devout Christian. His ministry to his native Neo-caesarea is commented on by at least 4 of the Church Fathers, & one of Gregories spiritual descendants...Basil of Cappadocia who wrote the now famous work, 'On the Holy Spirit' argues that Gregory should be placed among the apostles & prophets as a person who walked by the same Spirit as they(Basil of Cappadocia, 'On the Holy Spirit 74) Basil reports that Gregory was so spiritually gifted that his evangelism was dramatically successful.

The life & times of Gregory Thaumaturgus(213-270 A.D.), his spiritual descendant Basil of Cappadocia(330-379 A.D.), Agustine of Hippo(354-430 A.D.), & Gregory the Great (540-604 A.D.)...clearly establish a belief in the continuing practice of the continuing reality of the charismata in Christ's church beyond the alleged discontinuance taught by my opponent in this debate.

Justin Martyr wrote(A.D. 150-165)"And now we who believe on our Lord Jesus, who was crucified under Pontius Pilot, when we exprcise all demons & evil spirits, have them subjected to us(Dialog 76)). This power over demons "followed & is still following the dispensation of His sufferings"(Dialog 31.1). "Even now the devils are overthrown by men through the Name of Jesus Christ"(Dialog). And Justin states in his discussion with Trypho, "the prophetical gifts remain with us even to the present time...(the gifts)formerly among your nations(the Jews)have been transferred to us(christians)"(Dialog 82.1). Like Ignatius & Paul, Justin remarks regarding the possession of charismata that "we are in no sense deficient"...using the identical terminology of Paul.

The writings of Tertullian(A.D. 197-225) furnish a considerable indication of the belief in continuing charismata at this time. Church historian Eusebius, when commenting on the Montanist movement which continued to advocate the gift of prophecy into the fifth century... & note that Eusebius does not deny the existence of such gifts, but wishes to correct the non-traditional manner in which they were being exercised.(Eusebius The Ecclesiastical History/Harvard University Press 1 475).

In summation of this necessarly brief argument...the belief in the continuance of the charismata beyond the apostolic age is devastating to the cessasionist. The phenomena was acknowledged to have existed among the heretic & orthodox alike. The passages dealing with the gifts, however, are not as clear & full as we could wish nor are they always convincing. However, there is suffcient information extant to warrant the conclusion that the ante-Nicene church(or at least that part of it represented by the available literature)believed that miracles & spiritual gifts were still available to them, subject as always to the will of the Spirit. Inspiration(minor), prophecy, tongues, knowledge, healing, exorcism, & more were all present in the post-apostolic church. I only wish a fuller discussion of this very topic could be done at this time. I challenge Mr. Preston to re-consider his theological bias on the ministry of the Holy Spirit to the church of Christ today ON THIS ONE ARGUMENT ALONE!

As a scholar...he must give serious attention to credible & authentic writings of the church fathers relative to the subject under discussion. DO NOT DISS THIS DON. Show this reading audience how ALL OF THESE WITNESSES ARE LIARS & FRAUDS & COUNTERFEITS. And if you can't...repent of your teaching for doctrine the commandments of men!

I have submitted in the course of this discussion six argument in defense of the proposition that miracles & spiritual gifts are for the church today. Each argument should be considered foundational only...an introductory thought as to why i believe the scriptures teach that miracles & spiritual gifts have never ceased in the Church of Christ, & why they have continued & will continue until the Return of Christ & to the end of this present gospel age.

My proposition is the result of a prayerful & careful researching of the Bible relative to the subject under discussion. No amount of human abuse of these matters has any bearing on the reality of these matters. I am not Pentecostal/Neo Pentecostal/Charismatic/or New Wave. Labels limit & diminish. I believe the scriptures, that is all. It is my christian duty to conform my life, my beliefs, & my actions to the word of God...rather than make the word of God conform my accumulated notions. May God help us all who love His word...to remain humble & teachable, daily walking with Christ our Savior with open minds & loving hearts. Heavenly Father, this we pray in the Name of your Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, amen.

CONCLUSION....

This debate with Mr. Preston has been real, & it has been fun, but at times it has not been REAL FUN(smile). I deeply appreciate Don's love for Christ & His word, his godly desire to know the truth of God as it is revealed in the sacred scripture. We have not only disagreed, but from the beginning agreed to disagree, & to pray one for another & for all who read, that throughout this discussion the One True & Living God(Father, Son & Holy Spirit)be honored & glorified as we carefully debate those issues near & dear to our hearts.

Many thanks to you Don Preston...for reawakening within me to question & research how & why i believe what i believe, & thanks to the debate administrator's for their kind & professional standards(& holding me to the same).

Christ's richest blessing upon you all!

R. Jackson

[Crossfire]

Originally Posted by Crossfire

Irenaeus gives a similar report between AD 182 and 188: "This they have done, as being well aware that the gift of prophecy is not conferred on men by Marcus, the magician, but that only those to whom God sends His grace from above possess the divinely-bestowed power of prophesying; and then they speak where and when God pleases...." (Against Heresies Book 1, Chapter 13.4)

In Book 2 Irenaeus presses much further this distinction between the gifted church, and the ungifted heretics:

For they can neither confer sight on the blind, nor hearing on the deaf, nor chase away all sorts of demons — none, indeed, except those that are sent into others by themselves, if they can even do so much as this. Nor can they cure the weak, or the lame, or the paralytic, or those who are distressed in any other part of the body, as has often been done in regard to bodily infirmity. Nor can they furnish effective remedies for those external accidents which may occur. And so far are they from being able to raise the dead, as the Lord raised them, and the apostles did by means of prayer, and as has been frequently done in the brotherhood on account of some necessity — the entire Church in that particular locality entreating the boon with much fasting and prayer, the spirit of the dead man has returned, and he has been bestowed in answer to the prayers of the saints — that they do not even believe this can possibly be done.... (Chapter 31.2)

Note that Irenaeus implies that you can distinguish the true church from the heretics because the true church operates in the gifts of the Holy Spirit while the heretics are powerless!

[Cobus]

Crossfire, what a read.. and all so straight from the Bible, I did not read ALL, but to illistrat one little point Jesus said in the Bible, I would like to share one of my experiences with you. It is a (set free) experience from something bad! Let us call it a "demon/devil/evil spirit/fleshly lust/sin/ungodly action/works of darkness, or anything we want, but let us be sure it was something that God will NEVER approve!

Ok this THING I will name "ungodly love" or "unnatural love". Or let us put it in a bit more plain language.... whoring or fornication, the Bilical term of these loose sexual activities! It was never meant that any person should be a fornicator, and I was a BIG one. How it developed to it is another matter, for the clear understanding on HOW God is active today, to save souls, we will stick to the detail on how God removed this BAD THING from me and a friend in one single moment!

Ok I was bound to Satan, with ungodly sexual activities. And I started to realize this, but the THING that held me was VERY powerful. This crave to be active in this sin was just crazy! It was like I were really helpless... I would really try to withstand the temptation to start fliting with a beautiful woman, but before i know it she was already undressed and we would be into the act. I did not know my way out, and I had no control over it. Even after I had no opportunity to go for a woman, I still lust after her in my mind.

Soon the Lord even showed me that just lusting after them was also sin. Now I had NO HOPE AT ALL!!! I said.... Lord what must I do? How can I change this? How can I stop? Help me, please!

Then about two weeks later after a church sermon a young couple that wanted to get married asked me if they could come for pre-marriage councelling to me. I knew NOTHING about this type of councelling as I did not even go on something like this. And I was going to say no but the word "YES" came out of my mouth! Already something strange happened. I would not have said Yes, becasue I am not qualified as a counsellor of any sort!

So straight after church the two young people came to our house. The young man and I went and set at my desk in the study, and he said... Cobus, I was molested when I came into puberty, and ever since I have this uncontrolable thing in me that just drives my sexual desires to the limit ALL the time. Immediately I knew why that young man was there, and why "YES" was my answer, aspecially after I heard "Cobus, if you two pray now, and call in MY help, I will set both of you free from this BONDAGE FOREVER!"

Crossfire I am a mechanical engineer I do not hear "voices" but apparently I do, becasue there was a moment I wanted to ask the oyung man if he also heard the voice. Anyway we prayed and the moment that bodage was CUT it was like a HEAVY rock fell from my shoulders, and I saw the relief in my young friend as well. I still am free from that OLD WAY, even today 15 years later. I think it was God (Christ Jesus) that cut that thing from us that day, becasue ever since that day there were not even "mind undressing again!" It was like the thread that connected the warmth in the lust was cut. There were no more LUST IN THE LOINS!

If Jesus sets you free, He makes you free indeed! And this is why there still need to be ALL the gifts, becasue the nine gifts explained in 1 Corinthians 12 is ALL the works Christ Jesus still do today. He is the ONLY ONE that maintains HIS Church, His Body! Jesus is the head, and ALL the gifts are from the HEAD to the BODY!... The Body does not have a will of His own, the Body does what the Head tells it to do. Let me throw you the verses that says how the Body of Christ Jesus operates and who is PART of that Body...

First of all... who is the peopel making up this church.... Saints that are perfected for the Body!
Eph 4:11 to 13...And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Secondly who maintain and how does He maintain this Body...even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ,.... Please note that Christ is th HEAD and the BODY IS subject to the HEAD!!!
Thirdly Christ does it PERFECTLY... That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Do you see how these "gifts" to all the people ACCOMPLISH the groundwork for ALL Christ has to do with the Church, to maintain it SPOTLESS? And that is why Christ Jesus maintain the Church HIMSELF...

May the Lord give us unity in faith and may we be joined to this BODY...Amen!

[Strangelove]

Whats the gist of the thread?

In brief?

[AnandaHya]

WOW, THIS IS Long, will have to tag it and read it later....

[AnandaHya]

Originally Posted by Strangelove

Whats the gist of the thread?

In brief?

still have two more long post to read through, but I think its a debate for the continuation of gifts based on some historical figures and their words, though a few cited have been since label heretics...anyways I found this interesting..

Tertullian wrote in The Shows (De Spectaculis) around the same period, "What nobler than to tread under foot the gods of the nations — to exorcise evil spirits — to perform cures — to seek divine revealings — to live for God?" (Chapter 29)

And yet he makes a distinction between the Prophets who wrote the Old Testament, and prophecy happening in his day: "For, since His advent and personal passion, there is no longer 'vision' or 'prophet;' whence most emphatically he says that His advent 'seals vision and prophecy.'" (An Answer to the Jews Chapter 11)

[AnandaHya]

ok now I have to research Jackson- Preston's debate from the beginning...

Jackson's position is for the continuing of gifts past the apostolic age...I believe Preston is a cessationist.

This is the conclusion of Jackson's position:


I have submitted in the course of this discussion six argument in defense of the proposition that miracles & spiritual gifts are for the church today. Each argument should be considered foundational only...an introductory thought as to why i believe the scriptures teach that miracles & spiritual gifts have never ceased in the Church of Christ, & why they have continued & will continue until the Return of Christ & to the end of this present gospel age.

My proposition is the result of a prayerful & careful researching of the Bible relative to the subject under discussion. No amount of human abuse of these matters has any bearing on the reality of these matters. I am not Pentecostal/Neo Pentecostal/Charismatic/or New Wave. Labels limit & diminish. I believe the scriptures, that is all. It is my christian duty to conform my life, my beliefs, & my actions to the word of God...rather than make the word of God conform my accumulated notions. May God help us all who love His word...to remain humble & teachable, daily walking with Christ our Savior with open minds & loving hearts. Heavenly Father, this we pray in the Name of your Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, amen.

CONCLUSION....

This debate with Mr. Preston has been real, & it has been fun, but at times it has not been REAL FUN(smile). I deeply appreciate Don's love for Christ & His word, his godly desire to know the truth of God as it is revealed in the sacred scripture. We have not only disagreed, but from the beginning agreed to disagree, & to pray one for another & for all who read, that throughout this discussion the One True & Living God(Father, Son & Holy Spirit)be honored & glorified as we carefully debate those issues near & dear to our hearts.

Many thanks to you Don Preston...for reawakening within me to question & research how & why i believe what i believe, & thanks to the debate administrator's for their kind & professional standards(& holding me to the same).

Christ's richest blessing upon you all!

R. Jackson

Here are the websites for the rest of the debate I could find:

3rd Jackson response- affirmative

Jackson-Preston Debate: The End of the Charismata: AD 70 Or Future? Jackson's Final Affirmative | eschatology.org

2nd Jackson response- negative

Jackson-Preston Debate: Cessation of the Charismata-Preston's Second Negative | eschatology.org

1st Jackson response -affirmative
Written Debate: Jackson -V- Preston: The Cessation of the Charismata-- Jackson's First Affirmative | eschatology.org


alright some what lacking since they want you to buy the book but Preston also has a debate with Simmons and then leads into one with Jackson but I don't really see Preston's arguments posted on the web...hmmm

oh here is

Preston's 3nd and final affirmative..

Written Debate: The Cessation of the Charismata | eschatology.org

oh well have to come back to the topic later, kids waking up.

thanks for the post Crossfire. It is an interesting debate to read and discuss.

what are your thoughts on it?

who do you think holds a better more biblical position and why?

[Consumed]

What's interesting is who cited them as heretics and what was their heresy.

I don't think anyone doubts God still is in the doing miracle business whenever He chooses to, then again or do they?? Or is the focus just on some or all emergent churches of the last 100yrs who mix it up with give to get rich, healed etc, bless me club pay admission at the door win a prize??

I know from my own personal experiences that God is still God, saved me from certain death more than once which one could only say was a miracle, bad bad car accident, building site accident falling off a building 7 stories up, both certain death, even before that I use to inject myself with enough natcotics in one dose to kill a horse with the intention of punching God in the face when I died and faced Him, stupid i know but He chose to still love me. I don't believe in luck.

That's why I get confused with the whole "it ceased when the foundation was laid"
Gifts??? I call it grace upon grace more so where sin abounded grace did even more. Comes a time one realizes that grace will only cover one so far unless something more evil befalls them. So much easier and better to yield Lolz

Sorry if I went off thread

[AnandaHya]

here are some more of it lol it kind of out of order but you can click and read it in order...

preston's 1st affirmative
Preston-Simmons Debate- Preston's First Affirmative | eschatology.org

Jackson's 1st negative
Written Debate on the Cessation of the Charismata-- Jackson's First Negative | eschatology.org

Preston's 2nd affirmativ

Written Debate: The Cessation of the Charismata-Preston's Second Affirmative | eschatology.org

Jackson's 2nd negative

Written Debate: Cessation of the Charismata- Richard Jackson's Second Negative | eschatology.org

[Consumed]

Thanks Ana, next question is who's Preston and who's Jackson Lolz but I will look at the links

Originally Posted by AnandaHya

here are some more of it lol it kind of out of order but you can click and read it in order...

preston's 1st affirmative
Preston-Simmons Debate- Preston's First Affirmative | eschatology.org

Jackson's 1st negative
Written Debate on the Cessation of the Charismata-- Jackson's First Negative | eschatology.org

Preston's 2nd affirmativ

Written Debate: The Cessation of the Charismata-Preston's Second Affirmative | eschatology.org

Jackson's 2nd negative

Written Debate: Cessation of the Charismata- Richard Jackson's Second Negative | eschatology.org

[Crossfire]

As I researching through some of threads, I believe it was Zone who put forth a challenge for someone to show that the spirituals gifts did in deed take place in the church after the age of the original Apostles had passed. In the articles that I have posted, you will find quotes from both several men that tell of the spirit gifts still occuring in their day Several of these men are widely accepted as early church fathers such as Irenaeus, Justin Martyr & St. Augustine while others, who are more obscure, are accepted by certain branches of the modern church and not others for various theological / doctrinal issues.


I personally believe that, while the spiritual gifts were on the decline, they did indeed exist after the apostolic age. The reason for the decline is simple; intense persecution by the Romans which forced the church underground, in many cases literally as archeology shows that caves and caverns had been often been used for early church gatherings.

[damombomb]

It is the same today,people want to quench the Holy Spirit which is the spirit of God through Jesus Christ, if they don,t understand this, they try to
tear it to pieces,the Holy spirit still works today! Everyone seems to have a hunger for him, they are tired of false doctrine, theology and a religios
spirits,they just want truth,without him (even the spirit of truth) we are dead, it is his rightiousnes, mercy, and grace, the true living God of issac, Abraham, and Jacob,grace and a certain measure of faith, has been given to all for the ministry, Paul a good example, he dared not touch gods glory

[Crossfire]

Originally Posted by Cobus

Crossfire, what a read.. and all so straight from the Bible, I did not read ALL, but to illistrat one little point Jesus said in the Bible, I would like to share one of my experiences with you. It is a (set free) experience from something bad! Let us call it a "demon/devil/evil spirit/fleshly lust/sin/ungodly action/works of darkness, or anything we want, but let us be sure it was something that God will NEVER approve!

Ok this THING I will name "ungodly love" or "unnatural love". Or let us put it in a bit more plain language.... whoring or fornication, the Bilical term of these loose sexual activities! It was never meant that any person should be a fornicator, and I was a BIG one. How it developed to it is another matter, for the clear understanding on HOW God is active today, to save souls, we will stick to the detail on how God removed this BAD THING from me and a friend in one single moment!

Ok I was bound to Satan, with ungodly sexual activities. And I started to realize this, but the THING that held me was VERY powerful. This crave to be active in this sin was just crazy! It was like I were really helpless... I would really try to withstand the temptation to start fliting with a beautiful woman, but before i know it she was already undressed and we would be into the act. I did not know my way out, and I had no control over it. Even after I had no opportunity to go for a woman, I still lust after her in my mind.

Soon the Lord even showed me that just lusting after them was also sin. Now I had NO HOPE AT ALL!!! I said.... Lord what must I do? How can I change this? How can I stop? Help me, please!

Then about two weeks later after a church sermon a young couple that wanted to get married asked me if they could come for pre-marriage councelling to me. I knew NOTHING about this type of councelling as I did not even go on something like this. And I was going to say no but the word "YES" came out of my mouth! Already something strange happened. I would not have said Yes, becasue I am not qualified as a counsellor of any sort!

So straight after church the two young people came to our house. The young man and I went and set at my desk in the study, and he said... Cobus, I was molested when I came into puberty, and ever since I have this uncontrolable thing in me that just drives my sexual desires to the limit ALL the time. Immediately I knew why that young man was there, and why "YES" was my answer, aspecially after I heard "Cobus, if you two pray now, and call in MY help, I will set both of you free from this BONDAGE FOREVER!"

Crossfire I am a mechanical engineer I do not hear "voices" but apparently I do, becasue there was a moment I wanted to ask the oyung man if he also heard the voice. Anyway we prayed and the moment that bodage was CUT it was like a HEAVY rock fell from my shoulders, and I saw the relief in my young friend as well. I still am free from that OLD WAY, even today 15 years later. I think it was God (Christ Jesus) that cut that thing from us that day, becasue ever since that day there were not even "mind undressing again!" It was like the thread that connected the warmth in the lust was cut. There were no more LUST IN THE LOINS!

If Jesus sets you free, He makes you free indeed! And this is why there still need to be ALL the gifts, becasue the nine gifts explained in 1 Corinthians 12 is ALL the works Christ Jesus still do today. He is the ONLY ONE that maintains HIS Church, His Body! Jesus is the head, and ALL the gifts are from the HEAD to the BODY!... The Body does not have a will of His own, the Body does what the Head tells it to do. Let me throw you the verses that says how the Body of Christ Jesus operates and who is PART of that Body...

First of all... who is the peopel making up this church.... Saints that are perfected for the Body!
Eph 4:11 to 13...And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Secondly who maintain and how does He maintain this Body...even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ,.... Please note that Christ is th HEAD and the BODY IS subject to the HEAD!!!
Thirdly Christ does it PERFECTLY... That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Do you see how these "gifts" to all the people ACCOMPLISH the groundwork for ALL Christ has to do with the Church, to maintain it SPOTLESS? And that is why Christ Jesus maintain the Church HIMSELF...

May the Lord give us unity in faith and may we be joined to this BODY...Amen!

Awesome testimony!

[loveschild]

Too many people worship people in the bible as if they were more than people. They were people just like now a days, there still people today go look in the mirror. There were children of God in the bible days and there are still children of God these days. Stop worshiping people in the bible. They were written of so by what they did can lead you to Christ and so you can do as they they did.

Those people had no more power of God than people today. God opened a sea for them and he is still doing so for us. God has so much power he wants to pour onto his children who love and obey him but many will be passed by. Some are using his name and great things are happening in the name of mighty Jesus.

Too many are standing at the waters edge afraid to get in the water. Many are so deep in the water they never want to get out. Too many are spending way too much time talking about a God they have no clue of. They need to stay on there knees and not get up until they hear from God. Others need to stop asking what do I do... what do I do... and go do something. Way too many are comfortable and not going to do anything that which cause them to get out of there comfy spot. Some are very pleasing to God and he is taking them farther and farther into him.

Go pray for someone. Take a meal to some old person all alone. Pay attention to the kids in the neighborhood. Care if they are safe. Go volunteer someone where. Get off your butts. Reading your bibles don't make you all godly you know.

[Crossfire]

Since others like to 'bump' threads which argue that the spiritual gifts died out with the original apostles, I believe this thread worth a bump seeing as it provides historical evidence that they are most likely wrong.