Unconditional Election

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#1
God chose you for salvation before the foundation of the world. You were saved by God and By God's power and that is why you don't need to worry about losing your salvation. You weren't saved by any good works you did or any good decisions you made. You were saved by the Hand of God who is Mighty to Save.


Ephesians 1:4-9 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


Romans 9:13-24 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

There are a bunch more scriptures saying much the same thing but these are pretty much the main ones.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#2
God chose you for salvation before the foundation of the world. You were saved by God and By God's power and that is why you don't need to worry about losing your salvation. You weren't saved by any good works you did or any good decisions you made. You were saved by the Hand of God who is Mighty to Save.


Ephesians 1:4-9 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


Romans 9:13-24 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

There are a bunch more scriptures saying much the same thing but these are pretty much the main ones.

Grandpa: God bless you.

Orthodox Study Bible, Romans:
9:19-21 Man can have no complaint against God's sovereignty any more than clay can question the potter about how he fashions it. When we recognize our standing before God, the objections vanish (Job 38:1- 42:6). It is not only impossible to answer questions of this kind (vv. 22-24), but it is presumptuous to raise them (John Chrysostom)". OSB, page 1539.
Ephesians
1:4-6 Everything comes form God, and everything should be drawn back to Him. God's original intent for the Incarnation was not redemption from the Fall but adoption as sons of God (v. 5), that is, deification. For when God contemplated creating the world, He planned on bringing it back into union with Himself through the Incarnation of His Son, that is, through the Son's union with human nature. That is why St. Athanasius can say, "God became man that man might become god."
"The Father chose us (v. 4) in Him, the Son. Christ, who is God by nature, became Man by choice. If we choose Him, we who are human by nature, become "gods' by grace. If we are in Christ, the Son of God, we are sons of God. Paul is not addressing individuals as such but us, the community, the Church. And he is not addressing the issue of human will in salvation but the will of God, which is that all are chosen (see Rom. 11:31; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9). But being predestined (v. 5) by God does not nullify human will; in everything, God is the originator, the initiator; we merely respond, but our response is necessary. Becoming a Christian is not so much inviting Christ into one's life and getting oneself into Christ's life. What is true of Christ must become true of one who is in Him."
OSB page 1598.
OSB= Orthodox Study Bible. SAAS Saint Athanasius Academy Septuagint, OT. NKJV New King James Version, NT. Fr. Jack N. Sparks, Ph.D., Dean, editor. Copyright 2008, St. Athanasius Academy of Orthodox Theology, Elk Grove, CA. Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Bibles.
God save us in Christ Who chose us in His love, that we should believe in Him in love (John 3:16; Gal. 5:6). Amen. In Erie PA USA September 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#4
Please back up your claim with scripture 4runner.
 
I

Israel

Guest
#5
You still do not get it beloved of God. How can one "choose" Him if he was predestined to begin? Again, before the children being born; BOTH Jacob AND Esau, before any evil OR good was committed by EITHER of them so that the PURPOSE of election might stand. Jacob God loved, Esau He hated, but the truth is God has concluded both (all) in unbelief that He might save all. Was not Pharaoh predestined as well? The scriptures says that he was raised for a PURPOSE. We all are predestined.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#6
You still do not get it beloved of God. How can one "choose" Him if he was predestined to begin? Again, before the children being born; BOTH Jacob AND Esau, before any evil OR good was committed by EITHER of them so that the PURPOSE of election might stand. Jacob God loved, Esau He hated, but the truth is God has concluded both (all) in unbelief that He might save all. Was not Pharaoh predestined as well? The scriptures says that he was raised for a PURPOSE. We all are predestined.
I really like your first sentence, except the I don't get it part. I would ask how can one "choose" Him if he weren't one of the elect?
 
I

Israel

Guest
#7
I really like your first sentence, except the I don't get it part. I would ask how can one "choose" Him if he weren't one of the elect?
This was meant for Scott friend and not you; sorry. But to answer your question, if Israel is God's firstborn and chosen, and in that all of Israel will be saved; Who then is Israel? All of us! Most are blinded and lost. But my Lord said that HE WAS ONLY SENT TO THE LOST SHEEP of Israel. We were all made and declared, very good by God.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#9
4runner, I have some verses for you.



Deuteronomy 7:6-10

New International Version (NIV)


6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. 7 The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments. 10 But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.








Deuteronomy 7:15
New International Version (NIV)

15 The LORD will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you.





Deuteronomy 9:5

New International Version (NIV)

5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.





Deuteronomy 29:4

New International Version (NIV)

4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.





Psalm 65:4

New International Version (NIV)


4 Blessed are those you choose
and bring near to live in your courts!
We are filled with the good things of your house,
of your holy temple.






Isaiah 45:4

New International Version (NIV)


4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.








Mark 13:20

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20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.





John 1:13

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13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.



Show Commentary

John 6:44

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44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.


John 6:65



New International Version (NIV)

65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”




John 15:16

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16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.




John 17:2

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2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.




Acts 2:39

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39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”




Acts 9:1-18

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Acts 9

Saul’s Conversion

1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”
“Yes, Lord,” he answered.
11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”
13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”
15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” 17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,




Acts 11:17

New International Version (NIV)

17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”




Acts 16:14

New International Version (NIV)

14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.




Acts 18:27

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27 When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers and sisters encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.





Romans 8:28-30

New International Version (NIV)


28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.





Romans 9:10-26

New International Version (NIV)



10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[a] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[b]
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion
.”[c]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[d] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[e] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[f] 26 and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[g]






Romans 10:20

New International Version (NIV)



20 And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me
.”[a]






Romans 11:5

New International Version (NIV)

5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#10






Ephesians 1:1-11



New International Version (NIV)


Ephesians 1


1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,






1 Corinthians 1:1

New International Version (NIV)


1 Corinthians 1

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,




2 Corinthians 4:6

New International Version (NIV)

6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”[a] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.




Philippians 1:29

New International Version (NIV)

29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

1 Thessalonians 1:2-4

New International Version (NIV)


Thanksgiving for the Thessalonians’ Faith

2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. 3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers and sisters[a] loved by God, that he has chosen you,





2 Thessalonians 2:13

New International Version (NIV)


Stand Firm

13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits[a] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.






2 Timothy 1:9

New International Version (NIV)

9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,





2 Timothy 2:10

New International Version (NIV)

10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.





2 Timothy 2:19

New International Version (NIV)

19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”





2 Timothy 2:25

New International Version (NIV)

25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,




Titus 3:5

New International Version (NIV)

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Hebrews 9:15





New International Version (NIV)


15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.




James 1:18

New International Version (NIV)

18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
 
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#11
I chose my wife, but did that mean she had no choice or could not have said no?

Election is condition on us saying yes.
 
G

GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#16
God chose you for salvation before the foundation of the world. You were saved by God and By God's power and that is why you don't need to worry about losing your salvation. You weren't saved by any good works you did or any good decisions you made. You were saved by the Hand of God who is Mighty to Save.


Ephesians 1:4-9 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


Romans 9:13-24 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

There are a bunch more scriptures saying much the same thing but these are pretty much the main ones.
I've been away from ChristianChat for quite some time, but I've definitely kept tabs, and have been so boggled down between all these projects I've taken on, one of which is a lengthy (20+ pages) response to a post made here concerning the Deity of Christ. However, I wanted to make a quick post concerning this.

There's much here in Romans 9 that you've skipped over that even exemplifies your case further for Unconditional Election,

“For this is the word of promise: ‘AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.’ And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, ‘THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.’ Just as it is written, ‘JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.’ What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!”
Before the twins were born, before they had done anything good or bad, God made a choice! He didn’t look down the long corridors of time and foresee what good they would do or anything to that effect. No, God chose one over the other, and it wasn’t because of something they did, but because He chose to have mercy on whom He has mercy. If election was based off God looking into the future and choosing Jacob over Esau, because of an action they performed, then might I suggest that both, Jacob, and Esau would be hated by the Almighty. As if He did not know the future of the lying, and deceitful Jacob! Because of God’s own sovereign choice, He chose to have mercy on the lying and deceitful Jacob, and not Esau.

In response to 4runner, as Calvinists we do not deny that men have a will, for they certainly do have a will, and an exceedingly wicked one at that. Calvinists do not say that the spiritually blind (1 Corinthians 2:14), the spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1, Colossians 2:13), whom are slaves to the wicked one (Ephesians 2:2) cannot respond to God. No, dead men certainly do respond… in accordance to their born-in-sin nature, full of hate and rebellion towards a Just and Holy God! Calvinism adheres that every part of man, including his will, mind, and emotions are corrupted by sin (John 3:19, John 8:34), and unless regenerated by the Spirit of God, whom is God Himself, they will carry on in their sinful ways.


As I've always said, Jesus did not say, "you are not My sheep, because you do not believe." No, He said something very different to the Pharisees, "you do not believe because you are not My sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they will never perish." The reason they couldn't understand, is what reason? Because they didn't choose to believe? Or because they weren't Christ's sheep?
 
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J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#17
I chose my wife, but did that mean she had no choice or could not have said no?

Election is condition on us saying yes.
I thought you said your beliefs were biblical. This seems pretty rhetorical...


Less rhetoric, more verses.


Election is not conditional biblically speaking. It is strictly unconditional as the verses I posted display. It is not about anything we do, or have to offer, or say, or how many condominiums we own. We have nothing we can offer to God. (thought that was obvious)

As for the question of the wife, it's not a good analogy.

A better question would be, did the shirt you're wearing choose you, or did you choose it? Why does this matter? We as humans due to our depravity, cannot in our most basic nature seek God by our own power, rather, it requires the work of the holy spirit.
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#18
I've been away from ChristianChat for quite some time, but I've definitely kept tabs, and have been so boggled down between all these projects I've taken on, one of which is a lengthy (20+ pages) response to a post made here concerning the Deity of Christ. However, I wanted to make a quick post concerning this.

There's much here in Romans 9 that you've skipped over that even exemplifies your case further for Unconditional Election,
“For this is the word of promise: ‘AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.’ And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, ‘THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.’ Just as it is written, ‘JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.’ What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!”
Before the twins were born, before they had done anything good or bad, God made a choice! He didn’t look down the long corridors of time and foresee what good they would do or anything to that effect. No, God chose one over the other, and it wasn’t because of something they did, but because He chose to have mercy on whom He has mercy. If election was based off God looking into the future and choosing Jacob over Esau, because of an action they performed, then might I suggest that both, Jacob, and Esau would be hated by the Almighty. As if He did not know the future of the lying, and deceitful Jacob! Because of God’s own sovereign choice, He chose to have mercy on the lying and deceitful Jacob, and not Esau.

In response to 4runner, as Calvinists we do not deny that men have a will, for they certainly do have a will, and an exceedingly wicked one at that. Calvinists do not say that the spiritually blind (1 Corinthians 2:14), the spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1, Colossians 2:13), whom are slaves to the wicked one (Ephesians 2:2) cannot respond to God. No, dead men certainly do respond… in accordance to their born-in-sin nature, full of hate and rebellion towards a Just and Holy God! Calvinism adheres that every part of man, including his will, mind, and emotions are corrupted by sin (John 3:19, John 8:34), and unless regenerated by the Spirit of God, whom is God Himself, they will carry on in their sinful ways.

As I've always said, Jesus did not say, "you are not My sheep, because you do not believe." No, He said something very different to the Pharisees, "you do not believe because you are not My sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they will never perish." The reason they couldn't understand, is what reason? Because they didn't choose to believe? Or because they weren't Christ's sheep?
Christ was not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance (2Pt 3:9, Mt 9:13), that included the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes and all men of the Jews and of the Greeks (Gentiles - Rom 1:16). Was not Paul, as a Pharisee zealous of the righteousness of the law and blameless, converted and did he not say in (Rom 11:1, Phil 3:5,6) that God had not forsaken Israel? Those of Jewish origin had a system of belief and a righteousness that came through the law of Moses and that system of belief and works needed to be repented of for them to believe in Christ.

Those that did not believe were the ones who would not repent and therefore were not counted as sheep nor could they hear the voice of the Shepherd. In (Acts 2:38-44) they were all Jews that were gathered for Pentecost in Jerusalem, who heard in their own language and listened to the voice of Peter who preached Christ whom that had crucified on a tree, and being pricked in their hearts (v.37)and asked what they should do, they repented and believed together. These 3,000 souls that repented and believed (v.41) were undoubtedly under the teaching of the law of the Pharisees and under Moses' law. They heard the Shepherd's voice that day and responded and continued steadfastly in the apostle's doctrine, in breaking of bread, in fellowship and prayer and daily with one accord in the temple (v.42-47).
 
Jul 3, 2011
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#19
I thought you said your beliefs were biblical. This seems pretty rhetorical...


Less rhetoric, more verses.
The fact is I could give a houndred verses to prove that God does not abitrarily choose to save some and damn others. It would move you a inch.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#20
The fact is I could give a houndred verses to prove that God does not abitrarily choose to save some and damn others. It would move you a inch.
why not trying giving them and see what happens?

didn't God tell people to speak Truth into the lives of others?

I would love to see more scriptures in the BIBLE discussion forum. I never get tired of reading His Holy words. :)