Revelation 13: 18: Number of A Man or Number of Man

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texian

Guest
#1

Revelation 13: 18: Number of A Man, or Number of Man
Bernard Pyron


On a Christian forum a guy said: "Revelation 13:5-10: "The Beast {666} will exercise his authority for 42 months {Or 1260 days or 3 1/2 times}......He will be given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he will be given authority over *EVERY* tribe, people, language and nation. *ALL*
inhabitants of the earth will worship the Beast {666}--all whose names
have not been written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb...This
calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the
saints."


He also said ""Rev 13:16,17: "He {The False Prophet} forced everyone... to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead. No one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name {666}. 666 is called a "BEAST" 36 {6x6} times in Revelation. The BEAST is a much better name than the antichrist since anti-christ is mentioned 5 times in God's Word {I John 2:18{2X}, 22; 4:3; 2 John 1:7} and each time the word encompasses all who are against Christ. Such as I John 2:18: "Even now many anti-christs have come."

The description of first beast of Revelation 13 begins in verse 2 as
being like a leopard, a bear, and a lion, which refers to the Daniel 7
beasts, who are the same except for the fourth dreadful and terrible
beast. Then in 13: 3 one of the heads of the first beast was wounded
to death, but his wound was healed and all the world wondered after
the beast.


Then in verses 5 to 7 the first beast is referred to a "he."

The dispensationalist insistence on consistent literalism can mess up
an understanding of what the first beast is.

Calling the first beast a "he" does not necessarily mean this is one
man, the super one man beast. Nor is the second beast of Revelation
13: 11-18 is one man, but is a type, representing many false
prophets.


To be consistent with Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, the first beast would be
a government, an empire. There were six main empires before the Cross, the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman empires. The last four of these empires that came before the Cross are found in Daniel 2: 31-44. Then the four beasts of Daniel 7: 4-8 represent the last four world empires after the Cross. There were two Catholic empires which came after the Cross, but before these four last empires of Daniel 7. The two Catholic empires were the Holy Roman and Catholic Spanish empires. The four world empires of Daniel 7 are the lion. the bear, the leopard and the beast who is dreadful and terrible.


The head of the beast whose deadly wound was
healed sounds like the nation of Israel, also the little horn of
Daniel 7: 8.


In 2010 some Facebook Remnant people and I looked at Revelation 13: 18, on whether the number 666 is applied to "A man," or to man as all men.

On Revelation 13:18 Greek Texts and Analysis
A Greek-English Interlinear for the Westcott-Hort Greek, says
"...arithmon (number) tou (of the) thēriou (beast) arithmos (number) gar (for) anthrōpou (of man) estin (it is)..."
It does not say "number of a man." It translates anthropou, from which we get
our anthropology, as man in the abstract.


It happens that the Westcott-Hort for Rev 13: 18 has exactly the same Greek
words as the Textus Receptus.


The Revised Standard Version for Rev 13: 18 has:
"This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the
beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six."


The New International Version for Rev 13: 18 says:
"This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of
the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666."


The NIV and the Revised Standard Version are based mainly on the Westcott-Hort
Greek text, which is essentially the same, for this verse, as that of the Textus
Receptus, from which the King James is translated. But both these translations
say it is man in the abstract who has the number, and not an individual.

The King James Version for Rev 13: 18 says "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:

for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

I joined a Christian Yahoo group in 2010, whichversion, to ask about the Greek in Rev 13: 18.

Here is the response I got from one member who knows more Koine Greek than I do: "The problem is that Greek has no indefinite article, unlike English.
ANQRWPOU may fairly be rendered either "of man" or "of a man." It is
context that then must determine which is the best way to translate the
text. If a specific individual were in mind, Greek would normally use the
definite article (which it does have), but that's the other part of the
problem -- Revelation is hardly written in what anybody would recognize as
standard Greek, even of the Koine period."


Despite all the problems with the New International Version, it has "for it is man's number. His number is 666." A Westcott-Hort Greek-English Interlinear says it is man's number.
John's Greek ""anthropou estin" is not real clear whether he is saying its the number of A man or of man as a species.

The 6,7 and 8 cycle is given in a very brief way in Revelation 17: 11, "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."
The beast is said to have been in number seven, which is God's rest (Genesis 2:2-3, Hebrews 4: 3, 5). It is implied in Revelation 17: 11 that before the beast was in number seven, it was in number six, which is man's position - in Genesis 1: 26, 31. Man was created on the sixth day, and following the sixth day God rested. God's rest into which those in Christ are to enter is number seven.

Since man's number, before he is born again by the Spirit in Jesus Christ, which is God's rest, is number six, 666 refers to unregenerated man or man as a species, anthropos. Our English word "anthropomorphise" means to attribute to a human the traits of an animal, abstract concept or construct, hence, to claim that what is called a beast in prophecy must be one man.

Matthew 24: 11 says "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." A number of other New Testament verses, including Matthew 7: 15, Mark 13: 22-23,Luke 6: 26, II Peter 2: 1, and I John 4: 1, say there are many false prophets. To be consistent with New Testament use of false prophets, the second beast of Revelation 13: 11-18 would refer to many false prophets, not one man.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#2
The head of the beast whose deadly wound was
healed sounds like the nation of Israel, also the little horn of
Daniel 7: 8.
agree. but apostate and counterfeit israel.
the head that received the deadly wound is a mountain/system. it is a separate 7 heads.
one of those mountains was Moriah..70AD

On Revelation 13:18 Greek Texts and Analysis
A Greek-English Interlinear for the Westcott-Hort Greek, says
"...arithmon (number) tou (of the) thēriou (beast) arithmos (number) gar (for) anthrōpou (of man) estin (it is)..."
It does not say "number of a man." It translates anthropou, from which we get
our anthropology, as man in the abstract.
westcott & hort were occultists.
their work is suspect.


KJV
Revelation 13
11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


Six hundred threescore and six.

this exact phrase (not 666) appears only x2 in scripture.


here's the other place: i am not saying solomon is the son of perdition.
he did however fall into complete idolatry, and the kingdom was forever divided after him....until Christ.
read all about the construction of the temple, the laborers used, both in scripture and OTHER sources.



1 Kings 1:10
14Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,





here is the genealogy of The King of Kings, The King, Jesus Christ, through Mary.


Luke 3
Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 24Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, 25Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge, 26Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda, 27Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri, 28Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er, 29Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, 30Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim, 31Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, 32Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson, 33Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda, 34Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, 35Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, 36Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech, 37Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, 38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.




Mary and Jesus came through Jesse and David, but through David's OTHER son Nathan.
Jesus did NOT come through Solomon.




Jewish messianism



Many of the scriptural requirements concerning the Messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located in the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well. Views on whether Hebrew Bible passages are Messianic may vary from and among scholars of ancient Israel looking at their meaning in original context and from and among rabbinical scholars.

Jewish messianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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texian

Guest
#3
"westcott & hort were occultists.
their work is suspect."

Yes, thats true. I did an eight part series on the issue of the Westcott-Hort Greek text versus the Textus Receptus and the eighth is called
"Riders of the Wrecking Machine: The Occult Connections of Westcott and Hort at"

The Remnant - Riders of the Wrecking Machine: The Occult Connections of Westcott and Hort- JournalHome.com

But for Revelation 13: 18 the Westcott-Hort Geek is identical to that of the Textus Receptus. If there is an argument about the number 666 being that of man as a species rather than of a man, the "fault" for this verse would be the guy who wrote the Interlinear.

There is a way out of the either-or issue, its either one individual man (following the consistent literalism of dispensationalism) or the number of the human race. The therion, Strong's number 2342, "dangerous, venomous, wild beast," is used as a metaphor, which is not explained in the Book of Revelation. The "he" refers to the metaphor, not necessarily to what the metaphor represents. The therion as venomous beast is a "he." What it represents may not be one individual, as with the first beast of Revelation 13 which if seen as a world empire is consistent with what is says in verse 2 -like a leopard,bear and lion, and is consistent with the empires of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. The second beast of Revelation 13, if interpreted by scriptures talking about false prophets plural, as of many, would be a "he" referring to the therion representing the collective false prophets. but not saying there is only one super False Prophet. Revelation 19: 20 saying the False Prophet is to be cast into the lake of fire means the many false prophets are pitched into the lake of fire. Classical dispensationalism would not agree with this way out of the either-or dilemma, and wold insist that its consistent literalism be observed, and the second beast of Revelation 13 has to be one super False Prophet, who as one individual is thrown into the lake of fire.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#4
The last days is more about worship. those who worship the beast receive a mark those who worship God receive a seal.
The mark of the beast is a counterfeit to the seal of God.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#5
westcott and hort were no worse than the man who produced the textus receptus...

the textus receptus was produced by a roman catholic and humanist named erasmus... erasmus was so devoted to the roman catholic church that he once wrote that he would agree with the heretics if the roman catholic church approved it

i am glad God is able to use fallible people like erasmus and westcott and hort to do his will
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#6
"westcott & hort were occultists.
their work is suspect."

Yes, thats true. I did an eight part series on the issue of the Westcott-Hort Greek text versus the Textus Receptus and the eighth is called
"Riders of the Wrecking Machine: The Occult Connections of Westcott and Hort at"

The Remnant - Riders of the Wrecking Machine: The Occult Connections of Westcott and Hort- JournalHome.com

But for Revelation 13: 18 the Westcott-Hort Geek is identical to that of the Textus Receptus. If there is an argument about the number 666 being that of man as a species rather than of a man, the "fault" for this verse would be the guy who wrote the Interlinear.

There is a way out of the either-or issue, its either one individual man (following the consistent literalism of dispensationalism) or the number of the human race. The therion, Strong's number 2342, "dangerous, venomous, wild beast," is used as a metaphor, which is not explained in the Book of Revelation. The "he" refers to the metaphor, not necessarily to what the metaphor represents. The therion as venomous beast is a "he." What it represents may not be one individual, as with the first beast of Revelation 13 which if seen as a world empire is consistent with what is says in verse 2 -like a leopard,bear and lion, and is consistent with the empires of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. The second beast of Revelation 13, if interpreted by scriptures talking about false prophets plural, as of many, would be a "he" referring to the therion representing the collective false prophets. but not saying there is only one super False Prophet. Revelation 19: 20 saying the False Prophet is to be cast into the lake of fire means the many false prophets are pitched into the lake of fire. Classical dispensationalism would not agree with this way out of the either-or dilemma, and wold insist that its consistent literalism be observed, and the second beast of Revelation 13 has to be one super False Prophet, who as one individual is thrown into the lake of fire.
is the "he, the son of perdition in 2 Thess a metaphor?
is he a system?
or is he a MAN?
 
T

texian

Guest
#7
If the second beast of Revelation 13 is seen to be called a "he" that refers to the metaphor - the therion - then the "he" whose number is 666 is the metaphor's number, not necessarily meaning that the metaphor represents one man. In other words, the "he" is following the language of metaphor, and does not refer to a literal individual person, nor does the metaphor represent an individual. Its like a parable, where the text stays in the language of the parable. One guy calls this "Apocalyptic Linguistics: The Language Of Prophetic Metaphor. In the language of metaphor or of parables, the "he" is not necessarily more literal than people who go to church are literal wheat and tares. "is the "he, the son of perdition in 2 Thess a metaphor? is he a system? or is he a MAN? " When does the falling away happen? Does the leavening of Luke 13: 21 begin to take place after the beginning of the tribulation? How are we to know exactly when the tribulation begins, if it is to be clearly marked off as "the tribulation,"and not just tribulation which likely gets worse as time goes by during the final days of this age? In Luke 13: 21 the metaphor says a woman hid leaven in three measures of meal, till (or until) the whole was leavened. The until indicates the leavening goes on for a while. The leavening has been going on for decades and we have seen a lot of falling away in the last few decades. In II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 the man of sin who is the son of perdition is revealed at the time of the falling away, or soon after the falling away begins. The man of sin and the son of perdition are not metaphors in the same way as the therion is. But the man of sin is the same as the son of perdition in this verse, and this could refer to a type of person rather than one single individual. Then, we can see that this type of individual is already running around in some numbers, especially in the churches. Since Satan's kingdom is divided, usually into two parts, there is the false prophet, who stands for many false prophets, and there is the anti-Christ, who stands for many who have within them the spirit of anti-Christ. Since Paul is talking about a falling away that happens to the church, the man of sin would then be the false prophet, as a type, who represents many false prophets. The spirit of anti-Christ is found more within the Judiazing movements such as Messianic Judaism, the Hebrew Roots movement and perhaps the Sacred Namers, to which the John Hagee type of dispensationalism may very well join. But mainstream church Christianity falls away due to the work of the false prophets who are deceptive with their false doctrines. John Hagee, of course, is a false prophet who does his work on a part of the dispensationalist church who may then join with the more anti-Christ factions, who more obviously mix the old and new covenants and in that way become anti-Christ.