Iron Oxide Whell-Thrown Piece Dispensationalism Honors All Israel, Including that of

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T

texian

Guest
#1

Dispensationalism Honors All Israel, Including that of the "Shadow"


The postulate that the Bible must be consistently interpreted in a literal
way is very important in dispensationalism The classical dispensationalists
say their claim that "Israel" in scripture must always be physical Israel
derives from their consistent literal "hermeneutic," from the pagan god
Hermes.


Their literal hermeneutic goes along with their insistence that "all Israel"
must be honored, which includes everybody who has or claims to have the
DNA of Abraham, and all Israelites who rejected Christ and continue to do so
are part of their "all Israel."


They took over most of the evangelical denominations
in a few years after the Niagra Bible Conference (1876 to 1897) and the
first edition of the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. They almost
made evangelical
Christianity into another faith, and did make it into another Gospel
within the general
structure of institutionalized Christianity. This "other Gospel"
(Galatians 1: 6-9) within
the organized Christian "church" serves to honor "all Israel."


There is no New Testament scripture saying "all Israel" remains the
chosen people. There
is no more entry into Israel by birth, no more racism, and arguments
about those who claim
to be Jews but don't have the DNA of Abraham are arguments within the
flesh, not within the Spirit.


The literalist hermeneutic of dispensationalism goes along with its
honoring of the Israel of the
Old Covenant. There were clearly individuals within the Old Covenant
who were led by
the Spirit, these were a Remnant. But the majority of Israelites
which dispensationalism honors were
operating in the physical, in the carnal nature of man, not in the
spirit. We can begin to ask to what
extent classical dispensationalism, in honoring physical Israel, and
some early dispensationalists
placed Israelites above Gentile Christians in the thousand year
Kingdom, were fixated on the physical level.


Dispensationalism's literalist bent plays into the physical. Take
a scripture like Romans 8: 1, 9: "There is therefore now no
condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the
flesh, but after the Spirit..But ye are not in the flesh, but in the
Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man
have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Dispensationalists
may give lip service to this text, but is it really true of where they
have positioned themselves, in honoring "all Israel" so much and
focusing upon the literal-physical? "Are ye so foolish? having begun
in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"


Israel is represented as the good olive tree of Romans 11, where the Israelites who did not believe on Christ were cut off the tree, and Gentile believers were grafted in. The fig tree in Luke 6-9 represents Israel, all Israel. In verse
7 the owner of the tree, God the Father, said to cut the tree down, because
it was bearing no fruit. But the dresser of the vinyard, Christ, asked the Father
to allow him to work with the fig tree, and if after that it bears no fruit, then we will cut it down.


Then in John 15: 5-6 Christ says he is the vine. In verses 6-7
Christ says if a person does not abide in him, he is cast forth as a branch and becomes withered. The branches that do not abide, or remain, in Christ are then burned.


In all three of the New Testament parables the
trees and the vine represent Israel, and in all three Israel is pruned back
because of unbelief


There is an interesting parable of these two trees and the vine in the Old Testament, in Judges 9: 8-15. "The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
9. But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
10. And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.
11. But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?"

But in Judges 9: 14-15 there are these interesting verses; "Then
said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us.
15. And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me
king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not,
let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon."


They wanted the bramble to be their king rather than God. In other
words, they wanted to follow the ways of man rather than of God. Following the ways of man rather than the ways of God also meant, for the ancient Israelites, that they followed some doctrines and practices of man rather than those of God
But a little leaven leavens the whole loaf.


And "shadow" is used in the New Testament as a kind of metaphor - in
Colossians 2: 16-17, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in
drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the
sabbath days: 17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ"

And in Hebrews 10: 1, "For the law having a shadow of good things to
come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those
sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers
thereunto perfect."


A "shadow" is of darkness, and not the light. The Old Covenant is a
shadow of the substance that is the New Covenant. The Old Covenant
was physical - entry was by the physical, literal DNA of Abraham,
males were circumcised in their literal flesh, and the temple was a
literal, physical building.


The substance, which is the New Covenant transformed Israel into the
spiritual. This is what the parables of the fig tree and the vine
are about, getting rid of the unfruitful part of Israel.


There is that thread running through the Old Testament predicting that transformation of Israel confined to the literal-physical and to the "shadows" into Israel reborn in Christ Jesus to become the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5.
The thread begins in II Kings 21: 13, "And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down."

God promises to wipe Jerusalem clean and turn it upside down. Guess who "Jerusalem" is here? Its "all Israel."

This thread picks up again in Isaiah 29: 16, "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"

Isaiah 29: 16 points to Jeremiah 18: 1-6, the parable of the potter. God is represented as the potter. "The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2. Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

God made a pot on the potter's wheel from a lump of clay, representing physical Israel. But the pot, or vessel, was marred, so the potter, as God, made the same lump of clay into another vessel which seemed good to God the potter.

Physical-literal Israel was not replaced by the Catholic Church as a body of Christ different from Israel. Calvinism and orthodox Lutheranism did not totally follow the Catholic claim to have replaced Israel with its "Church," the capital C Church. Calvinism and Lutheranism sort of mixed the "church,"with Israel reborn in Christ. They talked about the "church" as though it is a different body of Christ, but at the same time they often said that their "church" and the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16) are one and the same.

Dispensationalism came along in the 19th century and said no, the Catholic Church did not replace All Israel, but that now God has two peoples. All Israel and the "Church," reclaiming the Catholic capital C "Church" as its own. In dispensationalism the "Church" did not repace All Israel, the church as a sort of lesser group of God's people now exists along side of All Israel. And All Israel is to be honored, says dispensationalism, as God's chosen, because God postponed the bringing of All Israel into the kingdom until the tribulation or millennium or sometime.

But in the substantive New Covenant the spiritual is light and not
shadow, or darkness. After the transformation of physical Israel, Christ was
first the light, then all those who have something of the mind of Christ are light (John8: 12, Matthew 5: 14).


Since the dispensationalists want to honor "All Israel," they are also honoring the majority of Old Covenant Israel of the shadows, and in doing so end up back in the physical with their literalist-physical method of interpretation. Dispensationalism
honors the "shadows," and not the substance in claiming or
implying that All Israel remain God's chosen people


What is a "bramble?" Bramble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia says
"Brambles are thorny plants of the genus Rubus, in the rose family
(Rosaceae),,,many have recurved thorns that dig into clothing and
flesh when the victim tries to pull away from them. Some types also
have hair-like thorns."


The Israelites in the parable of Judges 9 want to make a a man
represented by a thorny plant their king? This was long before they
wanted God to give them a king and he allowed them to have Saul as
their king, who did not please God and God got rid of him and put
David on gthe throne. Saul represents the Old Covenant and David the
New Covenant.
 
S

Slepsog4

Guest
#2
FYI -- Judges 9 is not a parable. It is actually a fable.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#3
texian good stuff....waiting for part 2 and 3 and 4:)
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#4
wow, great thread

now i know what dispensationalists believe , i know call me ignorant however praise God as He promised He would lead me in all truth and dispensationism wasnt that as being true from very early in my walk, like day one, shadow of the better covenant, spiritual israel - the church - Jesus as the head

:)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#5
I did not read the whole thing. Did not really need to.

The first claim you make


The classical dispensationalists
say their claim that "Israel" in scripture must always be physical Israel
derives from their consistent literal "hermeneutic," from the pagan god
Hermes.


Their literal hermeneutic goes along with their insistence that "all Israel"
must be honored, which includes everybody who has or claims to have the
DNA of Abraham, and all Israelites who rejected Christ and continue to do so
are part of their "all Israel."
Is false. So I saw no need to go further. However. if you would like I could probably refute much more of what you said also!

I recommend you people find out what all people belief instead of outright condemning them because a few of them may believe on way. This is how a Catholic or EO person does things. Not how we as Gods people should act!

I am a dispensationalists.

1. I do not, not have I ever claimed, that All Isreal MUST be honored in any way shape or form
2. All Scripture can not be literally interpreted. It makes no sense. There are times when God spoke in parable or symbolic form. So to say I always use literal is also false!


However. When it comes to prophesy. God has always made prophesy which has already been fulfilled literally fulfilled in every iota. Why would we then make future prophesy, which God gives us literal means of things that WILL happen. and take them in a symbolic form.

One way to interpret any writing is to see how an author does things. If he uses literal means to explain thing which has already happened in every aspect. We should use this same means to interpret things which have not come to pass yet. An Author does not change the way he writes things. However, people do make the author change the way he does things when they disagree with the author. or the author contradicts there belief.

this is what Non Dispensationalists do.

Yes there are many dispensationalists who do what you claimed in this section they do. But we all do not. so why would you put us under the same condemnation??
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#6
ot is a typology of the newcovenant,

christ concealed / christ revealed

not about this world, just passing thru foreigners in the land

:)

but each to their own :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#7
ot is a typology of the newcovenant,

christ concealed / christ revealed

not about this world, just passing thru foreigners in the land

:)

but each to their own :)
This is only partly true. It is about Christ. But it is also full of things concerning this world.

some general examples.

1. 4 world empires. (has nothing to do with Christ)
2. Continual rebellion of the nation of Israel (has nothing to do with Christ)
3. God's dealing with a rebellious nation (nothing to do with Christ)
4. Gods commands for all people if they want to be blessed by God (Has to do with Christ on a belief manner. For without Christ. no one can be blessed)

there are many more examples I could use which prove the OT speaks of happening of this world. and not just Christ. It is a dangerous presumption to think the OT just concerns Christ and does not concern us as peoples of this world walking through this world.

Many OT prophesies have come true, exactly as God said they would. Many have yet to occur. We as Gods children should not presume they will not happen, or symbolize them away as not being literal events which will happen in time. For in doing so, we make God out to be a liar and a deceiver!.