A non-scriptural test. The futility of applying a Scriptural test.

[Scotth1960]

"The Nicene Creed"
"In order to safeguard the doctrine of Our Lord's divinity the Church Fathers formulated a non-scriptural test rather than apply a passage from Scripture. The Fathers at Nicea recognized the futility of applying a Scriptural test since the Arian exegetes had their own interpretation of the various passages which had bearing on Our Lord's divinity. In fact, as soon as a passage from Scripture which supported the divinity of Christ, a slew of "nods" and "winks" from the Arian side came forth, conveying the fact that they had their own interpretation." (pages 427-428: NOT BY SCRIPTURE ALONE: A Catholic Critique of the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scriptura. by Robert A. Sungenis. (1997). Santa Barbara, CA: Queenship Publishing Company.).

Roman Catholics aren't the only ones to believe sola Scriptura is false.
They believe also papal infallibility is true. Orthodox Christians do not believe papal infallibility is true. Because it is not true.
Eastern Orthodox Christians don't believe in papal infallibility. But they do believe that sola Scriptura is false. Because it is false.
God save us. In Erie Scott R. Harrington

 

[CanadaNZ]

Here is a question if scripture is not your ultimate authority, what is? I believe not is sola scriptura, but tota sola scripture, which means that I believe that everything should agree with scripture as a whole, this includes not only keeping verses in its direct context, but also in the context of the whole message of the bible. The scriptures have a completely consistent message and so if you have interpreted something that does not work with the bible as a whole you have it wrong.

 

[Scotth1960]

Here is a question if scripture is not your ultimate authority, what is? I believe not is sola scriptura, but tota sola scripture, which means that I believe that everything should agree with scripture as a whole, this includes not only keeping verses in its direct context, but also in the context of the whole message of the bible. The scriptures have a completely consistent message and so if you have interpreted something that does not work with the bible as a whole you have it wrong.

If scripture is your ultimate authority, it is your authority (private interpretation), that determines what the Bible means. It is possible to get the Bible wrong. Just having the Bible is not enough. We need to receive the Holy Spirit (John 16:13, Acts 2:38). Yes, of course, everything should agree with Scripture as a whole. But in Protestantism, does it agree with all of Scripture? No! Not at all! Only with the parts Protestants like to twist and misinterpret. Luther was left only not with Scripture alone but with "It is so because I, Dr. Martin Luther, say it is so." Please don't be like Luther. God save us. God save me. I have sinned and fallen far from the glory of God. God help me. God help and save all of us. Amen.

 

[Grandpa]

What nonsense. For true Christians, the bible is our instruction manual. We must follow the words that are in it. We can pray for wisdom and knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ and be guided by the Holy Spirit. The bible shows us how to do these things.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If scripture is your ultimate authority, it is your authority (private interpretation), that determines what the Bible means.

Your right. And when we stand in front of God on Judgement day. We will be judged based on how we interpreted His word to us. If we got it wrong, We suffer. If we Got it right. We are blessed.

This is better than leaving our eternal fate in the hands of any man. If they get it wrong. You followed them to eternal death because you refused to study for yourself.

It is possible to get the Bible wrong. Just having the Bible is not enough. We need to receive the Holy Spirit (John 16:13, Acts 2:38).

Once we are saved. We have the HS our self. Before we are saved. Scripture makes it clear. The things of God are FOOLISHNESS to those who are NOT HIS. No one can understand the Gospel without the conviction and teaching of the HS, And without an open mind. Any one can tell you the gospel. But the HS has to help you understand what it is, Then you have to believe it. To reject it is to call the HS a liar (disagree with God) which scripture calls Blasphemy and is the only unpardonable sin.

Once we are saved. We have been given the HS not only as a guarantee of our inheritance. But as a teacher and guide. This still does not mean we will listen to him 100 % of the time, and interpret all scripture right. But we still have him to teach us. As paul said, we need that no man teach us. They can help. but only through study and the word can we even know what they say is right themselves. Without Scripture as our Guide, we can easily be led astray. That why God gave it to us.

Yes, of course, everything should agree with Scripture as a whole. But in Protestantism, does it agree with all of Scripture?

Depends. there are many types of what you call protestant. Some believe much like you. Others believe nothing like you. You can't put everyone who does not agree with you under one category. there are far too many. What we do know as fact is that romanism (EO or Catholic) has many doctrines outside scripture and/or apposed to scripture. They can't even agree themselves

No! Not at all! Only with the parts Protestants like to twist and misinterpret. Luther was left only not with Scripture alone but with "It is so because I, Dr. Martin Luther, say it is so." Please don't be like Luther. God save us. God save me. I have sinned and fallen far from the glory of God. God help me. God help and save all of us. Amen.

I won't be like the pharisee. Who put himself above God. Who used history and the fathers to excuse their beliefs. Who tried to work to earn salvation, instead of receiving the gift Christ came to give them, and us all. In other words. I will not be Catholic or EO.

God came to save yuo. He is offering you a gift. He is asking you to take it. Not to work for it. If you have to work for it like you are. Then your trying under your own power to save yourself. And you will fail!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What nonsense. For true Christians, the bible is our instruction manual. We must follow the words that are in it. We can pray for wisdom and knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ and be guided by the Holy Spirit. The bible shows us how to do these things.

Shhh Grandpa. Satan don't want people to understand this. He wants them to listen to men and Not God.

Joking aside. Amen!! The Bible shows us all things. It is complete. God did not leave us with an unfinished book!

 

[CanadaNZ]

If scripture is your ultimate authority, it is your authority (private interpretation), that determines what the Bible means. It is possible to get the Bible wrong. Just having the Bible is not enough. We need to receive the Holy Spirit (John 16:13, Acts 2:38). Yes, of course, everything should agree with Scripture as a whole. But in Protestantism, does it agree with all of Scripture? No! Not at all! Only with the parts Protestants like to twist and misinterpret. Luther was left only not with Scripture alone but with "It is so because I, Dr. Martin Luther, say it is so." Please don't be like Luther. God save us. God save me. I have sinned and fallen far from the glory of God. God help me. God help and save all of us. Amen.

We have the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture fro us, working in our lives, changing us. Any twisting in protestantism has started with leaders and filtered down to their followers. So again I say Tota Sola Scriptura, check what your leaders are saying, there are churches all around the world in every denomination being led by well education non-christian theologians. Who cares what Luther said, he like every leader is human, exactly why you need God's Word, not human authority as you ultimate authority.

 

[Scotth1960]

Shhh Grandpa. Satan don't want people to understand this. He wants them to listen to men and Not God.

Joking aside. Amen!! The Bible shows us all things. It is complete. God did not leave us with an unfinished book!

All of you failed to understand the point of this. You think everything you need to know to understand the Bible is in the Bible itself. Well, who will tell you what the Bible is? How will you know which Bible to trust without the Church? How will you know what the Bible means, unless some man other than yourself guide you (Acts 8:30-31)? None of you have proven that the Bible teaches "by the Bible alone". You just assume it does because some man told you to believe it. You didn't read the Bible itself to find out whether or not Scripture teaches "sola scriptura".

 

[Scotth1960]

What nonsense. For true Christians, the bible is our instruction manual. We must follow the words that are in it. We can pray for wisdom and knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ and be guided by the Holy Spirit. The bible shows us how to do these things.

Grandpa. You totally miss the point. The Arians put a Bible test on everything. And they teach that Jesus Christ is not God. They teach he is the Son of God, but not God the Son. They use the Bible to "prove" it. In the wrong hands, the Scripture can be twisted to their own destruction of people who don't know the Holy Spirit. Of course the Bible is necessary. But not the Bible alone. Something more than a Bible test is needed. A Church test is needed,too, and a Tradition test, and a Holy Spirit test. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[jamie26301]

Grandpa. You totally miss the point. The Arians put a Bible test on everything. And they teach that Jesus Christ is not God. They teach he is the Son of God, but not God the Son. They use the Bible to "prove" it. In the wrong hands, the Scripture can be twisted to their own destruction of people who don't know the Holy Spirit. Of course the Bible is necessary. But not the Bible alone. Something more than a Bible test is needed. A Church test is needed,too, and a Tradition test, and a Holy Spirit test. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

What about the corruption in the church, which is often time there? In times past Catholics have sold random pieces of wood, claiming it was the cross of Christ! In times past, the church has kept money for herself and neglected the poor. You can't always trust the church.

The way to understand what Scripture says is to look at the culture context of the bible, and the orginial languages.

 

[Scotth1960]

What about the corruption in the church, which is often time there? In times past Catholics have sold random pieces of wood, claiming it was the cross of Christ! In times past, the church has kept money for herself and neglected the poor. You can't always trust the church.

The way to understand what Scripture says is to look at the culture context of the bible, and the orginial languages.

The church is not the pope, and the pope is not the church. The true Church is the Orthodox Catholic Church, which never believed in papal infallibility. The pope of Rome was once just another Patriarch among 5 Patriarchs. He started to get satanic delusions in his heart, and wanted to rule over his brethren like a god. That's where Catholicism started: the lies of the devil.
He even claimed the power to change the Scripture in John 15:26 and overrule our Lord Jesus Christ, declaring, with Thomas Aquinas, that believing in the papacy and papal infallibility and in the Filioque is necessary for salvation. Clear Anti-Christ propaganda.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All of you failed to understand the point of this. You think everything you need to know to understand the Bible is in the Bible itself.

I don't think Scott. I KNOW IT IS

Well, who will tell you what the Bible is?

As I said. God will. And he has.

How will you know which Bible to trust

I don't trust any of them.

without the Church?

Which Church? How can we know which church is correct without the word? Did Jesus use tradition and history to prove he was Christ? Did Paul use History and tradition to prove the churches he started and the gospel he taught was right? No They used Scripture. I will follow their lead. And not use the same excuses the jewish leaders used. as have many other religious leaders who call themselves Gods people.

How will you know what the Bible means, unless some man other than yourself guide you

How can I know what man is teaching truth? I can't without the word of God confirming what he is teaching is from God. All I have is one mans word against another. Scripture has self guidance. If you believe in something which contradicts, you know you have a problem with your interpretation. If you have an open mind and allow God to teach you will see this.

Following men has always been an issue. Paul scolded corinthian church for following men and Not God and his word. So why should I do what Paul scolded another church for?

None of you have proven that the Bible teaches "by the Bible alone".

We don't have to prove it. We will be held accountable for what we believe. No one else will take the blame if we get it wrong. On the other hand, if I blindly follow men. That man will not take the blame if he is wrong. I will suffer because I followed men and not the word of God. Your following men. You will suffer if your churhc is wrong. They will not be able to help you. Eternity is far to long for me to place my eternity in the hands of ANY MAN.

You just assume it does because some man told you to believe it.

No Scott. That is you. Your following men. I follow God and his word. I follow no man. I do not even trust my pastor 100 % I test everything he says with the word of God. To not do so would be not only foolish but dangerous.

[/quote]
You didn't read the Bible itself to find out whether or not Scripture teaches "sola scriptura".[/quote]

I don;t have to. God tells me through scripture that it is able to teach, rebuke, correct, in all areas. God did not leave his instruction manual incomplete. He finished it. He would not have spent a few thousand years putting it together just to leave it incomplete. Anyone who tells you otherwise is fooling you. and does not know truth.

 

[Scotth1960]

I don't think Scott. I KNOW IT IS



As I said. God will. And he has.



I don't trust any of them.



Which Church? How can we know which church is correct without the word? Did Jesus use tradition and history to prove he was Christ? Did Paul use History and tradition to prove the churches he started and the gospel he taught was right? No They used Scripture. I will follow their lead. And not use the same excuses the jewish leaders used. as have many other religious leaders who call themselves Gods people.


How can I know what man is teaching truth? I can't without the word of God confirming what he is teaching is from God. All I have is one mans word against another. Scripture has self guidance. If you believe in something which contradicts, you know you have a problem with your interpretation. If you have an open mind and allow God to teach you will see this.

Following men has always been an issue. Paul scolded corinthian church for following men and Not God and his word. So why should I do what Paul scolded another church for?



We don't have to prove it. We will be held accountable for what we believe. No one else will take the blame if we get it wrong. On the other hand, if I blindly follow men. That man will not take the blame if he is wrong. I will suffer because I followed men and not the word of God. Your following men. You will suffer if your churhc is wrong. They will not be able to help you. Eternity is far to long for me to place my eternity in the hands of ANY MAN.



No Scott. That is you. Your following men. I follow God and his word. I follow no man. I do not even trust my pastor 100 % I test everything he says with the word of God. To not do so would be not only foolish but dangerous.

You didn't read the Bible itself to find out whether or not Scripture teaches "sola scriptura".[/quote]

I don;t have to. God tells me through scripture that it is able to teach, rebuke, correct, in all areas. God did not leave his instruction manual incomplete. He finished it. He would not have spent a few thousand years putting it together just to leave it incomplete. Anyone who tells you otherwise is fooling you. and does not know truth.[/quote]
You ignore Acts 8:30-31. The Bible is just a book. A book cannot rebuke anyone. Only God can do that. Only God can determine what His own Book means (John 16:13). The Holy Spirit leads into all truth, in the Church (Matthew 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15). Protestantism sins against Ephesians chapter 4. Protestantism, and Papism, both believe in Rationalism and Individualism. Private interpretation of the Scriptures. The Bible does not teach private interpretation of the Bible. You are wrong: You do follow a man. Your own interpretation. You yourself have said it. So you don't see the hypocrisy of your position. You say you follow no man. But then you say your own interpretation is all you are responsible for. Well, you're a man. So, you do follow a man: your own private reading of the Bible. Anyone who teaches sola Scriptura is fooling others and does not know the Truth.
And does not believe 1 Tim. 3:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 3:6.
And believes that Matthew 16:18 is meaningless, but the Reformation is the Gospel.
More lies from the Great Deceiver!
Two errors:
Latinism (Papism)
Lutheranism (Protestantism).
Common source of error: Augustine of Hippo.

 

[CanadaNZ]

The church is not the pope, and the pope is not the church. The true Church is the Orthodox Catholic Church, which never believed in papal infallibility. The pope of Rome was once just another Patriarch among 5 Patriarchs. He started to get satanic delusions in his heart, and wanted to rule over his brethren like a god. That's where Catholicism started: the lies of the devil.
He even claimed the power to change the Scripture in John 15:26 and overrule our Lord Jesus Christ, declaring, with Thomas Aquinas, that believing in the papacy and papal infallibility and in the Filioque is necessary for salvation. Clear Anti-Christ propaganda.

Yes you don't believe in papal infallibility and neither do I, but you believe in the infallibility of the Orthodox Church and as such its leaders, current and past, or you wouldn't hold the Bible as such a low authority.

 

[Scotth1960]

I don't think Scott. I KNOW IT IS



As I said. God will. And he has.



I don't trust any of them.

Dear EG,
How can you say you don't trust any Bible, and then say you believe the Bible alone is what you go by?
You contradict even yourself!
In Erie PA Scott


Which Church? How can we know which church is correct without the word? Did Jesus use tradition and history to prove he was Christ? Did Paul use History and tradition to prove the churches he started and the gospel he taught was right? No They used Scripture. I will follow their lead. And not use the same excuses the jewish leaders used. as have many other religious leaders who call themselves Gods people.


How can I know what man is teaching truth? I can't without the word of God confirming what he is teaching is from God. All I have is one mans word against another. Scripture has self guidance. If you believe in something which contradicts, you know you have a problem with your interpretation. If you have an open mind and allow God to teach you will see this.

Following men has always been an issue. Paul scolded corinthian church for following men and Not God and his word. So why should I do what Paul scolded another church for?



We don't have to prove it. We will be held accountable for what we believe. No one else will take the blame if we get it wrong. On the other hand, if I blindly follow men. That man will not take the blame if he is wrong. I will suffer because I followed men and not the word of God. Your following men. You will suffer if your churhc is wrong. They will not be able to help you. Eternity is far to long for me to place my eternity in the hands of ANY MAN.



No Scott. That is you. Your following men. I follow God and his word. I follow no man. I do not even trust my pastor 100 % I test everything he says with the word of God. To not do so would be not only foolish but dangerous.

You didn't read the Bible itself to find out whether or not Scripture teaches "sola scriptura".[/quote]

I don;t have to. God tells me through scripture that it is able to teach, rebuke, correct, in all areas. God did not leave his instruction manual incomplete. He finished it. He would not have spent a few thousand years putting it together just to leave it incomplete. Anyone who tells you otherwise is fooling you. and does not know truth.[/quote]

 

[Scotth1960]

Yes you don't believe in papal infallibility and neither do I, but you believe in the infallibility of the Orthodox Church and as such its leaders, current and past, or you wouldn't hold the Bible as such a low authority.

I do not hold the Bible as such a low authority. I believe it because the Catholic Church tells me to believe it, and the Church (1 Tim. 3:15) wrote the Bible. This is more solid ground than private, individualistic interpretation of the Bible. In the end, all the Protestant is left with, for all his show-off of praise for the "Bible alone", is himself alone, telling himself in his own finite, rationalistic self-serving head, what the Bible says and means. Really weird! I know. I spent many years believing errors, and even now, I have to fight off prelest (spiritual self deception), and have to pray to God to deliver me from evil.
God save us.
The Bible is the authority for every Christian; it needs to be understood correctly, or it is falsely used and of no use to someone who misuses it.

 

[CanadaNZ]

I do not hold the Bible as such a low authority. I believe it because the Catholic Church tells me to believe it, and the Church (1 Tim. 3:15) wrote the Bible. This is more solid ground than private, individualistic interpretation of the Bible. In the end, all the Protestant is left with, for all his show-off of praise for the "Bible alone", is himself alone, telling himself in his own finite, rationalistic self-serving head, what the Bible says and means. Really weird! I know. I spent many years believing errors, and even now, I have to fight off prelest (spiritual self deception), and have to pray to God to deliver me from evil.
God save us.
The Bible is the authority for every Christian; it needs to be understood correctly, or it is falsely used and of no use to someone who misuses it.

I think we just see the balance differently. I believe that the bible is the ultimate authority and that the Holy Spirit helps us interpret it, but that does not mean I don't take input from Church authority, it just means that if what the church is teaching contradicts the bible as many "protestant" churches do I take the scripture in prayer over false teaching by those that are in church leadership. Again I wish those particularly in the Orthodox side of things would stop bad mouthing protestants as a whole and spent more time on biblical truth, if we can't stand together in truth, than we will fall against the evil and false teaching of this world.

 

[Scotth1960]

I think we just see the balance differently. I believe that the bible is the ultimate authority and that the Holy Spirit helps us interpret it, but that does not mean I don't take input from Church authority, it just means that if what the church is teaching contradicts the bible as many "protestant" churches do I take the scripture in prayer over false teaching by those that are in church leadership. Again I wish those particularly in the Orthodox side of things would stop bad mouthing protestants as a whole and spent more time on biblical truth, if we can't stand together in truth, than we will fall against the evil and false teaching of this world.

What you said makes no sense in the light of Matthew 16:18 and 1 Timothy 3:15. If the Church can err, the Bible can err, since the Bible said the Church will prevail against the gates of hell. I do not bad mouth protestants. I spend plenty of time on Biblical truth, which is why I reject Protestantism.
Anyone God wants to save will be saved, whether protestants, catholics, and yes, the members of the Orthodox Church.

 

[rose777]

hi i am new

 

[CanadaNZ]

What you said makes no sense in the light of Matthew 16:18 and 1 Timothy 3:15. If the Church can err, the Bible can err, since the Bible said the Church will prevail against the gates of hell. I do not bad mouth protestants. I spend plenty of time on Biblical truth, which is why I reject Protestantism.
Anyone God wants to save will be saved, whether protestants, catholics, and yes, the members of the Orthodox Church.

The church is the Body of Christ, which is all true believers NOT any one denomination. What you are saying is that you choice of denomination is true church and thus perfect. Which is not really any different from the Roman Catholic belief of papal infallibility, both claim that humans particular the leader(s) are perfect, which is anti-bibilical.