CREATION vs EVOLUTION: Faith vs Science

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.
K

kujo313

Guest
#61
WHY worry about how everything began? There's an empty seat in your church. That's one person per seat who's never heard the Gospel, the Good News of our Lord Jesus Christ. One more person who can be saved.

While you're debating, somebody may go to Hell today because you was here debating the beginning of the universe instead of preaching the Gospel.
 

cephas316

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2005
19
0
1
#62
"All major Christian doctrines have their source, directly or indirectly, in the book of Genesis. Preachers, missionaries and theologians who fail to see this have lost the foundation for what they teach. Conversely, those who do see this have the God-given proper basis for all their Christian witnessing, preaching, counseling, and teaching." - conclusion from : http://creation.com/genesisthe-seedbed-of-all-christian-doctrine

If we can't trust EVERYTHING in Genesis (esp the Creation account - eg: the earth came First -then the sun, moon and stars) then what basis do we have to trust the rest of Scripture? When do we then begin to trust Scripture? At Exodus? Ezekiel? John? Where? Maybe Jesus did not say we must preach the Gospel to all !! So the 6-day Creation Account IS important.
 

cephas316

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2005
19
0
1
#63
NON-EVOLUTION OF MAN:


I am so sick and tired of hearing evolutionists claim that we as humans have an ape as an ancestor. Frankly, given all the hoaxes that have been perpetrated in the last century or so, it's a wonder that anybody actually believes this rubbish. A few cases as examples:

1) Piltdown Man :

What was "discovered" : Part of a skull and later a jawbone
When : 1912
Later discovered (only in 1953 !!!) : Skull was from a modern human, jawbone and teeth from orangutan! The teeth had been filed down and chemically treated to more closely resemble human teeth.
Result :PILTDOWN MAN WAS A FAKE

2) Nebraska Man:


What was "discovered" : a tooth (!!) Claimed to be 1 million year old intermediate link
When : 1922
Later found to be : An extinct PIG'S TOOTH
Result : NEBRASKA MAN WAS A FAKE

3) Ramapithecus :


What was discovered: (1930's) : A jawbone - claimed to be 14 million year old intermediate between apes and humans.
Later found to be (1970) Baboon found in Ethiopia with exactly the same dental structure and other features as Ramapithecus.
Result :Ramapithecus was NEVER an Ancestor of humans ! (Even dropped from human line by evolutionists)

4) Neanderthal Man:


Neanderthal skeletons ARE NOT a hoax. They were TRUE HUMANS!!
Originally found in the 1800's, these skeletons were re-constructed to look ape-like ("they just had to be ape-like; they could not possibly be human, could they?!) It was later found that this construction was WRONG. Their brain capacity was a bit larger than some modern humans ( more intelligent :D ), but well within the range of modern humans (some people have big heads if they have large bodies - obviously!)
Their stocky build and protruding brow-ridges may have been due to harsh climatic conditions and malnutrition. I quote from Marvin L. Lubenow's Bones of Contention regarding the findings of Rudolf Virchow (1821-1902) who was a professor of pathology at the University of Berlin and known as the father of the science of pathology :

  • "...the original Neanderthal individual had been a normal human who suffered from rickets in childhood. Virchow's diagnosis has never been refuted. It was ignored in his day because by coincidence the Neanderthal morphology was what evolutionists believed a transition between primates and humans would look like."
Lubenow goes on to cite the fantastic qualifications of Virchow who knew a great deal about rickets (lack of vitamin D) since it was VERY prevalent at that time.
So why is rickets ignored? It is because we don't really get cases of this disease any more in western countries. Many doctors would not even recognise it if they saw it. Also, at that time, many other specimens (some fake such as Piltdown man etc) were regarded as proof of human evolution, so why not Neanderthal as well? Of course, with the publication of Darwin's book and after, things became set in stone.
A few facts about Neanderthals:
- they played musical instruments
- they buried their dead
- they did cave paintings
- they wore jewelry
- they could speak
Result: Neanderthals were FULLY HUMAN; They just lived an isolated life in a harsh climate.

5) LUCY

What was found : (1974) about 40% of the skeleton - claimed to be 3.5 million years old and that it walked upright
On investigation, one finds:
- Contrary to DRAWINGS of Lucy which are artists' IMAGINATION, the skeleton is NOT similar in appearance to humans.
- The brain capacity overlaps that of chimpanzees
- The hands are similar to that of the pygmy chimpanzee
- Jaws, upper leg bone and long arms similar to chimpanzees
- Rib cage is that of an ape - NOT human

Conclusion - Features of an ape + More features of an ape + more features of an ape DO NOT A HUMAN ANCESTOR MAKE!
 

cephas316

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2005
19
0
1
#64
The “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution” Myth: An Empirical Study and Evaluation :
http://trueorigin.org/biologymyth.asp

(From a guy with multiple degrees : check out the appendix to his article regarding the evolution content of the graduate and undergraduate courses he did)
 
S

Slepsog4

Guest
#65
Kujo313,

You are a hypocrite. You come on here arguing against those who are arguing. You complain that souls may be lost while this is going on, yet what about the ones you are missing while reading and writing on here.
 
K

Knightjester

Guest
#66
I just thought that Science cannot be ignored in this matter.
 
Jan 31, 2009
2,225
11
0
#67
Nature can create fascinating patterns - snowflakes,
sand dunes, crystals, stalagmites and stalactites. Tornados
and turbulence and cloud formations.

quote]
Shouldn't we give God credit for creating even the snowflakes, sand dunes, crystals stalagmites ans stalactites, tornados and turbulence and Clouds formations,

Joh 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Joh 1:2The same was in the beginning with God.Joh 1:3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Job 37:6For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.
Job 38:28Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
 
Jan 31, 2009
2,225
11
0
#68
WHY worry about how everything began? There's an empty seat in your church. That's one person per seat who's never heard the Gospel, the Good News of our Lord Jesus Christ. One more person who can be saved.

While you're debating, somebody may go to Hell today because you was here debating the beginning of the universe instead of preaching the Gospel.


hey KUJO when you point a finger at someone look real close at your hand, there are three fingers pointing back at yourself.
1ti 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;1ti 4:2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;1ti 4:3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.1ti 4:4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:1ti 4:5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.1ti 4:6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
 
Jan 31, 2009
2,225
11
0
#69
I heard of one big bang theory that Chraistians can believe in, "God said let there be, and bang, it was"
 
May 3, 2009
246
2
0
#70
I remember posting a couple of weeks ago with regard to how Augustine treated possible conflicts with science in his day and Faith.What he recommended is apropos here.
What are we required to believe about how God created? What should we reject? Apostolic Christians need to affirm all that the Church teaches as matters of faith and morals. We share with other supernaturalists a rejection of pure naturalism, and we believe that the origin of the universe comes from the free will of God. The Church believes Genesis teaches us this truth about the origin of the world because the Bible is God's infallible revelation. But affirming the Bible does not require rejecting all secular science as ungodly. If we take Genesis chapters 1 and 2 seriously, are we required to believe that God made the world in six twenty-four hour days, even if scientific research tends to indicate otherwise?

Hence, this is a situation where Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo, should be studied. He offers wisdom for guidance. He was familiar with the science of his day and offered valuable advice for Christians facing a non-Christian world with its ideas about nature. .

Augustine, bishop of Hippo from 395 to his death in 430, wrote commentaries on the Genesis creation narratives five times in his life. His fourth and most important was the Literal Com ment ary on Genesis and it is here that Augustine gives his greatest advice on how to deal with the Bible and its relation to nature. His final attempt, probably written around the same time as the Literal Commentary appears in books 30 to 33 in the City of God.

Why did Augustine spend so much time on the Genesis creation narratives? Augustine encountering different philosophies of his day. These belief systems left a deep impression on him, and he was convinced later that he had to defend the Christian faith against them. He produced some of the most powerful arguments ever offered in defense of God's creation.

Augustine felt that the most dangerous philosophy of his day was Manichaeanism, a system he adhered to prior to his conversion. As he tells us, the Manichees criticized Genesis as cleverly spun tales that had no rational (scientific) value. They derided a God who would need six days to create the world and castigated the same God for creating man in his image. The Manichees often asked questions designed to show the folly of believing Genesis to be true. If man is made in God's image, does God have arms and legs? If God created at a moment of time, what was he doing before he created?

Augustine was convinced that two of the most powerful tools in combating false science were reason and sense experience. . Augustine never used the term "science" in its modern sense nor did any other ancient writer, Christian or pagan. This was not because there was no science in antiquity but because it was called natural philosophy. Natural philosophy, up until the nineteenth century generally, meant the knowledge of a specific science and the philosophy of nature implied by that knowledge.

Augustine's first guideline is to recognize the purpose of Scripture. Human language is imprecise. To understand what someone is telling us, we must hear the words and discern the person's intention. The Bible is a special case because it has human authors but behind each one there is a divine author, the Holy Spirit. When we read the Bible, we want to know both the human and divine authors' intentions. The divine intention or purpose of Scripture may be discerned from the language used in a biblical text.

The purpose of the Bible is redemptive, said Augustine. God gave us the Bible to instruct us in the knowledge of salvation, not science. In his Literal Commentary Augustine asked what Scripture teaches about the shape or the form of the heavens, a topic that many ancient writers addressed. Are the heavens spherical or flat like a disc? Or, does it matter? He responded: "Many scholars engage in lengthy discussion on these matters, but the sacred writers with their deeper wisdom have omittedthem. Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek beatitude, and, what is worse, they take up very precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial." Augustine did not think that natural knowledge was worthless, only that it was inferior to knowledge of God, who made nature. Augustine was simply saying that the biblical authors were not giving a definitive theory of the heavens in a scientific fashion.

Augustine warned against a danger among Christians of his day and ours. If the Christian insists on a certain scientific theory as if it were the teaching of the Bi ble, and it turned out to be wrong, then the unbeliever will reject the Bible wholesale and miss the saving purpose God has in composing it. This danger is so real that Augustine emphasized it a number of times in his writings. Unreliable knowledge of nature is not ****ing but it can be a stumbling block "if he thinks his view of nature is grounded in orthodox christian doctrine, and dares obstinately to affirm something he does not understand." In this case, the Christian's lack of true knowledge becomes an obstacle to the unbeliever's embracing the truth of the gospel. The great harm, is that "people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions and . . . the writers of Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men."

Christians sometimes make themselves obstacles to the salvation of others rather than instruments of it. They do so when they equate a scientific theory with the meaning of the Bible. Augustine was well aware of this danger already in the fifth century. The situation is unchanged today, 1600 years after Augustine wrote. His solution is humility both in the interpretation of nature and the interpretation of Scripture. By recognizing that the Bible is more about "the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven" than it is about "the motion and orbit of the stars, their size and relative positions, and the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon." He warns against self- imposed authorities in biblical interpretation: "Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books."

Is there nothing then in Scripture that bears on science? Augustine did not think that the Bible was irrelevant to nature. That would be to divide truth, and for Augustine truth is one. His second guideline is to recognize the harmony between natural knowledge and scriptural knowledge. Science and interpretation do not teach the same subjects, but neither do they contradict one another. You will find not physics in the Bible. Scripture says nothing about vectors and atoms. Nor does physics teach us about the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ.

But suppose a biologist says that the only explanation for the origin of cells is spontaneous generation, that is, origin without any previous cause. The Christian immediately knows that something wrong. Such a view contradicts the statements of Genesis that all things have their origin from God. Even if we interpret the chaos and formlessness (in Hebrew tohu and bohu) of Genesis 1:2 as a primordial soup, verse one still affirms that the primordial soup came from God ("In the beginning God created the heavens and earth"). What should we do?

The Literal Commentary advises a two-step procedure. First, we must evaluate whether the scientific claim has any validity. This must be done by the methods of science, empirical observation and theoretical reasoning. It is not enough to quote the Bible against a scientific theory. If we are unsure about the conclusion, we can consider it false. "The truth is rather in what God reveals than in what groping men surmise." This would be true in the case of spontaneous generation. It is a very different claim from those made about the structure of cells. Cell structures can be verified and tested. Spontaneous generation cannot be verified. And science cannot make statements about what cannot be, only about what is. So, Augustine would say that we can regard spontaneous generation as false unless someone can verify it.

Suppose someone says that the earth is no more than ten thousand years old. Again, we should test this claim by the means that science has at its disposal. For well over a hundred years historical geology has developed tests to show that the earth must be far older than ten thousand years. These tests are cross-checked and rechecked to make sure the time estimates are not flawed. Now what should we do? Shall we insist that the Bible teaches that the earth is no more than ten thousand years old? Could it be that our interpretation is wrong? Augustine advises the second step: "But if they are able to establish their doctrine with proofs that cannot be denied, we must show that this statement of Scripture . . . is not opposed to the truth of their conclusions." He urges us to change our interpretation of Scripture, not because Scripture is to be ruled by science, but because no two truths made by God will contradict one another. All truth comes from God, whether discovered by science or by the Church in its interpretation of Scripture. The first question we must ask is whether a particular scientific theory is well-founded. If it is, then we must make sure we don't read the Bible in a manner that contradicts sound knowledge of nature.

The most striking feature of Augustine's commentaries on Genesis is his lack of firm conclusions. He offered different ways of reading the text but made few of them binding on his readers. How did he know when his reading was acceptable, and how can we know how to read Genesis properly? The Apostolic Church has been guided by Augustine's wisdom because it has never definitively ruled on how Genesis should be read.

Yet Augustine's interpretations were not open-ended. He suggested the following procedure that applies to Genesis as well as any other biblical text. He said that we first should seek to expound the author's meaning according to the historical or literal sense. The literal sense for Augustine is the sense the words bear in their original historical-linguistic context. If we are unable to agree on the author's meaning, we at least should interpret Scripture according to the wider context of the Bible as a whole. We should make sure that our interpretations of a particular text are consistent with what the Bible says elsewhere. If this proves difficult, we must interpret the Bible within the boundaries of the Apostolic faith. Augustine directs this advice against those who rashly assert the meaning of the Bible on uncertain and doubtful matters. It is better to be humble than to proclaim boldly opinions on Scripture that might be wrong. The key to Augustine's approach to the Bible lies in his willingness to read the Bible with the Church.

How does Augustine's wisdom guide us in our present situation? Application of his principles can be seen in one of the most misunderstood episodes in the history of science and religion, the Galileo Affair. Augustine's Literal Commentary played a key role in Galileo's many-sided interactions with the Church. Galileo's Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina, written in 1615, appealed to Augustine's authority by arguing that Scripture was intended to lead us to salvation, not to give us theories of natural science. But Galileo recognized that the Church was under no obligation to endorse the heliocentric theory of the universe unless he or someone else could provide proof of its truth. Galileo fully believed in the truth of the Copernican theory, but he did not have sufficient proof of its truth in 1616, when the Church's Congregation of the Index ruled on the matter.

The Church, represented by Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, also recognized the saving purpose of Scripture. Bellarmine said that if the Church had in its possession proof of the truth of the new astronomy, it would have to refrain from any judgment. But that proof was lacking by the standards of the day. The Church hierarchy would not have ruled on the question at all had Galileo and others not tried to offer a theological defense of the theory. When the Congregation of the Index issued its decision, it did not totally condemn the heliocentric theory. It simply said that Copernicus' book was forbidden "until corrected." It condemned totally two other books that gave theological defenses of the new theory because they claimed that a moving earth was compatible with Scripture. Since there was no proof that the earth was moving in the early seventeenth century, Church officials thought it rash to defend that notion without sufficient proof.

How does this example help us today? The Church recognizes that it is called to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ in matters of faith and morals, not to rule on the validity of scientific theories. The latter judgment must be left to the scientific community. Yet, scientists sometimes make claims that their theories imply a certain philosophy of life. Carl Sagan, for example, often espoused a materialist and naturalist philosophy, claiming that it grew out of modern science. A materialist philosophy is incompatible with Genesis and Christian belief. The Church is called not only to teach the truth of the gospel but to warn the faithful against philosophies that are not consistent with the gospel. When the Church is uncertain about a scientific claim, it can ask for proof for these claims. When proof according to some measure is forthcoming, the Church must weigh this proof in the light of its total mission to articulate the truth. If proof is not forthcoming, the Church rightly can withhold judgment.

Augustine was not afraid of knowledge from any direction because he knew the Source of all truth. He was open to all truth from any direction. The God who made nature also inspired Scripture and never would contradict himself. Christians can be sure that God's truth in nature does not contradict God's truth in Scripture.
 
W

worldlover

Guest
#71
science just explains the perfect creations of GOD. before they'll find out how did that happen, GOD knew it before we existed
 
M

mcap

Guest
#72
While watching a show yesterday they were discussing this same thing.I cannot remember the mans name but he stated that the chances one cell could change just by the theory of evolution was 1 in multimillions.He said microevolution was possible,but that Darwins theory of macroevolution was impossible.We had to have been made by someone,and that someone was very,very smart.
 
May 3, 2009
246
2
0
#73
Even if one dares to suggest that there are missing generations in the Genesis accounts, 10 times would not get us to a number needed by evolutionists.
Indeed. So, you then infer that the evolutionists are off-base? Not, that the genealogies are full of bunk?

ROTFL

You, my friend, are rather gullible.

:)
 
N

nightfield

Guest
#74
I completely believe in evolution. There is no way that the earth is only 8,000 years old. No, I am not an athiest, but some of you guys are completely looney, with your ideas of the earth being only 8,000 years old.
 
K

kujo313

Guest
#75
[/size]

hey KUJO when you point a finger at someone look real close at your hand, there are three fingers pointing back at yourself.
1ti 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;1ti 4:2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;1ti 4:3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.1ti 4:4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:1ti 4:5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.1ti 4:6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Sorry. I'm just not posting anything here nor am I joining in this topic. Let the "brainiacs" do all that. Meanwhile, there's a job to do.
 
C

callthe5o

Guest
#76
well, if you think about it, the big bang theory could've been possible, because everything did just pop up into existance, for God created the heavens and earth out of pure awesomeness, and pretty fast. for example, if a man walks through the woods and sees a watch on the floor, did it just appear there? nope. its impossible. there must be a creator that made it possible for it to be there. but that's just my opinion. GBU ALL! XD
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#77
well, if you think about it, the big bang theory could've been possible, because everything did just pop up into existance, for God created the heavens and earth out of pure awesomeness, and pretty fast. for example, if a man walks through the woods and sees a watch on the floor, did it just appear there? nope. its impossible. there must be a creator that made it possible for it to be there. but that's just my opinion. GBU ALL! XD
The Big Bang theory and the Biblical account of Creation are completely incompatible, you can read through the thread to find good examples from various members why this is so.
 
Dec 23, 2009
7
0
0
#78
UGH
It's not Faith vs Science, because Evolutionism has way more faith that Creation does.

It's a battle of worldviews
I have a worldview, you have a worldview. Our worldviews are made up of presuppositions that we all have in order to make sense of the world around us.

When I became a Christian, my worldview became the Word of God is the Ultimate Authority. When I was an evolutionist, my authority was man's humanistic reasoning.

Evidence is good, it has it's place, but it is not the ultimate proof of creation or evolutionism. Everyone will make a rescuing device in order to save their worldview. Christians do it, Evolutionists do it as well

To those who are evolutionists, answer me these:

Give me a logical reason, based on your worldview for:
Absolute morality
Laws of Logic
uniformity of nature
reliability of senses
ability to argue

an answer that isn't logically arbitrary
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
#79
UGH
It's not Faith vs Science, because Evolutionism has way more faith that Creation does.

It's a battle of worldviews
I have a worldview, you have a worldview. Our worldviews are made up of presuppositions that we all have in order to make sense of the world around us.

When I became a Christian, my worldview became the Word of God is the Ultimate Authority. When I was an evolutionist, my authority was man's humanistic reasoning.

Evidence is good, it has it's place, but it is not the ultimate proof of creation or evolutionism. Everyone will make a rescuing device in order to save their worldview. Christians do it, Evolutionists do it as well

To those who are evolutionists, answer me these:

Give me a logical reason, based on your worldview for:
Absolute morality
Laws of Logic
uniformity of nature
reliability of senses
ability to argue

an answer that isn't logically arbitrary
Sir, you are very welcome:D

love the sig:D
 
Oct 1, 2009
296
3
0
#80
I agree, very well said, I remember reading I think it was answers in Genesis, that the reason why evolutionists and creationists couldn't get along wasn't because of evidence or lack of it. It has to do with your worldview. In other words, what you believe in before you gather evidence is what you'll build up. Which is why for us it is so obvious that God did it and for them it's so obvious that evolution did it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.