Catholic and Calvinist Allegorization of Revelation 20: 1-8 and Revelation 7 and 14

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texian

Guest
#1
Catholic and Calvinist Allegorization of Revelation 20: 1-8 and Revelation 7 and 14

Dispensationalists believe that following the tribulation there will be a literal thousand year reign of Christ on earth in a fulfillment of the Jewish kingdom of their prophecy into which Gentiles will be allowed, as kind of second class citizens. But the historical premillennialists also thought that Christ would rule on earth for a thousand years following the tribulation period. Perhaps they did not all think the thousand years was a literal period. But they did not hold to anything like a pre-tribulation rapture. And they did not teach that physical Israel remains the chosen people. This was all before the time of Origen (184-253 A.D.). Before Origen, Ireneaus [140-203], Justin Martyr [100-165], and Papias [80-155]) were, for example, historical premillennialists.

Origen made use of broad allegory in interpreting Scripture, and Augustine followed his lead, saying the thousand year reign of Christ in Revelation 20: 1-8 is an allegory of all the "church" age. Catholics and traditional Calvinists do the same and also say the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 are merely the saved people of the entire "church age.".

But Origen was part of the Alexandarian school of the 3rd century, and was influenced by Greek philosophy, especially Plato,and the Platonist Philio of Alexandria. Some say that while Origen opposed the Gnosticism of Alexandria, he also saw value in it.

So Origen the follower of Plato and maybe to some extent of Gnosticism, developed a systematic theology which tended to be more abstract that the theology taught by the successors of the Apostles in Antioch, Syria. This tendency toward the abstract thinking of Greek philosophy and of Gnosticism - which is not exactly the way of Christ and his apostles - is what led Origen to allegorize scripture the way he did, and to influence Augustine to allegorize.

The Catholic Church took up the allegorization method of Origen and made Revelation 20: 1-8 into an allegory of the entire church age, rejecting this text as prophecy. The Church also allegorized away the 144,000 into all those of all ages who are saved. Most of Calvinism followed the Catholic Church on Revelation 20: 1-8 and Revelation 7 and 14, rejecting these two texts as prophecy.

Just because the dispensationalists have made use of a literal thousand year reign of Christ on earth with his saints following their tribulation period, does not necessarily mean that the Catholic and Calvinist allegorization of Revelation 20: 1-8 and Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5 (on the 144,000) is true. It can be seen that dispensationalism does not agree with scripture on its basic starting postulations - that "All Israel" remain now as God's chosen people, and that the Catholic and dispensationalist "church" is a body of Christ different from "All Israel." So, dispensationlaism has a big problem with what the New Testament teaches. But many of the early church Fathers, as historical premillennialists, believed in a reign of Christ on earth, in the physical creation, following the tribulation - but did not believe in a pre-trib rapture, nor in Jewish supremacy.

This allegorization of the 144,000 deprives them of their ministry. Daniel 11: 33, "they that understand among the people shall instruct many" can be applied to the ministry of the Remnant as well as the 144,000 in the very last days. But except for Daniel 9: 24-27, Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, the "church" generally won't consider anything in Daniel as being relevant to end time prophecy. For most of the "church" the 144,000 are all male Jewish virgins or they don't exist for Calvinists as an end time group.

The six, seven, eight cycle of Revelation 17: 11 and Genesis 1: 26 on the creation of man on the sixth day predicts a time of rest in the Lord, which would be the seventh period following the sixth period. This is not a theory of dispensations. Man's number is six, and the period of man for those who are born again in Christ must end and the seventh time will fully begin. The seventh is the rest in God. For those born again in Christ there will be a rest following the number six period of man - the "church" period - in some form. We will live in a place where Christ is present and we will see him face to face (I John 3: 2, I Corinthians 13: 12)..

Hebrews 3: 11, 18, and 4: 1-11 speak of the rest of God, which is a fulfillment of God's rest, number seven, for the saints, Israel reborn in Jesus Christ.

Could not this fulfillment of the rest of God take place within the creation, or in the new heavens and new earth of Revelation 21: 1?

There are details in Revelation 20: 1-8 which do not seem to fit the literal interpretation, that the text refers to a time when Christ will reign on earth with his saints, such as allowing Satan to be loosed from his prison after the millennium ends, (verse 7) and the mention of Gog and Magog in verse 8. These details do not agree either with the view that the millennium refers just to the entire "church" age. Its a difficult text, but these details cannot just be ignored. But in verse 10 the devil is said to be cast into the lake of fire, which is the end of his activity against the people of God.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#2
For those born again in Christ there will be a rest following the number six period of man - the "church" period - in some form. We will live in a place where Christ is present and we will see him face to face (I John 3: 2, I Corinthians 13: 12)..

Hebrews 3: 11, 18, and 4: 1-11 speak of the rest of God, which is a fulfillment of God's rest, number seven, for the saints, Israel reborn in Jesus Christ.

Could not this fulfillment of the rest of God take place within the creation, or in the new heavens and new earth of Revelation 21: 1?
Hebrews 9:26
Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 4
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”b

And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.”c 5And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10foranyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

~

Isaiah 28:12
to whom he has said, “This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose”; yet they would not hear.

Jeremiah 6:16
This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Matthew 11:28
Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

~

Hebrews 4:3
New International Version(©1984)
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world.

New Living Translation(©2007)
For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, "In my anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter my place of rest,'" even though this rest has been ready since he made the world.

English Standard Version(©2001)
For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

New American Standard Bible(©1995)
For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

International Standard Version(©2008)
We who have believed are entering that rest, just as he has said, "So in my anger I swore a solemn oath that they would never enter my rest," even though his works had been finished since the creation of the world.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But we who believe enter into rest, but just as he said, “As I swore in my anger, they shall not enter my rest.” For behold, the works of God have existed from the foundation of the world,

GOD'S WORD® Translation(©1995)
We who believe are entering that place of rest. As God said, "So I angrily took a solemn oath that they would never enter my place of rest." God said this even though he had finished his work when he created the world.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For we who have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

American King James Version
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

American Standard Version
For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Bible in Basic English
For those of us who have belief come into his rest; even as he has said, As I said in my oath when I was angry, They may not come into my rest: though the works were done from the time of the making of the world.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For we, who have believed, shall enter into rest; as he said: As I have sworn in my wrath; If they shall enter into my rest; and this indeed when the works from the foundation of the world were finished.

Darby Bible Translation
For we enter into the rest who have believed; as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, If they shall enter into my rest; although the works had been completed from the foundation of the world.

English Revised Version
For we which have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Webster's Bible Translation
For we who have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Weymouth New Testament
We who have believed are soon to be admitted to the true rest; as He has said, "As I swore in My anger, they shall not be admitted to My rest," although God's works had been going on ever since the creation of the world.

World English Bible
For we who have believed do enter into that rest, even as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, they will not enter into my rest;" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Young's Literal Translation
for we do enter into the rest -- we who did believe, as He said, 'So I sware in My anger, If they shall enter into My rest -- ;' and yet the works were done from the foundation of the world,
 
T

texian

Guest
#3
Re: Catholic and Calvinist Allegorization of Revelation 20: 1-8 and Revelation 7 and

When I first became a Christian I began to read the books of Francis Schaeffer. I read almost all of them, and corresponded with him briefly when he was still in Switzerland, before he died. Schaeffer was Reformed, but I do not remember anything in his books about Five Point Calvinism. He was not a dispensationalist, but I don't remember him being critical of dispensationalism. He is said to have been historical premillennialist, but again, I don't remember him writing about that. Schaeffer belonged to a small Reformed denomination, the Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod which I think became the Presbyterian Church in America. During his lifetime, the falling away had not become as evident as it is now. His last book was The Great Evangelical Disaster (1984). Schaeffer was concerned that evangelicals were no longer standing up for the truth, and that Christianity had lost much of its influence upon the world, which says in the words of Daniel 12: 7 that the power of the holy people had by 1984 been scattered. The spiritual power of Christians had been reduced, and had Schaeffer been younger (he was born in 1912), he might by now understand that the great number of English translations of the Bible, almost entirely based on the Alexandarian or Egyptian Greek texts, meant to replace the Textus Receptus, has been one cause of this, along with the almost complete takeover of the Evangelical church by the dispensationalists.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#4
When I first became a Christian I began to read the books of Francis Schaeffer. I read almost all of them, and corresponded with him briefly when he was still in Switzerland, before he died. Schaeffer was Reformed, but I do not remember anything in his books about Five Point Calvinism. He was not a dispensationalist, but I don't remember him being critical of dispensationalism. He is said to have been historical premillennialist, but again, I don't remember him writing about that. Schaeffer belonged to a small Reformed denomination, the Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod which I think became the Presbyterian Church in America. During his lifetime, the falling away had not become as evident as it is now. His last book was The Great Evangelical Disaster (1984). Schaeffer was concerned that evangelicals were no longer standing up for the truth, and that Christianity had lost much of its influence upon the world, which says in the words of Daniel 12: 7 that the power of the holy people had by 1984 been scattered. The spiritual power of Christians had been reduced, and had Schaeffer been younger (he was born in 1912), he might by now understand that the great number of English translations of the Bible, almost entirely based on the Alexandarian or Egyptian Greek texts, meant to replace the Textus Receptus, has been one cause of this, along with the almost complete takeover of the Evangelical church by the dispensationalists.



Charles Spurgeon was also a Historical Premillennialist who rejected Amillennial doctrine as well.

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#5
Charles Spurgeon was also a Historical Premillennialist who rejected Amillennial doctrine as well.
"There does not appear any greater evil in the disputes concerning matters of religion, than the persuading ourselves that our salvation or God's glory are lost by every little difference. As for me, I exhort my scholars, not only to distinguish between the true and the false according to Scripture, but also between the essential articles of faith, and the less essential articles, by the same Scripture." - Jacob Arminius

was Spurgeon Arminian, as well?

Arminius ultimately failed to have a true theology of grace. For Arminius grace is essential and grace is necessary, but God's grace is not absolutely efficacious. Man's response to grace remains the final, decisive factor in salvation. Jesus is no longer the actual Savior of His people. He becomes the one who makes salvation possible. Man's contribution, however sincerely Arminius tried to limit it, became central for salvation.

Arminius also gave faith a different place in his system from the role that faith had occupied in earlier Reformed theology. Arminius taught that faith itself was imputed to the sinner for righteousness, whereas the earlier teaching had stressed that it was the object of faith, namely Christ and His righteousness, that was imputed to the sinner. This shift is important because again it shifts the primary focus of salvation from God's work in Christ to man's faith. Arminius can even speak of faith being the one work required of man in the New Covenant. This kind of teaching led to Gomarus' charge that Arminius was undermining the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith. Arminius' teaching turns faith from an instrument that rests on the work of Christ to a work of man, and tends to change faith from that which receives the righteousness of Christ to that which is righteousness itself.

Who Was Arminius?