Gifts

[Baptistrw]

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit...
Not necessarily tongues in that verse. Praying with the Spirit is praying with God's guidance. Not tongues. If he meant praying in tongues, he'd have written that. The apostle is not in the habbit of improperly expressing himself

Besides which, the Apostle speaks here of himself personally. I have no problem believing that He had the gift. Scripture says it. But I do have problems believing the modern use of them is Biblical considering that my belief is that Scripture in chapter 13 (a prophecy that was fulfilled after 14) states it shall/did cease.

It was not receiving the Spirit that caused the tongues but the purpose of God in those specific cases to cause them to identify themselves as saved by the use of tongues as divine evidence and to demonstrate the authenticity to those around them. For example, the Gentiles speaking with tongues had the purpose of confirming God's grace had been extended to them also, which many apostles found difficult to digest at the time. But because of God's authenticity they accepted it.

And this still happens today when people receive the gift of the Spirit they may speak in tongues...
No offence intended, but so claim some Buddhists and Roman Catholics. That doesn't mean they are Christians at all. It just means they believe they speak in tongues. There is no proof that it is of God in those circumstances and my knowledge of 'Christian' tongue usetoday leads me to put them in the same category. Most actually go through tongue schooling in the church before they can do it "properly".
As an aside, I have seen an example of a person claiming to speak in tongues and the interpreter saying he was praising God... only to have a visiting missionary walk out of the service shaking and shocked because he did happen to speak the language and recognised the man was cursing God. All the while the interpreter said he was praising God. There are many examples of demonic use of it just like that. Google it. If Satan can posess a girl wth a demon and use her to tell the future (as in the New Testament), then I see no reason he can't misuse tongues too.



But the tongues Paul is speaking about in the church setting in 1 Cor requires interpretation for it to be of value for the church. Yet no one was calling for an interpreter at pentecost in Acts 2.
Just because they had the gift didn't mean they couldn't abuse it. The book of Corinthians is all about rebuking and correcting those with the gift who were doing exactly that. Sinning with their gift of tongues. In the case of Acts 2 the hearers already spoke the languages the Apostles were preaching in.

If you want to use the restricted due to abuse form of tongues in your Church as evidence of salvation then that is up to you. But to my understanding the gift in Corinthians was nothing more than the authentic gift as used in Acts 2 (to people who already understood and so required no interpretation) but that was being deliberately abused by those who had been blessed with it. Christians sin too and do abuse what they have been blessed with.

So I think they are similar but two different things...
They are similar. They are in fact identical. One used properly, and the other abused to the point of requiring correction and restrictions imposed by an apostle.

Amen. Tongues disappeared from church history, and the only ones who spoke in tongues were branded heretics, e.g. Montanus. Something to take into consideration.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Amen. Tongues disappeared from church history, and the only ones who spoke in tongues were branded heretics, e.g. Montanus. Something to take into consideration.

Absurd, no gift has been taken away from God's people.

1st Cor 1:6-8
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Baptistrw]

Research church history before making such a statement. See the book Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur, he documents the history of the modern charismatic movement well.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Research church history before making such a statement. See the book Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur, he documents the history of the modern charismatic movement well.

I would rather research scripture through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Give one scripture that would cause anyone to believe that any gift has been removed much less tongues.

 

[Baptistrw]

I would rather research scripture through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Give one scripture that would cause anyone to believe that any gift has been removed much less tongues.

I don't know that your issue is, but you are always trying to pick a fight with someone over something. If your goal is to reflect the love of Christ, you sure don't do a very good job at it. John 13:35 and I Corinthians 13:2 are a couple scriptures you should read and apply.

 

[NoahsDad]

Besides which, the Apostle speaks here of himself personally. I have no problem believing that He had the gift. Scripture says it. But I do have problems believing the modern use of them is Biblical considering that my belief is that Scripture in chapter 13 (a prophecy that was fulfilled after 14) states it shall/did cease.
You are leaving out (ONCE AGAIN )alot of a whole chapter as usual to prove a point that cant otherwise be proven

if persay you are correct and the verse is stating as you say that the gifts are done away with
As stated in your post, Then wha about what the rest of the chapter from begining to end is it ALL done away with?
.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Like here ,whether there be knowledge,Is knowledge doen away with aswell? its part of the same verse,you cant pull out a piece of a verse to back up what you've been taught as truth without researching it further.Try harder
HOLLA!

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I don't know that your issue is, but you are always trying to pick a fight with someone over something. If your goal is to reflect the love of Christ, you sure don't do a very good job at it. John 13:35 and I Corinthians 13:2 are a couple scriptures you should read and apply.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
1st Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Neither of these verses say tongues are no longer is use or that any gift has been removed. As far as the love of Christ, He was very forceful to people perverting God's word, and I would suspect that He would not appreciate people telling other believers they can no longer access the gifts that God wants them to receive.

 

[Baptistrw]

I have my views on the matter, you have yours. And I have reasons why I believe what I believe. Get over it.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I have my views on the matter, you have yours. And I have reasons why I believe what I believe. Get over it.

O.K. I am curious what scripture causes you to believe that tongues or any other gift of the Spirit have been taken from us as believers?

 

[Baptistrw]

In 1Co 13:13 we read, "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." Concerning "charity" Paul had already said, "Charity never faileth" (1Co 13:8). The word "abideth" means to "remain" or "continue." When Paul said that prophecies would "fail" and special knowledge by revelation would "vanish away," he used a Greek word that meant to be "abolished" or "cease." He did not mean that the prophecies would fail to come to pass or be true, but that the gift of prophecy would cease in the church.

The fact that charity (love of God) is the only gift that will never fail, tells us that there will be a time in which all of the gifts are in existence. There will be another time when the three; faith, hope and charity are in existence. Then finally when charity by itself will be in existence. The Charismatics that I have spoken with tell me that all the gifts are still in existence until Jesus returns, but there is a problem with that position, for when is the time of faith, hope and charity? When Jesus returns for me I will not need faith and hope. This is proven by the definitions that the Bible gives concerning both of these gifts. Concerning faith, we read in the book of Hebrews, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb 11:1). When Jesus comes, I will see him for myself and will no longer need to see Him through the eyes of faith. I realize that it may be argued that the disciples had faith when they were with Christ at His first coming; but at that time he came as a humble servant and many, especially the religious leaders of Israel, rejected Him as the Messiah. When He comes in glory there will be no question as to who He is. When God's people are glorified with Him the need for faith will have come to an end. Concerning hope we read, "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it" (Rom 8:24-25). The second coming of Jesus is that blessed hope. When Christ comes for me my hope will be realized and brought to fruition. At that time, when I see Him and I am with Him, I will only need the love of God for all eternity. These verses tell us that the time of faith, hope and charity in the church age must be before the Lord returns for His people. This means that tongues, prophecy and special knowledge will be done away with before the return of Christ. Now, when is that time? Paul is telling us in his epistle to the Corinthians when that point in time will be. It is when "that which is perfect is come" (1Co 13:10). No wonder Paul said, "Now abideth, faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

I know many interpret "that which is perfect" to be the coming of Jesus Christ and His millennial kingdom; but as we have just pointed out, the three gifts of faith, hope and charity must exist by themselves before His coming. And not only that, but also the word "that" suggests a thing and not a person. Why don't we let the Bible itself tell us what is the meaning of "that which is perfect." According to the lexicon, the word perfect in the King James Version comes from a Greek word meaning: "brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; full grown, adult, of full age, mature." Now ask yourself, what was completed in this age before the Lord's return? Well, again, why don't we let the Bible tell us. In 1 Corinthians 13:11 we read, "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." This verse is immediately after the verse that mentions, "that which is perfect" which shows us that Paul means exactly what the lexicon says concerning the word "perfect." And what were the childish things that Paul had in mind that would be put away when that which is perfect or complete had come? Well, it should be obvious to any reader that he was speaking of the early gifts of tongues, prophecy and special revelation knowledge given to the members of the infant church during the apostolic age. But, lets go on. If we look closely in the book of James we will see a sort of parallel to what Paul is writing about in chapter 13 so that we may clearly see what Paul meant by the words, "that which is perfect."

In James chapter one we read, "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed" (Jam 1:23-25). Here we see that the word of God is called the "perfect law of liberty." The Greek word used for "perfect" in James is the exact same word that Paul used for "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13. We also see from James that the "perfect law of liberty" is something that a man looks into as he would a "looking glass" or mirror. The word for "glass" in the book of James has the meaning of "mirror" according to the lexicon and is the same Greek word translated "glass" in 1Cor 13:12. When a man looks into a mirror he sees himself. He comes "face to face" with himself. James says, "For he beholdeth himself." Who else do you see when you look into a mirror? The word of God is what reveals to us that we are depraved sinners and in desperate need of a savior. We would never come to that realization without looking into the mirror of God's word and we would go on thinking that old lie, "we're not such a bad person." The Bible tells us that "there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Romans 3:12). So, we see from James, that the word of God is called "the perfect law of liberty" and is compared to a mirror or glass that someone would look into and behold his own self. Now if we take this understanding given in James and apply it to 1 Corinthians 13, then we will have a better understanding of what Paul is speaking of in his epistle to the Corinthians. Notice in 1Cor 13:9-12 that they only had revelation knowledge and prophecy in part or portion. They had only pieces of it and not the whole completed revelation. Paul said that they looked through a glass darkly at that time. Again, glass has the meaning of a mirror and the word "through" has not the idea of looking through it as it being transparent, but looking by means of it, or a channel. If you take a lexicon, you will see that is exactly what the meaning of "through" is here. Also, the word "darkly" in the King James version means "obscured." Now, if they at that time only had parts of God's revelation, then would not their vision be obscured? How can you look into a mirror that is only in pieces or parts and get a clear picture? When the mirror is complete, which James says is the word of God, we get an un-obscured view of ourselves. Then I can perceive myself even as I am perceived through the mirror of God's completed word. Notice that Paul says "face to face" in 1 Corinthians 13:12, but then says we shall "know," and the word "know" means to perceive, even as I am known. In other words, I will perceive myself even as I am perceived. When you look into a mirror you see yourself as others see you. You are "face to face" with yourself. So, when we look into the mirror of God's completed word (if we have been given eyes to see through the quickening of the Holy Spirit) we see ourselves as God sees us. Then we lose all self-righteousness and are compelled to flee to Christ.

In the Book of Revelation we read, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" (Rev 22:18). Some will say that what is meant here is adding to the Book of Revelation and not to the Bible. Despite that argument, no one dares to add modern day "revelations" to the Bible. I guess false teachers will only take their "revelations" so far and dare not add their "words of prophecy" to the Bible. If God really has given men a word or a prophecy, then why don't we add it to the book? They won't dare do that, will they? Paul in his second letter to Timothy writes, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2Tim 3:16-17). Paul says that all of the scripture was enough to make the man of God perfect, or fully mature and thoroughly furnished. Sounds like the scripture is enough for the man of God. It may not be enough for the carnal man and the sign seekers, but it is enough for the man of God. I know the Bible may not be enough for people that have to see something, or someone who needs to feel the carnal sensation of "warm honey flowing down [his] body from the tip of [his] head to the bottom of [his] feet," as one young man told me of his experience when he spoke in tongues, but the Bible is enough for the man of God. When that which is perfect or complete is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

[Baptistrw]

Some may argue that the gift of tongues was not "that which is in part." This is true since the Bible said "we know in part and prophecy in part," but the gift of tongues was to cease along with prophecy and special knowledge. How does a person speak a tongue in part anyway? Yet prophecy could be a piece of the whole as also knowledge, and notice, tongues is sandwiched between knowledge and prophecy and is said to cease with them. If tongues is still in existence then so is the gift of prophecy and special revelation knowledge. Some will argue that prophecy is simply speaking God's word, so that when we speak the Bible we are prophets in that sense. While this may be true, it does not appear that would apply here in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians. Are we to assume that when faith, hope and charity exist by themselves that we are not to speak God's word? So then the word "prophecy" can not mean simply speaking God's written word as it is used in 1 Corinthians 13. "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him" (Deut 18:22). It appears that one of the tests of false prophets was whether the thing came to pass. The foretelling of the future along with edification is the sense of Paul's discourse on prophecy in his epistle to the Corinthian church. I have read that Benny Hin had made a prophecy that Castro would die in the 1990's, yet Castro is still alive.He also prophesied that the homo-sexual community in America would be destroyed by fire in the 1990's, yet that did not happen either. Do not be afraid of Benny, he's just another false prophet with millions of followers. The lexicon says concerning the word translated prophecy in 1 Corinthians 13, "a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events." How do we declare God's purposes today? Do we receive direct revelation from God, as some claim; or do we simply go to God's word, the Bible, to speak the mind of God? Is it "Sola Scriptura" or something more? Concerning the gift of prophecy, some will probably make the argument that the two witnesses that are mention in the Book of Revelation will "prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev 11:3). . I believe the two witnesses that will prophesy in the book of Revelation are Old Testament prophets of Israel brought back to earth. The church will be gone at that time and God will be dealing with Israel again. The church age will be ended and it will be the time of Daniel's 70th week. The Jews reject the New Testament, and these two witnesses shall fulfill and complete the last book of the New Testament. They will not be adding to, but fulfilling what has been written in the Book of Revelation given by Jesus Christ to John. They will not be part of the church age. The church has the New Testament.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Nice copy and paste job, but what I was looking for is your opinion.

 

[pinky]

Dear friends, in my opinion God does not take back a gift, short and sweet, Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can not be uttered."....Mark16:17, "And these signs shall follow those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues......."From the message bible, 1 Corinthians13:8-10"Love never dies.Inspired speech will be over some day;praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit. We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete....BUT WHEN THE COMPLETE ARRIVES,our incompletes will be canceled."When my Lord comes to get me, I will be in such awe of Him I am sure I will not be able to have inspired speech, I am sure that praying in tongues will slip my mind, I am sure that at that time my understanding will finally reach its limit, therefor, I take this as meaning upon His return, also Paul says in i Corinthians 14:13-17, from the message bible,"...................So whats the solution, the answer is simple enough, Do both...................."do all things with love

 

[thefightinglamb]

I think it is very interesting that Jesus in the Bible was never recorded as speaking in tongues...unless you consider his quote of Isiah saying 'having ears they do not hear, and having eyes they do not see" as referring to when he was speaking in tongues...it is interesting that Jesus said before calling Lazarus out of the tomb 'that he knew the Father always heard him but that He said these things that those present might see, and seeing, believe." It seems that would have been a good verse to say 'speaking in tongues he appealed to his Father in words that cannot here be written" (or something of the sort) and thus have been heard by and convicted by those who had little faith (like Martha) but it wasn't! Jesus seems to have used actual intelligible words there and everywhere in the Bible...and following his example it seems Christians should try to also...

This being said as a string of thoughts more than a consensus, I am not for or against tongues, and think the only thing that truly matters is 'faith working through love' and if this leads me or anyone to converse in angelic or foreign tongues than I will pursue judgment of it by its fruits even as Jesus says a tree shall be known by its fruit.

God bless the language of love--the life of human souls.

 

[NoahsDad]

kool darby comentary razor,I like it you been doin your siminary homework ,Got another one for ya th, Now hte gift of prophecy ,tongues and "special"knowledge are out,What about the other 4?
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
theres Faith
Healing
working of miricles
and discerning of spirits,Now in the commentary it mentioned faith,hope and love,But the flaw in the interpretation is Faith is a gift of the spirit just as the gift of tongues or profecy
notice this verse

1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Notice this colen between these 2 words( gifts: and ) english 101......
another part of the subject starts here the a in and should be capitolised .contenuing the subject but elaborating on the instruction other than the origional reproving in the former chapter.
see I feel the focus is being put on the gifts, instead of the origional meaning of the 2 chapters as a whole instruction.
I personally dont get into the whole thing with the tongues or healin and such ,for I dont feel its sposed to be as important as weve been made to believe in the modern churches,meaning i feel if it is; it is: if it aint; I aint missed nuthin cuz I aint never done it anyway,
The focus of chapter 13 should be put here (and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. )The focus and summery of the 12th chapter is in this verse
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? then begins bringing the thaught into another way just as you would instruct a child ,(dont do this,But do this)
(example )
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts:
what is this 'Best gift"?
and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
What is the more excelent way?
enter ch13v1&2
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
There it is. and have not charity, I am nothing.thats the focus on this chapter.
reading the 2 together with this understanding youll see that the origional meaning of these chapters arent saying anything about gifts ending as a deffinat thing but saying "What if all these things came to an end?what are you left with?The main focus is Love Charity.nothing to do with faith cuz if faith ended you still got the more excelent way,if tongues ended you still got the more excelent way etc.
prety much whats being said is even if you could do all these things you aint Squat if you dont do it out of the pure love that the holy Spirit gives ya if you aint got that in you none of it amounts to a hill of beans. But thats just my thaughts on reading the whole subject.
HOLLA

 

[NoahsDad]

ps........how do ya shrink down the writing so it aint huge?

 

[MahogonySnail]

I think the Spirit is grieved when christians deny the manifestation of His spiritual gifts within each of us. Remember we have to give account of what we used for God and if we left our spiritual gifts unused..what then? do we hear Christ say.. "Well done faithful servant, you successfully stifled My Spirit and prevented the spiritual gifts from being used and edifying the Church " ?
Let's not forget that use of the gifts and love etc are not mutually exclusive. What could be more loving than using the gifts to edify the church? Yet many christians won't even allow that.

 

[NazariteNation]

Amen. Tongues disappeared from church history, and the only ones who spoke in tongues were branded heretics, e.g. Montanus. Something to take into consideration.

A lot of things disappeared from church history as the church moved away from it's Jewish history, including christian morality and ethics. It should be noted that the gifts began to disappear when immorality and corruption began to become prevalent.

 

[NazariteNation]

The funny thing is, the existence of the gifts can not be disputed. They are clearly recorded and talked about throughout the New Testament. In fact, the last book of the bible became manifest through the use of one of the Gifts.

The question here is can one biblically discern beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gifts are not relevant for today and the answer is a resounding NO.

 

[NazariteNation]

Some may argue that the gift of tongues was not "that which is in part." This is true since the Bible said "we know in part and prophecy in part," but the gift of tongues was to cease along with prophecy and special knowledge.

The scripture you are paraphrasing from is 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 and it reads like this:

"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. FOR NOW we know in part and we prophesy in part, BUT WHEN the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. FOR NOW we see in a mirror dimly, BUT THEN face to face. NOW I know in part; THEN I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known."

Perfection does not come until Christ returns to set up His Millenial Kingdom. If the modern church was perfect, there would be no division among the saints and we would not be having this discussion right now.

However, it should be noted that pure Catholicism, Mormons, Jehova's Witness also share your perspective on a "perfected church".