Is Holy Scripture sufficient ....?

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Nov 23, 2011
772
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#1
"Inquirer: Is Holy Scripture sufficient in order to guide man to salvation?

"Elder Cleopa: "No, it is not sufficient to guide man to salvation, (1)

inasmuch as, firstly, it wasn't given to man from the beginning and,

secondly, when it was given it wasn't the only authentic text, with

regard to the salvation of human souls, because before it there was the

Holy Tradition. Many years before Moses began writing the first books

of the Old Testament, there was sacred piety in the community of the

people of Israel. Similarly, the books of the New Testament began to

be written ten years after the formal foundation of the Church, which

took place on the day of Pentecost. The Church chose and sealed as

inspired by God the books of the two Testaments over one hundred

years later. (2) These then comprised the declared Canon of the books

of Holy Scripture. Thereafter the Church maintained this Canon of

Truth, inasmuch as it is the very "pillar and ground of truth" (1 Tim.

3:15). The Holy Spirit operates within all of this for the preservation of

the truth about salvation. Where the Church is, says Saint Jerome,

there also is the Spirit of God and where the Spirit of God is, there

also is the Church and all grace -- since the Spirit is truth" [pages 50-

51: THE TRUTH OF OUR FAITH: Discourses from Holy Scripture on

the Tenets of Christian Orthodoxy.
by Elder Cleopa of Romania.

Translated from Greek and Edited by Peter Alban Heers. Thessalonica,

Greece & London, Ontario, Canada: Uncut Mountain Press, 2002.].

Notes.

1. "We cannot assert that Scripture is self-sufficient; and this is not

because it is incomplete, or inexact, or has any defects, but because

Scripture in its very essence does not lay claim to self-sufficiency ... If

we declare Scripture to be self-sufficient, we only expose it to

subjective, arbitrary interpretation, thus cutting it away from its sacred

source. Scripture is given to us in tradition. It is the vital, crystallizing

center. The Church, as the Body of Christ, stands mystically first and is

fuller than Scripture. This does not limit Scripture, or cast shadows on

it. But truth is revealed to us not only historically. Christ appeared and

still appears before us not only in the Scriptures; He unchangeably and

unceasingly reveals Himself in the Church, in His own Body. In the

times of the early Christians the Gospels were not yet written and could

not be the sole source of knowledge. The Church acted according to

the spirit of the Gospel, and, what is more, the Gospel came to life in

the Church, in the Holy Eucharist. In the Christ of the Holy Eucharist

Christians learned to know the Christ of the Gospels, and so His image

became vivid to them".

2. "By the end of the first century ... the Church possessed the four

Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Although they were not

perhaps as yet collected into one volume, each had been accepted by

the group of churches for which it was written. Very soon afterward

they were combined in one quadripartite Gospel, and in the middle of

the second century the Christian apologist Tatian composed the first

harmony, or code, of the Gospels. .... The appearance of the New

Testament in the Church as a book, as Scripture, was therefore not a

new factor, but a record of the founding tradition. Just because it was

identical with the original tradition as the Church already knew it, there

appeared at first no need of a canon, or precisely fixed list of accepted

records of Scripture" [Fr. Alexander Schmemann, The Historical Road

of Eastern Orthodoxy
; p. 44.]. In fact, for the western Church it was

not until 419 AD at the Council of the 217 Blessed Fathers assembled

at Carthage that the entire New Testament as we know it today was

irrevocably canonized (Canon XXIV)" - Editor.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#2
Is God and His Word alone sufficient for Salvation? Of course it is. Otherwise we would be placing our silly limitations on God Almighty. With God all things are possible. God does as He Wills. He doesn't ask the Holy Roman church first and then act. He doesn't ask the Greek Orthodox church first and then act.

Elder Cleopa blew it. God can use whatever He wants to bring anyone He wants to Salvation. We don't define God. God defines us.

There is so much error out there it is probably preferrable to God to just use His Word and not rely on the error of Man and his Tradition... But then I would be in just as much error as Elder Cleopa if I said that. The Lord God can save anyone, anywhere, in any circumstance. Despite our pre-conceived ideas of what is and what is not correct.
 
F

Forest

Guest
#3
"Inquirer: Is Holy Scripture sufficient in order to guide man to salvation?

"Elder Cleopa: "No, it is not sufficient to guide man to salvation, (1)

inasmuch as, firstly, it wasn't given to man from the beginning and,

secondly, when it was given it wasn't the only authentic text, with

regard to the salvation of human souls, because before it there was the

Holy Tradition. Many years before Moses began writing the first books

of the Old Testament, there was sacred piety in the community of the

people of Israel. Similarly, the books of the New Testament began to

be written ten years after the formal foundation of the Church, which

took place on the day of Pentecost. The Church chose and sealed as

inspired by God the books of the two Testaments over one hundred

years later. (2) These then comprised the declared Canon of the books

of Holy Scripture. Thereafter the Church maintained this Canon of

Truth, inasmuch as it is the very "pillar and ground of truth" (1 Tim.

3:15). The Holy Spirit operates within all of this for the preservation of

the truth about salvation. Where the Church is, says Saint Jerome,

there also is the Spirit of God and where the Spirit of God is, there

also is the Church and all grace -- since the Spirit is truth" [pages 50-

51: THE TRUTH OF OUR FAITH: Discourses from Holy Scripture on

the Tenets of Christian Orthodoxy. by Elder Cleopa of Romania.

Translated from Greek and Edited by Peter Alban Heers. Thessalonica,

Greece & London, Ontario, Canada: Uncut Mountain Press, 2002.].

Notes.

1. "We cannot assert that Scripture is self-sufficient; and this is not

because it is incomplete, or inexact, or has any defects, but because

Scripture in its very essence does not lay claim to self-sufficiency ... If

we declare Scripture to be self-sufficient, we only expose it to

subjective, arbitrary interpretation, thus cutting it away from its sacred

source. Scripture is given to us in tradition. It is the vital, crystallizing

center. The Church, as the Body of Christ, stands mystically first and is

fuller than Scripture. This does not limit Scripture, or cast shadows on

it. But truth is revealed to us not only historically. Christ appeared and

still appears before us not only in the Scriptures; He unchangeably and

unceasingly reveals Himself in the Church, in His own Body. In the

times of the early Christians the Gospels were not yet written and could

not be the sole source of knowledge. The Church acted according to

the spirit of the Gospel, and, what is more, the Gospel came to life in

the Church, in the Holy Eucharist. In the Christ of the Holy Eucharist

Christians learned to know the Christ of the Gospels, and so His image

became vivid to them".

2. "By the end of the first century ... the Church possessed the four

Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Although they were not

perhaps as yet collected into one volume, each had been accepted by

the group of churches for which it was written. Very soon afterward

they were combined in one quadripartite Gospel, and in the middle of

the second century the Christian apologist Tatian composed the first

harmony, or code, of the Gospels. .... The appearance of the New

Testament in the Church as a book, as Scripture, was therefore not a

new factor, but a record of the founding tradition. Just because it was

identical with the original tradition as the Church already knew it, there

appeared at first no need of a canon, or precisely fixed list of accepted

records of Scripture" [Fr. Alexander Schmemann, The Historical Road

of Eastern Orthodoxy; p. 44.]. In fact, for the western Church it was

not until 419 AD at the Council of the 217 Blessed Fathers assembled

at Carthage that the entire New Testament as we know it today was

irrevocably canonized (Canon XXIV)" - Editor.
The Holy Spirit does guide us to many timely salvations, but nothing, not the Holy Spirit, not Christ, not even God GUIDES US TO ETERNAL SALVATION. Eternal salvation was accomplished on the cross for all that God gave his Son John 6:37-40. There is no plan of eternal salvation for man other than God's plan that was accomplished on the cross. The inspired scriptures were given as instructions on how God's elect should live their lives here in this world, and that includes Shroom's interpretation of Rom 10:9.
 
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
#4
The Holy Spirit does guide us to many timely salvations, but nothing, not the Holy Spirit, not Christ, not even God GUIDES US TO ETERNAL SALVATION. Eternal salvation was accomplished on the cross for all that God gave his Son John 6:37-40. There is no plan of eternal salvation for man other than God's plan that was accomplished on the cross. The inspired scriptures were given as instructions on how God's elect should live their lives here in this world, and that includes Shroom's interpretation of Rom 10:9.
Romans 10:9 is how to become saved (eternally), Forest. Your doctrine makes God the author of evil, condemning millions to death because He simply decided to. That is not God.
 
F

Forest

Guest
#5
Romans 10:9 is how to become saved (eternally), Forest. Your doctrine makes God the author of evil, condemning millions to death because He simply decided to. That is not God.
And to let millions suffer eternal punishment when he has the power to save them, that is not God!
 
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
#6
And to let millions suffer eternal punishment when he has the power to save them, that is not God!
I have no doubt it causes God much grief that so many will not believe, but He will not override a person's free will, Forest.
 
Nov 23, 2011
772
0
0
#7
[quote

=Grandpa;599090]Is God and His Word alone sufficient for Salvation? Of course it is. Otherwise we would be placing our silly limitations on God Almighty. With God all things are possible. God does as He Wills. He doesn't ask the Holy Roman church first and then act. He doesn't ask the Greek Orthodox church first and then act.

Elder Cleopa blew it. God can use whatever He wants to bring anyone He wants to Salvation. We don't define God. God defines us.

There is so much error out there it is probably preferrable to God to just use His Word and not rely on the error of Man and his Tradition... But then I would be in just as much error as Elder Cleopa if I said that. The Lord God can save anyone, anywhere, in any circumstance. Despite our pre-conceived ideas of what is and what is not correct.

[/quote]

You still haven't found one Scripture that says "the Bible alone". The Bible says the Holy Spirit is needed (John 16:13). Reading the Holy Bible without the presence of the Holy Spirit will not produce salvation.
It is possible to misread the Bible. Protestants deny this, and say everyone (or anyone) can easily understand the Bible. If that is so, why the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists, Roman Catholics?
You have a pre-conceived idea that Elder Cleopa and the Orthodox Church is not correct. You follow a pre-conceived "tradition of men".

 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#8
[quote

=Grandpa;599090]Is God and His Word alone sufficient for Salvation? Of course it is. Otherwise we would be placing our silly limitations on God Almighty. With God all things are possible. God does as He Wills. He doesn't ask the Holy Roman church first and then act. He doesn't ask the Greek Orthodox church first and then act.

Elder Cleopa blew it. God can use whatever He wants to bring anyone He wants to Salvation. We don't define God. God defines us.

There is so much error out there it is probably preferrable to God to just use His Word and not rely on the error of Man and his Tradition... But then I would be in just as much error as Elder Cleopa if I said that. The Lord God can save anyone, anywhere, in any circumstance. Despite our pre-conceived ideas of what is and what is not correct.
You still haven't found one Scripture that says "the Bible alone". The Bible says the Holy Spirit is needed (John 16:13). Reading the Holy Bible without the presence of the Holy Spirit will not produce salvation.
It is possible to misread the Bible. Protestants deny this, and say everyone (or anyone) can easily understand the Bible. If that is so, why the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists, Roman Catholics?
You have a pre-conceived idea that Elder Cleopa and the Orthodox Church is not correct. You follow a pre-conceived "tradition of men".

[/quote]

Why would I need a scripture that says the bible alone?

1John 2:26,27 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


I have a pre-conceived idea that God is Almighty. I didn't know anything about Elder Cleopa or the Orthodox church until your posts. Any time you say God can't do something I know you are wrong, and your elders are wrong. Any time you try to limit the Power of God I know you are wrong and your elders are wrong. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of our Salvation. Not a certain denomination or certain church and not because we follow this tradition or that tradition. God is Almighty, and He decides when, how and where we are Saved.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#9
I have no doubt it causes God much grief that so many will not believe, but He will not override a person's free will, Forest.
That's not true, is it? What about Pharaoh? What about Nebuchednazzar? What about Jonah? What about Pilate?

You seem to think that a Loving God would not override a persons free will. Sometimes overriding a persons free will is the most loving thing you could do.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#10
And to let millions suffer eternal punishment when he has the power to save them, that is not God!
God does have the power to save them. He died for them. He will not, however, subvert a mans free will and force them to believe in him. If he did, he would not be a God at all.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#11
"Inquirer: Is Holy Scripture sufficient in order to guide man to salvation?
2 Timothy 3:15
and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Seems like paul gave us te answer.

Timothy had enough Scripture as a child (before one sentance of the NT was even written) to have enough knowledge on how to be saved.

If Paul says the answer is yes. Who are we to appose paul??
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#12
That's not true, is it? What about Pharaoh? What about Nebuchednazzar? What about Jonah? What about Pilate?

You seem to think that a Loving God would not override a persons free will. Sometimes overriding a persons free will is the most loving thing you could do.

God never over rode their free will. What would make us think he did??

Look at Jonah. Jonah said no. God could have just overrode his free will and made him go. But he did not. He put things in his life which caused Jonah to make a free will decision to do what God told him to do. Jonah did not have to go. He could have said no and stayed in the belly (yes he would have died. But many bad decisions people have made has caused their death.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#13
I have no doubt it causes God much grief that so many will not believe, but He will not override a person's free will, Forest.


Acts 16

Timothy Joins Paul and Silas

1 Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2 The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. 4 As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. 5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith and grew daily in numbers.
Paul’s Vision of the Man of Macedonia

6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. 8 So they passed by Mysia and went down to Troas. 9 During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.


 
Nov 23, 2011
772
0
0
#14
[quote

=Grandpa;599342]You still haven't found one Scripture that says "the Bible

alone". The Bible says the Holy Spirit is needed (John 16:13). Reading

the Holy Bible without the presence of the Holy Spirit will not produce

salvation.


It is possible to misread the Bible. Protestants deny this, and say

everyone (or anyone) can easily understand the Bible. If that is so, why

the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists, Roman

Catholics?


You have a pre-conceived idea that Elder Cleopa and the Orthodox

Church is not correct. You follow a pre-conceived "tradition of men".


[/quote]

Why would I need a scripture that says the bible alone?

1John 2:26,27 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


I have a pre-conceived idea that God is Almighty. I didn't know anything about Elder

Cleopa or the Orthodox church until your posts. Any time you say God can't do

something I know you are wrong, and your elders are wrong. Any time you try to limit

the Power of God I know you are wrong and your elders are wrong. The Lord Jesus

Christ is the Author and Finisher of our Salvation. Not a certain denomination or certain

church and not because we follow this tradition or that tradition. God is Almighty, and He

decides when, how and where we are Saved.


[/quote]

Any time you say that I am trying to limit the power of God, you are wrong in saying that I am trying to

do that. You are not understanding what I am saying. You walk right past my words, and ignore just

about everything that I said. Why is that? God is Almighty. True. He says when, how, and where we

are saved. No problem. The problem comes when the Sovereignty of God is twisted and distorted into

double predestination and Calvinism.

We are to follow the traditions of the apostles (in the lands described in the New Testament) (2 Thess.

2:15), not traditions from Germany that are no older than 494 years old. God can save us without a

Reformation of the papacy.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#15
Acts 16

Timothy Joins Paul and Silas

1 Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2 The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. 4 As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. 5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith and grew daily in numbers.
Paul’s Vision of the Man of Macedonia

6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. 8 So they passed by Mysia and went down to Troas. 9 During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.


Does it say how the "spirit" Stopped them? If it does not. your assuming God overruled there free will. and just did not put something in their way to stop them. Like he does all of us. Forcing someone to do something would be not allowing them the idea to even want to do something, thus he changed their will.

Game is not over by a long shot. And how rude and pridefull of you to think so!
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#16
Does it say how the "spirit" Stopped them? If it does not. your assuming God overruled there free will. and just did not put something in their way to stop them. Like he does all of us. Forcing someone to do something would be not allowing them the idea to even want to do something, thus he changed their will.

Game is not over by a long shot. And how rude and pridefull of you to think so!
Were they able to carry out their will?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#17
Does it say how the "spirit" Stopped them? If it does not. your assuming God overruled there free will. and just did not put something in their way to stop them. Like he does all of us. Forcing someone to do something would be not allowing them the idea to even want to do something, thus he changed their will.

Game is not over by a long shot. And how rude and pridefull of you to think so!
If a person wills to do something and God does something to make them change their mind, hasn't God "overrode" their "free-will"? Hasn't He forced them to think differently? If He did not do this then How could He be Sovereign? Our free will would override God's will, which we know that is not the case. Well I guess some of us do.

 
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
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#18
If a person wills to do something and God does something to make them change their mind, hasn't God "overrode" their "free-will"? Hasn't He forced them to think differently? If He did not do this then How could He be Sovereign? Our free will would override God's will, which we know that is not the case. Well I guess some of us do.
God will not do something to "make" you change your mind. He can surely try, but the end decision is up to you. Just as Paul was adamant he was going to go to Jerusalem in Acts 20:16ff. God told Paul via several means NOT to go to Jerusalem, but he went anyway.

God is not sovereign in the sense He controls our every move. Our free will can, and often does, override God's will. It happens ALL THE TIME. It is never God's will for people to sin, but they do it every day. Man has free will. He can choose to obey God, or not.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#19
God will not do something to "make" you change your mind. He can surely try, but the end decision is up to you. Just as Paul was adamant he was going to go to Jerusalem in Acts 20:16ff. God told Paul via several means NOT to go to Jerusalem, but he went anyway.
Acts 16
7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.
 
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
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#20
Acts 16
7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.
Do you have a bigger font?

THEY CHOSE TO LISTEN.

You Calvinists....sheesh.