A dying mans warning of hell

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Laodicea

Guest
#21
#21
Deadtosin said:
Matthew 17:1-5

King James Version (KJV)


Matthew 17


1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.




"try that again."
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Moses was resurrected and represented all who will be resurrected at the return of Jesus. While Elijah went to Heaven without seeing death, he represents those who will be alive when Jesus returns. So the transfiguration is the return of Jesus in type
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 
Deadtosin

Deadtosin

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#22
Mar 18, 2011
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#22
shroom2 said:
Commas were added by the translators.

"Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise"

Remember, Jesus was dead for three days and three nights, until God raised him. The kingdom of Christ is still future. He will set it up after the battle of armageddon. At that point the resurrection of the just will happen, when all OT believers (including the thief) will get up from the dead.
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and who were your puctuations added by?
 
Deadtosin

Deadtosin

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#23
Mar 18, 2011
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#23
Laodicea said:
Moses was resurrected and represented all who will be resurrected at the return of Jesus. While Elijah went to Heaven without seeing death, he represents those who will be alive when Jesus returns. So the transfiguration is the return of Jesus in type
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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how was Jesus the first resurrection if Moses was already resurrected? look its irrelevant what is first or last.. none of it discredits this mans experience. Once out of the physical realm time and space as we know it has no bearings. Second, this dismissing biblical conversation and statements with arguing comma's and semantics is going to lead us nowhere, you can appreciate the link or not.
 
S

shroom2

Banned
#24
Apr 13, 2011
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#24
Deadtosin said:
and who were your puctuations added by?
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Me, and common sense. If the thief went to paradise with Christ the day he died, then Christ did not really die, and our sins are not paid for. Plus, as Laodicea pointed out, there are several other scripture that say dead people are dead.
 
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shroom2

Banned
#25
Apr 13, 2011
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#25
Laodicea said:
Moses was resurrected and represented all who will be resurrected at the return of Jesus. While Elijah went to Heaven without seeing death, he represents those who will be alive when Jesus returns. So the transfiguration is the return of Jesus in type
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Click to expand...
The transfiguration was a vision. Moses was not resurrected, and Elijah is still dead. (no man has ascended into heaven except Christ John 3:13) It was a vision.
 
Deadtosin

Deadtosin

Banned
#26
Mar 18, 2011
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#26
Matthew 17


1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

You and Laodicea believe this was a vision? fine, I believe it actually happened.. we disagree. Thanks for the conversation.
 
S

shroom2

Banned
#27
Apr 13, 2011
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#27
Deadtosin said:
Matthew 17


1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

You and Laodicea believe this was a vision? fine, I believe it actually happened.. we disagree. Thanks for the conversation.
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The BIBLE says it was a vision.

Matt 17:9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

You can believe otherwise if you want to.
 
Deadtosin

Deadtosin

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#28
Mar 18, 2011
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#28
it amazes me how something as simple as a dying mans last words can result in a disagreement. I'm not sure anything can be posted on this site at all that won't lead to some sort of a disagreement. Lets respect the man and agree to disagree.
 
Deadtosin

Deadtosin

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#29
Mar 18, 2011
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#29
God can show people whatever He wants for the sake of His glory. If He wants to show a dying man a vision of hell and heaven to pass a message onto the living then so be it. If you dont' want to believe it than so be it. If you want to tear apart any angle of belief that is separate from your own than so be it. One last food for thought though. What about Lazarus? was he the first res? or what about the young girl who died and he brought back? We can go back and forth over a multitude of details and we can disagree on all of them. But the truth can quite easily be beyond me and you.
 
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shroom2

Banned
#30
Apr 13, 2011
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#30
Lazarus and the girl were not raised to eternal life. They were brought back to this life. Jesus Christ is the only man raised to eternal life, so far. For everyone else it's still future.

God bless.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#31
#31
shroom2 said:
The transfiguration was a vision. Moses was not resurrected, and Elijah is still dead. (no man has ascended into heaven except Christ John 3:13) It was a vision.
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Sorry shroom I have to disagree with you. The Bible in Jude that Moses was resurrected. The Bible says Elijah was translated. It was not a vision that they saw
 
Avinu

Avinu

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#32
May 18, 2011
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#32
Deadtosin, thank you for sharing this, this video is right on, and it just shows how much we need to really step it up to reach the lost. shalom
 
S

shroom2

Banned
#33
Apr 13, 2011
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#33
Laodicea said:
Sorry shroom I have to disagree with you. The Bible in Jude that Moses was resurrected. The Bible says Elijah was translated. It was not a vision that they saw
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You can disagree if you want. Jude does not say Moses was resurrected. The bible says no man is in heaven except Christ. The bible says the transfiguration was a vision.
 
Avinu

Avinu

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#34
May 18, 2011
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#34
Lazarus and the girl were not raised to eternal life. They were brought back to this life. Jesus Christ is the only man raised to eternal life, so far. For everyone else it's still future.
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Even though Lazarus was resurrected by Yeshua, when he died, it says that he was seen in the bosom of Abraham in heaven by the rich man who was burning in hell.
 
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shroom2

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#35
Apr 13, 2011
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#35
Avinu said:
Even though Lazarus was resurrected by Yeshua, when he died, it says that he was seen in the bosom of Abraham in heaven by the rich man who was burning in hell.
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Different Lazarus, and Luke 16 is a parable.
 
Deadtosin

Deadtosin

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#36
Mar 18, 2011
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#36
brothers... we are doing exactly that which God does not wish us to do. We are knit-picking over the smallest detail. "it wasn't a black and yellow bee, it is quite clearly yellow and black" lets focus our energy more wholly on the Lord and trust Him to guide our steps and less on our own understandings.
-God bless each of you.
 
Avinu

Avinu

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#37
May 18, 2011
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#37
Different Lazarus, and Luke 16 is a parable.
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One, it is not a parable and there no evidence that says it is, Yeshua is using specific names, i.e. Abraham, Lazarus, He doesn't do that when it's a parable. And also where do you get it was a different Lazarus, do you have scripture to back that up?
 
G

gotime

Senior Member
#38
Mar 3, 2011
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#38
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

What is Jesus saying here?

well in short the previous verse will help:


Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

notice that Jesus is astounded that a religious teacher does not understand earthly things which he has just been explaining. so then the next verse Jesus speaks of spiritual things.

does verse 13 show spiritual thought?

Answer: yes. Jesus not only says that he came down from heaven but that he is in heaven at that very moment. now the how and why I will not go into here.

Jesus is speaking spiritually here.

how is another reason that we know that this is spiritual talk and not reality as we know it?

Answer:
2Ki 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

The scripture is plain that Elijah went to heaven. so Jesus can not have meant that no one has ever entered heaven before Jesus came down.

this fits both contexts.

here is another example of spiritual Vs literal.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

here the literal implication is Jesus was the first to be resurrected. we know that this is not so from a number of scriptures that show others who have been resurrected both in the new and the old testament. So then we know that this scripture is spiritual in nature and we must find the spiritual application. which is simply that all resurrections weather past or future are dependent on Jesus death and resurrection. thus in this sense he really is the first.

oh and by the way, read the transfiguration it was not a vision. they actually saw it.

blessigs
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#39
#39
Avinu said:
One, it is not a parable and there no evidence that says it is, Yeshua is using specific names, i.e. Abraham, Lazarus, He doesn't do that when it's a parable. And also where do you get it was a different Lazarus, do you have scripture to back that up?
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The Lazarus in the parable was a beggar, the Lazarus who died that Jesus resurrected was not a beggar. This is what Jesus said of Lazarus when he died
John 11:11-14
(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

So in these verses Jesus is referring to death as a sleep. If Lazarus was in heaven and was brought back to earth then he would have complained.
 
Deadtosin

Deadtosin

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#40
Mar 18, 2011
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#40
I wouldn't go as far as to say a man would complain when brought back to life after he was in heaven. He may well have been shocked. Would your first words to Jesus be a complaint? Also the words "he sleeps" doesn't necessarily suggest that he is in a place where he has no consciousness at all. When we sleep we dream. To say he sleeps could very easily have just been another way to say he is dead.. which in fact Jesus clarifies.
 
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