Eastern Orthodox Beliefs and Non-Beliefs.
Eastern Orthodox Beliefs and Non-Beliefs
Eastern Orthodox Beliefs and Non-Beliefs
Eastern Orthodox Beliefs and Non-Beliefs.
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From your link above:
Eastern Orthodoxy believes:
1. That there are three Divine Persons in God, distinct, yet equal. Agreed.
2. That the Father is the head of the Trinity, neither begotten, nor proceeds from anyone.
Contradicts #1 above. How can the Father be the head and yet also equal? Do you mean equal ontologically, or that the Son and Holy Spirit are less equal or subservient when performing redemptive work?
3. That the Son is begotten from the Father, of the very same essence (omo'ousios) of the Father. He is God and also truly Man like us, because He assumed human nature from the Blessed Virgin Mary, except for sin. He died on the Cross to save mankind, and He ascended into Heaven. He will come again to "judge the living and the dead". Agreed.
4. That the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Not sure.
5. That the world is not self-created but is the work of one God. Agreed.
6. That there are Seven Sacraments: Baptism, Holy Chrismation, Holy Eucharist, Holy Confession, Ordination, Marriage, and Holy Unction. Those not highlighted in orange are manmade additions.
Also, baptism need not be performed by ordained priests as it is done "in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit", by anyone who is in a saved relationship with Christ and is therefore a saint in His Church. The power thus comes from the Trinity, and not from the person performing the rite, just as the apostles who were sent out to heal in Jesus' name did it by Jesus' power, and not their own. The same is true for Communion. Marriage is not a sacrament.
The other sacraments were not authorized by Christ, and were added to increase the power and prestige of the priesthood. These other sacrament did not come to be clearly established until Gregory I (590-604) (beginning with penance) and is nowhere found in the early church.
7. That no one can be saved unless he is baptized. Agreed.
8. That the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition are of equal value, and that they complete each other. Disagree. Holy Scriptures superior to tradition in determining Truth.
9. That God assigned to every man an Angel to guide and help him. Not biblical. Why would this angel allow someone to die in a car accident? Why does this angel not instruct everyone in the Gospel, including atheists? I guess we don't need your church after all! Angels are messengers, not guides.
10. That after death, man's body goes to earth, and the soul, which is immortal, is presented before God and, according to its actions, pre-enjoys happiness or pre-suffers punishment until the General Judgement. Agreed. The term immortal above is correct. Eternal is an incorrect term for the soul's existence, as many people use it. Only God is eternal.
11. That of all saints, the Mother of God has a supreme grace, and that the veneration given to icons and relics relates not to the sacred images as such, but to the person whom they represent. Veneration is OK. But to pray to, or in the name of, is idolatry.
12. That God knows which road man will take, but He does not predestine him. Not sure. I believe in free will, with limitations, but my belief is not strong here.
As you can see, I accept only the authority of Jesus Christ, as head of His Church, and as revealed in Holy Scriptures, in determining doctrine, and do not recognize manmade doctrine.
Eastern Orthodoxy believes:
1. That there are three Divine Persons in God, distinct, yet equal. Agreed.
2. That the Father is the head of the Trinity, neither begotten, nor proceeds from anyone.
Contradicts #1 above. How can the Father be the head and yet also equal? Do you mean equal ontologically, or that the Son and Holy Spirit are less equal or subservient when performing redemptive work?
3. That the Son is begotten from the Father, of the very same essence (omo'ousios) of the Father. He is God and also truly Man like us, because He assumed human nature from the Blessed Virgin Mary, except for sin. He died on the Cross to save mankind, and He ascended into Heaven. He will come again to "judge the living and the dead". Agreed.
4. That the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Not sure.
5. That the world is not self-created but is the work of one God. Agreed.
6. That there are Seven Sacraments: Baptism, Holy Chrismation, Holy Eucharist, Holy Confession, Ordination, Marriage, and Holy Unction. Those not highlighted in orange are manmade additions.
Also, baptism need not be performed by ordained priests as it is done "in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit", by anyone who is in a saved relationship with Christ and is therefore a saint in His Church. The power thus comes from the Trinity, and not from the person performing the rite, just as the apostles who were sent out to heal in Jesus' name did it by Jesus' power, and not their own. The same is true for Communion. Marriage is not a sacrament.
The other sacraments were not authorized by Christ, and were added to increase the power and prestige of the priesthood. These other sacrament did not come to be clearly established until Gregory I (590-604) (beginning with penance) and is nowhere found in the early church.
7. That no one can be saved unless he is baptized. Agreed.
8. That the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition are of equal value, and that they complete each other. Disagree. Holy Scriptures superior to tradition in determining Truth.
9. That God assigned to every man an Angel to guide and help him. Not biblical. Why would this angel allow someone to die in a car accident? Why does this angel not instruct everyone in the Gospel, including atheists? I guess we don't need your church after all! Angels are messengers, not guides.
10. That after death, man's body goes to earth, and the soul, which is immortal, is presented before God and, according to its actions, pre-enjoys happiness or pre-suffers punishment until the General Judgement. Agreed. The term immortal above is correct. Eternal is an incorrect term for the soul's existence, as many people use it. Only God is eternal.
11. That of all saints, the Mother of God has a supreme grace, and that the veneration given to icons and relics relates not to the sacred images as such, but to the person whom they represent. Veneration is OK. But to pray to, or in the name of, is idolatry.
12. That God knows which road man will take, but He does not predestine him. Not sure. I believe in free will, with limitations, but my belief is not strong here.
As you can see, I accept only the authority of Jesus Christ, as head of His Church, and as revealed in Holy Scriptures, in determining doctrine, and do not recognize manmade doctrine.
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Scripture doesn't say that there are only two sacraments, baptism and Holy Eucharist, so you are accepting that man-made tradition of two sacraments only above what the Scripture says.
Your doctrine is manmade, as you reject what Scripture says about Holy Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15) and the Church, not the Scripture, being the Pillar and Ground of the Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
If you really accepted the authority only of Jesus Christ, you would accept His Church. You don't know what His Church is. You think the Church didn't come around till about 1517 AD.
No, I believe that the Church began on Pentecost, as recorded in Acts 2.
Ephesians 2: 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. [not through the EOC] 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
What part of the above do you not understand? The Church of Christ is the temple and dwelling of God Himself. We are the Church of Christ, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone. And we have their words recorded in Holy Scriptures to guide us unto His Truths. It is this where I place my trust, not in a manmade church, which uses sacraments and liturgy to substitute for a life of worship in which we come to know Christ personally by seeking His will in the fellowship of love to one another.
John 13: 34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." [Not that you are EOC]
It is you, and your apophatic theology, who do not understand the nature of Christ, or His Church.
Ephesians 2: 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. [not through the EOC] 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
What part of the above do you not understand? The Church of Christ is the temple and dwelling of God Himself. We are the Church of Christ, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone. And we have their words recorded in Holy Scriptures to guide us unto His Truths. It is this where I place my trust, not in a manmade church, which uses sacraments and liturgy to substitute for a life of worship in which we come to know Christ personally by seeking His will in the fellowship of love to one another.
John 13: 34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." [Not that you are EOC]
It is you, and your apophatic theology, who do not understand the nature of Christ, or His Church.
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Don't you believe the Church that began at Pentecost kept the "faith once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3), and this Faith is the Eastern Orthodox Faith? Or did early Christianity fall into apostasy, and needed to be reformed in the 16th century to teach "faith alone" , that James 2:24 is the work of no apostle of Christ, but salvation (justification) is by only "faith alone"? It is possible not to love the EOC.
In John 15, Christ said His disciples would be hated, and His disciples believe that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father" (15:26). The people who say "and the Son" killed Orthodox Christians (Serbs) during World War II, the Roman Catholic Fascists Croatian Ustashe Nazis killed Orthodox Serbs. And Jews and Gypsies and other minorities. In 1472, Roman Catholics murdered Eastern Orthodox Christians. During the 16th century, Swedish Lutherans murdered Eastern Orthodox monks in an Orthodox monastery.
So, the Westerners may have loved each other, but they didn't always love the Eastern Orthodox.
Why is that?
I don't condone any such activities of persecution and genocide. However, you cannot characterize Protestantism by a few isolated incidents among people calling themselves Christians anymore than someone could say your family is not Christian because your uncle is living in adultery.
We are each individually responsible for our own sins, and the true Church of Christ is composed of those who are in a covenant relationship with Him, not those who CALL themselves Christians.
For example, after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, everyone who was a citizen became a Christian. Did that mean that they were part of the Church of Christ?
I perceive your history lesson as a diversion because your reasoning and logic falls short in this debate. But that is understandable. The EOC does not consider reason to be of any value on the stage of Truth. That is why most EOC priests do not carry bibles. Even though the Scriptures say that we are to love God with all our heart, soul, strength, and MIND, EOC do not consider the mind to be of any use in discovering truths. Because their church has already elucidated all of them.
It is sad that as westerners, we value reason, (in balance with Scripture, Tradition, and Experience), whereas easterners give it no value while stressing the "worship experience". Perhaps we both have extreme positions, and could learn from each other. But you are so sure that you are right, and hate Protestanism with such a passion, that you can see no middle ground. And by middle ground, I don't mean relativism, but a recognition of those things that we agree on, and an acceptance of diversity on those things that are nonessential to salvation.
You will be happy with nothing but unity under your terms. I, however, believe that if I have to give up the Truth to obtain unity, then that is too great a cost to pay.
We are each individually responsible for our own sins, and the true Church of Christ is composed of those who are in a covenant relationship with Him, not those who CALL themselves Christians.
For example, after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, everyone who was a citizen became a Christian. Did that mean that they were part of the Church of Christ?
I perceive your history lesson as a diversion because your reasoning and logic falls short in this debate. But that is understandable. The EOC does not consider reason to be of any value on the stage of Truth. That is why most EOC priests do not carry bibles. Even though the Scriptures say that we are to love God with all our heart, soul, strength, and MIND, EOC do not consider the mind to be of any use in discovering truths. Because their church has already elucidated all of them.
It is sad that as westerners, we value reason, (in balance with Scripture, Tradition, and Experience), whereas easterners give it no value while stressing the "worship experience". Perhaps we both have extreme positions, and could learn from each other. But you are so sure that you are right, and hate Protestanism with such a passion, that you can see no middle ground. And by middle ground, I don't mean relativism, but a recognition of those things that we agree on, and an acceptance of diversity on those things that are nonessential to salvation.
You will be happy with nothing but unity under your terms. I, however, believe that if I have to give up the Truth to obtain unity, then that is too great a cost to pay.
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Dear superdave:
Not so. How do you know what the EOC says about reason? Reason
enlightened by the Holy Spirit is helpful. Reason without the presence
of the Holy Spirit can be dangerous. The EOC does consider the mind
to be of some use in discovering truths. You have already decided the
EOC cannot be the true Church because of your personal traditions. I
do not hate Protestantism. I hate error. Not everything in Protestantism
is in error. The Lutheran tradition I grew up in recited the Nicene
Creed almost every Sunday. The only thing they got wrong in it was to
add the words "and the Son", and they did so in ignorance of the Truth
(the Truth of John 15:26). It is indeed too high a price to pay to give
up the Truth that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. And
that man has free will and is therefore responsible for what he does.
Luther denied human free will, and his view was very similar to Calvin's
predestinationism, minus the double predestination, Luther denied
people have any freedom. He denied his followers any freedom to
dissent from his doctrine of "faith alone". On his word alone.
Orthodox priests do carry the Bible, or part of it, the Gospel book.
Actually, the liturgy has several books. A book containing the Gospel
readings, the Gospel lectionary. And a book containing the NT Epistle
lectionary. If I am not mistaken. Again, I am new to Eastern
Orthodoxy, and I am not all that certain what is in the books I see them
reading from each Divine Liturgy.
And it is not true that everyone in the Orthodox Empire was a
Christian. Some probably remained unconverted, and there were a few
heretics, and a few Jews. The EOC did not force anyone to become a
Christian, believing in free will and human responsibility as the EOC
does. The EOC preached the Word of the Gospel and the use of
human mind in apprehending God's mysteries. But they remain God's
mysteries, not totally understandable by rationalism. The EOC believes
in reason. Protestantism and Catholicism believe in rationalism,
figuring everything out with the finite human mind. Therefore, using
finite, fallible Augustinian-Platonic reasoning (rationalism), they
believe in the Filioque because "it seems reasonable" to them. For
them, God is a good, rational Idea, not a Holy Trinity of Three Holy
Persons in One God Who is to be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth.
Both the Popes of Rome and the Protestant Reformers believe in private
judgment. Not in the Public Witness, Public Sacred Tradition, in the
Public Divine Liturgy. All are called to receive Christ by the Gospel, but
only those who believe the Orthodox Faith and repent and confess their
sins are eligible for baptism, chrismation, and Holy Eucharist.
I am sure I am still wrong about many things. I still sin. My mind is far
from pure in heart, that is Orthodox in every thought. My deeds are
still far from pure and holy in all things. I am sure the Orthodox Faith
is True and Right and that is all. Not that I myself am right. I am just
not telling any lie when I say the Orthodox Faith is the Truth. The
Orthodox Faith contains many teachings, including all of the Bible, Holy
Tradition, and the Nicene Creed without the words "And the Son", and
the canons of the 7 ecumenical councils.
God save us. God bless you. It is indeed possible for Protestants to be
saved. And I hate heresies, not Protestantism. I only hate Protestant
heresies, not Protestant true doctrines, of which there are several.
God bless all of us. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington PS What
you said was 100 percent true: We are individually responsible for our
own sins, each one of us.
Dear MaggieMye:
We are saved by both faith and baptism:
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. ... For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:5, 16 KJV
Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned". Mark 16:16 KJV
In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington
It is good that we agree on some things. There are differences of thinking between the western world and the eastern world that make it difficult to understand each other. I believe it is worth the effort to try and agree, and if that is not possible, to at least understand the reasons for the disagreement. This is only possible when opposing positions are fairly represented and viewed objectively, to the extent possible.