Saved by Works

[Laodicea]

Haz just curious as to how you see these two verses:~
1. 1 John 2:1 says "These things I write unto you that ye sin not.
2. 1 John 3:4 Sin is transgression of the Law.

Those texts are telling us that God's purpose for us is to keep His Law the 10 commandments. Since you seem to be always against anything to do with keeping His law it looks like you want to be saved then go on living a life of sin? That is what comes across from what you teach being always against keeping His law.

 

[haz]

Haz just curious as to how you see these two verses:~
1. 1 John 2:1 says "These things I write unto you that ye sin not.
2. 1 John 3:4 Sin is transgression of the Law.

Those texts are telling us that God's purpose for us is to keep His Law the 10 commandments. Since you seem to be always against anything to do with keeping His law it looks like you want to be saved then go on living a life of sin? That is what comes across from what you teach being always against keeping His law.

Our differing perspectives influence how we perceive what each other says.
I can assure I am not saying that because Christians cannot be charged with "sin" that it means we can indulge in any selfish behavior that we desire. Christians will not profit when they do wrong. But neither are they charged with sin (and remember the wages of sin is death).

Regarding those scriptures you quoted, please consider 1John 3:9, we "cannot sin" and 1Pet 4:1, we've "ceased from sin". Also Rom 8:33: "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

Christians cannot be charged with sin. We're justified by God.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We are not under the law for righteousness, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18.
We abide in Christ and in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5,6.

So how does one "sin"?
Gal 2:18
if I build again the things which I destroyed (works of the law for righteousness), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER

It's those who turn to the law (even mixing grace with works of the law) who are sinning. They bring themselves under the law arguing that through faith God can enable them to keep (perfectly) the law. Of course they fail to keep it perfectly, thus they are transgressor/sinners.
They determine righteousness by works of the law and in doing so they deny that faith is counted for righteousness. They are then in the sin of unbelief (John 16:9).

And yes, sin is transgression of the law. And that applies to those under the law.
Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

And again I'll mention that believers are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9, Gal 3:25).

Our faith is counted for righteousness instead, Rom 4:5.
And as we have imputed righteousness we cannot be charged with sin.

As for that imperfect physical part of us that is already dead, by faith.
Rom 8:10
if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin

As it's already dead (by faith) because of sin, why would you then determine one's righteousness by it's behavior?

 

[Laodicea]

Notice this verse:~
*[[Eze 18:24]] KJV* But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

 

[loveme1]

Our differing perspectives influence how we perceive what each other says.
I can assure I am not saying that because Christians cannot be charged with "sin" that it means we can indulge in any selfish behavior that we desire. Christians will not profit when they do wrong. But neither are they charged with sin (and remember the wages of sin is death).

Regarding those scriptures you quoted, please consider 1John 3:9, we "cannot sin" and 1Pet 4:1, we've "ceased from sin". Also Rom 8:33: "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

Christians cannot be charged with sin. We're justified by God.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We are not under the law for righteousness, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18.
We abide in Christ and in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5,6.

So how does one "sin"?
Gal 2:18
if I build again the things which I destroyed (works of the law for righteousness), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER

It's those who turn to the law (even mixing grace with works of the law) who are sinning. They bring themselves under the law arguing that through faith God can enable them to keep (perfectly) the law. Of course they fail to keep it perfectly, thus they are transgressor/sinners.
They determine righteousness by works of the law and in doing so they deny that faith is counted for righteousness. They are then in the sin of unbelief (John 16:9).

And yes, sin is transgression of the law. And that applies to those under the law.
Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

And again I'll mention that believers are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9, Gal 3:25).

Our faith is counted for righteousness instead, Rom 4:5.
And as we have imputed righteousness we cannot be charged with sin.

As for that imperfect physical part of us that is already dead, by faith.
Rom 8:10
if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin

As it's already dead (by faith) because of sin, why would you then determine one's righteousness by it's behavior?

Galatians 2 if one reads the chapter they will see what is law is being spoken of.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Once again you quote verse 10 but in context much insight is to be had.

Romans 8

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

haz, you are using scripture to support a false Gospel.

We are to adhere to the words of the Messiah Yahshua who teaches us to keep and teach the Commandments of God.

If you then proceed to use Scripture against this teaching you are not Faithful to the Messiah's Words.

I noticed you quote John 6:29 in a previous post, now continuing reading through and see that it is the Words of the Messiah that give life

John 6

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[SUP]29[/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]I am that bread of life.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
[SUP]51 [/SUP]I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
[SUP]52 [/SUP]The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
[SUP]53 [/SUP]Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[SUP]55 [/SUP]For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[SUP]56 [/SUP]He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
[SUP]58 [/SUP]This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
[SUP]59 [/SUP]These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
[SUP]60 [/SUP]Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
[SUP]61 [/SUP]When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
[SUP]62 [/SUP]What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
[SUP]63[/SUP]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So to believe on is to adhere to the Words He spoke to us for they are spirit and they are life.

Luke 11

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Never to forget that the 10 Commandments are the tenor and that our Righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees.

Love and Forgiveness brings to life the 10 Commandments.

 

[haz]

Notice this verse:~
*[[Eze 18:24]] KJV* But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Physical Israel was given the law, and they're an example to all mankind.
They sought righteousness by works of the law, and failed to attain it, Rom 9:31.
Hence we see the law was a tutor to lead man to Christ, that we might be justified by faith, Gal 3:24.
And after faith has come we're no longer under a tutor/the law, Gal 3:25.

Eze 18:24 confirms Rom 3:19 that under the law all the world becomes guilty before God.

Eze 18:24 also confirms Gal 2:18:
if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness through works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner.

Eze 18:24 also confirms Heb 10:26.
if we sin wilfully (Gal 2:18 turning back to works of the law to determine righteousness) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

If someone has received Christ/believing the gospel, their faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
But if such a righteous person willfully turns away from their imputed righteousness through seeking to establish righteousness by works of the law, they make themselves a transgressor/sinner (Gal 2:18). They willfully sin after having the knowledge of the truth of the gospel of grace. For them there is no more sacrifice for their sins. They are like the dog returning to it's vomit,.

2Pet 2:21,22
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment (believe in Jesus) delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

We simply cannot mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6. That is being lukewarm and results in damnation, Rev 3:15,16.

 

[haz]

haz, you are using scripture to support a false Gospel.

We are to adhere to the words of the Messiah Yahshua who teaches us to keep and teach the Commandments of God.

If you then proceed to use Scripture against this teaching you are not Faithful to the Messiah's Words.

I noticed you quote John 6:29 in a previous post, now continuing reading through and see that it is the Words of the Messiah that give life
John 6
So to believe on is to adhere to the Words He spoke to us for they are spirit and they are life.
Luke 11
Never to forget that the 10 Commandments are the tenor and that our Righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees.
Love and Forgiveness brings to life the 10 Commandments.

We disagree unfortunately.

Christians obey his commandments to believe in Jesus and love one another, 1John 3:23.

But you follow a doctrine that mixes works of the law with grace. Those who follow doctrines of works of the law are rejecting that faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

 

[loveme1]

1 John 3

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
[SUP]10[/SUP]In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
[SUP]18 [/SUP]My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

We are to believe and we are to love that is true, but it is not the only things commanded of us but part of the Truth as is Keeping the Commandments of God.

 

[Grandpa]

The gospel is to work from the inside out. A true christian will be one in heart not just have an outward show as did the Pharisees.

What do you think of Romans 3?

Romans 3:19-26
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21[/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do you think of Romans 3?

Romans 3:19-26
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21[/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

some people do not understand the term justified by faith. through the redemption of christ.

they want it to be justified through good works. through the redemption of self.

it is a sad world we live in

 

[Grandpa]

some people do not understand the term justified by faith. through the redemption of christ.

they want it to be justified through good works. through the redemption of self.

it is a sad world we live in

It is amazing that the Lord uses all of us and our sometimes whacked out opinions for His Purpose.

The Law is the tutor that brings us to Christ. So all these people that preach law, law, law are doing the Lords Will.

All of us who are showing that the law is the way to faith in Christ are doing the Lords Will.

This is how all things work for the good for those that Love God and are called according to His purpose.

I don't always see it this way but I try...

 

[Ciscokid]

Laodicea "We are not saved by our works but, by His works, all we can do is to surrender and let Him work in us"
I think I would have chosen a better handle than Laodicea---??? LOL )) Anyways---It's NOT a question of whether we are saved by works--cuz--we are saved by works. Namely,the work done at Calvary. I hope we can all agree that Calvary is the work of God.The Bible says unless we repent we shall all perish. Scripturally we cannot be saved UNLESS we repent. Now, the definition of work, is a deed, effort or an action. IF-- we repent, i.e. ask God to forgive us of our sins, then whose work are we doing??? Our work, or Gods work.?? Is repentance a work of God or a work of man??? Scripturally, we ARE doing a WORK WHEN WE REPENT --BUT___its a work that God himself COMMANDED us to do. Therefore, bc we obeyed the scriptures and DID the WORK that God commanded--then God imputes OUR obedience as RIGHTEOUNESS. Reference the scriptures, WHEN we OBEY the scriptures, (obedience is a work, a deed, an ACTION) then God imputes our obedience as RIGHTEOUNESS. Able, Abraham, Noah are ecamples of how God looks at OBEDIANCE.

 

[Ciscokid]

1 John 3

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

We are to believe and we are to love that is true, but it is not the only things commanded of us but part of the Truth as is Keeping the Commandments of God.

Right, and He commanded us to REPENT. Repentance is a WORK----a work that God has commanded us to OBEY.Is repentance a work of God or a work of man??? Quote"[SUP]24 [/SUP]And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."
Obedience and REPENTANCE are works God has commanded. They are NOT our works --never the less they ARE works. Just as BAPTISM IS A WORK that God has commanded.