Once saved always saved.

[Laodicea]

Originally Posted by shroom2

Saul had holy spirit upon him, not born within him. Big difference. People with spirit upon them could lose it. People with it born within them are born of it, born again. Saul was not born again.

Can you show some Bible to support that?

Originally Posted by StephenDC

The problem is, "feel" is a pretty weird translation here. The word, in the Greek, is φρονεῖν -- it means the kind of thinking that you do that's linked viscerally to your belief. It's like saying that you know something, and deep down in your gut, you know it to be true.

Oddly enough, this is the only place that φρονεῖν is translated as "feel"; usually, it's translated as "know". This same word is used in Philippians 2:2 ("of the same mind" and "united in one purpose").

So... I'm not sure it takes on the connotation that you want it to have, that Paul is just saying that he offhandedly "feels" that it might be so...

Then why not just translate it as "know"? I'm sure the translators of these bibles would love to solidify their doctrines, assuming most of them are Calvinists (again I'm assuming they are). The fact that your saying in every other place it is translated as "know" yet in here it is "feels", and virtually EVERY bible translation says something similar (or at least none gives a definitive "know"). Doesnt that suggest that it shouldn't be "know"?

And I don't twist scripture in order to make it say what I "want" it to say, I'm being genuine.

[shroom2]

Originally Posted by Laodicea

Can you show some Bible to support that?

Moses and the 70
Num 11:17) And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

Saul
1 Sam 10:6) And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

1 Sam 16:14) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul...

David, after he sinned w/Bathsheba
Ps 51:11) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Since the day of pentecost, when a person acts on Rom 10:9, holy spirit is born within.
1 Pet 1:23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1 Cor 3:15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rom 8:
38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[StephenDC]

Originally Posted by HhhLGA89

virtually EVERY bible translation says something similar (or at least none gives a definitive "know").

KJV: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all
ISV: For it is only right for me to think this way about all of you
ASV: even as it is right for me to be thus minded on behalf of you all
Douay-Rheims: As it is meet for me to think this for you all
Young's Literal: according as it is righteous for me to think this in behalf of you all

None of these suggest a "feeling", but rather, a belief that Paul is consciously holding.

Doesnt that suggest that it shouldn't be "know"?

It's difficult to translate phronein into English, since the Greek conception of knowledge is so different from ours. In this case, it's knowledge that one holds internally, having pondered it in one's mind and been convicted of it "in one's belly", as it were.

The Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary says this about it: "to think this-to have the prayerful confidence I expressed (Php 1:4-6)"

And I don't twist scripture in order to make it say what I "want" it to say, I'm being genuine.

Sorry -- I don't mean to say that you're trying to twist Scripture; just that your interpretation of this word, in this verse, in this context ... is a little far afield from what Paul seems to be saying here.

[Red33]

Originally Posted by Zilla64007

Philetus, Alexander, Hymenaeus, Demas, and King Saul

You live in confusion and with your own thoughts and that is not a good place to live. You have not been taught the word and doctrine by a pastor-teacher that God has raised up in the church and you have many strange conclusions from those thoughts and imaginations that come from your own heart.

[B2012]

hi
I just saw your profile as am browsing now in christain chat and i like it so deside to know you through my email (abibahqueen@live.com) am Dr Abibah by name i will also tell you
more of me,
cheers!!!!

[Consumed]

Originally Posted by SantoSubito

I'm just going to say this argument really makes no sense to me. Obviously I don't have anything vested in it since salvation to me is a process and not an event.

isnt santification the process?? salvation came at repentance for whomsoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved - hmmm process??

[Zilla64007]

Originally Posted by Red33

You live in confusion and with your own thoughts and that is not a good place to live. You have not been taught the word and doctrine by a pastor-teacher that God has raised up in the church and you have many strange conclusions from those thoughts and imaginations that come from your own heart.

you say i got this from a pastor...

i got this from the Bible, not a pastor... Mr Calvinist

[Red33]

Originally Posted by Zilla64007

you say i got this from a pastor...

i got this from the Bible, not a pastor... Mr Calvinist

Even in reading a simple post you have this tendency of getting it wrong because of your premise for what you believe about the nature of God and your rejection of those that God calls and gives to the church to preach the word and to teach sound doctrine so that believers are not tossed about by every wind of strange doctrine. Every believer must learn from those that God has raised up to teach and from the testimony of a local body of believers that live by the word and are filled with the Spirit, that salvation is kept by the power of God through the Spirit and the promise of God and not by the efforts of the believer to maintain it through the flesh through some religious rite or practice. Salvation is of God not of us and because he is the author of it, He is the one that keeps it. We cooperate with God and His plan by faith and keep ourselves in a place to receive the word so that we can walk in the light and grow in grace and knowledge of Christ as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, totally relying upon and trusting in the promises of God and the person of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Consumed]

Originally Posted by Red33

God calls and gives to the church to preach the word and to teach sound doctrine so that believers are not tossed about by every wind of strange doctrine..

even though i whole heartedly agree with God giving teachers to teach sound doctrine but really, today how many actual churches do brother

and yes i go to church

Originally Posted by StephenDC

KJV: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all
ISV: For it is only right for me to think this way about all of you
ASV: even as it is right for me to be thus minded on behalf of you all
Douay-Rheims: As it is meet for me to think this for you all
Young's Literal: according as it is righteous for me to think this in behalf of you all

None of these suggest a "feeling", but rather, a belief that Paul is consciously holding.

I still don't see what difference you think there is in these other versions. Now instead of feel they put "think". To me this conveys even a more certain uncertainness in Paul's mind. However, I don't think it is a weak feeling but a very strong one.

Originally Posted by StephenDC

The Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary says this about it: "to think this-to have the prayerful confidence I expressed (Php 1:4-6)".

"to have the prayerful confidence I expressed" is not to say that they know %120, absoultely, without a doubt. Do understand what I'm trying to say?

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

Originally Posted by Consumed

even though i whole heartedly agree with God giving teachers to teach sound doctrine but really, today how many actual churches do brother

and yes i go to church

Only one, the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is the only non-heretical Church. All of the Sainted Teachers of this Church are God-bearing, filled with the gift of Wisdom and Discernment. If you want to read some true teachers, read the writings of St John Chrysostom or of St Athanasius, or of St John of Damascus, all of which are just a fraction of the Divine Councils of the Church.

Remember what St Paul said in the Timothy letter:


1Ti 6:3 1Ti 6:3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."






The Apostle Paul is not say that the Holy Scripture is the "Wholesome Words"(1Tim 6:3), and the "Doctrine which is according to Godliness"(1Tim 6:3), because he would have mentioned them like he does a little later in he same letter(2Tim 3:16). Since he did not mention Holy Scripture, he is talking about the Divine Councils of the Saints. They wrote huge amounts of work. You can read many of them online here: Early Church Fathers | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

[Jullianna]

Originally Posted by jj408

Is is it true that once you are saved you are always saved ?

I usually avoid the OSAS merry-go-round like the plague, as theologians cannot agree on this, even within their own denominations; so I can’t imagine it being settled in a chat forum. Because of some things you said in another thread and in understanding the concerns you have expressed, you have been heavily on my heart.

The thing is, we are saved by FAITH, not by questioning our salvation or by doubt. God IS faithful. When we become concerned or confused about a thing, oftentimes it is best to return to the root of it, especially if we have concerns that we might be among those crying, “Lord, Lord” without truly knowing Him. If we think we might have taken a wrong turn, it’s OK to change course or go back to the sure starting place. In that vein, I offer you this:


Acts 2

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:
“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[e]
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[f]
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

If there is ANY doubt in your heart and mind whatsoever, and there certainly seems to be, don’t stew/wonder about it or inquire of other mortals, seek GOD. Do the things you did in the beginning….repent, pray, read the Word, spend time with HIM, PRAISE Him, listen for His voice and His leading and ask Him to kindled the fire of first love in you spoken of in Rev 2:4. Once this is done, you will KNOW deep in your knower that you belong to Him. You will have moved from having an amount of faith, to believing, to KNOWING that you are saved.
Don’t let fear cripple your walk. His perfect love casts out all fear. Draw close to Him, let Him answer your questions and allow Him to renew all that you are into all of Him.

1 John 4:18 - There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has to do with punishment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

I’ve been praying for you, brother.

[Zilla64007]

Originally Posted by Red33

Even in reading a simple post you have this tendency of getting it wrong because of your premise for what you believe about the nature of God and your rejection of those that God calls and gives to the church to preach the word and to teach sound doctrine so that believers are not tossed about by every wind of strange doctrine. Every believer must learn from those that God has raised up to teach and from the testimony of a local body of believers that live by the word and are filled with the Spirit, that salvation is kept by the power of God through the Spirit and the promise of God and not by the efforts of the believer to maintain it through the flesh through some religious rite or practice. Salvation is of God not of us and because he is the author of it, He is the one that keeps it. We cooperate with God and His plan by faith and keep ourselves in a place to receive the word so that we can walk in the light and grow in grace and knowledge of Christ as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, totally relying upon and trusting in the promises of God and the person of our Lord Jesus Christ.

and i guess to you, the only one who got it right was that murderer, John Calvin
this is the problem with Calvininsm.

it teaches if it can be lost, then it MUST be a works salvation!...

salvation is by faith alone, not by works... but it is kept through faith. (1 Peter 1:5). the Word calls us to keep ourselves in His love (Jude 21) why would we have to keep ourselves if God already does the keeping, like OSAS teaches?
if we stop believing for good, we no longer have that gift.
why do you think Jesus tells us only those who remain in Him are the branches?

[eternally-gratefull]

Originally Posted by Zilla64007

and i guess to you, the only one who got it right was that murderer, John Calvin
this is the problem with Calvininsm.

it teaches if it can be lost, then it MUST be a works salvation!...

salvation is by faith alone, not by works... but it is kept through faith. (1 Peter 1:5). the Word calls us to keep ourselves in His love (Jude 21) why would we have to keep ourselves if God already does the keeping, like OSAS teaches?
if we stop believing for good, we no longer have that gift.
why do you think Jesus tells us only those who remain in Him are the branches?

is eternal life eternal or conditional?

If it is conditional or works. it is not eternal
if it is conditional on us continuing to have faith (even that of a mustard seed) it is conditional..

If it can be lost for ANY reason, it is not eternal and God lied.

Paul says we are sealed with the HS of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance (eternal life) until the day of redemption. If this guarantee and seal does not last until this day, and can be broken. then God lied.

A person can be saved and not produce fruit. A baby tree does not produce fruit. A prodigal son would not produce fruit for God, yet he is still the son. Scripture even teaches that there will be people in heaven who get no reward, there reward being "burned" yet he himself still saved, as though through fire. Being cut off does not necessarily mean we lost salvation. We do however lose our ability to work and produce fruit. And w elose blessings not only on earth, But I believe in heaven. Many die after this happened before the chastening of the HS worked (I believe God even took many home) but they still were chastened. proving they were still Gods children

The problem with ANTI OSAS teaching of ANY TYPE, is that it teaches salvation must be earned. No matter what causes the earning, from the roman catholic church and their many sacraments. to the smallest of churches who states just abide in Christ forever and you will not lose it. If salvation must be earned by any reason, It is not of grace, it is to recieve reward, by doing works. So anyone who does not believe in OSAS believes in a works based Gospel. it gets no clearer than this.

the fact is, no matter how hard we try, no matter how many works we do, we will never be able to earn salvation.

I know many people who claim they lost faith in CHrist. and do not think they are saved, or walk away. But of the many I know. They did not stay away long. For you see they never lost faith completely, their faith because very small. Yet God said faith as small as even a mustard seed can move mountains. So according to us, it looks like they lost faiht. but did they lose salvic faith? And who are we to judge?

[Zilla64007]

then to you, eternallygrateful, FAITH IS A WORK!

"wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4)

faith has never been and never will be a work.

[eternally-gratefull]

Originally Posted by Zilla64007

then to you, eternallygrateful, FAITH IS A WORK!

"wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4)

faith has never been and never will be a work.

Um What????

Where did I say faith was a work?

Faith is not our work, It is Gods work. John 6 tells us this. "it is the work of God that you believe (have faith) in the one he sent.

Maybe you should reread what I posted!

[Zilla64007]

Ephesians tells us that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, and that SALVATION, not faith, is a gift from God
Faith is not a gift from God. We must have faith in order to be saved.

God commands us to continue in faith. Maybe you should stop reading a murderer's commentary, and read the Bible for a change

[Crossfire]

Regardless of what one's view might be on this controversial doctrine, rather than accept the word of another, why not do the research for yourselves and prayerfully make up your own minds. Study both the scriptures which people use to support the doctrine as well as the scriptures people use to argue against it. Make an informed, educated decision for yourself so on that day when you meet Jesus face to face to give an account of your life, right or wrong, you can do so with a clear conscience.

In my personal opinion, both sides make very valid points that need to be taken into deep consideration. Whichever position you choose to uphold, I have no doubt that in doing so not only will you grow in faith concerning your own beliefs but also you will grow in compassion and understanding toward the other side as well.

[Zilla64007]

I've done that in my life, crossfire, and it's led mento believe that Calvinism is a gross and unscriptiral Hermeneutic, and no only makes God the Author of Sin, but also leads Christians to fall away into Antinomianism.

I have no compassion to Calvinism... I do have compassion for the Calvinist... even though Calvinists jump at every chance they get to call anyone that disagrees with them either unsaved sinner or a heretic (RC Sproul, John Piper, etc)

They're en willing to falsely accuse others of believing something that they never believed in