Literal or symbolic?

[pickles]

Sorry about my spelling, always has been my weak point.
But the title speaks to the subject, question?
Ive seen some say that the Bible is symbolic, others literal.
Ive never really considered it being one only or the other, it has always been both to me.
Mostly because Ive always believed God Our Father is a God of truth, so His word is true literally, and also symbolicly, understood through His Holy Spirit.
Ive always see this as a way to know the scriptures to be true, as they hold truth in both the literal and symbolic, and agree.
But Im no scholor of scriptures, so I wanted to hear what others have to say.
As in reading the many posts here, I have wondered ?
What are your thoughts on this subject?
Maby one can better address this in truth.

Or is this another big debate best avoided?

God bless
pickles

 

[TheAristocat]

I've been wondering about something related, myself. We could start off the topic with this post I've had on the boards for a couple days now:

So I came upon Ezekiel 38:4-5. It reads:

I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets [...]

Now if this is end-time prophecy why is there mention of horses, horsemen, shields and swords? I can wrap my head around the fact that helmets are mentioned and even the mentioning of shields. But horsemen? And swords?


Now granted, God could have spoken through a prophet in terms people could understand, but couldn't he have also used more generic terms such as "weapons" instead of swords that no longer seem applicable today? This is something I've wondered about for a long time.


There are other prophecies that speak of chariots, but we do not use chariots today. The only reference to chariots I can think of is to the Israeli main battle tank which is called a Mirkavah (i.e. chariot).


But the language of this prophecy in Ezekiel is very specific and seems less symbolic than it does literal. Why would they be portrayed as brandishing a sword if a sword were an armored vehicle, aircraft, etc? Could it be an assault rifle? I just don't understand.


And please don't think I haven't stopped to consider its metaphorical weight. There is obvious symbolic language in the beginning of the passage. But I have tried to wrap my head around the reason why this passage would go into such detail about supposed symbols. I just can't do it on my own. Brandishing swords? Wielding both large and small shields? So how does one interpret a passage so explicitly literal?


There is just one idea I can think up, and that is this: why are the horses separated from the horsemen here? Is this typical of prophecies spoken of during a time when horsemen were still often used in warfare? If not then why are the horses and horsemen separated from each other? Literal horsemen cannot be horsemen without horses. And why have a surplus of horses with an army if these are literal?


Your thoughts?

 

[pickles]

Yup! You gave a great example of what I was asking in this post.
One thing I do understand is that translation has alot to do with what is said.
If there is no word known at that time other than the one gven, then one has to question the actual word given at that time and its meaning.
Ive seen many discuss this.
I look as well to psalm 91, where it says God is Our buckler and sheild.
Literally God is not a metal sheild, but how would one best describe the protection of God at that time?
Even today, we refrance items to describe what words cannot properly address.
A person today might say they were as tired as a horse.
So, symbolic in some scripture is nessasary to descritption.
And as in spalm 91, one can see the literal as the symbolic being one.
But how does this apply to the prophacy you posted?
It does cause one to question how the words in the prophacy were revelant in that day when written?

God bless
pickles

 

[TheAristocat]

Yup! You gave a great example of what I was asking in this post.
One thing I do understand is that translation has alot to do with what is said.
If there is no word known at that time other than the one gven, then one has to question the actual word given at that time and its meaning.
Ive seen many discuss this.
I look as well to psalm 91, where it says God is Our buckler and sheild.
Literally God is not a metal sheild, but how would one best describe the protection of God at that time?
Even today, we refrance items to describe what words cannot properly address.
A person today might say they were as tired as a horse.
So, symbolic in some scripture is nessasary to descritption.
And as in spalm 91, one can see the literal as the symbolic being one.
But how does this apply to the prophacy you posted?
It does cause one to question how the words in the prophacy were revelant in that day when written?

God bless
pickles

Thanks for the post, Pickles. I looked up Psalm 91, but unfortunately I did not see the reference to two different kinds of shields. It seems nitt-picky of me, but you have to wonder why God uses the language he does. Is it as arbitrary as human speech?

One of the problems I have with the passage in Ezekiel is that when weapons are described symbolically they are often done so by reference to "teeth" or lone references to "the sword" - not necessarily with references to swords as accompanied by other specific types of equipment such as bucklers and larger shields as well as helmets. I mean, doesn't that just seem very literal to you and not symbolic? And if so what is such language doing in a prophecy about a time that is yet to come in the future?

 

[pickles]

Thanks for the post, Pickles. I looked up Psalm 91, but unfortunately I did not see the reference to two different kinds of shields. It seems nitt-picky of me, but you have to wonder why God uses the language he does. Is it as arbitrary as human speech?

One of the problems I have with the passage in Ezekiel is that when weapons are described symbolically they are often done so by reference to "teeth" or lone references to "the sword" - not necessarily with references to swords as accompanied by other specific types of equipment such as bucklers and larger shields as well as helmets. I mean, doesn't that just seem very literal to you and not symbolic? And if so what is such language doing in a prophecy about a time that is yet to come in the future?

I might be wrong as to the psalm number, but I thought it was 91 mayby it was 96, it had to do with Gods protection.
I will remember the message, but I always struggle with numbers and names.
Prophacy has always been difficult for me, mostly because of the reasons you spoke to.
But I have often wondered if we might just be relying on such things again simply because we have caused so much damage to the world, or in war, one has to consider this possibuility as well.
I often wish I knew how people spoke in those days, what one said to describe the challanges or daily things of life.
I am reading the ot again just for this perpose, to understand God better, and the people of those days.
Of course it all depends of what God reviels, but that is also our best help in any understanding given.
One may wonder as well as to what names may be given to weapons in the future, we have a car called a mustang.
I have often considered that much is written as it is, so that the truth may only be given to those nin Jesus, so satan will not decieve.

God bless
pickles

 

[TheAristocat]

One may wonder as well as to what names may be given to weapons in the future, we have a car called a mustang.

True. I think the prophecies are written for those in the time to which they pertain so that they can look at them and understand them if they want. Maybe this is just not the time to which this prophecy pertains. In fact we were just talking about this in chat - how every generation since the time of Christ has thought that the completion of all prophecies would happen in their time.

Maybe these will be light sabers then? I guess it's difficult to know for certain what's going on specifically. After all, lion's teeth in the sense of weapons doesn't tell us a lot in my opinion. If the weapons had been specified in such passages, then perhaps it would have only led to confusion.

 

[pickles]

I know, my mom spoke to how during the depression they thought it was the end times.
Funny thing is, before she passed she spoke alot about how these days were trully different, that many of the prophacies are real in our tme.
I always thought it was all alot of speculation about ten years ago.
But somehow, these days seem more true and real in what we were told to watch for, ,maby this is because I dont want the end times, and often try to dissmiss.
But , I cannot shake a sence of urgency and truth that is set on the heart.
I going to have to read the scriptures you shared here, somehow, Im beginning to understand it, but not compleatly yet.
Or maby its just very late for me.
Ill be interested in seeing what is posted tomorrow.
I need to get some sleep.

Good nite
God bless
pickles

 

[TheAristocat]

I know, my mom spoke to how during the depression they thought it was the end times.
Funny thing is, before she passed she spoke alot about how these days were trully different, that many of the prophacies are real in our tme.
I always thought it was all alot of speculation about ten years ago.
But somehow, these days seem more true and real in what we were told to watch for, ,maby this is because I dont want the end times, and often try to dissmiss.
But , I cannot shake a sence of urgency and truth that is set on the heart.
I going to have to read the scriptures you shared here, somehow, Im beginning to understand it, but not compleatly yet.
Or maby its just very late for me.
Ill be interested in seeing what is posted tomorrow.
I need to get some sleep.

Good nite
God bless
pickles

I do believe these times are more unique than any other time. One of the prophecies to come was an increase in knowledge and people rushing about the face of the earth. Of course in the past that would have held true, but it's particularly true of our time with computers and the internet to spread knowledge extremely fast and planes to convey people around the other side of the world in under a day. All of these are tremendous break-throughs in an otherwise stagnation of human science that lasted for thousands of years. Not only that but Israel has regathered as a nation. I do believe something is coming our way. But some of the signs are still at least years away from even beginning to become manifested. So we still have a while yet to wait.

Wish you a good night too.