Believers Will Escape God’s Wrath — Biblical Foreshadows of the Rapture

A-Omega · Mar 21, 2012

This article looks at 7 Biblical foreshadows of the Rapture in Bible prophecy that show that God always removes His people from harm when He is preparing to supernaturally punish the unbelieving heathen world.

Believers Will Escape God's Wrath -- Biblical Foreshadows of the Rapture | Beginning And End

jb · Mar 21, 2012

A-Omega said:

Sheer nonsense!

Rev 7v9,14 (with Rev9-17) states the following:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands... And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The Greek preposition used for 'out of' is 'ek' (Strong's NT:1537), the best way to describe the action of this prep. is if you draw a circle, the motion starts from a point inside the circle and travels outwards past the border of the circle. The Greek perposition 'apo' (Strong's NT:575) is not used (which would have been used if Christians were to miss the Great Tribulation), which means 'away from' and the best way to describe the action of this preposition is motion from a position starting immediately outside the circle and heading away from it.

To 'come out' of The Tribulation, the Great One (Greek 'teés thlípseoos teés megálees') one must first have to have been in it! These saints (Christians, ones who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb) have come through the Great Tribulation with an overcoming faith. They have 'come out' of it by either being martyred or by being raptured immediately after the Great Tribulation when Christ comes at the 7th Trumpet to not only destroy the wicked but to deliver His people. Matt 24v29-31 with Mark 13v37 (NOTE: Matt 24v29 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days...'). Thess 2v1-12, Rev 11v15-19.

Let me just reiterate that: there is NO such thing as a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture!

Yahweh Shalom...

Avinu · Mar 21, 2012

AMEN JB!

AS MOST OF US KNOW, 1 COR. 15:52 IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMPET.
FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED.

AND 1 THESS. 4:16-17 16) FOR THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF AN ARCH ANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMPET OF GOD.
AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17) THEN WE WHO ARE... ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. AND THUS WE SHALL ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD.

AS MOST OF US KNOW THAT THESE ARE 2 OF MOST USED AND FAVORITE PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE FOR PRE-TRIB EVIDENCE.

SO LETS LOOK AT 1 CORINTHIANS FIRST, IN IT, IT SAYS AT THE 'LAST' TRUMP. THE GREEK WORD FOR LAST IS 'ESCHATOS' WHICH MEANS, (FARTHEST, FINAL, LAST, UTTERMOST. SO HERE THIS VERSE SAYS AT THE FINAL TRUMP, THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE. HMMMM.

NOW LETS LOOK AT 1 THESS. IN VERSE 16, THE WORD DESCEND IN THE GREEK IS 'KATABAINO' MEANING TO COME DOWN FROM, SO THIS MEANS YESHUA IS COMING DOWN FROM. ALSO IN VERSE 16, "WITH A SHOUT" THE GREEK WORD 'KELEUMA' WHICH MEANS A CRY OF INCITEMENT' SO NOT A SILENT EVENT. V.17 "WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN" THE WORD REMAIN IN THE GREEK IS 'PERILEIPO' WHICH MEANS TO LEAVE ALL AROUND, SURVIVE' HMMM, WHO HAVE SURVIVED.

NOW LETS LOOK AT REV. 20:4-5 4)AND I SAW THRONES, AND THEY SAT ON THEM, AND JUDGEMENT WAS COMMITTED TO THEM. THEN I SAW THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN BEHEADED FOR THEIR WITNESS TO YESHUA AND FOR THE WORD OF YHVH, WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST OR HIS IMAGE, AND HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FORHEADS OR ON THEIR HANDS. AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YRS. 5) BUT THE REST OF THE DEADDID NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

SO HERE IN REVELATION 20 IT IS TELLING US THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED IN THE TRIBULATION AND DIDN'T TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST WERE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 THESS. 4 ABOUT THE DEAD WILL RISE FIRST, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 COR. 15 AT THE LAST TRUMP AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORUPTIBLE.
THE KEY HERE IS THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
THEN THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THERE COULDN'T BE A RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS BEFORE THE TRIB. IF THEY ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

WHICH WOULD THEN FOLLOW WITH HEBREWS 9:28 SO MESSIAH WAS OFFERED ONCE TO BEAR THE SINS OF MANY. TO THOSE WHO EAGERLY WAIT FOR HIM HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, APART FROM SIN, FOR SALVATION.

SO ALL THIS TELLS US THAT YESHUA WILL COME A SECOND TIME, AND THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS NOT UNTIL THOSE WHO ARE BEHEADED IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION. THAT MEANS THAT PRE-TRIB IS A LIE. SCRIPTURE BACKS UP SCRIPTURE, BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHINGS. SHALOM

Trax · Mar 21, 2012

jb said:

Well, since we aren't appointed unto God's wrath, that will poured out on all the world,
where we going to be?

Trax · Mar 21, 2012

Avinu said:

AMEN JB!

AS MOST OF US KNOW, 1 COR. 15:52 IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMPET.
FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED.

AND 1 THESS. 4:16-17 16) FOR THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF AN ARCH ANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMPET OF GOD.
AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17) THEN WE WHO ARE... ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. AND THUS WE SHALL ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD.

AS MOST OF US KNOW THAT THESE ARE 2 OF MOST USED AND FAVORITE PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE FOR PRE-TRIB EVIDENCE.

SO LETS LOOK AT 1 CORINTHIANS FIRST, IN IT, IT SAYS AT THE 'LAST' TRUMP. THE GREEK WORD FOR LAST IS 'ESCHATOS' WHICH MEANS, (FARTHEST, FINAL, LAST, UTTERMOST. SO HERE THIS VERSE SAYS AT THE FINAL TRUMP, THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE. HMMMM.

NOW LETS LOOK AT 1 THESS. IN VERSE 16, THE WORD DESCEND IN THE GREEK IS 'KATABAINO' MEANING TO COME DOWN FROM, SO THIS MEANS YESHUA IS COMING DOWN FROM. ALSO IN VERSE 16, "WITH A SHOUT" THE GREEK WORD 'KELEUMA' WHICH MEANS A CRY OF INCITEMENT' SO NOT A SILENT EVENT. V.17 "WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN" THE WORD REMAIN IN THE GREEK IS 'PERILEIPO' WHICH MEANS TO LEAVE ALL AROUND, SURVIVE' HMMM, WHO HAVE SURVIVED.

NOW LETS LOOK AT REV. 20:4-5 4)AND I SAW THRONES, AND THEY SAT ON THEM, AND JUDGEMENT WAS COMMITTED TO THEM. THEN I SAW THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN BEHEADED FOR THEIR WITNESS TO YESHUA AND FOR THE WORD OF YHVH, WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST OR HIS IMAGE, AND HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FORHEADS OR ON THEIR HANDS. AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YRS. 5) BUT THE REST OF THE DEADDID NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

SO HERE IN REVELATION 20 IT IS TELLING US THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED IN THE TRIBULATION AND DIDN'T TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST WERE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 THESS. 4 ABOUT THE DEAD WILL RISE FIRST, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 COR. 15 AT THE LAST TRUMP AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORUPTIBLE.
THE KEY HERE IS THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
THEN THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THERE COULDN'T BE A RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS BEFORE THE TRIB. IF THEY ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

WHICH WOULD THEN FOLLOW WITH HEBREWS 9:28 SO MESSIAH WAS OFFERED ONCE TO BEAR THE SINS OF MANY. TO THOSE WHO EAGERLY WAIT FOR HIM HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, APART FROM SIN, FOR SALVATION.

SO ALL THIS TELLS US THAT YESHUA WILL COME A SECOND TIME, AND THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS NOT UNTIL THOSE WHO ARE BEHEADED IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION. THAT MEANS THAT PRE-TRIB IS A LIE. SCRIPTURE BACKS UP SCRIPTURE, BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHINGS. SHALOM

You forgot a verse:
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Avinu · Mar 21, 2012

Shalom my friend. We will be in the same place Noah and his family were, in the same place Israel was in Goshen when the plagues desimated Egypt but didn't touch Israel. We will be wrapped in His wings, and under His protection. YHVH has NEVER raptured anyone out of anywhere ever in history, He is fully capable of bringing us through it without it touching us.

Psalm 91:7-8
Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

Trax · Mar 21, 2012

jb said:

No saints until Jesus came?

Trax · Mar 21, 2012

Avinu said:

You forgot this:
Rev 7:9-15 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (11) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, (12) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. (13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? (14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

No mention of the beast or beheading. Since the church age began, was the start of the great
tribulation. These people are before God, before the beast even arrives.

Avinu · Mar 21, 2012

Key word my friend, FROM the great tribulation, not BEFORE the great tribulation. Not to mention that the tribulation doesn't start until the middle of the 7 yr. deal. So that still shuts down pre-trib. And then ultimately, Rev. 20:4-5 finishes it all. To paraphrase 'those who are beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast nor worshiped his image are a part of the FIRST resurrection.' Can't have 2 first resurrections. Shalom

Trax · Mar 21, 2012

Avinu said:

So, you believe God will carry us to Petra but you reject Him carrying us to heaven?
You believe God will give us a holy umbrella, but wont just get us out of the way?
If you think the rapture wont happen, then believing something else is just "substitution."

Trax · Mar 21, 2012

Avinu said:

So, a time of Jacob's trouble will never happen? You see, that is what the "Jews" are going to
face, not the church. The problem with Rev, people forget the Jews even exists.
Prophecy concerned the Jews. The 144000 that are sealed, the woman clothed with sun and
moon,....you know, its refering to the Jews, not the church. The church was a mystery.
But, people want to claim the OT prophecy for the church. Rev, after chapter 3, is refering to
the Jews. There were saints on this earth before Jesus was born. Just because the word
"saint" is used, doesn't always mean "the church".

Avinu · Mar 21, 2012

Unless I'm mistaken Trax, you and I agree on most, so please don't let this rapture stuff get you irritated. YHVH's pattern of things is not to take people out of things, but to bring them through it. No substitution, I believe in His second coming as scripture ONLY speaks of.

I never said 'saints' only refered to the church. As I stated before, Rev. 20:4-5 puts major holes and disproves rapture all by itself.

Brother, I used to be a hardcore believer in the rapture, until I searched it out for myself and YHVH showed me with such clarity how false it really is. Shalom

jb · Mar 21, 2012

Trax said:

Your grasp of end time prophecy is just about NIL!

The letters to the seven churches are not prophecies of different periods of Church history, they are messages to each named individual church (which in the case cited above (Rev 3v10) is spoken by our great High Priest to the Church at Philadelphia). However, each letter to the churches has lessons for all of Christ's Church in all ages.

Rev 1v19 states:

'Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.'

The Lord Jesus Himself gives most important information to the structure and understanding of the Book of Revelation, He said that "the things which thou hast seen,” refer to Rev 1v9-20, “the things which are,” refer to the seven churches of Asia, in Rev chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation (John seems to have been the apostolic overseer of these seven churches after going to Ephesus in about A.D. 70) and “the things which shall be hereafter,” is said in Rev 4v1 to refer to the prophecies recorded in Rev 4v1 to 22v21. From Rev 4v1 to 19v21, it refers to a short period of time at the end of the age, which ends with the return of Jesus on the day of the Lord. There is a particular emphasis on the last 3½ years of this age; the period known as “The Great Tribulation.” Jer 30v7, Dan 12v1, Matt 24v15,21,29-31, Rev 7v14.

I also draw your attention to what Out Lord spoke in Rev 22v18,19:

"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

By adding a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture that is not in the Book of Revelation or taught anywhere else in the Scriptures you really will be in great trouble when you meet the Lord!

peterT · Mar 22, 2012

A-Omega said:

This is my understanding

Rv151 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

There we are, standing on the sea of glass, AFTER getting victory over the beast, AFTER getting victory over image, AFTER getting victory over his mark.

And then the 7 last plagues/ vials / wrath are poured out upon them that have the mark of the beast.

Rv16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

THE WRATH IS POURED OUT ON THE WICKED. So God hath not appointed us to wrath/ 7 last plagues;

Colossians 3:6 - the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness

THE WRATH IS POURED OUT ON THE WICKED. So God hath not appointed us to wrath.

But we will be going through the great tribulation and the seven trumpets. Which God will protect us from, as he did with the plagues of Egypt and the children of Israel, If we walk in his ways and be obedient.

Have you not read in the Bible about Moses and the Plagues of Egypt, how God will keep you safe if you obey.

Did God keep the children of Israel from the plagues of Egypt, or through the plagues Egypt?

Did God keep Noah from the flood or through the flood?

Did God keep Daniel from the liens or through the liens?

Did God keep Daniels friends from the fire or through the fire?

But saying all that, you still may have to die as a martyr for Christ by the hands of the AC and his forces.

But not all will die as it says

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

tribesman · Mar 22, 2012

jb said:

You got that one right.

Trax · Mar 22, 2012

Avinu said:

People get the wrong idea of the book of Rev, when they approach it with a gentile christian
mindset. After the letters, to the 7 churches, it deals with strictly Jews.

Now, you made the point of a "First Ressurection." Your interpretation, of that term is wrong,
and I will show it.

Rev 11:11-12 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. (12) And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Rev 11:11-12 is two people, ressurected from the dead, and took up into heaven. This happens
BEFORE Rev 20:5. So how can Rev 20:5 be a "first ressurection"? Rev 20:5, the "first
ressurection" isn't refering to the first time anyone is ressurected, since the two witnesses
predates it. The term "first ressurection" is a description to show what "TYPE" of ressurection.
The "First Ressurection" refers to people raised to life, while the "Second Ressurection"
refers being raised to judgement.

And those two witnesses were NOT the first time anyone was ressurected and taken to heaven.
"Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."
You got elders in heaven. How did they get there? You will most likely answer this as these
elders aren't real people, but they are symbols for the nation of Israel and the church.
How can there be a symbol, representing people in heaven, when no one has been raised yet?
Those elders represent the OT people. Do you want to see when they were raised?
Mat 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

If you have OT saints raised and taken to heaven and the two witnesses raised and taken to
heaven, why is it hard to accept the church is raised and taken to heaven, somewhere between
these two events?

John's first view of God's throne room, he saw 24 elders. Not people from different nations
and languages, but 24 elders. They were OT jews, or people along that line. This is a distinct
group. The second time he views God's throne room, there is a multitude of people from many
nations and languages. How did it grow from 24 elders to a multitude? Ok, John's 3rd
view of God's throne, he sees the 144,000, with the elders (Rev 14).

Then: Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

This is all BEFORE the Rev 20 first ressurection. Rev 20:5, Jesus is already back on the earth.
If no one has been raised and taken to heaven, then Rev 19:14 is a lie. And "Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with
ten thousands of his saints," would be a lie also.

The rapture is going to happen. He's already got the OT people there. He'll get the two
witnesses up thereas well. This isn't a difficult task for the Lord to get the church there.

peterT · Mar 23, 2012

Trax said:

They were the only ones that were resurrected at the last trumpet.

They were the only ones that were resurrected in the clouds.

They were the only ones that were resurrected after hear a voce.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It just happens that Jesus comes in the clouds. YES

It just happens that Jesus comes at the last trumpet. YES

It just happens that Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel..YES

It just happens that Jesus raises the dead first. YES

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised from the dead.

It just happens that the two end time prophets hear a voce saying come up hither.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised in the clouds.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised at the sound of the last trumpet.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are killed and raised at the end of the tribulation.

It just happens that Matt24 Jesus gathers his elect together Immediately after the tribulation.

All this is the first resurrection.

Trax said:

Yes it’s talking about the Jews, O ye of little faith.

Have you not read, he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly.

Have you not read, that circumcision is nothing?

Have you not read, one Spirit are we all, baptized into one body.

Have you not read, how He hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth.

Have you not read, they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Have you not read about Zacchaeus the publican and sinner, Jesus called him a son of Abraham.

O ye of little faith.

mpaper345 · Mar 23, 2012

When the wrath of God is poured upon the world,the saints will have been gathered unto Jesus before that so they will not be on earth.

But during the tribulation the wrath of God does not get poured upon the world,because God will allow the world 7 years to have their way and go against the truth,because God is allowing everyone who does not love Him follow the beast system and take the mark,so He can put them down.

So God will not violate that and pour out His wrath until after the 7 years is over,which when the beast speaks out against God and His tabernacle,he has power for three and a half years to continue,which means have his way without interference,and he can only have that power if God gives it to him.

That is why the last king casts the truth to the ground and stamps upon it,blasphemes God and His tabernacle,causes witchcraft to prosper on earth,and destroys the mighty and holy people,because God is allowing him to go against the truth and deceive all those who love not the truth.

The saints will be persecuted by the last king,the beast,for he makes war against the saints and prevails against them,and the saints are given in to his hands for three and one half years,because if God is allowing the beast to go against the truth,then the saints have to be on earth,or there is no truth to go against,for God will not give up the world until the world gives up on Him,so the truth must be on earth for the world to go against,so the saints have to be on earth.

The world can repent of their sins until they take the mark,so the world can still be saved for the first three and one half years,so the saints will be on earth,and when the beast goes against the truth the saints will have to be on earth,and when they shall scatter the power of the mighty and holy people then all things are finished.

Avinu · Mar 23, 2012

People get the wrong idea of the book of Rev, when they approach it with a gentile christian
mindset. After the letters, to the 7 churches, it deals with strictly Jews. 1) I don't have a gentile mindset for one, especially since I'm hebrew. 2) You have no proof whatsoever that Rev. is strictly for the jews, especially since jews are not the only part of Israel that occupies Israel. So here you have a lack of knowledge. (No disrespect intended)

Now, you made the point of a "First Ressurection." Your interpretation, of that term is wrong,
and I will show it.

Rev 11:11-12 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. (12) And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
One thing is, you don't know when the two witnesses are raised to heaven, it could be at the same time that everyone else is raised up.

Rev 11:11-12 is two people, ressurected from the dead, and took up into heaven. This happens
BEFORE Rev 20:5.You don't know this and scripture doesn't say so, this is an assumption.

So how can Rev 20:5 be a "first ressurection"? Rev 20:5, the "first
ressurection" isn't refering to the first time anyone is ressurected,This is the first resurrection of the bride of Messiah at His return, that's ones easy to figure out.

since the two witnesses
predates it.Again, an assumption

The term "first ressurection" is a description to show what "TYPE" of ressurection.
Agreed.

The "First Ressurection" refers to people raised to life, while the "Second Ressurection"
refers being raised to judgement.
Agreed.

And those two witnesses were NOT the first time anyone was ressurected and taken to heaven. Agreed again.

"Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."
You got elders in heaven. How did they get there? You will most likely answer this as these
elders aren't real people, but they are symbols for the nation of Israel and the church. Well you assume wrong of my response, I'm not big on the making everything a symbol thing like some. I believe more in a literal. You should know that about me by now, from the kind of things I post.

Those elders represent the OT people. Are you assuming again, or do you have scriptural proof?

Do you want to see when they were raised?
Mat 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.That does not mean they are the 24 elders, nor does it say so. I also believe that half of them are the 12 disciples.

If you have OT saints raised and taken to heaven and the two witnesses raised and taken to
heaven, why is it hard to accept the church is raised and taken to heaven, somewhere between
these two events? Because no where in the Bible does it indicate or even hint that the 'church' is taken to heaven. Also, again I reiterate, NEVER has YHVH ever raptured anyone out of any tribulation of any kind through out scripture. He has always brought them through and protected them, and I've shown you scriptural proof of this.

John's first view of God's throne room, he saw 24 elders. Not people from different nations
and languages, but 24 elders.Agreed.

They were OT jews, or people along that line.Again you assume.

This is a distinct
group. The second time he views God's throne room, there is a multitude of people from many
nations and languages.And where does it say they come from? The great tribulation!!! So suddenly all these people who have denied and resfused to receive Yeshua all this time, are suddenly going to accept Him after all the true believers have been raptured up? Yet in Rev. it says that even with all the things coming upon them, they continue to refuse to repent of their wicked ways.

How did it grow from 24 elders to a multitude? Ok, John's 3rd
view of God's throne, he sees the 144,000, with the elders (Rev 14). Forgive me, what is your point here?

Then: Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Correct, and all those who belong to YHVH who have died from the beginning who are in heaven are those armies.

This is all BEFORE the Rev 20 first ressurection. Rev 20:5, Jesus is already back on the earth.
If no one has been raised and taken to heaven, then Rev 19:14 is a lie. And "Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with
ten thousands of his saints," would be a lie also.
It's not a lie, it's misunderstanding scripture.

The rapture is going to happen. He's already got the OT people there. He'll get the two
witnesses up thereas well. This isn't a difficult task for the Lord to get the church there.

I know I don't have it all figured out, but one thing I do know is rapture is a pile horse manure, I've studied prophecy for 25 yrs. And there isn't ONE single thing that even hints to a sneaking in and snatching the church out of here before the tribulation. In fact there is plenty of scripture that shoots alot of holes in it. Rapture theory never existed until the 1800's around the time some of the rest of these bogus claims started such as Joseph Smith and the golden tablets and other junk like it.

One more thing, you know as well as I do, that Rev. is not in chronological order. So to say something happened before Rev. 20:4-5 doesn't wash. For all we know, the two witnesses, raise the same time Yeshua raises everyone else at His second coming.

As for the 144,000. I find a bit ironic that scripture speaks of only 2 things concerning them. They are redeemed from the earth as virgins, and they sing a song that only they know as they follow the Lamb wherever He goes. Yet people think that they can just claim whatever they want as to what they will do or who they are. This is plain guessing at it's best.

Trax · Mar 23, 2012

Avinu said:

Dude.....pay attention to your own words.
1. In Rev 20, Jesus has returned and the antichrist defeated
2. The two witnesses are killed by the anti-christ

The ressurection of the two witnesses predates the Rev 20 ressurection. The death
of the two witnesses HAS to be BEFORE the anti-christ is thrown into the lake of fire.

Believers Will Escape God’s Wrath — Biblical Foreshadows of the Rapture

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