Who believes that all who die saved go to heaven at death?

Tombo · Mar 25, 2012

I have been having a discussion with a fellow member here about the fate of those who die in Christ, the saved. I believe that all who die in the Lord go (in their spirit) directly into His presence at the moment of their death and are there awaiting the day of judgement and the resurrection of their bodies.

Philippians 1:21-24 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your accont."

2 Corinthians 5:6-9 "So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please Him."

A memeber at this site holds that all people, saved and unsaved, are now completely dead and he denies that Paul is speaking of dying and going to be with the Lord in these verses.

What say others here??? I can't be the only one who sees this. In fact I have never met a Christian that denies going to be with the Lord at death.

I guess by responding to this thread makes it a poll. But I am interested in seeing how many here really believe that the saved (those who are givien eternal life) will not begin that eternal life untill judgment day??? The evidence to me is overwhelming that we go to be with the Lord in our spirit and will be with Him always, receiveing our resurrected bodies at the end of the world.

God bless!!!!

Tom

GreenNnice · Mar 25, 2012

I Timothy 1:10

prophecyman · Mar 25, 2012

Tombo said:

I have been having a discussion with a fellow member here about the fate of those who die in Christ, the saved. I believe that all who die in the Lord go (in their spirit) directly into His presence at the moment of their death and are there awaiting the day of judgement and the resurrection of their bodies.

Philippians 1:21-24 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your accont."

2 Corinthians 5:6-9 "So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please Him."

A memeber at this site holds that all people, saved and unsaved, are now completely dead and he denies that Paul is speaking of dying and going to be with the Lord in these verses.

What say others here??? I can't be the only one who sees this. In fact I have never met a Christian that denies going to be with the Lord at death.

I guess by responding to this thread makes it a poll. But I am interested in seeing how many here really believe that the saved (those who are givien eternal life) will not begin that eternal life untill judgment day??? The evidence to me is overwhelming that we go to be with the Lord in our spirit and will be with Him always, receiveing our resurrected bodies at the end of the world.

God bless!!!!

Tom

If Christians who died saved went to be with the Lord, then what is the need for him to return and ressurect the dead in Christ?

Tombo · Mar 25, 2012

He will resurrect their bodies. Why is this so hard for people to grasp??!! Can you too ignore and discard what Paul wrote in those verses??? It is so clear.

Tom

peacefulbeliever · Mar 25, 2012

Tombo said:

Why is it so hard to grasp what God says about death? It's as shroom2 has said and tried to explain but you do not hear nor see. Opening another thread regarding death will not change what the scriptures clearly point out. We all will live in the resurrection not before.

Tombo · Mar 25, 2012

peacefulbeliever said:

I see that you too don't want to look at the verses I've shown from the Bible. But I don't want to go over the same thing with you, or shroom2, or any others who have made their view known. I want input from others. This is my thread, please respect it.

Tom

peacefulbeliever · Mar 25, 2012

Tombo said:

I don't want to base any doctrine on two verses - Phil. 1:21-26 and 2 Cor. 5:6-9. I don't want to disregard all the other verses where God tells us what death is and that the dead know nothing but will be raised.

Psalm 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Precious is the Hebrew word - yakar - and means of great price, costly. It cost God a lot for one of us to die - that is one less that praise Him and testify of Him.

Psalm 30:9 what profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pirt? shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth.

Psalm 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy loving kindness be declared in the grave? All the answers to these are NO.

Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 143:3 For the enemy hath persecuted my soul; he hath smitten my life down to the ground; he hath made me to dwell in darkness as those that have been long dead.

Daniel 12:1,2 And at that time shall Michael stand up the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

As for Matt. 17:3 - if you read on down to v9: And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, . . . .

Tombo · Mar 25, 2012

The vision that you and shroom2 point to means nothing more than what they saw during Christ's transfiguration. It was a vision, but you make it sound like it was a hallucination. Are you actually trying to say that they didn't really see Moses and Elijah speaking with the Lord Jesus, that the Bible is lying???
Again, the verses you point to are speaking of either the unsaved dead, or to believers during the old testament time that didn't understand about the ressurection and who thought they would NEVER live again.
When we get to Paul's words in the new testament, we can clearly see that believers are in the presence of their Lord NOW.

Think of the verses in Mark 12 and Luke 20.
See Mark 12:26-27 "And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to Him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."

He is speaking of the resurrection of the bodies of the saints. He must be, otherwise how can He call God the God of the living if they are dead in spirit and body???
Think carefully about these things.
God bless.

Tom

krisbrian · Mar 25, 2012

You will notice that most people who advocate soul sleep usually have to pull from the old testament to support it. The new testament makes it overwhelmingly clear that we go to be with the Lord right at death. Jesus even used the old testament to prove to the Sadducee's who didnt believe in the resurrection and felt it couldnt be proven through the Pentateuch, that not only is there a resurrection, but the dead are alive right now.

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

To me the soul sleepers are a modern day version of the Sadducee's. They do believe in the resurrection but they think we remain dead until the return of Christ. So therefore they do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Laodicea · Mar 25, 2012

krisbrian said:

You will notice that most people who advocate soul sleep usually have to pull from the old testament to support it. The new testament makes it overwhelmingly clear that we go to be with the Lord right at death. Jesus even used the old testament to prove to the Sadducee's who didnt believe in the resurrection and felt it couldnt be proven through the Pentateuch, that not only is there a resurrection, but the dead are alive right now.

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

To me the soul sleepers are a modern day version of the Sadducee's. They do believe in the resurrection but they think we remain dead until the return of Christ. So therefore they do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

I started a thread on what is the spirit and soul and showed from the OT and NT what they are.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38496-what-spirit-soul.html

shroom2 · Mar 25, 2012

GreenNnice said:

1 Tim 1:10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

I submit that believing death isn't death is not sound doctrine.

shroom2 · Mar 25, 2012

krisbrian said:

Has the meaning of death changed? The definition of death is plainly taught in the OT. The meaning has not changed, death is still death. The end of life. There is nothing more to be taught.

No, it doesn't.

He taught them the resurrection, but he did not teach that the "dead are alive right now".

That verse does not say that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive now. Heb 11 says Abraham is dead. They will be raised from the dead at the resurrection of the just.

Then we "soul sleepers" are not "modern day Sadducees". They did not believe in a resurrection.

A believer's hope is in being resurrected, not in dying.

Yes, the Sadducees did not know the scripture or the power of God, that He will raise people from the dead at the resurrections.

Tombo · Mar 25, 2012

So according to shroom2, God is the God of the dead, not of the living. To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord doesn't mean that. Pauls desire to depart and be with Christ, (which is far better) means he want Jesus to return, although that would make depart mean nothing.
Amazing how he ignores clear scriptures.
Oh well, it's in God's hands. We shared the truth and he refuses to listen.
God bless all here.

Tom

shroom2 · Mar 25, 2012

Tombo said:

I did not say that, Tom, and you know it. You believe that the dead aren't dead, and you are frustrated that I refuse to "fall in line" and see things your way, so you're twisting my words in an attempt to discredit me personally.

All that has been explained. You choose to stick with your belief that death isn't death.

And I suggest you are the one ignoring clear scripture. You brush all the scripture posted previously aside with "oh, that's talking about unbelievers". Was David, a man after God's own heart, an unbeliever?

What you believe about death is not truth.

Seconded.

Tombo · Mar 25, 2012

Jesus said "God is not the God of the dead but of the living". You don't believe what He said. You are the one locked into this bizzare belief that says its impossible for the saved to be with the Lord in heaven awaiting the end and the receiving of their glorifyed bodies. The Bible is so clear on this I don't see how you can continue in your false beliief.
According to you, God is the God of the dead and not the living. You can't have it your way and deny what Jesus said. But that's what you are doing.

Tom

shroom2 · Mar 25, 2012

Tombo said:

Yes, I do. What I do not believe is that the dead are alive now. That is the purpose of the upcoming resurrections, to raise the dead. If the dead are already in heaven and with Christ, what is the point of getting new bodies? Dead believers are DEAD. They will be raised from the dead. That's the hope.

The bible is clear that the dead WILL BE RAISED. And again, if they are already with Christ, what is the point of getting new bodies?

There you go again. I did not say, nor do I believe that.

It's not "my" way. It's what the bible says.

2knowhim · Mar 25, 2012

In all your getting, get understanding, ...........

HE IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE.

The body returns to the dust, Unbelievers and Believers alike, no difference,
The spirit returns to God who gave it, Unbelievers and Believers alike.

This is what Christ has done for All, ................

He stands READY to judge The Quick and The Dead, in Spirit, so that we may live in The Spirit
unto God......All.........

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

You go strait to the Judgement Seat of Christ.

And will be made subject unto Him, some have already taken part of this here and now.
But those who haven't will when they die, Immediately .

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (ALL CONCLUSIVE)

This is a present and ongoing with All.

Future Resurrections "plural" Come on, Again, HE IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Laodicea · Mar 25, 2012

Tombo said:

This link shows from the Bible in both the OT and NT what is the spirit and soul
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38496-what-spirit-soul.html

shroom2 · Mar 25, 2012

2knowhim said:

Yes, we believers shall. When Christ returns.

2knowhim · Mar 25, 2012

shroom2 said:

When Christ was Resurrected, those that slept came up out of their graves it says.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now do you really believe that they rose with Him, and you won't ?

He is The Alpha and The omega, The beginning and The End.

1Pe 3:18 seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
1Pe 3:20 He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,
1Pe 3:21 the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him."

Who believes that all who die saved go to heaven at death?

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