Will The AntiChrist Control The Whole World?

1Christianwarrior316 · Mar 28, 2012

I actually think doulos has made a very interesting point when he said, “As of right now that spiritual kingdom controls the geographic area that were once occupied by Daniel's leopard, bear and lion kingdoms. Ethnographically speaking what was John's whole world is now controlled by the beast.”
When one considers that the,
Lion is Babylon
Bear is Medo-Persia
Leopard is Greece
When we look at those kingdoms today we see that they are united spiritually by Islam.
The quran says,
019.088 They say: “(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!”
019.089 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
019.090 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
019.091 That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.
019.092 For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

It is clear by what the quran says that this is the spirit of antichrist that John tells us about. United by the disbelief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

The quran also says,
004.157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

As a Christian I know that this verse in the quran is a down right lie, as well as many other verses that deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And we know who the father of lies is, John 8:44.
Remember what Paul said,
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Knowing that our battle is against spiritual wickedness would not a Christian stand in defiance against a religion that contradicts the Word of God and is making people submit to it or die? Are we not a light unto the world, to preach the truth and witness to the souls that are lost? Or has the salt done lost it's savor, Matt 5:13.
If we look at the spread of Islam throughout the world today we see that there is no king that is uniting them but they stand united under a false religion (Islam), united under a false prophet (Mohammad), and united under a false god (Allah).

I do believe that doulos nailed it on the head when he said, “Have you considered that when the seventh beast recieves the deadly wound that it comes back with out a king. It does appear that the spiritual kingdom of Islam all though not united under an individual leader is waging an effective Jihad against the Christians and Jews in much of the world today. How many terrorist attacks have the muslims been involved in just since 9/11? How many Christians have been killed in Africa alone by the muslims? Need I continue?”

You also said, “But you are prophesying not according to scripture because there’s not one verse saying that the beast is Islam. You are just making it up."
I find this to be an interesting statement and actually pretty sad when Christians can not see the Beast when it is right before our very eyes. Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharisees that did not recognize our Lord and Savior when He was before their very eyes because they were so blinded by their doctrine.
Consider this…there is not one verse in the Old Testament that names Jesus Christ by His name but there are many verses predicting his coming.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316
　
　
　

　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　

loveme1 · Mar 28, 2012

1Christianwarrior316 said:

I actually think doulos has made a very interesting point when he said, “As of right now that spiritual kingdom controls the geographic area that were once occupied by Daniel's leopard, bear and lion kingdoms. Ethnographically speaking what was John's whole world is now controlled by the beast.”
When one considers that the,
Lion is Babylon
Bear is Medo-Persia
Leopard is Greece
When we look at those kingdoms today we see that they are united spiritually by Islam.
The quran says,
019.088 They say: “(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!”
019.089 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
019.090 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
019.091 That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.
019.092 For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

It is clear by what the quran says that this is the spirit of antichrist that John tells us about. United by the disbelief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

The quran also says,
004.157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

As a Christian I know that this verse in the quran is a down right lie, as well as many other verses that deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And we know who the father of lies is, John 8:44.
Remember what Paul said,
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Knowing that our battle is against spiritual wickedness would not a Christian stand in defiance against a religion that contradicts the Word of God and is making people submit to it or die? Are we not a light unto the world, to preach the truth and witness to the souls that are lost? Or has the salt done lost it's savor, Matt 5:13.
If we look at the spread of Islam throughout the world today we see that there is no king that is uniting them but they stand united under a false religion (Islam), united under a false prophet (Mohammad), and united under a false god (Allah).

I do believe that doulos nailed it on the head when he said, “Have you considered that when the seventh beast recieves the deadly wound that it comes back with out a king. It does appear that the spiritual kingdom of Islam all though not united under an individual leader is waging an effective Jihad against the Christians and Jews in much of the world today. How many terrorist attacks have the muslims been involved in just since 9/11? How many Christians have been killed in Africa alone by the muslims? Need I continue?”

You also said, “But you are prophesying not according to scripture because there’s not one verse saying that the beast is Islam. You are just making it up."
I find this to be an interesting statement and actually pretty sad when Christians can not see the Beast when it is right before our very eyes. Reminds me of the Scribes and Pharisees that did not recognize our Lord and Savior when He was before their very eyes because they were so blinded by their doctrine.
Consider this…there is not one verse in the Old Testament that names Jesus Christ by His name but there are many verses predicting his coming.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316
　
　
　

　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　

I think scripture gives much information, but islam is only part of the truth.

islam will play a part, but the truth is much more concealed,.

Think of islam as the smoke of a fire. Much can be hidden in that smoke.

doulos · Mar 28, 2012

Elizabeth619 said:

As we can see from the book of Daniel beasts are kingdoms. Daniel’s lion was Babylon, the bear was Medo-Persia, the leopard Greece and all of this unfolded over hundreds of years not just in the time that those the prophecy was given to were living. I do agree that the vast majority of Revelation has been fulfilled, but disagree that it was fulfilled in the first century (correct me if I have misunderstood and that is not what you are saying). As I said when we look at the Old Testament prophecies we can see that they unfolded over hundreds of years (and in some cases thousands). So it is reasonable to conclude that the prophecies John wrote would unfold over hundreds of years and not just all during the first century. Remember John was told to write about past present and future.
Rev 1:19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Hast seen would be past tense from Johns time, which are would be things during John’s time or present tense for that time period, and finally things which shall be hereafter in John’s future. The things which were future to John could very well have been in our past considering that 1900 years have passed since John wrote those verses.

Job8:8 tells us that we should enquire of those from the former ages.
Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers
Many of those from the former ages believed that a day was equal to a year. They based this belief on their understanding of Daniels 69 weeks. (taking us from Artaxerxes decree of 444BC to 32/33AD when Christ was crucified-cutoff.)
On Page 25 column 2 4th and 5th paragraph of Martyr’s Mirrors Theilman van Braght said “… a thousand two hundred and three score days, which, according to prophetic language, means as many years.mRev12:3-11….. let it be reckoned as it may, say we, a very long period….”
On page 277 of The Prophecies of Daniel and The Apocalypse Sir Isaac Newton said “…1260 days; and in these Prophecies days are put for years.”
On page 688 of the third volume of the Jamieson Fauseet brown Bible Commentary it says “…the woman a fugitive in the wilderness a thousand two hundred and and three score days. In the wider sense, we may adopt the day year theory of 1260 years…”'
And the list goes on with many more holding this view of a day for a year.
So as I have demonstrated there is ample reason to believe that the prophecies given in Revelation do unfold over hundreds of years.

So just for grins let’s try this theory on the 42 months. Of Rev11:2 and the 1260 dys of Rev12:6. Let’s start with the 42 months
.Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Luke21:21-24 gives us a starting point and end point for Jerusalem being trodden over. In Daniel we counted each day of the week as a year for the 69 weeks , so if we are to be consistent with this method we should count each day in the months as years. Once again if we are to be consistent in our method of interpretation we will look through the eyes of the prophet and use what wqs a year to the prophet for Johns prophecies 365.24 days, for Daniels 360 days.per year.

Luk 21:21-24Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The city of Jerusalem trodden down (controlled by), Gentiles until the Israelis took back the holy city in 1967. 42 months x 30.44 days = 1278.5 days (as years). Subtracting this from 1967 we arrive at 688.5.The founding year of the dome of the rock. By comparing the Olivette discourse in the different Gospels don’t we see that when the abomination of desolation and the city is surrounded by armies those in Judea are told to flee? Wouldn’t the time of the Gentiles be the time Gentiles control Jreusalem? Looks like we have a fit. But let’s see if it works on the 1260 days

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Most agree that Israel, is the "woman" in the context of this verse. If we then consider that the end of the 1260 "days" was when Israel came out of "the wilderness" (of the people Ezekiel 20:35), or out from being scattered among the nations, returning home and declaring her independence in 1948, and subtract 1260 years ("each day for a year"), we arrive at 688 AD. Once again the founding year of the dome of the rock.

Let's explore Daniel's 1290 "days" in prophecy, that he penned over 500 years before John authored the problems from Revelation above:
(KJV) Daniel 12:11: And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(Tanach) - Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

Sacrifices were suspended three times in the Old Testament: once before Daniel (Chronicles 28:24-25), once during the Babylonian captivity in 583 BC (Chronicles 36:19 and Ezra 3:6), and once, about four hundred years later, by the Greek king Antiochus Epiphanies. Let's try the 583 date considering that the angel Gabriel may have had Daniel write about the abolition of sacrifices with which he was directly familiar.

Old Testament - day = year "language" is suggested in Genesis' account of the flood as 30 day months pointing to a 360 day prophetic year, each year being equal to .9857 solar year (360/365.24) of or our modern historical record that the event dating comes from. 1290 x .9857 = 1271.5 solar years. Subtracting 583 we arrive again at 688.5 AD. The founding year of The Dome of the Rock - THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION.

Due to the size limits of posts I can only show a small portion of the evidence that points to the spiritual kingdom of Islam as the beast of Rev13:2 and the dome of the rock as the abomination of desolation. But I do hope and pray that it was enough that people could get a basic idea of the end time doctrine I hold/ Might I also suggest seeing Therapon’s great Tribulation thread to see how the time of great tribulation goes hand in hand with this.

loveme1 · Mar 28, 2012

islam is a tool for the beast.

shroom2 · Mar 28, 2012

I believe the entire book of Revelation is still future.

All of it.

Elizabeth619 · Mar 28, 2012

loveme1 said:

Instead of getting in an argument with you, and continusing to see you be disrespectful because you cannot understand what I am saying I believe it is best I put you on ignore.

Elizabeth619 · Mar 28, 2012

doulos said:

As we can see from the book of Daniel beasts are kingdoms. Daniel’s lion was Babylon, the bear was Medo-Persia, the leopard Greece and all of this unfolded over hundreds of years not just in the time that those the prophecy was given to were living. I do agree that the vast majority of Revelation has been fulfilled, but disagree that it was fulfilled in the first century (correct me if I have misunderstood and that is not what you are saying). As I said when we look at the Old Testament prophecies we can see that they unfolded over hundreds of years (and in some cases thousands). So it is reasonable to conclude that the prophecies John wrote would unfold over hundreds of years and not just all during the first century. Remember John was told to write about past present and future.
Rev 1:19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Hast seen would be past tense from Johns time, which are would be things during John’s time or present tense for that time period, and finally things which shall be hereafter in John’s future. The things which were future to John could very well have been in our past considering that 1900 years have passed since John wrote those verses.

Job8:8 tells us that we should enquire of those from the former ages.
Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers
Many of those from the former ages believed that a day was equal to a year. They based this belief on their understanding of Daniels 69 weeks. (taking us from Artaxerxes decree of 444BC to 32/33AD when Christ was crucified-cutoff.)
On Page 25 column 2 4th and 5th paragraph of Martyr’s Mirrors Theilman van Braght said “… a thousand two hundred and three score days, which, according to prophetic language, means as many years.mRev12:3-11….. let it be reckoned as it may, say we, a very long period….”
On page 277 of The Prophecies of Daniel and The Apocalypse Sir Isaac Newton said “…1260 days; and in these Prophecies days are put for years.”
On page 688 of the third volume of the Jamieson Fauseet brown Bible Commentary it says “…the woman a fugitive in the wilderness a thousand two hundred and and three score days. In the wider sense, we may adopt the day year theory of 1260 years…”'
And the list goes on with many more holding this view of a day for a year.
So as I have demonstrated there is ample reason to believe that the prophecies given in Revelation do unfold over hundreds of years.

So just for grins let’s try this theory on the 42 months. Of Rev11:2 and the 1260 dys of Rev12:6. Let’s start with the 42 months
.Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Luke21:21-24 gives us a starting point and end point for Jerusalem being trodden over. In Daniel we counted each day of the week as a year for the 69 weeks , so if we are to be consistent with this method we should count each day in the months as years. Once again if we are to be consistent in our method of interpretation we will look through the eyes of the prophet and use what wqs a year to the prophet for Johns prophecies 365.24 days, for Daniels 360 days.per year.

Luk 21:21-24Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The city of Jerusalem trodden down (controlled by), Gentiles until the Israelis took back the holy city in 1967. 42 months x 30.44 days = 1278.5 days (as years). Subtracting this from 1967 we arrive at 688.5.The founding year of the dome of the rock. By comparing the Olivette discourse in the different Gospels don’t we see that when the abomination of desolation and the city is surrounded by armies those in Judea are told to flee? Wouldn’t the time of the Gentiles be the time Gentiles control Jreusalem? Looks like we have a fit. But let’s see if it works on the 1260 days

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Most agree that Israel, is the "woman" in the context of this verse. If we then consider that the end of the 1260 "days" was when Israel came out of "the wilderness" (of the people Ezekiel 20:35), or out from being scattered among the nations, returning home and declaring her independence in 1948, and subtract 1260 years ("each day for a year"), we arrive at 688 AD. Once again the founding year of the dome of the rock.

Let's explore Daniel's 1290 "days" in prophecy, that he penned over 500 years before John authored the problems from Revelation above:
(KJV) Daniel 12:11: And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(Tanach) - Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

Sacrifices were suspended three times in the Old Testament: once before Daniel (Chronicles 28:24-25), once during the Babylonian captivity in 583 BC (Chronicles 36:19 and Ezra 3:6), and once, about four hundred years later, by the Greek king Antiochus Epiphanies. Let's try the 583 date considering that the angel Gabriel may have had Daniel write about the abolition of sacrifices with which he was directly familiar.

Old Testament - day = year "language" is suggested in Genesis' account of the flood as 30 day months pointing to a 360 day prophetic year, each year being equal to .9857 solar year (360/365.24) of or our modern historical record that the event dating comes from. 1290 x .9857 = 1271.5 solar years. Subtracting 583 we arrive again at 688.5 AD. The founding year of The Dome of the Rock - THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION.

Due to the size limits of posts I can only show a small portion of the evidence that points to the spiritual kingdom of Islam as the beast of Rev13:2 and the dome of the rock as the abomination of desolation. But I do hope and pray that it was enough that people could get a basic idea of the end time doctrine I hold/ Might I also suggest seeing Therapon’s great Tribulation thread to see how the time of great tribulation goes hand in hand with this.

Wow! You have done alot of studying on this haven't you?
I won't argue about Islam, but I won't say they are the ONLY antichrist either.

Very interesting stuff you posted, and THANK YOU for being respectful.

loveme1 · Mar 28, 2012

Elizabeth619 said:

John declares that MANY antichrists have risen. There is no ONE specific person who is the antichrist.
1 John 2:18-22
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.d 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son

John’s references to “antichrist” reveals that the term is a general designation employed to suggest a spirit of unbelief that can be manifested in a variety of ways, both in the past and present.

So, as far as the reference in Revelation, PLEASE keep in mind that the beast in this book was not of literal meaning. It was symbolic. Revelation is taken way too literal. That book was written for Christians of that time as a sign of hope and goodness prevailing. When John had his vision Christians were being persecuted. Reveltion showed early Christians that it would end.

Ignore me if helps you feel better, but above is you telling people not to take it literally, it was symbolic....

So which of us needs the help?

Take care.

texian · Mar 28, 2012

"Lion is Babylon
Bear is Medo-Persia
Leopard is Greece
When we look at those kingdoms today we see that they are united spiritually by Islam."

You are assuming that the four kingdoms of Daniel 7 are the same kingdoms as Daniel 2. Why? Probably from dispensationalist theology.

But instead, look at the larger picture of the succession of kingdoms. There were two kingdoms before the set of four shown in Daniel 2, three of which are listed above. These two earlier kingdoms were Egypt and Assyria. So there were six kingdoms before the Cross, however, Daniel 2: 44 says in the days of these kings or kingdoms God would set his everlasting kingdom. Just as God rested on the seventh day after making man on the sixth day. so the seventh kingdom is he kingdom of God.

After the Cross, the first major kingdom was the Holy Roman Empire, followed by the Catholic Spanish Empire. The Spanish Empire began to be diminished when the British Protestant Empire rose in power. The British empire was dominant for some time. Then in 1917 the Russian or Soviet Union rose as an empire, and then Nazi Germany came along as a reaction against the Soviet Union and violent Marxism.

Lets see, the Holy Roman Empire, the Spanish Catholic Kingdom are parallel to the Egyptian and Assyrian empires prior to the Cross. We would expect then that in parallel to the six kingdoms before the Cross, after the Cross, following the first two, the post-cross quartet would appear, which would be the British kingdom, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and guess who, America.

So we have six kingdoms before the Cross (with the seventh being the spiritual kingdom of God), and after the Cross we have six parallel kingdoms all representing man, as number six (666 in Revelation 13: 18)

We might think that maybe following these last four kingdoms after the Cross, with America the world beater of the present era, the last of man's kingdoms ( America, like England, was once a Christian protestant nation) there would appear God's more complete seventh kingdom.

The kingdoms of Daniel 7 are prophecy about four kingdoms beyond the Cross, and like Daniel 2, are kingdoms later than the first two, not a repetition of the same four kingdoms of Daniel 2.

Figure out what the four kingdoms of Daniel 7 are from this.

doulos · Mar 28, 2012

texian said:

"Lion is Babylon
Bear is Medo-Persia
Leopard is Greece
When we look at those kingdoms today we see that they are united spiritually by Islam."

You are assuming that the four kingdoms of Daniel 7 are the same kingdoms as Daniel 2. Why? Probably from dispensationalist theology.

But instead, look at the larger picture of the succession of kingdoms. There were two kingdoms before the set of four shown in Daniel 2, three of which are listed above. These two earlier kingdoms were Egypt and Assyria. So there were six kingdoms before the Cross, however, Daniel 2: 44 says in the days of these kings or kingdoms God would set his everlasting kingdom. Just as God rested on the seventh day after making man on the sixth day. so the seventh kingdom is he kingdom of God.

After the Cross, the first major kingdom was the Holy Roman Empire, followed by the Catholic Spanish Empire. The Spanish Empire began to be diminished when the British Protestant Empire rose in power. The British empire was dominant for some time. Then in 1917 the Russian or Soviet Union rose as an empire, and then Nazi Germany came along as a reaction against the Soviet Union and violent Marxism.

Lets see, the Holy Roman Empire, the Spanish Catholic Kingdom are parallel to the Egyptian and Assyrian empires prior to the Cross. We would expect then that in parallel to the six kingdoms before the Cross, after the Cross, following the first two, the post-cross quartet would appear, which would be the British kingdom, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and guess who, America.

So we have six kingdoms before the Cross (with the seventh being the spiritual kingdom of God), and after the Cross we have six parallel kingdoms all representing man, as number six (666 in Revelation 13: 18)

We might think that maybe following these last four kingdoms after the Cross, with America the world beater of the present era, the last of man's kingdoms ( America, like England, was once a Christian protestant nation) there would appear God's more complete seventh kingdom.

The kingdoms of Daniel 7 are prophecy about four kingdoms beyond the Cross, and like Daniel 2, are kingdoms later than the first two, not a repetition of the same four kingdoms of Daniel 2.

Figure out what the four kingdoms of Daniel 7 are from this.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I must ask are you aware of the bifidic nature of the writing style used in Daniel? I believe those who understand the bifidic nature of Daniel will recognize that the beasts/kingdoms from Chapters 2&7 of Daniel are the same beasts. Bifids and chiasms are both employed in many of the prophetic books. David Dorsey discusses this in his book The Literary Structure of The Old Testament, but one can easily get a good understanding of bifids and chiasms by reading the articles or watching the you tube videos that appear in the first 4 or 5 listigs of a google search on bifids and chiasms. (LOL and it’s easier then reading an expensive book )

peterT · Mar 28, 2012

doulos said:

It doesn’t matter how big you use your font it doesn’t prove you point.

1John2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Notes it says an antichrist shall come Not antichrists shall come. No one is disputing that there are many antichrists in the world including every signal person that doesn’t believe in Jesus.

There are no verses in the Bible that say Islam is the beast.

There are no verses in the Bible that say that there is on one antichrist/king in the end.

But Doctrine without verses seems to be the way of it these days.

Daniel 7:25.Shall speak great things against the Most High.

Daniel11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

23 And after the league [made] with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do [that] which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: [yea], and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].

To deceive the whole world He as to look good like an angel of light.

He comes in peaceably and comes up strong with a small people.

Man’s last hope, a helper of humanity an angel of light, pretending he is God.

peterT · Mar 28, 2012

doulos said:

Yes beasts are known as kingdoms, but they are also known as kings.

Rv17:10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

And when Daniel was speaking to king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon he said Thou art this head of gold.

Daniel2;21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold.

But I bet you are not going to put that in your novel because then it wouldn’t fit.

doulos · Mar 28, 2012

peterT said:

Maybe you should reread 1John4:3 it says "This is that spirit of antichrist (singular) whereof ye have heard should come" and the.n John goes on to tell us it was already in the world then

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
If you want to disagree go right ahead your argument isn't with but with what the Word acyually says.

And there are none that say the lion was Babylon, the bear Medo-Persia and the leopard Greece. One can only determine the identity of those kingdoms by using sound hermeneutic principle, not guesswork theology.

You claim there is one then you shoud be able to show us the verse that says antichrist is a king in the end. Why don't you show us which one of the 4 verses that use the word antichrist says that?

peterT · Mar 28, 2012

doulos said:

I already showed you but you can’t hear.

I already showed you, when Daniel was speaking to king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon he said Thou art this head of gold. Showing beasts are kings.

But you can’t hear.

I already showed you about the 10 kings in the end Rv17

But you can’t hear.

I already showed you the little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots leaving 8 kings in the end.

But you can’t hear.

I already showed you he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

But you can’t hear.

I already showed you, that he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

But you can’t hear.

Daniel7:11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The little horn a king in the last days shall make war with the saints.

But I am sure you can’t hear that ether.

1Christianwarrior316 · Mar 28, 2012

texian said:

Assuming? Really? Many scholars both Jewish and Christian are in agreement that Daniel’s lion, bear, and leopard kingdom beasts are the successive kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece.

John Gills Exposition of the Entire Bible
Dan 7:4 - The first was like a lion,.... That which rose up first, the kingdom of the Babylonians, as the Syriac version expresses it; or the Assyrian monarchy, founded by Nimrod, increased by the Assyrians, and brought to its height under Nebuchadnezzar by the Babylonians and Chaldeans; this is said to be like a "lion" for its strength and power, for its greatness, dignity, and majesty; the same with the head of gold in Nebuchadnezzar's dream;
Dan 7:5 - And, behold, another beast, a second, like to a bear,.... Another monarchy, and which succeeded the former, and rose up upon the ruins of it, the Medo-Persian monarchy; and so the Syriac version prefixes to this verse, by way of explanation, "the kingdom of the Medes'' like to a bear, less generous and strong than the lion; more rough and uncivil, but equally cruel and voracious; which describes the Medes and Persians as a fierce and cruel people, and less polished, and more uncivilized, than the Chaldeans;
Dan 7:6 - After this I beheld, and, lo another, like a leopard,.... Another beast, another monarchy, a third monarchy succeeding the Persian monarchy, and which rose up on the ruins of that; Darius king of the Persians being beaten by Alexander king of Macedon, who was the instrument of setting up the Grecian monarchy here intended; compared to a leopard, a smaller creature than a lion; signifying that this monarchy arose from a small beginning; and a crafty one, Alexander having many wise counsellors of his father's about him, though he himself was rash and hasty; and a spotted one, denoting the various virtues and vices of Alexander, and his inconstancy in them; sometimes exercising the one, and sometimes the other; or rather the different nations, and the manners of them, he conquered, of which this empire consisted; not to say anything of the cruelty and swiftness of this creature, which are both to be observed in this conqueror:

Adam Clarkes’ Commentary on the Bible
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, The beast like a lion is the kingdom of the Babylonians; and the king of Babylon is compared to a lion, Jer_4:7; Isa_5:29; and is said to fly as an eagle, Jer_48:40; Eze_17:3, Eze_17:7. The lion is considered the king of the beasts, and the eagle the king of the birds; and therefore the kingdom of Babylon, which was signified by the golden head of the great image, was the first and noblest of all the kingdoms; and was the greatest then in being. .
Dan 7:5 - Another beast - like to a bear - This was the Medo-Persian empire, represented here under the symbol of the bear, as the largest species of these animals was found in Media, a mountainous, cold, and rough country, covered with woods. The Medes and Persians are compared to a bear on account of their cruelty and thirst after blood, a bear being a most voracious and cruel animal; the bear is termed by Aristotle an all-devouring animal; and the Medo-Persians are known to have been great robbers and spoilers.
Dan 7:6 - Another like a leopard - four wings - four heads - This was the Macedonian or Greek empire; and Alexander the Great its king. Alexander and his subjects are fitly compared to a leopard.

Matthew Henry Commentary
The first beast was like a lion, Dan_7:4. This was the Chaldean monarchy, that was fierce and strong, and made the kings absolute. This lion had eagle's wings, with which to fly upon the prey, denoting the wonderful speed that Nebuchadnezzar made in his conquest of kingdoms. But Daniel soon sees the wings plucked, a full stop put to the career of their victorious arms. Divers countries that had been tributaries to them revolt from them, and make head against them; so that this monstrous animal, this winged lion, is made to stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart is given to it. It has lost the heart of a lion, which it had been famous for (one of our English kings was called Caeur de Lion - Lion-heart), has lost its courage and become feeble and faint, dreading every thing and daring nothing; they are put in fear, and made to know themselves to be but men. Sometimes the valour of a nation strangely sinks, and it becomes cowardly and effeminate, so that what was the head of the nations in an age or two becomes the tail. (2.) The second beast was like a bear, Dan_7:5. This was the Persian monarchy, less strong and generous than the former, but no less ravenous. This bear raised up itself on one side against the lion, and soon mastered it. It raised up one dominion; so some read it. Persia and Media, which in Nebuchadnezzar's image were the two arms in one breast, now set up a joint government. This bear had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth, the remains of those nations it had devoured, which were the marks of its voraciousness, and yet an indication that though it had devoured much it could not devour all; some ribs still stuck in the teeth of it, which it could not conquer. Whereupon it was said to it, “Arise, devour much flesh; let alone the bones, the ribs, that cannot be conquered, and set upon that which will be an easier prey.” The princes will stir up both the kings and the people to push on their conquests, and let nothing stand before them. Note, Conquests, unjustly made, are but like those of the beasts of prey, and in this much worse, that the beasts prey not upon those of their own kind, as wicked and unreasonable men do. (3.) The third beast was like a leopard, Dan_7:6. This was the Grecian monarchy, founded by Alexander the Great, active, crafty, and cruel, like a leopard.

The first beast in Daniel 7:4 was the Lion. History shows this Lion beast to be a figurative picture of the Babylonian empire which controlled the Holy Land between 606B.C. to 536B.C.
The second beast in Daniel 7:5 was the Bear. History shows this Bear beast to be a figurative picture of the Medo-Persia empire which controlled the Holy Land between 536B.C. to 332B.C.
The third beast in Daniel 7:6 was the Leopard. History shows this Leopard beast to be a figurative picture of the Greek empire which controlled the Holy Land between 332B.C.to 65B.C.
These empires controlled the whole world known at their time. And when one looks at the geographical areas controlled by these beasts in their time we see that it includes all the nations of the Middle East today that seek to destroy both Jews and Christians. Nations united by the spiritual kingdom of Islam. A spiritual kingdom that seeks a one world religion. A religion that denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316
　
　

peterT · Mar 29, 2012

There are 5 kingdoms in Daniel 2 not 4

32 This image's head [was] of fine gold, ……………………………… Empire Babylon, Daniels day.

His breast and his arms of silver, ………………………………………….Empire Medo-Persia.

His belly and his thighs of brass,……………………………………………Empire Greece.

33 His legs of iron, ………………………………………….......................Empire Rome .
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron.

Now for the 5th kingdom.

His feet part of iron and part of clay. …………………………………….Empire last days.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; 42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

So you can see there are 5 kingdoms in Daniel 2.

Now look at the whole pitcher in bible history including the first two kingdoms 1) Egypt. 2) Assyria.
That makes seven kingdom altogether in bible history.Conformed by john saying Rv17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

And when Daniel says in Daniel 2

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed.

Daniel must be prophesying, because the king of the head of gold, and the king of the arms of silver, and the king of the belly and his thighs of brass, and the king of the legs of iron are all dead and buried. He must be talking about the Ten toes, in the days of these kings.

So thus go to Rv17 and see the 7th head with the ten kings/10 horns because Daniel was prophesying.
five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, the other is not yet come is the one the 7th with the ten horns, thus the last kingdom of Daniel2 with the ten toes.

Rv17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

texian · Mar 29, 2012

"You are entitled to your opinion, but I must ask are you aware of the bifidic nature of the writing style used in Daniel? I believe those who understand the bifidic nature of Daniel will recognize that the beasts/kingdoms from Chapters 2&7 of Daniel are the same beasts. Bifids and chiasms are both employed in many of the prophetic books. David Dorsey discusses this in his book The Literary Structure of The Old Testament, but one can easily get a good understanding of bifids and chiasms by reading the articles or watching the you tube videos that appear in the first 4 or 5 listigs of a google search on bifids and chiasms. (LOL and it’s easier then reading an expensive book )"

Argument, endless argument on this, as on most present day Christian forums. Scripture does not spoon feed us, as when a baby being fed spits out some of the food and the mother spoons that back into his mouth. The Bible leaves some scripture to be figured out from other scripture. But when using man-made theologies, like dispensationalism, the older protestant idea of using scripture to interpret scripture has been lost to some extent. The dialectic church tends to use theology to interpret scripture rather than other scripture because theology can be more easily bent to fit whatever group consensus one is operating from. Arriving at a group consensus rather than "it is written" is what the dialectic is about. The dialectic also operates on "what do you think, "what is your opinion," and "how do you feel."

The concept of parallel kingdoms is more relevant to understanding the difference between the kingdoms of Daniel 2 and those of Daniel 7. There are parallel kingdoms before and after the Cross. You could say that the present dominating kingdom has grown from kingdoms that are parallel to the Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman kingdoms, because the lion, bear, leopard and diverse fourth kingdom are parallel to those four pre-Cross kingdoms. But the literal, ancient Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman kingdoms have not been around in the last two or three centuries to influence the world beater empire of today. Their parallel kingdoms have been around, and the nations those three previous kingdoms grew from still exist, England, Russia and Germany (see Revelation 13: 2). The 20th century parallel to the ancient Persian empire is Russia, the Greek empire's parallel was Nazi Germany, and the Babylonian empire was that of England.

jandian · Mar 29, 2012

Hi guys, I was suppose to reading II Timothy2 this morning and accidently read II Thessalonians2 instead. LOL... anyway I dont know if anyone has used these as yet but I came across these scriptures and thought they may help.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
*4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
*5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved

IMINJC · Mar 29, 2012

PeterT

WOW..Keep up the good work..remember, its not a matter of converting anyone, its all about posting the truth so that the curious on lookers can find it....Good Job.

peterT · Mar 29, 2012

IMINJC said:

Thanks IMINJC.

I understand..

Love from peter

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