Faith vs. Proof

[MusicalMe]

Some more food for discussion (because I like to bring up controversial subjects and get people thinking)

Once again, this is just for the purposes of debate and discussion, so don't get nasty, please. This topic came up in a conversation with my roommate this evening, so I'd like to see what other people have to say.

If you think the Bible is 100% literal and accurate, where does faith come in to play? If something is fact or proven, then believing it requires no faith. I do not require faith to believe that the sky is blue or that water evaporates, because it's fact.

So if you consider the Bible to be fact and true, does it require much faith to believe it?

On the flip side, if you believe that not all of the Bible is true (or at least not literal - for example, the creation story meant to be poetic, Job meant to be a play, etc), does it require more faith then?

Do you believe that you have to believe 100% or none at all? Or do you think there's some give and take there?

Let the debating begin... (friendly debating, hopefully)

 

[MahogonySnail]

I personaly believe the bible is not always a source of literal fact textbook because God wants people not to follow a book but follow Himself.

 

[wattie]

Well to begin with there are alot of things that do show the bible is the Word of God.. aside from saying 'it is the Word of God because the bible says it is'

You have - confirmed prophecies all through the bible.. fulfilled.. in ways that the fulfillment of them could be nothing else other than what the prophecies predicted: for example..

Jesus -- His place of birth.. family .. purpose.. life death and resurrection were all foretold in the Old Testament.. in some detail.. that would be impossible for anyone else apart from Jesus to fulfill

But in regards to faith--

You have saving faith-- which is asking Jesus for salvation.. for forgiveness of sin and eternal life. Jesus does this for a person who is genuine asking for salvation.. He seals them with the Holy Spirit.. guaranteeing them eternal life.

Then you have THE faith.. which is service to God after salvation. This is where 'faith without works is dead' comes in.. where acts of service to God require action..and are dormant without action. This is church membership.. bible study.. evangelism.. small groups.. etc..

THE faith is not compulsory because a person who has forgiveness of sin and eternal life.. they got this from Jesus - independently of their service to Him.

So.. you don't HAVE to believe the bible is 100 percent literal.. but you would CHOOSE to if you knew the sound, solid evidence behind it..

Faith.. not blind.. but put in a real Jesus, who really died, who really rose again.. who really is God! How do we know this? Not just cos the bible says so.. but because evidence backing up the bible supports this!

For example:

Did Jesus really die on the cross? YES! Because the method of execution from Romans during this time was brutal and effective in insuring the victim was dead.

Did Jesus' body get stolen from the tomb? NO! Because the disciples were dispersed and scattered when hearing their Messiah was dead! They had no reason to steal the body... they were discouraged and not wanting to come out in the open

Did Jesus somehow revive in the tomb? NO! As before-- the crucifixion was too harsh and brutal for anyone to survive. And even if he did survive.. how did he then remove the rock to his tomb.. get past the Romans guarding it.. and then the disciples actually believe he was risen from teh dead-- in the mostly dead state he was in? NO WAY

So Jesus was dead.. and his body was not stolen.. he did not revive in the tomb after crucifixion..

Now.. the accounts of people seeing him alive after death?

Are based on manuscript evidence that is amongst the most reliable and trustworthy sections of scripture in teh New Testament:

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

This section of scripture.. was passed on to Paul by someone else.. and he wrote it at a very early time.. close to Jesus' life death and resurrectoin anyway!

When someone writes about something like a news article of the time and others who saw the event the author is talking about are around.. the author isn't likely to lie!

So.. what I am pointing out.. is

faith stands up to reason.. and is not blind!

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we UNDERSTAND that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

So faith is undergirded by evidence

but God also hasn't just given us 100 percent proof of Him.. otherwise there would be no searching for Him.. not reason to believe.. it would be like.. does God exist? Well .. I have no choice in the matter cos I just shook His hand yesterday on the hill and He always visits my home in person.

Really it is .. does God exist? Yes! Not because I have seen Him physically on earth now.. but because he has left some fingerprints of the time when He was on earth.. some evidence.. so if I seek Him - take a step of faith out.. I am rewarded.

Christians are allowed to question their faith.. allowed to search it out.. because their faith is deepened when their questions carry some solid answers.

What was the quote? Something like-

"Faith without anguish of mind, without doubt, without searching..without challenge, is not faith at all.. but only an illusion."

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[worldlover]

i honestly believe in accounts of bible even though i wasn't there at that time but my faith is with GOD that's why i believe in all the sayings in the bible.

 

[Sharp]

I've got no reason to believe that anything said to have happened in the bible didn't happen. I think relegating these events to fables or stories is patronising to God. God can do anything - I don't think he needs to make up stories to make a point or teach us something.

 

[MusicalMe]

Wattie - some very interesting thoughts there. It's always encouraging for me to see people who believe what they believe because they've really studied it, researched it, or thought about it in depth. Those also end up being the people who are more likely to be able to reasonably defend what they believe when they're confronted with opposition.

 

[MusicalMe]

Here's another twist to debate:

If somehow, someday, someone proved to you that one part of the Bible (let's say Job, for example) didn't happen. Would it cause you to question your entire faith? Or would you be able to find a way to continuing believing?

 

[wattie]

I would question my faith alright! But it is kind of a thing that really wouldn't happen. I mean the bible has stood up to 2000+ years of criticism and debate and said 'search me further!'

So in regards to Job-- I think if someone really studied into the historicity of his book.. the opposite would be true in that they would prove it is right.

But also... this is a difficult book to 'prove' anyway.. given that it is the earliest book after Genesis I think.. and is also filled with wisdom and poetic literature.. which needs a different kind of reading. Not that it isn't literal.. but the questions that Job asks God.. and what Job's friends tell him.. and what God says to Job.. need reading of alot of context to really grasp.

So.. it would definitely cause me to question my faith... but I think with most of every other thing in the bible.. it would actually be proven to be true by indepth study

 

[worldlover]

Here's another twist to debate:

If somehow, someday, someone proved to you that one part of the Bible (let's say Job, for example) didn't happen. Would it cause you to question your entire faith? Or would you be able to find a way to continuing believing?

no, because thousands of years may have affected some accounts in the bible and i can see that is the reason why bible may be innacurate and proving that they are true is the hardest part but my only proof that i could show is based on my experience what GOD has done to me, that how i felt it's true.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I would question my faith alright! But it is kind of a thing that really wouldn't happen. I mean the bible has stood up to 2000+ years of criticism and debate and said 'search me further!'

So in regards to Job-- I think if someone really studied into the historicity of his book.. the opposite would be true in that they would prove it is right.

But also... this is a difficult book to 'prove' anyway.. given that it is the earliest book after Genesis I think.. and is also filled with wisdom and poetic literature.. which needs a different kind of reading. Not that it isn't literal.. but the questions that Job asks God.. and what Job's friends tell him.. and what God says to Job.. need reading of alot of context to really grasp.

So.. it would definitely cause me to question my faith... but I think with most of every other thing in the bible.. it would actually be proven to be true by indepth study

Greetings,

JOB

1. Third son of ISSACHAR - Gen. 46:13. Called Jashub in Numbers 26:24 and 1 Chronicles 7:1.

2. A decendant of Aram, son of Shem, dwelling in Uz, and possibly a contemporary with Abraham.

There are the two theories, I tend to think the 2nd but good evidence for either, more study needed.

 

[Slepsog4]

Ambassador Insights

Week 11​

Blood, Boils and Flies
​

The kind of faith God is interested in is not wishing. It’s trust based on knowing, a sure confidence grounded in evidence. In the next three weeks you will receive biblical examples that suffice to make my point.


Israel’s exodus from Egypt was depicted in a clever animated film called “The Prince of Egypt.” After seeing the movie, my wife and I spent time reading the original account in the Hebrew Scriptures.


Though I’d read this passage a number of times, something jumped out at me I hadn’t seen before, a phrase God kept repeating over and over.


Reading the encounter with God at the burning bush, we sense Moses’ reluctance to be God’s deliverer. And it’s understandable. Why would Pharaoh, the most powerful leader in the world, submit to a renegade? Why would two million Hebrew slaves follow a murderer and a defector?


“What if they won’t believe me, or listen to me?” Moses demurred. “What if they say, ‘The Lord hasn’t appeared to you’?”
What God didn’t say in response is as important as what He did say. He didn’t say, “Tell Pharaoh he’s just going to have to trust you on this one. Tell the Hebrews they’ve got to have faith.”


Instead God asked, “What’s that in your hand?”


“A staff,” Moses answered.


“Throw it on the ground.”


So he threw it down, and it became a serpent.


“Stretch out your hand,” the Lord said. “Grab it by the tail.”


Reluctantly, Moses did as he was told. When he grabbed the snake, it became a staff again.


“Do this,” God said, “and then they’ll believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers, has appeared to you.”


More signs followed that got the people’s attention: the river of blood and frogs covering the land; the gnats, flies, and locusts; the boils and the pestilence; the hail, the darkness, and finally the angel of death. All for one purpose: “That they might know there is a God in Israel.” This phrase is repeated no less than ten times throughout the account. (Cf., Exodus 6:7, 7:5, 7:17, 8:10, 8:22, 9:14, 9:29, 10:2, 14:4, and 14:18)


What was the result? “And when Israel saw the great power which the Lord had used against the Egyptians, the people feared the Lord, and they believed in the Lord and in His servant Moses” (Exodus 14:31).


Note the pattern: a powerful evidence (miracles, in this case), giving the people knowledge of God, in Whom they then placed their faith. Knowledge some level of certainty—went before belief in each of these cases.


God didn’t ask Pharaoh, the Hebrews, or even Moses for mindless faith, blind leaps, or wishful thinking. He demonstrated His power, giving them good reason to believe, resulting in obedience. First, Pharaoh and the Hebrews were given good reason to know. This then grounded their investment of faith (active trust) in God. (Of course, Pharaoh’s “faith” was not expressed in humble surrender leading to salvation, but in obedience under compulsion. The point is, he was compelled to act based on the unmistakable evidence of God’s power.)


In the animated feature, Miriam sings a song of deliverance, which includes the refrain, “There can be miracles when you believe.” But the reality was just the opposite. Miracles didn’t follow belief; they preceded it. Acts of power led to knowledge, which then allowed faith to flourish.


Next week we will look at two examples from the New Testament where concrete evidence allows the doubters to know the truth so they can then trust in the forgiveness Christ could give.

Want to read more from Greg Koukl? Visit http://www.str.org/ for more free online resources,
visit the online store to purchase books, DVDs and more or call Stand to Reason at 1-800-2-REASON.​