misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

[dscherck]

Not sure I follow what your saying fully. What I'm saying is that I think, and I could be wrong, Catholics believe that it's imparative that the baby be baptised. And I could be wrong but I think they think that somehow saves the kid. I don't think so. The baby could die 2 hours after being born, never baptiszed and go to heaven since it's still innocent, and unaware. It's not some human ritual thats somehow gonna save it. But I think later on in life when the person reaches teen to adult years if at that point they get baptized they're doing the ritual with the concious knowledge of what they're doing, being born again, to symbolize there's new found faith, accepting Christs into there heart and sacrific for there sin. Almost like an extention of doing just the sinners prayer. But again I think that too even as an adult is symbolic and just a ritual. Again even as an adult I don't think that you'll show up to the perly gates and they'll be like "hmmm lets see was he baptized as an adult, No, oh well down you go". Again the adult baptism is I think a very good thing. Not manditory, but it's like any other ritual that it signifies the level of your belief to some extent that you'd be willing to do the ritual. But again jesus and the theif at the cross he said to him that he'd be saved and the theif had no time to do anything right. But getting back to catholics I think, and I could be wrong, they think that to be saved you must get baptised. Again I could be wrong. That's why I was gving the example of the baby.

But as it's been pointed out many times, even the smallest stain of sin can keep one from Heaven. And the Scriptures are clear that all are born sinful.

See Job 14:1-4 and Psalm 51:5 specifically. Note that Our Lord tells us that we should let the children come to Him because the Kingdom of God doesn't belong to them. There's no mention of an "age of reason". God's grace isn't limited to those who can ask for it. It's much greater than that. Look at Mark 10:14, Matt 19:14, and Luke 18:15. All examples of Our Lord bestowing grace on infants and children. Why would the grace of Baptism be any different?

 

[JaumeJ]

And worship Him in full communion with the Church He founded, that has preserved His gospel and the Holy Scriptures for close to two thousand years.

If it is Yahweh's will for His Word to survive theology it will. Actually, it has survived in spite of the meddling of men.
There is nothing you can justify about any of the departure from Yahweh.

The key is, do you believe you should obey Yahweh or disobey Yahweh.

If you believe you should obey Him, read His Word and do His Word.

Worship Yahweh. Saint and Mary worship is not of Yahweh. Mary is certainly never going to be pleased with all the catholics trying to raise her above Yahweh. She always listened to her Son when on this earth, and if she listened to her Son so should the catholics.

 

[rainacorn]

I'm wary of any denomination that relies so heavily on doctrine rather than simply 'the Bible.'

It's not simply that 'Catholics are bad,' or at least it shouldn't be. I don't understand the severe hatred some people around here have for the Catholic Church. I can only assume they lack perspective on the actual problems in the world. Not even the huge ones like world hunger and genocide and human trafficking, but the more immediate ones at our front door, like atheism and hopelessness. They're creeping up on us.

The Bible isn't hard to understand. It doesn't need all of the extras that people put on it. It's not just the Catholics who have taken interpretations and formed large swaths of doctrine around those interpretations. It's kinda rampant everywhere. Catholics pretty much taught everyone how to be Christians so nearly all of the Protestant denominations are edits of Catholicism rather than reinventions based on Biblical understanding.

If I do have any problem with Catholicism it is only in how fiercely some will fight to defend their doctrine. It's JUST doctrine. It's not Scripture. There's no reason to be so obstinate about it. However, I totally understand the desire to be defensive when one feels they are being attacked. If I were a Catholic, the title of this thread would offend me. So...I get it. It's a shame.

 

[dscherck]

If it is Yahweh's will for His Word to survive theology it will. Actually, it has survived in spite of the meddling of men.
There is nothing you can justify about any of the departure from Yahweh.

The key is, do you believe you should obey Yahweh or disobey Yahweh.

If you believe you should obey Him, read His Word and do His Word.

Worship Yahweh. Saint and Mary worship is not of Yahweh. Mary is certainly never going to be pleased with all the catholics trying to raise her above Yahweh. She always listened to her Son when on this earth, and if she listened to her Son so should the catholics.

We don't put her up over God. That's what we've been accused of, but we certainly don't do that. We do however honour her as befitting the mother of Our Lord and look to her as an example of perfect obedience to the will of God.

 

[cfultz3]

We don't put her up over God. That's what we've been accused of, but we certainly don't do that. We do however honour her as befitting the mother of Our Lord and look to her as an example of perfect obedience to the will of God.

May I ask you why the Catholic church does not look to Jesus as the perfect example of obedience to God's will? I ask it this way because you did not mention it in your statement.

 

[dscherck]

May I ask you why the Catholic church does not look to Jesus as the perfect example of obedience to God's will? I ask it this way because you did not mention it in your statement.

Because Jesus IS Lord. Mary however has the honor of being the first Christian, the first follower of Christ. She is a bright example for us to follow. Look at how she was there from the very beginning to the very end. When told that she'd been chosen to bear the Son of God, she didn't question it, she said, "Let it be done to me according to thy will." And she put her faith in Him completely, note at the wedding feast at Cana, she asked Him to intervene and then put her faith in it to be done, telling the servants, "Do whatever he tells you to do."

Of course we should look to Jesus, but that doesn't mean we should ignore other bright examples of how to live lives dedicated to the Lord. Mary is an excellent example of perfect human obedience. Eve's disobedience let sin and death into the world, Mary's obedience brought light and life through Christ into the world.

 

[Canadian36]

I think a lot of this is kinda a pointless argument over the same old issues that divided protestants and catholics in the first place. Debat for the sake of debat nothing more.

 

[cfultz3]

Because Jesus IS Lord. Mary however has the honor of being the first Christian, the first follower of Christ. She is a bright example for us to follow. Look at how she was there from the very beginning to the very end. When told that she'd been chosen to bear the Son of God, she didn't question it, she said, "Let it be done to me according to thy will." And she put her faith in Him completely, note at the wedding feast at Cana, she asked Him to intervene and then put her faith in it to be done, telling the servants, "Do whatever he tells you to do."

Of course we should look to Jesus, but that doesn't mean we should ignore other bright examples of how to live lives dedicated to the Lord. Mary is an excellent example of perfect human obedience. Eve's disobedience let sin and death into the world, Mary's obedience brought light and life through Christ into the world.

In making her co-redemptive in God's salvational plan, then does the Catholic church make her equal to God?

P.S. In that she brought forth the Lord, she is blessed amongst all women, I agree. In that she is an example to follow, inasmuch as Paul was, I agree. But, as to "perfect human obedience", I must say that the man Jesus was the only One who perfectly obeyed. But, if you mean "the carrying out of her righteousness in faith" as an example to follow, like Abraham in his faith, then I agree.

 

[loveme1]

The pagans worshiped isis and her son, and some believe that is who the catholics are praying to under the guise of Yahshua the Messiah's Mother Mary......

There is no hate toward the mislead followers, it is upsetting to see people being deceived, Those people genuinely believe them, and it will not go unpunished...... Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah know the hearts of their people.

There is still time to seek the truth.

And the protesters have also been deceived over time, the evil agenda managed to creep in....

All things come to pass.

Love and Peace in the name of Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.

 

[JaumeJ]

We don't put her up over God. That's what we've been accused of, but we certainly don't do that. We do however honour her as befitting the mother of Our Lord and look to her as an example of perfect obedience to the will of God.

Read carefully, I live in Spain and from north to south and east to west the people pray TO Mary (which she does not appreciate at all), they pray to every saint, they kiss the feet of statues, they give these images jewels and fine clothing, they take them out for walks because they cannot walk themselves. They need to be fixed to their bases lest they fall over. They do not hear, they do not speak they do not smell, and they do not see. The people weep and wail at the sight of versions of each madonna. There are various madonnas with various avocations that compete with each other, actually they are manipulated by the people to appear to move themselves much like a marionette, and much, much more. I see this all of the time here. They spend more time dressing and undressing their so-called saints (dolls) than they do caring for the homeless and poor. I will not take away from the Daughters of Charity who do great work, but like Mother Theresa, they have a constant uphilll battle with the church heirarchy. The list goes on. If one says he sees and does not, his guilt remains beware and seek the will of Yahweh. Worship Yahweh in Yeshua, He is El.

 

[loveme1]

Read carefully, I live in Spain and from north to south and east to west the people pray TO Mary (which she does not appreciate at all), they pray to every saint, they kiss the feet of statues, they give these images jewels and fine clothing, they take them out for walks because they cannot walk themselves. They need to be fixed to their bases lest they fall over. They do not hear, they do not speak they do not smell, and they do not see. The people weep and wail at the sight of versions of each madonna. There are various madonnas with various avocations that compete with each other, actually they are manipulated by the people to appear to move themselves much like a marionette, and much, much more. I see this all of the time here. They spend more time dressing and undressing their so-called saints (dolls) than they do caring for the homeless and poor. I will not take away from the Daughters of Charity who do great work, but like Mother Theresa, they have a constant uphilll battle with the church heirarchy. The list goes on. If one says he sees and does not, his guilt remains beware and seek the will of Yahweh. Worship Yahweh in Yeshua, He is El.

Being in Spain you have witnessed much more than i knew about the day to day behavior, taking them for walks is new to me... must be strange to witness.

 

[JaumeJ]

Being in Spain you have witnessed much more than i knew about the day to day behavior, taking them for walks is new to me... must be strange to witness.

Yes, in procession. The people lugging these enormous frames on which the images are fixed make special movements to make it appear the image is happy, in a hurry, dancing, etc. It can be very quaint if it were not for the horrible deception of the masses.

We all know Yeshua foretold there would be very few faithful when He returns. It is also foretold apostasy would abound, and it does. In Daniel it is written the holy people will be scattered and also defeated by the beast.
Now, those who BELIEVE Yahweh are readily able to see much of this has already taken place. Those who do not see are blind, perhaps even innocent of the oversight, only Yeshua knows for certain. To say these things will not come to pass is calling Yeshua and Yahweh's prophets liars, and in effect, Yahweh, Himself.
Thus, these things must need be so many times when sharing Yahweh's light it is only natural we feel we are beating a dead, soul-less horse, because we are, but for the sake of those entering the jaws of perdition, we must continue endeavoring to get the truth to them. Each soul is precious in the eyes of Yahweh, and the hosts of heaven rejoice for each soul saved, b'shem Yeshua, amen v'emet.

 

[jimsun]

Hi silhouette - Hope all is well with you.
At the risk of over-simplifying the way, what's left of my brain works(!), I've always looked @ each & every faith/following as simply branches of "Head Office".
Indeed having previously travelled the world with a major 'NGO', I'm privileged to have friends/former colleagues of a real mix of faiths & have always enjoyed discussing differing finer points over a meal & drink.
Look forward to chewing the cud with you & will hold you to the meal & drink if/when we get to meet up!
BW;
J+

 

[Dude653]

The way catholocism glorifies the saints is against biblical principles. Th Bible clearly states that no flesh gets glory in the presence of God

 

[systemdown101]

"Misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians." - HUH?

Two or three times a year, some kid in my class says "I'm not a Christian, I'm a Catholic," and then I have to remind them that Catholics ARE Christians. But since they don't seem to understand that, out comes the Venn Diagram of Christianity, with the BIG circle labeled Christianity, with the sub-circles labeled Catholicism and Protestantism within, and the smaller denominations within each and so forth.

My school is predominately Hispanic, and thus mostly Catholic, or at least have a Catholic background, although I wouldn't call many of then practicing Catholics based on the behavior I often see. Apparently they think Protestant = Christian. I'd really like to know where they're getting that idea from.

 

[rainacorn]

From people like those in this forum.

 

[Avinu]

Worship Yahweh. Saint and Mary worship is not of Yahweh. Mary is certainly never going to be pleased with all the catholics trying to raise her above Yahweh. She always listened to her Son when on this earth, and if she listened to her Son so should the catholics.

AMEN brother, not to mention that even pope John Paul 2 raised Mary up to equal deity status to Yeshua. To be so arrogant as to think that he had ANY authority to do so is pure blasphemy to YHVH.

 

[Avinu]

Because Jesus IS Lord. Mary however has the honor of being the first Christian, the first follower of Christ. She is a bright example for us to follow. Look at how she was there from the very beginning to the very end. When told that she'd been chosen to bear the Son of God, she didn't question it, she said, "Let it be done to me according to thy will." And she put her faith in Him completely, note at the wedding feast at Cana, she asked Him to intervene and then put her faith in it to be done, telling the servants, "Do whatever he tells you to do."

Of course we should look to Jesus, but that doesn't mean we should ignore other bright examples of how to live lives dedicated to the Lord. Mary is an excellent example of perfect human obedience. Eve's disobedience let sin and death into the world, Mary's obedience brought light and life through Christ into the world.
__________________

You are absolutely right on here, I agree with you 110%, even Paul said to imitate him because he imitates Messiah. BUT, we are to NEVER pray to them, because that's when it turns to sin. IT IS a sin to pray to anyone accept YHVH through His Son. And scripture is quite clear on this matter.

 

[loveme1]

AMEN brother, not to mention that even pope John Paul 2 raised Mary up to equal deity status to Yeshua. To be so arrogant as to think that he had ANY authority to do so is pure blasphemy to YHVH.

What motives did he have?

 

[A-Omega]

Abc Christianity accepts infant baptism as valid. It's the circumcision of the new covenant. And we know that circumcision was done for adults only as converts, but their children were circumcised about 8 days after birth. Since the majority of first Christians were adult converts, it's natural that we typically see adults baptized. But Paul emphasized the relationship between circumcision and baptism in order to emphasize to the Jews who accepted the gospel the importance of the new covenant. These Jews would understand that their children should be baptized as well. That's why we see whole households baptized, and we have records from within the first century of men who write of how they were baptized as infants. Heck, Polycarp is one of the early Christian leaders we have records of. He learned the gospel directly from the Apostle John and was quite careful to make sure that what he taught was the same as what John taught him. And Polycarp is quite clear that he was baptized as an infant.

None of this has any Biblical basis. Where in the Bible does it speak of baptism having any special power with respect to sin. Baptism is ceremonial. It does not endow any powers, forgiveness or anything mystical on the recipient.

The conflict with Catholics is not with other Christians. it's with the Bible.

For example, can you explain this practice from a biblical standpoint:

I await your Biblical support for this.