lazarus and the rich man is a parable

[cronjecj]

It is interesting, of all the [FONT=&quot]parables[/FONT] Jesus spoke, only one is commonly taught as being literal. What a wonder it is, that such a thing could go unnoticed for so long, and this in the ranks of intelligent people who claim they want the truth. That single parable has become a pervading factor in man's theology. It is a ruse that condemns the vast majority to a never ending realm of burning torment. That ill-applied parable, of course, is the one where [FONT=&quot]"a certain beggar called LAZARUS, who, upon dying found himself in Abraham's bosom, and a certain RICH MAN in torment."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 15:11-31[/FONT]...The [FONT=&quot]firstborn son[/FONT] is typical of the [FONT=&quot]Jewish [/FONT]nation, while [FONT=&quot]the prodigal son[/FONT] is that of the [FONT=&quot]Gentile [/FONT]nations. The [FONT=&quot]Jews[/FONT] are envious of the [FONT=&quot]repentant son [/FONT]who returns to the Father's house. The [FONT=&quot]eldest son [/FONT]is supposed to receive the honor of the fatted calf, the signet ring of the Father's authority, the robe of royalty, and the Father's shoes to walk like Him, etc.; but [FONT=&quot]the younger, the redeemed nations, [/FONT]receive all these things instead. We see the same scenario with [FONT=&quot]Ishmael and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Isaac, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Esau and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jacob[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]and also [FONT=&quot]Joseph[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and his elder brothers[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT] In each case the younger receives the inheritance while the elder resentfully loses it. Hence, [FONT=&quot]the elder son and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the prodigal son[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]Luke 16:1-13[/FONT] ...The [FONT=&quot]unjust steward[/FONT] in these verses speak of the [FONT=&quot]Jews[/FONT]. They wasted the Spiritual goods that God, the rich Master, had trusted to their care. They even wasted the most precious treasure He could have given them -- Jesus -- His own Son. This same parable, it appears, was told in Matthew about the certain rich Householder who planted a vineyard and let it out to husbandmen to care for. Each time He sent servants (the prophets) to see how things were going, they were killed. He then sent His own Son. Thinking they could seize His inheritance, He too was killed (Mat 21:33-42). Jesus concluded that particular parable with a strong proclamation: [FONT=&quot]"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given [/FONT][FONT=&quot]to a nation[/FONT][FONT=&quot] bringing forth the fruits thereof"[/FONT] (Mat 21:43).

[FONT=&quot]Luke 16:19-26[/FONT]...[FONT=&quot]The rich man[/FONT] clothed in [FONT=&quot]purple [/FONT]and [FONT=&quot]fine linen [/FONT]is typical of [FONT=&quot]the kings[/FONT] and [FONT=&quot]priests of God -- Israel; while [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lazarus (whom God aids)[/FONT] represents [FONT=&quot]the Gentiles.[/FONT]

In torment, the rich man cries out to his father Abraham. Notice that he does not cry to God, not to Yahweh, not to Jehovah, and certainly not to Jesus; but he cries out to Abraham -- the father of Israel. He begs for Lazarus to be sent with a drop of water to soothe his tongue
He yearns to have his 2,000 years of scorching pain eased; the pain of scorn and hatred he has suffered under God's hand of judgment. He is told, however, that the gulf is fixed, that neither side can go to the other. This in no way suggests an 'eternal' condition to never be changed. It simply states that those who 'would' cannot cross over on their own. It takes more than human desire for Israel to be relieved from centuries of torment. The Gentilesmust be brought in before the Jews as a whole can be released from judgment. Israel was rich in God, and fared sumptuously, but they squandered their wealth, killed the King's Son, and now they must wait until the proper season. Paul wrote so clearly concerning this:
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" (Rom. 11:25-26, 27-36).



Luke 16:27-31...Lastly, the rich man begged Lazarus to be sent to his brothers to warn them. He was told that they have Moses and the prophets; "Let them hear them." But in desperation he argued, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him. If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though One rose from the dead." And of course, they didn't repent. For One rose from the dead -- JESUS -- and they did not repent, even to this day.



They, therefore, remain in torment. The gulf has been fixed, and this isfor both the Gentiles and for Israel; but it is not forever.To the natural mind it would be the sensible thing to do, to hurry the process, to stop the suffering -- but it won't be. Until the appointed time Israel cannot span the wide chasm, and neither can the Gentiles in Christ cross that fixed gulf and save them. Regardless of how many missionaries are sent to the 'holy land', it will not happen before the time. The Jews are held in unbreakable chains of darkness, and this is by God's decree -- and man cannot circumvent or change it. They will remain locked in darkness until the Sons of God sound the trumpet of freedom, and they hear for the first time the Good News to return unto the Lord. Individuals may cross over as the Lord bids, which is a rarity, but not the nation. For "...Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible"; but praise God, He did not stop there. He then said, "WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" (Mat. 19:26). God certainly "...turns man to destruction; and says, RETURN, YE CHILDREN OF MEN" (Psa. 90:3). Indeed, it is impossible for either the rich man or Lazarus to cross that fixed gulf; but the day will shortly dawn when God will make it possible. Get ready, O ye Sons of God, for your hour to sound the Word of liberty to those across the gulf draws nigh!

 

[jonathanbchristian]

The Bible does not say or teach the things you are teaching. That is a bunch of false doctrine from men. There is proof that the story is literal. Jesus used specific names in the story. We know the lost go to eternal punishment from other verses in the Bible. Who are you to preach that the Jews cannot be saved? Some of the apostles were sent to the Jews specifically.

 

[Laodicea]

I agree it is a parable.

If the story is real then Jesus would have contradicted himself when he said that people are rewarded when he returns.
Matthew 16:27
(27) for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 25:31-33
(31) when the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34
(34) then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, come, ye blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41
(41) then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 22:12
(12) and, behold, i come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[Mark51]

Jesus Christ was speaking to his disciples in the present of the Pharisees and scribes prior to the account at Luke 16:19-31. The Pharisees sneered with contempt at Jesus because they reckoned that they, as the religious rulers, were the only ones entitled to the bosom position of Abraham. In their eyes, the common people did not come into the picture at all. Those rulers said to Jesus in an earlier encounter with him: “We are Abraham’s offspring,” and again: “Our father is Abraham,” and yet again: “We have one Father, God.”-John 8:33, 39, 41.

From this it is evident that the Pharisees considered that Abraham represented God. In this they were right. However, they were wrong in claiming sonship with either Abraham or God. In God’s eyes this relationship is determined, not by fleshly descent, but by one’s disposition and works. As Jesus said to them on that same occasion: “If you are Abraham’s children, do the works of Abraham,” and Jesus also said: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began.” (John 8:39, 44) This preaching by Jesus that exposed the hypocrisy, greed and false teaching of the Jewish clergy caused a change to take place in their lives.-Matthew 15:1-9; 23.

Also, Jesus often taught a lesson by telling a story through the means of parables or illustrations. In this illustration, the rich man well pictures the Jewish clergy who were well provided for with spiritual provisions; who considered themselves children of the kingdom, clothed in purple; who were very self-righteous, wearing fine linen; and who were proud of being Abraham’s offspring. (Matthew 23:27, 28; Romans 3:1, 2; Revelation 19:8) The beggar Lazarus, whose name means “God is helper,” well pictures the Jewish common people, who were despised by the clergy, who because of neglect were spiritually sick and were hungering and thirsting for righteousness, and who appreciated their need of the Great Physician, Christ Jesus.-John 7:49; Matthew 5:6; Mark 2:17.

The death of the rich man and of Lazarus pictured a change taking place in the relative positions of these two classes. This should be no surprise to us because the Bible shows that death can be used symbolically, representing people as dying or having died though still alive, meaning thereby that a a great change in one’s life or course of action. Compare Romans 6:2, 11-13; 7:4-6; Colossians 3:3; 1　Timothy 5:6. A death, or change from former conditions, happened when Jesus fed the Lazarus class spiritually, and they thus came into the favor of the greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the false religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ’s followers after Pentecost forcefully exposed their evil works. (Acts 7:51-57) So this illustration is not literal and does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.

Furthermore, it is not reasonable or Scriptural to believe that a man suffers torment simply because he is rich, wears good clothing and has plenty to eat. It is not Scriptural to believe that one is blessed with heavenly life just because he is a beggar. Jesus said nothing about the rich man’s living a degraded life worthy of “fiery” punishment; the man’s failing was that he did not feed the poor. Further, Jesus said nothing about Lazarus’ doing good things, things that clearly would merit his going to heaven, which is what some churches claim is the meaning of his being taken to Abraham’s bosom. Furthermore, Abraham, like David, was dead and in his grave, so angels literally could not carry Lazarus to his bosom. (Acts 2:29,　34) None of God’s servants had a heavenly reward held out to them before the coming of Christ Jesus; that is why his apostles-even after his resurrection-were looking to an earthly kingdom. (Psalms 45:16; Acts 1:6-8) Besides, Abraham could not have been in heaven in view of Jesus’ words: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man”?(John 3:13) And if the rich man were in a literal fire, surely Lazarus could not benefit him with just a drop of water. This request was for the purpose to get the “Lazarus” class away from a favored position. All of these are figures of speech.

 

[tribesman]

Parable or not. There are other scriptures implying that hell is literal.

Num.26:10, Isa.5:14, Ezk.31:16, Mark 9:45,46, Rev.20:13-15 are some.

Christ alone saves from hell.

 

[IMINJC]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: If the story is real then Jesus would have contradicted himself when he said that people are rewarded when he returns.


There is no contradiction...because no rewards are given hear.

This is not a parable because Jesus quoted a known historical figure who was dead for many years and offered no explanation for it. I believe Jesus...If He said that Abraham spoke these words... then I believe that Abraham spoke these words.

 

[IMINJC]

MARK 51


YOU SAID: Abraham, like David, was dead and in his grave, so angels literally could not carry Lazarus to his bosom.


Well..Jesus would strongly disagree with you. According to Him, Abraham may have been dead as you say, but he was certainly not sleep. Either Abraham actually spoke the words that Jesus said that he spoke or Jesus is a liar. We both know the answer to that question.

Please don't answer "Jesus was not lying...He was telling a parable."....

As if that's some kind of excuse or good reason to say that an actual historical figure said words that he never said. That's still lying.

 

[miktre]

I will never believe Christ used a parable as important as the afterlife in an untruthful non-literal manner because it was "jewish tradition" or whatever reason you want to come up with so they can squeeze it in with what they want the Word to say. Enough said. By reading more and praying we can know and understand our Lord more and realize that He would not teach about the afterlife in a false scenario.
Read more and pray

 

[IMINJC]

miketre


you said: By reading more and praying we can know and understand our Lord more and realize that He would not teach about the afterlife in a false scenario.


And Jesus most certainly would not be so careless and stupid to quote Abraham in a false scenario.

 

[Red33]

There are so many things that people try to read into a parable that it loses its message and practicality and becomes lost or interpreted in any and every way. If an interpretation of a parables loses its meaning, avoid it, and stay true to the truth that the parable is teaching. Parables were given so that some would understand and so that others would not understand. We should be thankful when God does give understanding in our heart concerning these things.

 

[Tombo]

The Rich Man, Lazarus, & the Afterlife

Please listen to this exposition of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke16.
You can read it or click on the audio symbol at the top left of the page to listen to it.
I, personally, found it helpful to listen and read along to get the most out of it.
God bless!!!!

Tom

 

[miktre]

The Rich Man, Lazarus, & the Afterlife

Please listen to this exposition of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke16.
You can read it or click on the audio symbol at the top left of the page to listen to it.
I, personally, found it helpful to listen and read along to get the most out of it.
God bless!!!!

Tom

Don't waste your time heres a quote:

"My own personal conviction is that Jesus used or adapted a popular folktale well-known to His hearers for the purpose of conveying, by a means they would best comprehend and most easily remember, an eternal truth. "

They also go into lengthy claims of Jesus using a pagan tradition of lies to to teach the afterlife. Whats next?

 

[Tombo]

Don't waste your time heres a quote:

"My own personal conviction is that Jesus used or adapted a popular folktale well-known to His hearers for the purpose of conveying, by a means they would best comprehend and most easily remember, an eternal truth. "

They also go into lengthy claims of Jesus using a pagan tradition of lies to to teach the afterlife. Whats next?

Your argument doesn't hold water. Didn't Paul quote pagan philosophers to make a point? If by pagan traditon you mean Jewish stories of the time, then yes, He could well have used them.
It seems to me that you just breezed through the study and didn't listen to the entire thing.


Tom

 

[miktre]

Your argument doesn't hold water. Didn't Paul quote pagan philosophers to make a point? If by pagan traditon you mean Jewish stories of the time, then yes, He could well have used them.
It seems to me that you just breezed through the study and didn't listen to the entire thing.


Tom

Quote from link:
The Pagan Origin of the Legend of the Rich Man and Lazarus
We'll see shortly that the Old Testament taught nothing like the Jewish concept of Hades, and we'll also see that before the intertestamental period, Jews didn't believe any stories like that of the Rich Man and Lazarus.However, before looking at those specific legends, let's notice some general legends about Hades and life after death.







Call it pagan or jewish traditions and have long ridiculous drawn out answer, instead of calling it a teaching of Jesus Christ from the Gospels. Why? Cause one can't force it into the rest of ones doctrines and interpretations.

 

[Tombo]

Quote from link:
The Pagan Origin of the Legend of the Rich Man and Lazarus
We'll see shortly that the Old Testament taught nothing like the Jewish concept of Hades, and we'll also see that before the intertestamental period, Jews didn't believe any stories like that of the Rich Man and Lazarus.However, before looking at those specific legends, let's notice some general legends about Hades and life after death.







Call it pagan or jewish traditions and have long ridiculous drawn out answer, instead of calling it a teaching of Jesus Christ from the Gospels. Why? Cause one can't force it into the rest of ones doctrines and interpretations.

The OT does not teach unending conscious torment of the unsaved. The world sheol simply means pit or grave. It is the place of dead bodies. You would do well to get a concordance and look up the word hell, to see all of the original words that are translated as hell. See what the words really mean and base your conclusions on that.
I can take you through scores of verses in the NT that show the contrast between perishing and having eternal life.
Here are but two examples:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Notice the contrast between perishing and eternal life. If all people have eternal life to either live with God in heaven, or to suffer enending torment in hell, this verse would make no sense.

1 John 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

If no murderer has eternal life abiding in him, how could he be punished forever?

I can show many more verses, but if you go through the Bible and look up hell, eternal life, etc., you will see it all for yourself.

You will not the see the apostle Paul speak anywhere in his letters about the unsaved being tortured forever. He always speaks of them as being destroyed.

God bless.

Tom

 

[Laodicea]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: If the story is real then Jesus would have contradicted himself when he said that people are rewarded when he returns.


There is no contradiction...because no rewards are given hear.

This is not a parable because Jesus quoted a known historical figure who was dead for many years and offered no explanation for it. I believe Jesus...If He said that Abraham spoke these words... then I believe that Abraham spoke these words.

Now you are trying to make it fit by your own interpretation. The parable says this.
Luke 16:22-23 KJV
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

As I said and showed from the Bible that if people go to heaven or hell when they die then the Bible contradicts itself, the Bible does not contradict itself so it is a parable.

Where does it say in this parable that they went to those places at death? Speaking of the beggar it says he was carried by angels.
Matthew 24:31 KJV
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[miktre]

The OT does not teach unending conscious torment of the unsaved. The world sheol simply means pit or grave. It is the place of dead bodies. You would do well to get a concordance and look up the word hell, to see all of the original words that are translated as hell. See what the words really mean and base your conclusions on that.
I can take you through scores of verses in the NT that show the contrast between perishing and having eternal life.
Here are but two examples:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Notice the contrast between perishing and eternal life. If all people have eternal life to either live with God in heaven, or to suffer enending torment in hell, this verse would make no sense.

1 John 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

If no murderer has eternal life abiding in him, how could he be punished forever?

I can show many more verses, but if you go through the Bible and look up hell, eternal life, etc., you will see it all for yourself.

You will not the see the apostle Paul speak anywhere in his letters about the unsaved being tortured forever. He always speaks of them as being destroyed.

God bless.

Tom

Tom
On the topic of the unsaved being tortured, hell and death are destroyed in the eternity. Who is saying they don't get destroyed?
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Don't let this verse confuse you:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There is no night when heaven and earth are one so when it say tormented day and night this means before we enter into the eternity. Then hell and death are destroyed and eternity begins. It really is that simple.

As you read they will be destroyed and there is no more night for them to be tormented in as you can read here Tom:
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.


God Bless

 

[2knowhim]

Amen, Day and Night have to do with the physical realm.
Not Eternity.

But Tom will not receive that, I have tried many times to show him the same thing.

Blessings

 

[2knowhim]

Tom, I have never asked you this before but, I think I will now.

Do you believe that Annihilation is death?

 

[Tombo]

Tom, I have never asked you this before but, I think I will now.

Do you believe that Annihilation is death?

2knowhim, I know very well what you believe. You believe that every single person who has ever lived will ultimately be saved. I have shown you many times how unbiblical that is, yet you persist in it.
I don't see any benefit in going over it anymore with you.


Tom