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Thread: Olive Tree Theology vs Replacement Theology?

  1. #1
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    Default Olive Tree Theology vs Replacement Theology?

    "Olive Tree Theology", (which is what I believe and it is scriptural and meat/line up line and precept upon precept we grow in our understanding) is that Gentiles are "grafted in" to the promises made to the Israelites, which is derived from Romans 11:17-21, and thus there is no real "replacement" happening. Gentiles (those not Jews, ie. House of Israel and/or other nations/peoples) and those of Jews, ie House of Judah, are grafted into the covenants made to Israel (which was given to all 12 tribes/nations) and together they are now treated as "one people of God."


    The New Testament is not a “New” Covenant exactly (more a "renewed covenant", although it being ‘better” than the “Old” Covenant, because they had gone astray and did evil in the sight of the Lord, and failed to keep His Laws and Statues – Torah (instructions).

    Because the Lord gave the Israelites the blessings and the curses to keeping His commandments, sabbaths/convocations and Feasts (which included the old system of sacrificial animal killings and that was done away with when the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD for the Jews, because the House of Israel had already been scattered by the time of Y'shua/Jesus) and they (the ten lost tribes of Israel) failed miserably, God DIVORCED His people and also when Y'shua/Jesus came, He called those Jewish Pharisees hypocrites because they knew the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. When God came in the flesh, as Y’shua (which means Yah’s salvation), Y’shua Messiah/Jesus Christ had to die for the sins of all people. (He came to bring back the spirit of the law in addition to the letter of the law.) When He died, this released the wife to remarry. When Y’shua resurrected, alive and immortal, He now can claim ALL PEOPLE who make themselves ready for the wedding to be His bride. There is no exclusion of any people.

    So the “church” of the New Testament did not replace Israel (See Romans 11:17-21), but became included in the better covenant, which also includes the commandments being kept in the ark of the heart. The ark of the heart is the place now where God’s commandments are kept. No person has the excuse of not keeping His Commandments.

    Jer 3:15-23 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart. In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers. But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me. Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD. A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God. Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.


    The New Testament KJV uses the words “the church” 70 times. Is is no wonder that New Testament only and/or mostly believe in Replacement Theology?
    The truth is in the translation. Let’s take a look at the Greek word translated to “church”.

    G1577

    ἐκκλησία
    ekklēsia
    ek-klay-see'-ah

    From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

    As you can see the “Ekkclsia” is NOT just “THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH BELIEVERS, making just a new assembly”, but includes even the Jewish synagogue.

    The new believers were going to the synagogues on the Sabbath and hearing the Torah Holy Scriptures. When the Torah was opened, it was only read exactly word for word as has been for many thousands of years, since it was given. (When given is a big topic…it includes all the way back to Adam and what God orally spoke/commanded. Even Noah knew what clean and unclean animals where and there was no written Torah.)

    Jas 1:22
    But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    Yes, the new believers where going to the synagogues on the Sabbath and “Hearing the Word/Holy Scriptures/Toarh (instructions).

    When the apostles and Paul were writing and teaching to the new converts to accepting Yah’s salvation (Y’shua) they were all Jewish. Paul, especially was more learned than them all, as He was a rabbi of the Pharisees. He memorized all of the Torah and Paul quoted from it often, as did all the other Disciples and Teachers, since there was no New Testament to quote from as they taught the new believers and need of being fed milk.
    1Co 3:1 -2 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.


    Because the new converts were unfamiliar with the Old Testament, Paul’s teachings are often hard for us to understand in this modern English speaking time. Much, I believe, is from the teachings of “the church”, thousands of different Christian denominations, each taking a slightly different view of the meanings in the New Testament.

    Will discuss what the New Testament writings had to say about keeping the commandments.
    RachelBibleStudent likes this.

  2. #2
    Tombo
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    Default Re: Olive Tree Theology vs Replacement Theology?

    I don't see it as "replacement" theology, but "continuation" theology. All Israel was never true Israel, meaning that most who called themselves Israelites weren't saved. But God always had His remnant in Israel that were true bleivers. The Christian Church today is simply the continuation of the gathering of all of God's people from every nation. There is a remnant chosen by grace from all peoples of the world. There has been, and will be, a remnant saved from the nation of Israel, just like there will be a remnant saved from every other nation. See Romans 11:1-10. Paul speaks in Romans 11:14 of making his fellow Israelites jealous and "thus save some of them." Paul says in Romans 11:26, "and so all Israel will be saved." The word "so" means in this way, or in this manner, all Israel will be saved; i.e., by the gathering of all true believers from all nations, including national Israel. But some people make the mistake of turning the word "so" into the word "then". I have heard people speak of the ingathering of the Gentiles, and then they will say, "and "then" all Israel will be saved"; meaning that all of national Israel will be saved. That is simply not true. God is no respector of persons, He will not show favor and save anyone based on their nationality.
    Anyway, as I've mentioned in another thread, the Israelites were scattered and assimilated into the nations of the world from AD70 until the reforming of the nation in 1948. It would be impossible to establish a pure blood line of Jews/Israelites. Most of the Jews in Israel now came from all over the world, and have bloods from every other nation mixed in them now.
    And as far as Israel ever rebuilding the temple and offering sacrifices again, that could not happen since Christ put an end to sacrifces by the sacrifice of Himself for us. And could you imagine the reaction of the world if modern day Israel built a temple and started sacrificing animals again??? They would be called barbarians, or worse. I don't see modern Israel (who, by the way, is as secular a nation as any other in the world) ever even attempting it. There is no more holiness or seeking after God in Israel than there is in the rest of the world. There is no mass turning of Jews to Jesus as their Messiah. They repudiate Jesus and the message of the Gospel just as much now as they did in Jesus' day.
    We need to keep focused on bringing the Gospel of our Lord jesus Christ to all peoples of the world, including, but not especially, to Israel.
    That is my understnading of it. I know others will disagree, but let us disagree without being disagreeable to one another.
    God bless.

    Tom
    Last edited by Tombo; May 6th, 2012 at 08:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Olive Tree Theology vs Replacement Theology?

    Romans 9:6
    6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
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    Default Re: Olive Tree Theology vs Replacement Theology?

    Romans 9:6-8
    6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
    7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
    8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

    Galatians 3:26-29
    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Galatians 6:15-16
    15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
    16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

    having said that, though... the Bible does not teach "replacement" theology...

    Romans 11:11-12
    11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
    12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

    Ephesians 2:11-22
    11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
    12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
    13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
    14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
    15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
    16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
    17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
    18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
    19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
    20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
    21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
    22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

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    Default Re: Olive Tree Theology vs Replacement Theology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tombo View Post
    I don't see it as "replacement" theology, but "continuation" theology. All Israel was never true Israel, meaning that most who called themselves Israelites weren't saved. But God always had His remnant in Israel that were true bleivers. The Christian Church today is simply the continuation of the gathering of all of God's people from every nation. There is a remnant chosen by grace from all peoples of the world. There has been, and will be, a remnant saved from the nation of Israel, just like there will be a remnant saved from every other nation. See Romans 11:1-10. Paul speaks in Romans 11:14 of making his fellow Israelites jealous and "thus save some of them." Paul says in Romans 11:26, "and so all Israel will be saved." The word "so" means in this way, or in this manner, all Israel will be saved; i.e., by the gathering of all true believers from all nations, including national Israel. But some people make the mistake of turning the word "so" into the word "then". I have heard people speak of the ingathering of the Gentiles, and then they will say, "and "then" all Israel will be saved"; meaning that all of national Israel will be saved. That is simply not true. God is no respector of persons, He will not show favor and save anyone based on their nationality.
    Anyway, as I've mentioned in another thread, the Israelites were scattered and assimilated into the nations of the world from AD70 until the reforming of the nation in 1948. It would be impossible to establish a pure blood line of Jews/Israelites. Most of the Jews in Israel now came from all over the world, and have bloods from every other nation mixed in them now.
    And as far as Israel ever rebuilding the temple and offering sacrifices again, that could not happen since Christ put an end to sacrifces by the sacrifice of Himself for us. And could you imagine the reaction of the world if modern day Israel built a temple and started sacrificing animals again??? They would be called barbarians, or worse. I don't see modern Israel (who, by the way, is as secular a nation as any other in the world) ever even attempting it. There is no more holiness or seeking after God in Israel than there is in the rest of the world. There is no mass turning of Jews to Jesus as their Messiah. They repudiate Jesus and the message of the Gospel just as much now as they did in Jesus' day.
    We need to keep focused on bringing the Gospel of our Lord jesus Christ to all peoples of the world, including, but not especially, to Israel.
    That is my understnading of it. I know others will disagree, but let us disagree without being disagreeable to one another.
    God bless.

    Tom

    Well said. Except that I notice you keep only referring to Jews as though that is the only people mentioned in the Bible. Jews are those who are of the tribe of Judah, Benjamin and half the tribe of Levi. Those are the ones who are now called Jews. True they are also Israelites, but those who are not of the House of Judah are of the House of Israel. They are of the Southern Kingdom while all the other tribes were taken into the Northern Kingdom. In understanding this history made a huge difference in my understanding of the Scriptures.

    There are 5 distinctions I have noted that often get blurred in understanding about “Israel” and reading the Bible with correct understanding.
    1) There is Israel in the Bible that is referring to all 12 Tribes of Jacob/Israel. These are NOT the Jews.
    2) There is ancient Israel that is the House of Israel, that sometimes means the Lost Ten tribes that were taken into captivity in 720 BC by the Assyrians and became The Northern Kingdom (to differentiate it from the Southern Kingdom of Judah.) The Northern Kingdom is a great study in history and how they changed the place of worship, the King who was over them and how they later started migrating to all parts of the world and some like the tribe of Dan, left a trail of everywhere they settled by attaching their name to the lands and rivers and tributaries!! Only Judah, Benjamin and half the Levites made up the Kingdom of Judah. They, all three of them together were later called “Jews”. Also race is interesting study of the Israelites and Jews. I personally believe that the American Native Indians are Israelites, as well as African Americans.
    3) Often times you will find scriptures in the OT that refer to Israel AND to Judah. It is the division of the tribes through captivity that I believe is being referenced there. There is being made a distinction of who the prophet was speaking of - The House of Judah/Southern Kingdom and The House of Israel/Northern Kingdom.
    4) If it just said “Israel”, it may mean all 12 tribes or it may be speaking of Jacob whose name was changed to Israel. But when the scriptures says Judah, it is more than likely referring to Judah, Benjamin and half of the Levites that were taken into captivity into Babylon. It is this distinction that I am emphasizing who are called "Jews".
    5) There is also one more distinction I would like to make that may have some confused. That is the Zionist. This is a political party who have chosen the name Zionist and many Jews are ashamed of the party and do not want to be associated with the party and what they represent.

  6. #6
    texian
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    Default Re: Olive Tree Theology vs Replacement Theology?

    The root of the olive tree has to be Jesus Christ, for if it were "All Israel" of the old covenant, there would be no transformation and no re-making of Israel as shown in the parable of the potter in Jeremiah 18: 1-6. Former Gentiles who join transformed Israel are grafted into Christ and into the Remnant of Israel, that small group of physical Israel who accepted Christ Paul mentions in Romans 11: 5.

    In Luke 13: 6-9, a parable of physical Israel in apostasy as the fig tree, " a certain man," the owner of the vineyard, God the Father, in verse 7 told the "dresser of the vineyard", who is Christ, to cut the fig tree down. But Christ said to the Father," Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it. And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

    Christ himself, the "dresser," came out of eternity to earth to redeem the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15: 24). He pared down Israel first to himself alone, then as his few disciples, then the three thousand on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2: 41), and the entire Remnant of Israel of Romans 11: 5.

    Gentiles are not grafted into the Remnant of Israel reborn in Christ as another body of Christ, the "church." They become part of the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16). They are not grafted into the religion of the Pharisees or into Talmudic Judaism, for there is no salvation in either.




    9.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Olive Tree Theology vs Replacement Theology?

    The Church has taken the promise which was always available to non Isreal. "In you shall all the nations of the world be blessed"


    There were promises made to "natural Israel" which were never made to the church. These covenants are still in effect (not for the church, never was, never will be" and Paul mentions them in romans 11.

    There is a spiritual covenant, and physical covenant. we must separate the two to figure out what paul was talking in chapter 11 concerning Israel being loved for the sake of the fathers.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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