hell and thr Roman church

[Kernwarrior]

Was Hell interduced by the roman church to keep the masses in controll and to make money and inter a spirit of fear in the masse?
.Also the word hell is not found in the greek.
It is slang meaning a scary place also the devil is not in hell/hades it is a place for human souls.
. Remember death and hades are thrown in the lake of fire.

There is no hell the word was mistranslated for sheol,abyss.lake of fire , hades

Gehinna the rubbish pit, bodys of amimals and trash kept burning day and night with sulfer and brimstone. the bodys of thieves and robbers were thrown in to it, it was the worst most horrorably insulting way to a person that was cast into at that time..OK that would be hell at that time and place Jesus needed a visional for the people to understand and that is a very powerful one as no one wanted to be there.

lets the flaming begin. cheers

 

[Densetzu]

I don't think it was a deliberate attempt by the Roman Church to obfuscate the teachings, but a gradual trend towards misinterpretation over the first few centuries.

Granted there is certainly a movement now to hide the truth, but I don't think the early church fathers did it intentionally.

 

[wattie]

If men have been disobedient to God all through history.. going their own way.. glorifying themselves.. loving power and money etc etc..

What is God to do?

If He does nothing.. He doesn't care.
If He condemns the lot-- He has no grace.

But God is of Grace and Truth combined

the truth-- no man is perfect, God is perfect.. therefore there is a seperation between imperfect men and God. Because of men's disrespect of God's boundaries.. God had to create a place for people to go who would not follow Him.. who wanted to be seperate from Him.

This place was not part of God's original creation.. and was only meant for Satan and his minions. So to begin with it was not meant to be for people anyway.

So, if someone continually denies God their whole natural life.. what is God to do?

If He says.. oh that is okay.. you can come to my place anyway.. then He is a weak God and is also disrespecting the person's choice to deny Him.. and that person will be in a place they don't want to be!

Now.. the GRACE part..

God came down to earth in human skin as Jesus.. and sacrificed Himself on the cross so to bridge the gap between imperfect man and perfect God.. to pay for our imperfection.. so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but will have everlasting life.

He didn't have to do this! Man had been rebellious, going there own way.. they didn't deserve this! He would be justified to have left us alone.. and let men be seperated from Him forever...

but He is graceful.. VERY VERY graceful.

SO

1) Hell was not part of God's original creation.. but created out of necessity because men were going there own way and disrespecting His boundaries. It was meant for Satan and his minions.. not people. See Genesis begining-- no hell in that creation!

2) Hell is only for those who reject Jesus' salvation till the day the die--- if someone doesn't want to be with God.. why would He let them be with Him?
See Romans-- 'they are without excuse'

3) Hell is seperation from God.. eternal seperation.. but it is not mythilogical flames.. whips.. slaves and red demons with pitch forks- forget Hollywood's version of Hell!

4) When looking at crime.. when someone murders another.. the sentence isn't given for the duration of the crime.. but the weight of the crime. Now what is the greatest crime possible? Rejecting Jesus' salvation!! What should be the consequence for that? Seperation from Jesus! Why is it eternal seperation? Because of the WEIGHT of the crime.. not the duration.

5) God has also made it incredibly simple to have salvation. All a person needs to do is ask for salvation from Him! They don't have to go through a long series of rituals.. or turn their entire life around to have salvation! It is a FREE GIFT, not by works.. through faith in Jesus. See the book of Ephesians

6) God does not send people who are very young, before the age of knowing right from wrong.. to hell. They are under grace! They go to be with Him if they die before the age of accountability! See David's child who died..

7) God always warns people, either through prophets in the past or through his conviction now.. He does not just let someone go off seperated from Him.. without prompting them of His reality!

8) Greek words for hell from the Strong's concordance:

H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

G86
ᾅδης
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

G5020
ταρταρόω
tartaroō
tar-tar-o'-o
From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

The use of these different words is dependent on the context of the surrounding verse.. where it is used. But just because the Greeks and Hebrews didn't use the word 'hell'-- they still had the conception of a place of everlasting punishment.. eternal torment..place of departed souls.. world of the dead.. pit.. these meanings do not contradict the English.. but even expand on it! Give the world hell from the English more depth when looking at the Greek and Hebrew!

So that is my 2 cents.

Hell was not invented by teh Roman Catholic church.. unless you are prepared to argue they doctored the very earliest scriptures.. which does not fit with historical studies of the reliabilility and trustworthiness of scripture.. OT and NT.

 

[Densetzu]

Well that's the problem--it's not just Hollywood that tells you that there is a fiery torture chamber called hell. It's preached from pulpits.

The Hebrew concept of Sheol was a resting place for the dead; all the dead went there regardless of whether they were righteous.

Hades, Tartaros, etc, were not originally part of Jewish teachings but came from Greek Mythology.

Gehenna was a foul place of destruction, not eternal torture.

Early Christian ideas about the afterlife were clearly influenced by all these concepts, so it's hard to say what Jesus' words about the afterlife were really trying to teach us.

 

[MahogonySnail]

How do you explain Jesus's parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

How do you explain Jesus's parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

As a parable, a very complex parable relating to Esau and Jacob. It has nothing at all to do with people being roasted alive in a burning oven for eternity while heaven dwellers lie in bosom of Abraham looking on gleefully, that would be wrong interpretation and that is why Jesus talks in parables, you cannot understand what He is talking about unless you are guided by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth reveals the true hidden message in the Parable.

 

[MahogonySnail]

The point is, the rich man was in torment. And asked for water to quench his thirst. Why would Jesus have said that if it werent true?

 

[kujo313]

Jesus taught of a place of torment, a lake of fire. The Roman Catholic Church made up a set of "rules" on how to avoid it.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

The point is, the rich man was in torment. And asked for water to quench his thirst. Why would Jesus have said that if it werent true?

'Snail,

Again, a Parable is an allegorical story, allegory - is the figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another.

So there is no 'rich man' who is thirsty and would like a drink of water and there is no 'poor man' resting blissfully in the bosom of old Abraham, if we were to take that literally it is going to be a bit difficult to fit all us in Abraham's bosom, and I am sure that Abraham dosen't want to spend eternity with all his children crammed on top of his chest!

Jesus often disguises His message, so that profane people do not understand, Jesus actually comes to divide, 'think not that I come to bring peace' etc. An ignorant person without guidence of the Holy Spirit is going to interpret the Parable as being 'poor man= good, rich man= bad, poor man now in heaven and very happy, rich man now in hot burning place and very thirsty!' But the Christian who is lead by the Holy Spirit into the revelation of the word reads something completely different the same as what Jesus' sheep did when they heard Him tell His Parable, it is meant to divide people.

The Parable of Lazarus and the rich man is related to the conflict between the decendants of Esau and Jacob, it has nothing to do with people being roasted alive over hot coals for infinity years, nothing at all.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Esau and Jacob, you mean Jews and Israelites?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Esau and Jacob, you mean Jews and Israelites?

God called Jacob Israel, and Esau He called Edom.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Maybe just maybe you interpret the whole bible via your warped views of Jews and Israelites. Because the parable of the rich man and lazarus was nothing to do with Esau or Edom or anyone. It is about the love of money, and a couple of other things. First time I've heard it meaning conflict between Esau and Jacob. I doubt that is from the Spirit, rather from spirit of error.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Maybe just maybe you interpret the whole bible via your warped views of Jews and Israelites. Because the parable of the rich man and lazarus was nothing to do with Esau or Edom or anyone. It is about the love of money, and a couple of other things. First time I've heard it meaning conflict between Esau and Jacob. I doubt that is from the Spirit, rather from spirit of error.

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire...which I commanded them not, nor should they speaketh it, neither came that into My mind." Jeremiah 19:5

There are lots of alters that are built to Baal in this world, and when they read the word they read what is in their minds.

"I pray thee therefore, father, that, thou wouldest send him to my father's house? For I have five brethren."

Think about that 'Snail, why 'five brethren'? who is the 'rich man's father? Every word counts, especially when the Lord Jesus is speaking.

"...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in Hell (Hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments..."

The Greek word basanos, here translated "torments" #931 - means "through the motion of going to the bottom" from where we derive the word "base"!

The rich man has been abased (i.e. to bring down low.)

"I pray therefore, father, that thou wouldest send to my fathers house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment (basanos) - lest they become debased as I am now.

Oh Esau, what have you done?????

"Now these are the generations of Esau, who is edom." Genesis 36:1

5 generations, from the daughters of Canaan. 5.

Genesis 36:8, 36:19, 36:21, 36:43

"...If ye were Abraham's Children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39


Do you know what Lazarus means, it means "without help".

Actually to fully interpret this verse would fill many pages, so I will just stop now and God willing someone might understand and seek further truth on their own "without help"!!!!

 

[MahogonySnail]

Boy it sure pays to check everything you claim Cup-of-Ruin. Most of what you say is wrong.
Lazarus means "God has helped". Not "without help".

I suggest to fully interpret that parable is to totally IGNORE everything you have to say. And look up the writings of experts.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Boy it sure pays to check everything you claim Cup-of-Ruin. Most of what you say is wrong.
Lazarus means "God has helped". Not "without help".

I suggest to fully interpret that parable is to totally IGNORE everything you have to say. And look up the writings of experts.

No 'Snail Elazar is the Hebrew root, You need the NT Greek;

Young's Literal Concordance to the Bible - Lazarus: without help

Try studying some Greek, 'Strong's' is OK but a bit elementry.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Boy it sure pays to check everything you claim Cup-of-Ruin. Most of what you say is wrong.
Lazarus means "God has helped". Not "without help".

I suggest to fully interpret that parable is to totally IGNORE everything you have to say. And look up the writings of experts.

Oh dear me, 'Snail you actually quite funny sometimes! LOL

 

[MahogonySnail]

glad you got a laugh out of it mate

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

glad you got a laugh out of it mate

Yea and I don't laugh much believe it or not. Actually you made an honest mistake because 'Strong's' is probably misleading in that case, but the compilers of 'Strong's' are not aware of the relevance and probably didn't think anything of it. Robert Young's entire translation is good as well, actually that translation is very relevant to this thread because how he translates the words 'everlasting' and 'eternal' in relation to Sheol and Hades.

Young's Literal Translation of the Bible

Really relevant to this thread.

 

[MahogonySnail]

good to know.

 

[Densetzu]

1.) Some believe that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus was not originally told by Jesus, but rather something Luke found or came up with, and attributed to him. It fits with Luke's emphasis on concern for the poor, and actually names a character, something that I don't think Jesus ever did in any other parable.

2.) The Greek word translated 'torment' in the parable generally refers to mental anguish or dread. The man is not currently being tormented by flames, but rather is dreading a future event--his eventual judgment by the fires.